Ok, how bad is an OC really? I just got done with forum-tag with somebody who decided that my OC was crap and told me to post anywhere but FF.net. Here is the link to the post exchange:

http://www.fanfiction.net/topic/1344/6687605/1/

Now I understand that there is a difference between an OC and a Mary Sue, and i'm taking pains to try and avoid such a character. But it seems that there is a whole lot of hostility against OC characters. But why do so many people hate them? Don't you have to have OCs just in the nature of story telling? Or does everyone want Saturday morning cartoon villains and plots. Personally I hate most cartoons from before mid 90's for those kinds of story telling conventions. Its literally painful for me to watch them now.

So what's your take? Where, when, and how should OCs be used?

There is nothing wrong with an OC per se. All characters in the original series start off as OC's. Of course, some fan-fiction authors who do okay with the original characters aren't very good at creating a decent new character, but that's not a fault with the concept of an OC itself. Many good fan-fiction stories have characters in them which were created for that story.

The real problem - generally speaking, there are no absolutes - is when your OC is either a self-insert or a Mary Sue. The OC should not take over the story, he should be supporting cast only. He should definitely not have all of the answers. He shouldn't be yourself, either blatantly or in disguise - most intelligent readers have zero interest in reading a story featuring the author's wish fulfillment.

The Forgotten Realms series has good patronage, despite being authorial wish fulfillment (Elminster).

The best way to do an OC is to make them a real person with flaws. I can't think of any off hand that are 'universal' but you should be able to find some that'll fit the character.

Hmm, that sentence may not have come out exactly as I intended. I haven't read any of the Forgotten Realms works, so I can't comment on them. Admittedly, many stories involve wish fulfillment to some degree or other. What I meant to say is that, in my opinion, there is not usually much interest in reading an author's wish fulfillment about himself, as a person taking part in the story.

I agree I just wanted to point out that there were some exceptions...

Oh, you said most? Sorry, misread you.

Ok, but what about an OC who is strong enough to take on some of the NWC? For instance a sword and gun toting girl? How powerful is to powerful in the realm of OCs when it comes to the Ranma 'verse?

It's impossible to make absolute pronouncements one way or the other. It depends on your skill at character creation and storytelling. For example, Neon-Ronin introduced a powerful major character in his story The Truth and the Tempest. He managed to make it work, and it was a fairly good story.

That being said, I think it is usually better to avoid bringing guns into a Ranma story unless it's an alternate universe in which the cast characters are also able to use guns. I think it is usually better to avoid creating powerful characters (NWC-level) which are on the side of the good guys. There are exceptions, depending on the story you are telling and your skill at doing so. But you should probably think long and hard about doing otherwise, because most of your potential readers will be looking for a story about the Ranma cast, and you'll have an uphill battle convincing them to be interested in a story featuring your uber-powerful added character.

Now if the powerful OC is a bad guy, that's different. People will be much more accepting of a story where Ranma, possibly with the others, faces a challenge in defeating someone.

I agree with MZephyr, but I also felt like adding that the problem with other characters is that people hope to a read a stories about the characters they know. People don't know your character, and really much rather want to read a story about Ukyo, Ryoga, Shampoo and so on, they know them.

That doens't mean you cannot include your own characters. it has been done on many occasions, and really rather good. Bliss for example introduced a new character, that one fic where Ranma goes to College (digital knight - in script style) introduces a whole army of new characters, one that even manages to defeat Ranma, and does it really quite good.

the trick is, as MSzephyr says, to give them flaws. The character ,in the story where Ranma goes to college, that defeats Ranma is a drunk and only beats Ranma when he's drunk. for the rest he's quite an arse and has limited luck with the girls. if you want to make someone as strong as Ranma give him a good reason to be as strong. a bad example is Terms of Engagement. it's not that one of the american girls there succeeds in semi-beating Ranma, it's the fact that there is no explanation given. Ranma had to give up an awful lot to become where he is now. someone doesn't get as good without giving up as much, so if someone is as strong, or stronger, make sure you give a reason before hand, or foreshadow that there is one (at least, that what I'd do)

and of course, don't make him the main character. people want to read about Ranma, not about your character

I guess my problem is that my two OCs arn't quite as familiar to me as the NWC is to me. I guess proof readers are a good way to prevent an OC takeover right?

My biggest question is that of my OC Dani being to powerful. Rachel can summon magic and it can be powerful, but it drains her so mch that she would rather not use it. She uses a gun, and she is quite good with it to the point of being a marksman. Only with handguns though. She can speak Chinese and Japanese, her Chinese though is as good as Shampoo's Japanese. She also can't read either language.

But Dani is something else. She can speak and write Japanese fluently. She can use various firearms with almost military skill and precision. I'm debating her use of a katana. She usually is armed in some manner, either a holdout pistol or throwing knives. She has been to high school and isn't dumb, but isn't super intelligent. Her drawbacks include a psycho training regiment as a child, trining from an ex-special forces gang leader, and surviving on the streets. She can act sociable to people, but rather do without them. Oh, and she is a pre-op transexual which makes her life hell. Is this to powerful?

Dani was Rachel's character in her fic. She was meant to be powerful because of how Rachel's story originally was meant to play out. But with Rachel now inside her own fic, events are changing. But I want to avoid the trap of a mary sue. Dani has to be tough enough to at least take on Shampoo, needs characteristics to blend into Japanese society on the visual level, and has to be a transexual. I think I have all those in a reasonable fashion, what do you all think?

Proofreaders are always a good idea, regardless.

You have introduced a gun using character in a Ranma 1/2 story. Not necessarily irredeemable, but strike 1.

You have a character which sounds like you intend her to have martial arts skills on the NWC level (you mention that she can take on Shampoo). At the same time, you say she was trained by a gang leader. So it seems unlikely she has been trained heavily in martial arts from the time she could walk, as the martial artists of Nerima presumably were, yet she's supposed to be as good as them. Strike 2.

You have an author sucked into a story, reducing Ranma and company to fictional characters in a story within the context of your story. Strike three and out. For that matter, this one gets you ejected from the game.

I understand that introducing guns into the Ranma 'verse is a risky move. But Rachel isn't a martial artist in the least. Maybe some self defense, but most of her battle training she got from her father and involves her using handguns. Dani using guns I feel would be a natural offshoot of her being involved in a gang.

You got the second point slightly wrong, she wasn't taught martial arts by the gang leader, but by her grandmother for her entire childhood. She practices ninjitsu, which from my research is a more survivalist kind of martial arts. A whole "anything is a weapon" style. This training is why she was able to survive on the streets as a kid, and then gets picked up by the gang leader. The why of her training is a major plot point, along with her grandmother not only encouraging Dani to dress like a girl but to enforce it as well.

For the last point, I just want to make it clear that the author isn't me. Rachel is another OC who just happens to know more about the characters then she lets on. Her interaction with the NWC is at best tenuous at first. She simply does not want to accept that what is happening to her is real. I think any normal person thrust into the world of Ranma no matter how big the fan would feel the same. Slowly she comes to accept that she is there, and that she might be stuck there forever. Again, with a normal person, this would be a bit to take in and no sane person could do it quickly if they were not used to such events.

Now as for her overshadowing the cast, she has her place in the story and at first plays the part mostly as an observer. While she does tag along on the first adventure, which results in grave consequences for her, mostly she stays in the background at first. Even when she does get involved, like the first time, it usually is because of her ethics. As a student becoming a teacher myself, if anyone threatened my students I would pull out the figurative big guns to protect them. Rachel acts the same way.

The problem now is that your character's both an excellent marksman as well as an martial artist (I'm a bit confused here. so Rachel doesn't know MA, but Dani, thanks to her granny does?), and she combined these with following school. it might minimize the cast's own abilities who in some way had to give up a lot to get where they are now. one can question Ukyo's learning methods, but both Ranma and Shampoo are disciplined who are taught by capable martial artists (Genma's methods might be questionable, but he is a good martial artist).

not to talk down on what you can learn on the streets but I believe Ranma's and Shampoo's method are more productive.

at the moment it does sound a bit like it might be a bit annoying.

Reeks of bad OC, it does. Making good OCs isn't a true game of logic, it's more art, however, I'll make up a list for you.

Do they fit into their environment? If it's a Rurouni Kenshin fic, then your Space Marine's going to be just a little out of place. In addition, this applies to the character's outlooks and personality as well. Bitter, bitter cynics have no place in Ranma 1/2.

Do they fit into the powerscale? If you have Son Goku waltzing around the Trigun Universe, shit's gonna be more than a little lopsided. Note, this also tackles the first type of Mary Sue, a Powerhouse.

Do they have supernatural foresight? If your OC can predict the fucking future consistently, as if he has a copy of the god damn manga stashed in his shoe, then it's a bad, bad second type of Mary Sue, a Predicter.

Are they super-fix-its? If your OC is absolutely, positively perfect for fixing all of your character's problems, then it's also a Mary Sue, regardless of it's power or prediction abilities. Third type of Mary Sue, what I like to call a Swiss Army Sue.

Do they have the charisma of a Drunken Sex God? If everyone and their mother falls in love with this guy or gal, it's also going to be a bad, bad OC, more often than not, regardless of who actually gets enamoured, they will likely be entirely OoC while doing it.

Do they hog the Camera 24/7? If they have more screen time then everyone else combined, then you know you've got a screen hog, these are extremely annoying, as they tear the spotlight away from the canon characters of the series.

Granted, you can skirt around any of these and still have a good, if not terrific Original Character of your own, but the closer you get the more skill you have to have over controlling them.

Well, at the moment i've revealed all that I can without giving everything in the story away. Though I think i'll tweak Dani a bit more. So now I guess now all I can do is try to write the best story I can produce. This means hopefully i'll be needing proofreaders soon. How do people usually get them?

As I posted in the other thread, I think the OC being horribly bad should be intentional. It's an author getting stuck in her own story with her own OC. So she wrote the OC horribly. This should become known to her over the course of the story. In fact, I'd suggest that Rachel generally grows to hate Dani or at least be incredibly annoyed by her. If I were writing a story like this, I'd make the OC eventually become a villain, personally. I'd basically have her get out of control and force the Insert to essentially realize how badly they designed the character. The only way you can make it acceptable to have an OC be that ridiculous is if you play off it, making her terrible design part of the plot.

Funny how you mention that Ryo-wolf, the more I thought of the plot the more I was thinking of that. Thank you for the great idea. Though I think I might tone her down on the education department. She is still smart, but not as book smart. Like the others pointed out, to excell in one area means to suffer in another. Even villains should follow this rule to an extent.

I skimmed over this and the other thread, so my answer will be pretty general, but

I've always thought all this "OC's have to be bad" stuff was hogwash. I've put myself through several litmus tests for a few story situations, comic book situations, etc. for OCs/SIs and I consistently fail them. If with information about ME, a REAL LIFE HUMAN BEING WITH REAL FLAWS fails these tests, then how the hell can a fictional character be expected to pass? Granted, I'm an exceptionally rare type of person myself, but I don't think it's unreasonable to have a character who can figure things out with a simple glance or two, have all/most the girls/guys falling after them etc. etc. that most people seem to think is a problem.

Stuff like being naturally talented at languages, martial arts, math, strategy, art... damn near everything, guessing what's going to happen in the near future, etc... that actually happens in real life, so why not in fiction?

A real life person who failed a litmus test was uber talented at language(knew english fluently, learned another one to near fluency in half the time it should have taken), math(doesn't study ever and always gets A's in pre-calculus), not bad at martial arts and art, plainly handsome, and able to learn new skills very quickly. So this person couldn't ever write a story about themselves, especially if they happen to have a tragic past or are dissatisfied with their "perfect" life.

That aside, one of the things I can point out is that having all these good traits would do for an OC is give them depth. If an overpowered OC came into Nerima and started slapping Ranma around, not too many people would exactly be very happy with it. A story centered around this idea, where Ranma trains like crazy to beat this new OC... but loses every time they fight, or maybe wins every one out of ten fights. Would that be such a horrible idea? Someone who Ranma can't beat no matter what he tries? How would this change Ranma and the relationships between his friends? How would it affect how he thought of others, like Ryouga or Akane? The fact that this is EXACTLY what happened when Ranma came to town is often ignored.

It's okay if it's a DBZ crossover and Cell comes to Earth then decimates Ranma, but if an OC with 1/100000th of Cells' power comes and does so, it's downright criminal. What?

There is no such thing as a 'best', there will always be something better. Better than Ranma is the OC, better than the OC is someone else, etc. etc. It goes on infinitely. The problem a lot of people seem to have is that they can't accept the author's OC is better than Ranma, even though Taro, Herb, and Saffron all fit that description before Ranma beat them. This is just the one that Ranma doesn't beat, that's all. The OC doesn't have to be an enemy for it to be interesting.

That's just life; you can't win them all.

I could come up with a few example OCs who fit this profile of being able to consistently beat Ranma.

A person who's a little older than Ranma, and has been training his/her entire life in similar situations. You might say, "But how could someone enter such a situation?" To this I say, "Oh please, just pull something out of your ass. That's what Takahashi did for the entire manga. Instead of a phoenix from china, this person's greatest conquest was a demonic half human half ram type monster from europe." Came(escaped his/her normal life) to Nerima to teach PE at Furinkan because there was a job opening and life has gotten bothersome. Basically, Canon Ranma VS. "Someone who fights how Ranma would at age 25". Guess who's gonna win?

Someone Ranma's age, who's lead an even harder life. S'not impossible. I quote Hatake Kakashi, "In this world, there are people who are stronger than me, and younger than you."

Of course, the OC should probably fit into Ranma 1/2 personality wise, or with whatever tone you're going for the story. A lot of people say that Ranma fanfiction shouldn't every be totally different from the mood of canon, but I've read and enjoyed stories that were completely off base with the canon, tone wise. SERIOUS BUSINESS RANMA ain't that bad.

Now, it's different if the OC comes to Nerima just for the sake of beating Ranma and taking his girls, especially if they have no reason to be there and just don't fit. Sixteen year old John Baker from Shitty Highschool in Los Angeles, California, who looks just like Ranma except has blonde hair and a blue shirt (not red!), and has no reason to be in Japan whatsoever who joins Ranma's class in Furinkan high and starts attracting attention from every one of Ranma's suitors and rivals within five seconds... simply has no business existing.

EDIT: After seeing the last post from Kein, I noticed "to excell in one area means to suffer in another"

That's not neccesarily true. It might make an OC more tolerable, but it's not a must. And OC can still be perfect, and acceptable. But you couldn't treat a god OC the same way you would a normal OC. A god OC for one, would need a really developed background, that, even if you don't deliver it to the readers, is understood.

For example, an ageless immortal slider who is as strong as thirteen Gokus and can eat stars for snacks happens upon this particular Nerima (canon Ranma 1/2) and finds it amusing. This OC can nerf themselves to fit in easily, just hang around, or just cause all sorts of mischief... in essence, act like Xellos did in Slayers Next before it was revealed what he really was. Of course, this OC might be delegated to being a background character while Ranma and co. try to wade through the crap he puts them through, but that wouldn't mean that he doesn't exist as a perfect OC.

Very nicely put Roy.

OC in principle are fine, they just typically have the one of several typical flaws:

The mary sue, which everyone knows. Basically it's the faultless, nor near faultless character. They're annoying.

The overpowered character. Basically, the guy there just to be uber and show everybody how uber he is. Again annoying. Okay to start a villain in this mode, but not generally a positive character.

The self-insert. Never really read self inserts, but I'm guessing it's just the nature of these that bug people.

And finally, the fic-take over'ers, those characters that outshine the Ranma portion of the story. People generally read Ranma fanfics for Ranma characters, not to read about some OC who just happens to occasional interact with Ranma cast (still, done right, I could even see this working, it is just hard to do right).

Mostly, I try to stick to supporting OCs, rather than ones more central, but no doubt about it, they are hard to pull of right.

Me and Roy JUST said this! He even wrapped a pretty bow around his, and mine was basically a straight breakdown!

Ok, one side has everyone telling me to do these 'litmus tests' and another telling me that its ok for an OC to be slightly more 'perfect' then these tests allow. *scratches her head* I guess the short of it is to just write the story and tweak the characters in the first few chapters by using proof readers. It all depends on what and how you are trying to write the OC into the plot, to bad there isn't some sort of "Writing OC's for Dummies" out there. ;)

Litmus tests are basically useless, in my opinion.

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