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mystladyTopic: 1st debate: Follow the Bunny Plot Rather an old and sensitive issue/debate on the lovable, popular Sailor Moon character naming Usagi/Serena Tsukino in all Sailor Moon Crossover fiction.1. What makes this character so popular to write? Alot of writers tend to use Usagi/Serena more because of her child-like/naive persona and makes it so special, she isn't hard to write. In one ways, I do see the great admiration for this 14 year old crybaby from the first season until she matured later in the series. 2. It's the destiny thing? It's hard to break the old taboo when it comes to certain pairings like UsagixMamoru/DarienxSerena. I try to be open-minded but in a way, if you break them up... Certain situations won't exist like Sailor Moon R (Crystal Tokyo), Sailor Moon S, Sailor Moon Super S and the final Sailor Star season. Not to mention, the annoying nitwit won't be born LOL. (Rini/Chibi-Usa) for that matter. The alluring about them was the first season knowing that they had a love/hate relationship going on until the end, they find out they *were* an item/soulmates in the past. 3. Superheroine doesn't need a sidekick? Every superhero is gotta have some kind of sidekick to back them up... By all means, Sailor Moon *is* the strongest of all but why all betrayal crap that I see in the past fanfics? Evidently, Sailor Moon does need her friends for her to survive in a battle and I've seen them worked like a great team. One of Serena's strongest qualities is for her to make great friends |
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Liquid IceI'm addressing number 3;3. The reason for all that betrayal crap is called plot bunny. XD I think most people who like Usagi can't exactly forget Mamoru breaking up with her for such a stupid reason (and I'm not going to lie, I think it's the most stupidest reason I've ever seen) or Rei being mean, so you can't blame them. Nothing like trying to practice sweet revenge. I'm one of the guilty party here but I've long past that. XD But I agree, one of Usagi's strongest quality is her ability to make friends so easily through all that flaws so while it may seem ridiculous that those betrayal stories still exists or even existed in the first place, nothing like writing your own SM story to get that annoyance out after seeing those certain episodes. |
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I hate fucking UsagiYou know what? You sound like you're taking on her side... I personally and will devotedly hate her with a passion. I know the show is about her. 100% or more, she gets the screen time and less developed characterization on her supposedly sidekicks, the sailor senshi. My *main* issues with her. 1. The frightening Mary Sue Usagi/Serena, the uber queen/perfectionist that is crawling in the section right now. Sure, we've been guilty of such crimes writing a less than perfect of any tv show characters. I can't imagine her turning into a cold, calculated person like Heero Yuy from Gundam Wing. 2. The dumb, old jerk Mamoru/Darien portrayed in fanfics. No, I hate to break it to you. Mamoru and Usagi are soulmates in the past. The only reason that he dumped her was because in the Sailor Moon R season, he was overly concern for her and not wanting her to get involved while he was having those disturbing dreams and it seemed to me at the time, the mission was more complicated now that their little kid from the future showed up in the past. King Endymion was the man behind those disturbing visions that Mamoru saw in his dream. He only wanted to test Mamoru's UNDYING devotion to Usagi! And oh yeah, it'd be great to see Usagi frockling to every hot guy she's sees and jumped right into it. Talk about showing her true affections! 3. Oh her so called friends backstabbing behind her back. Oh sure, great excuse since they ARE so loyal to their princess and sacrificing their life for her pathetic existence. That's pretty much sums everything up... I don't have a life outside since why do I even bother coming up with an excuse with long explanation my true love for Usagi. ::snort:: | #3 Dec 16th 2005, 10:00pm | |
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MasterMillerLITE#2 has always been strange, as has #3...I can understand splitting Serena/Usagi and Darien/Mamoru for the sake of plot, but if one is going to do so, at least it should be original. There are too many cases in which he is portrayed as a cheating, evil, abusive lover who doesn't deserve to be with Serena. Considering the fact that he is possibly one of the most loyal characters in the entire show (and his name means "protector" in Japanese, IIRC), it's hard to believe anything like that would happen. I don't recall it being implied through the series that he was a playboy (although other women were attracted to him), so it boggles the mind. I think writers take his PLAYFUL teasing of Serena as some type of excuse to make him bad. Even when he wasn't with her, Darien never really took his jabs too far, and if he did, he often felt bad about it. Perhaps writers also include his SMR moments where he was trying to stay away from Serena. Yeah, if I recall, he was doing it to protect her (so he thought), not because he enjoyed it. Even the whole "Serena/Usagi goes to another dimension and falls in love because Darien/Mamoru is dead" has been done way too many times. She was incredibly loyal and loving towards him, yet writers rid of that through the deus ex machina of Pluto or some ghost (usually Serenity or the Senshi), who end up telling her its alright for her to start sleeping with the main character. I think that the girl will be pretty upset if people started telling her that. I would envision Serena doing everything she could -- even if others told her it was impossible -- to bring her lover back. To be fair, there are some more original versions of this, but it's starting to become more and more widespread. As you said, mystlady, without the two being together, entire parts of the series would never exist. That's why screwing around with their relationship could cause time paradoxes and other nasty things. Sorry for the mini-rant, but I just had this on my mind. See ya around! |
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Lone-wolf-of-EgyptI think shes okay, although i prefer Rei and Mako But Usagi has her moments. Although her crying is annoying. Get up and move on. Ra have mercy on her soul. |
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MasterMillerLITEI think shes okay, although i prefer Rei and Mako But Usagi has her moments. Although her crying is annoying. Get up and move on. Ra have mercy on her soul.Er, her crying can be somewhat of a pain, but it's usually for comical effect (if that's what you're referencing to). In a tight situation, Usagi/Serena usually takes on a more mature personality. | #6 Dec 19th 2005, 12:59pm | |
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Kochou-himeOkay--prepare for opinion 1) People like to write about Usagi because she's like YOU (boys, don't take gender literally here), she's normal, she gets bad grades (you all have earned at least one at one point), she complains/whines about things (don't even tell me you don't), she messes stuff up sometimes...she gets scared...etc... she isn't PERFECT like the other girls seemingly are. But even though she isn't a perfection..she still has accomplished some amazing things, she's incredibly brave and loyal when she has to be and even though the other girls can't be discredited, because they are important, she always comes up with the power and the strength to save them all... 2)Destiny; Schmestiny. What would YOU do if someone came to you and told you that THIS would be your future and THIS was how you were going to live your life taking all control completely out of your hands. Here comes my defense. In the Matrix (MasterMILLERLITE is gonna love this) it is revealed to Neo that the oracle tells Neo only what he needs to know to suceed in whatever he's supposed to do. Well, was that glimpse of some future Usagi was told only what she needed to know? Did that mean that it was actually going to happen that way? At the end of the anime it never actually happens does it? It's just implied, right? #2- In Dragonball Z, Trunks comes to the past and tells Goku what will happen in the future. He tells him NOT to tell his parents of his birth to them because it MIGHT NOT HAPPEN if he did...Usagi and Mamoru knew of the birth of Chibi-Usa- did that risk it not happening? Goku and the gang are also able to CHANGE the future, therefore making the future, destiny, not set in stone. 3)I agree, I generally don't like the whole betrayal thing. But only because it's overused, the purpose of a fanfiction is the manipulation of characters to make a story. Totally changing everyones' personalities makes the story kind of pointless, but revealing some unknown characteristics (made up) about one or a few characters can give a story a new twist. | #7 Dec 22nd 2005, 9:09pm . Edited Dec 22nd 2005, 9:18pm | |
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MasterMillerLITEDid I mention that you're now the coolest person in the universe, Kochou-hime?To expand on your point, Neo asks why the Oracle hid things from him. He quickly realizes that he wasn't ready to learn the full truth. I think that's what you were talking about. It also brings up a valid question: which future was Usagi looking at? Was it the one she knew about, or the one she didn't know about? TIME PARADOX! I also agree with the point that most people like Usagi because she's the closest thing to normal when compared to the other girls. We can relate to her more than the others, who have at least one extrodinary, stand out skill. Usagi's gifts aren't as apparent as the others', but her abilities usually shine in a tight spot. Ideally, all of us would like to have that kind of ability, perhaps more than being a genius or having fantastic beauty. |
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agoraphobiaThis is a reply to Kochou-hime's opinion. 1. First of all when you say that Usagi is like normal people she's not. She's not normal because normal people don't grow up to be pretty much the Queen of the whole Universe. It’s true that when she didn’t know what was going to happen to her she might have been just like anyone else, but the point where you are wrong is that while she might not be perfect her life is: She has a family, a loving boyfriend and a bright future as a powerful Queen. Something also that you don’t seem to get is that the Senshi never chose to be near to perfect, in fact while Usagi had a happy normal life growing up most of the Senshi had to endure a lot of pain which seemed to push them into their perfection. Rei for example only became her calm collected self, as portrayed in the manga, because she has had an awful past with her mother dieing when she was younger, her father pretty much disowning her, a man she gave her heart to broke it in pieces when he decided to shadow her father’s foot steps as a politician, and then to top it all off she is doomed to never fall in love like Usagi has because as her duty as a Senshi. This happened to pretty much all of the other Senshi as well, but nothing as drastic ever really happened to Usagi did it? Though I’m sure Usagi never intended for any of this to happen to her beloved Senshi that’s why she seems more ‘normal’. 2. Now this was something I could sympathies with only because at first it seemed like Usagi couldn’t handle everything, but then again the future turned out right didn’t it? Once they defeated the Black Moon family and stuff Crystal Tokyo turned out just like planed didn’t it? It became peaceful once again so somewhere in the line Usagi must have come to reason and got hold of that oh so uncontrollable power or else the whole galaxy would have been destroyed long ago. The other thing is that time can never be altered though it might seem like it. I’m not sure if you have ever heard this, but all things happen for a reason, whether it is for the better or not. Time can not be changed though there is a moment in everyone’s life when they wish they could. Usagi seemed to come to terms with this and let everything happen naturally such as the birth of Chibi-Usa because if it was never to happen than how could she come from the future to stay with Usagi if she never existed in their future? 3. This last part I totally agree with you the whole betrayal is way over used! I mean come on ALL of the Senshi pledged their chastity to Princess Serenity and would never for ay reason betray her. But yes this is Fan fiction and people are free to write how ever they want. This was fun! ^_^ Mystlady you need to update soon! |
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Kochou-himeRound' and round' we go: my response to Deaths.Bloody.Rose's opinion:1) You're right about the fact that after all is said and done she is no longer "normal". But the whole intriguing idea is: "What would happen if a normal girl was thrown into this prophecy that she would be a great hero and one day the greatest Queen and ruler of the world?" Would a normal girl fail? Or would she transcend to this level of greatness with all her normalities in her way. The transition isn't as easy as you seem to suggeest; she didn't go from being a silly carefree girl to greatness over night. Reincarnation or not; in the beginning, Usagi was a normal girl. Her life is perfect? How is anyone's life perfect? Last time I checked her life didn't seem all that perfect when her young daughter had to travel to the past in an attempt to save her. You never got to really know truly what Neo Queen Serenity's life was like, you only saw a glimpse in a chasm of time. And life cannot be defined as a still portrait as lovely as that may seem. I also never claimed that the other salior soldiers were perfect (seemingly so, yes), or that their being perfect was easy. The point I was trying to make is that Usagi is indeed different from them; different in the fact that as just "Usagi" she had none of the amazing skills that her closest friends and guardians seemed to have because there are very few in the real world who do posess such qualities. To sum it up, Usagi the girl was average with all her heritage and future comings set aside. 2) I don't understand what you're basing your argument on in this passage. The last episode of Sailor Moon didn't show Usagi as the Neo Queen Serenity of Crystal Tokyo. Sure, in Chibi-Usa's world things were peachy, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the Usagi you saw in every episode ever actually got to that point. Because when two times are split they are forced to be different dimensions, Usagi's past had the full potential to become the 'future' everyone saw of Crystal Tokyo, but with your assessment of what happened your assuming that Usagi has absolutely no control over her future, which is not necessarily true. Yes, I have heard of "everything happens for a reason," but 1)just because you've heard of something doesn't make it true, and 2)Usagi's knowing of her 'future' could have been in the purpose of deterence and not necessarily telling her "this is what you must do; this is what you must be." Where exactly are you getting this information about time being unable to be altered? How was Chibi-Usa able to travel to the past? How can that not be considered as altering time? you're taking one thing from a different time and putting it in another and therefore changing it; making that particular time different. Time travel is complicated anyway, and obviously up to any interpretation since there are no true facts on it. So, how can you argue against the possibilty of one being able to have multiple different options for a future? Like in the movie "The Butterfly Effect" one is able to change their entire future drastically by one absolutely tiny change they've made in their actions; a tiny change(maybe even not so tiny): knowing about your 'supposed future'? 3)I'm glad we've agreed on something :-) | #10 Dec 23rd 2005, 9:18pm . Edited Dec 23rd 2005, 9:23pm | |
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agoraphobiaMan it's not fair! Everyone keeps beating me in replies! Maybe I should just shut up and read. People would probably be much more happier that way. I'm sorry for being a jerk, but I blame it on sugar! Stupid cookies. Yes I confuse even myself sometimes so just please IGNORE me. Happy Holidays! ^_^ May cookies inhabbit the world. | #11 Dec 24th 2005, 12:55pm | |
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Kochou-himeYou're not a jerk, I respect your opinion and enjoy the debate! So say what you will :-)| #12 Dec 24th 2005, 3:34pm | |
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MysticSorcerorThough I agree with your ideas number 3 doesn't follow my thinking, i believe a group is stronger especially in fanfiction terms, it's easier and you can get more character developement.About the destiny, that is true but we never found out where they got to after they'd seen the prince Endymion on the visit to the moon And Usagi is fun to write because she's the typical girl, a bit US in a number of ways, I actually find her somewhat difficult to write | #13 Dec 26th 2005, 1:03pm | |
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Jay FicLoverI agree with Mystic Sorceror: I personally find Usagi hard to write. I mean, SailorMoon/Usagi might be easy ones but that is NOT the case of Neo Queen Serenity/Sailor Cosmos (I choose to think Sailor Cosmos is another incarnation of Princess Serenity, the one that comes after NeoQueen Serenity/Usagi... besides, come on, they can't look so much alike for nothing, they HAVE to be related someway).Anyway, Neo Queen Serenity/Sailor Cosmos is very hard to write cause you actually have to imagine the cry-baby Serena being resposible for the whole world's safety. As much as becoming Queen of the world might sound like the perfect life, I disagree: I can't even keep my own bedroom organized, if I had to rule Earth I would probably go crazy. Besides, the fact that being Queen isn't a Happy Ever After kind of future is shown in the anime and manga versions of the Black Moon Family/Wiseman saga when we learned a great amount of the human popullation left Earth cause they REFUSED to let go of their selfish desires of evil nature. (My opinion in that respect is they weren't OFICIALLY vanished by King Endymion and his wife, but the rest and majority of the human kind, who DID accept to be purified, didn't want them near them after the purification had taken place and either expelled them themselves and/or demanded of their rulers that they were expelled from Earth, or they left on their own once they saw the rest of human kind didn't want them there anymore) I just have to say that when you see your entire planet/kingdom being attacked by outsiders/rebels, your daughter sent to the past to retrieve your past self's help cause your PRESENT-self is suffocating inside a pile of stone, while some evil guy with a crazy thing for being the ruler of everything is obsessed over you and molesting your FIFTEEN year old self... Well, I guess after you hear that "being Queen of the world" doesn't sound like Paradise anymore... It'd be the same as TRULY believing the Queen of England, the King of Spain and the Presidents and First-Ministers all around the world, specially those of countries at war or drawning under the remains of the tsunami are having a power-rollercoaster ride vacation... I SO think NOT. On the other hand, about the destiny issue, I think the whole "Usagi-met-her-future-child-and-the-future-still-didn't-change" thingie is Naoko Takeuchi's way to say the entire show is about two clueless youngsters, Mamoru and Usagi, who aren't perfect themselves, however their love IS; that Endymion a.k.a Mamoru and Serenity a.k.a Usagi's love is so strong that even if they knew all about their future they would STILL choose to be together. That's the greatest way to portray an undying, eternal inconditional love, and I can't help but think that if you guys haven't seen it yet, then you completely misunderstood not only the purpose of the the whole Wiseman saga, but perhaps the entire Sailor Moon series. We may want to disgagree, but the fact that Usagi and Mamoru's future did NOT cHANGE AFTER THEY LEARNED OF IT, is the greatest proof that they're completely, obsessedly inlove with each-other, and will stay together no matter what... because they WANT to... Wasn't Pluto the one that told Usagi that the future wasn't set in stone? Personally, I think the best solution to the affair is the 'h' option mentioned in the "Crystal Tokyo and Rini/ChibiUsa" topic discussion of my "What makes a DBZSM fic worth reading" forum: making ChibiUsa have come from an alternate universe or timeline that can NOT be tampered by the changes in this one: just like the one Future Trunks from DBZ came from. That way, you guys can pair teenager Usagi with whoever you please without totally erasing the future kingdom or the brat. ^_^ | #14 Jan 04th 2006, 9:24am | |
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Tenshi no Nozomi! Wow, what an interesting post, I'm sorry I didn't see it earlier. I don't have a lot of time, so if this post seems haphazard, I apologize. I just want to offer my opinion on the issue since I actually do write Usagi stories.1) I'm not much like Usagi, nor have I ever been, but I think Kouchou's on the right vein with her assessment; Usagi is supposed to be an average girl. But in some ways, she's made out to be this failure, and it almost seems as though the plot is about this girl who really doesn't have much going for her until something truly bizarre happens. She has no real talents--she's not especially smart or athletic. She has lots of bad habits, she's incredibly clumsy... but despite all of this, she's a good person through it all. When her friends need her, she's there; we've seen her willingness to sacrifice her life for them and her willingness to let them forget her so that they can be happy leading normal lives. Mystlady, you make the assertment that Usagi is "easy" to write. I really don't think that's true. Any idiot can slap down a few words on a piece of paper and call it a poem, but it's not necessarily a good one. Characterization, just like anything else, takes quite a bit of effort, even in Usagi's case. It's easy to let her slip off into a stereotypical, 2-d portrayal, just in the same way some stories short change the senshi. The truth is that ANY dynamic character--beit Usagi, Rei, or Attilla the Hun--is more complex on the inside than on the outside, and a good story has to balance a character's actions and words with their thoughts. I've been writing fanfiction for over five years, and I finally feel like I've really managed to get inside Usagi's head. You can laugh and say it shouldn't take long to get in a place so vacuous, but there's a difference between writing Takeuchi's Usagi and the random bland ffn's Usagi and then finding your own particular, nuanced interpretation. ... Erm, I hope I'm not coming off as big-headed or anything. 2) Destiny... Sailor Moon relies on destiny like a crutch; it's one of the silliest, most crippling themes in that series, if you ask me. To a certain extent, I'd say that there's such a thing as fate. But if people have to send dreams and daughters back in time to ensure the path that world takes, I'd say that destiny's not something so easily explained. And who's to say that there's only one "destiny"? If that's true, then why would there ever be a choice? If you're only going to eat chocolate cake or you know for a fact that you're going to hell, why would you try to be good, or why would the waiter offer you ice cream? Choice comes because we don't know the answer; if you knew everything had been decided for you, would you--or anyone else--be happy with that? What if it was a fate you didn't want--not everyone gets to have a happy ending. Maybe these aren't the right examples. But I often think that destiny is too complicated an issue for human's to try to get their heads around, like the big bang. It's just too big, encompasses too much. I think, however, that if we were to all know out "ultimate fates," we would give up under the strain of the system or fight with all our worth to become something else. With such gaps in time between the series and the formation of Crystal Tokyo, who can really say what happens? Yes, there's the assumption, but many a thing in life has been assummed when it would be better to continue to guess. :3 3) Superheroine/sidekick aside, it sickens me that people pit the senshi against each other like that. The senshi have fought and died for each other several times. Obviously they care for each other very deeply; the depths of friendship and love are one of the integral themes centered at the very heart of Sailor Moon. Maybe if the senshi were mislead to attack each other IF they were extensively brainwashed... but honestly, that's quite the stretch. I could see them disagreeing as to what was best for the world/group--they all have different minds and hearts. And I really wouldn't really even argue that Usagi is the strongest of them necessarily. In a way, she, she is, but only because her power is completely different from theirs. The Senshi's magic is used to attack; Usagi's is almost always some kind of healing magic; only her tiara is an offensive magic, and it's really weak at that. The thing is, without Usagi, they couldn't get rid of the enemy, but without the Senshi Usagi wouldn't have a chance of changing the enemy because it would be too strong and it would probably kill her. ^^; I hope my thoughts are of some kind of use here. :3 Thanks for opening up such an interesting discussion, mystlady. | #15 Feb 07th 2006, 3:12pm | |
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Nerf-or-NothingAh, what a wonderful debate topic.Well, all of you have had so many good points... and some bad. I'd like to add my two cents to the jar now. Usagi is not an easy person to write, not in the true form anyway. Many people believe her to be perfect because of so many stories portraying her as such, and a perfect Usagi is easier to write rather then her true manga and/or anime version. The anime and manga version were quite different, actually. The manga portrayed more of the relationships Usagi had with not only the senshi but with Mamoru as well. The manga also had more spot light time for characters other then Usagi. Now comparing the girls to Usagi in a contest of perfection and imperfection isn't possible, they all have their own qualities. Yes, Usagi has a good family and a boyfriend she loves unconditionally. However she isn't viewed as the most beautiful, or smartest or more talented. She doesn't have an exotic look like Rei or an elegant beauty like Michiru. She has the poorest grades of all and isn't as smart as Ami or as wise as Setsuna. She can't play sports like Haruka and Minako and she can't cook anything healthy or pretty like Makoto. Most of the senshi have bad pasts but they do have love. Michiru and Haruka are lovers who have shown in the series, they stick together no matter what. Rini has already had two crushes, one on Helios and the other on that boy in the movie about dreams... Rei has shown interest in the guy who works at her shrine. Ami has had crush(s) and a movie made just for her about her first love! Makoto has an interest in guys, obviously and really likes this one guy in the manga... To say Usagi has never had tragedy like the others is way off. Usagi lost her entire kingdom, her mother sacrificed herself for her daughters happiness. Usagi killed herself with her lovers sword so she would never be apart from him, even if at her own painful death. All around her is the pain of her loved ones, dying for her, sacrificing their dreams for her and it causes her pain. She is the last one standing and she is always the one expected to pull through, to save them all. In the series, both anime and manga she had repeated how she hates fighting, how she things badly of it but does it stop her? No because in the end she must fight to preserve the peace she longs for. She'll fight for the friends and people who depend on her, despite her beliefs against fighting. Jay Ficlover is right about the series being based on love. Usagi fights for peace and for love and justice. Rini never faded when they found out, or when they had their petty and confused fights but she DID fade when one of them was on the brink of death. In the series, Sailor Pluto mentioned time being fragile and messing with it even slightly could alter everything. Ah... I'm not understanding what I'm writing anymore... so tired. Baby crying... so much noise. No sleep. I'm going now. | #16 Jul 10th 2007, 2:01pm | |
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lady pyro1Well, I really don't think you should TRY and sugar coat the idea that the senshi may not have love. Granted they all have their crushes in the show, however in the end, their loyalty is made to Usagi and they don't end up being with a soulmate like Usagi. Not to say they probably aren't content with that, but don't try and say they have experienced love just because of the little crushes they may have had.The only senshi who I can absolutelty agree with you on is Haruka and Michiru , other than that we can't go on saying that a mere crush is love. Secondly, with the whole Usagi having tragedy in her life, I absolutely agree with you.True, her whole kingdom was destroyed however so were the homes of the other scouts as well. This really doesn't make Usagi a any more of a tragedy than the others. Usagi wanted to kill herself to be by Mamoru it was her choice, I think she was content with that because she couldn't live witout him. I still have to say the senshi have the short of of the stick in the series. It is in no way proven that the rest of the senshi find their true love or soulmates by the end of the series like Usagi;their destiny and sole duty is to protect her.In fact they protect each other, but they lose their lives protecting her on countless accounts. As for her mother, it as her choice to sacrifice herself in order to save her daughter and friends. I don't really see how this plays out as a tragedy in her life when she ends up being reborn with a mother that still loves her as her mother would. She still gets to speak with her mother briefly even after she has died. Do the rest of the scouts get this chance? A scout like Rei and Lita weren't fortunate enough to have experienced growing up with a mother, like Usagi. And there is no reference to who their parents are during the Silver Millenium nor do they get to speak with them after being reborn. I must say , Usagi's life is a tragedy but fans shouldn't even try to compare it with the lives of the other scouts. Finally, to say Usagi isn't viewed as the most beautiful is an understatement. Are you speaking in reference to fans or the series? Because most Usagi fans see her as most beautiful.Even though she may not have all the characteristics you stated like the other scouts, she certainly has the most power in the series. Everything seems to center around her. If she has no characteristics like the rest of the scout then why does she end up getting all the attention by the males in the series? For example,all the rest of the girls like Seiya, but his eyes were only on Usagi. Prince Diamond saw her as the most beautiful, and Darien ofcourse saw her in that light as well. I personally don't think she is the most beautiful and obviously you don't either, but to say that for everyone else is wrong.She is not perfect but she ends up with the perfect life in the end of the series. Usagi gets what she wants. Happeiness, her friends back, her lover, and her future secure. I really want to see anyone try and contest that. Can we honeslty say the senshi end up with the perfect life in the end. I doubt it. The ease of writing about a character depends on the person. Some people may find writing Usagi fics easier than writing Setsuna fics. You find much more great Usagi fics than fics centered around other senshi, one because she is popular but I have to say she would probably be the eaiest to write about because her character is the most developed in the series. With other scouts like Setsuna , it is much harder to write about because she isn't as prominent as Serena in the series. None of the other senshi are. Granted the inners get more spotlight than the outers, but comparing to Usagi, none of them really do. We know the most about Usagi's past. With the other senshi we don't. How were their lives in the silver Millenium and how did it affect who they have become? Even in the series, for each senshi, there are hardly any episodes which truly focus on their lives or feelings towards other characters. Since Usagi gets most of the spotlight and we in fact know the most about Usagi, quite frankly , it would be easier to write about her. Not saying she is an easy character to write about but granted, she sure as hell is easier than any of the other senshi. | #17 Nov 03rd 2007, 11:17pm | |
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Tenshi no NozomiI think it's wrong to say that the other scouts haven't experienced "love." There are so many vastly different kinds of love in the world that if you only refer to soul-mate love as important then you cheapen the rest. Love of family and friends is crucial--in fact, I would argue to say that while Usagi's love of Mamoru is by far the showiest and seemingly most important relationship, it's really the "love" of friendship that is the true strength of the series and all of the girls. The fact that they chose to protect Usagi instead of living normal lives where they could get married, live out their respective dreams, and grow old naturally is proof enough.I do not see Usagi as an especially "easy" character to write. At least, certainly not well, not creatively. Sure, she's the one the series focuses in on--so you have the most information. But with all of that information given, it becomes very easy to turn that prop into a crutch, to rely to heavily on canon until the character becomes a poor cookie-cutter shape of herself. Furthermore, because she has been so heavily written in the past, it's difficult to come up with a rendition of her that hasn't been seen a million times before but still rings true to canon source. With any character there is that balancing act--but considering the general backlash that's occurred over the last several years against Usagi's character, the over-written-ness of the character in general... it has it's own difficulties. Let's also not forget that it is easiest to write a character that you can somehow relate to or have lots of practice with. It's all about how you have them built up in your mind. Basically, I can write Usagi worlds better than I ever could for someone like Setsuna or Michiru because I'm not at all like them. And that's okay; for everyone this is going to be an individual thing. It does mean though that in order to get better at other kinds of characters, you have to challenge yourself. I cannot believe you honestly want to compete as to who has the worst "tragedy" post Beryl. I'm just... absolutely stunned. Because as far as I see, this is just a silly, petty argument about who has the worst life, and frankly, I find that pathetic. Let's set the record straight. They ALL lost. They all lost their homes, the people they loved. For the senshi, this was bound to be their families, their homes, their planets. Serenity lost much the same--her home was virtually destroyed, the love of her life kidnapped/killed, and I think it's questionable as to whether or not her mother would have survived the process of rebuilding the Moon; if it took her life to spare them all and send them to the future, it would have taken at least that much to restore life to the moon, not to mention trying to save the various other planets. I don't think any of us can try to imagine what it would be like, psychologically, to have to try to pick up the pieces of what was left of your kingdom and know you failed your whole people, which is what they all would have experienced, being princesses of their own homes. So. Let's not play the "whose life is worst game;" as far as I'm concerned this isn't something that should be made into a contest. Let's talk about beauty. What, in fact, makes any girl beautiful. If we're talking about physicalness, then anyone who believes that Usagi is the most beautiful would have to ammend that; they could never have a "most beautiful" because Usagi and Minako are nearly identical. That's no coincidence, either, since Takeuchi created Minako first, and was quite nearly Sailor Moon herself. None of the scouts are "ugly." I think if you asked any fan which of the scouts is "ugliest" you would get funny looks. What to me truly, really and truly, defines beauty is what's inside. And to me, I love best the things that Usagi represents. If that's wrong, then you can charge and parade me around as a favoritist author. However, I would argue that each person that views these characters has one or two that they take most especially to heart because of the qualities in them that they admire. And I believe that the reason that Diamando and Mamoru fall in love with her so hard is because they see those inner qualities that set Usagi apart from other girls (and I don't mean apart as in "better" but simply apart as in "different"; I'm not trying to place a value statement here). You talk about Usagi getting the perfect life. I have to argue with you here. Usagi spends most, if not all, of the series railing against her fate, especially during the first arc. She doesn't want to be Sailor Moon, and she doesn't want to be the princess--even when it means getting the boy, she says she would prefer the normal life with her family. To me, that's devastatingly important; Usagi and her friends are robbed of the remainder of their childhoods in favor of having to be responsible for the wellfare of literally thousands of people. They're robbed of their intended futures, too--Ami can't become a doctor, Makoto can't be a cook, etc... and for Usagi, she can't just become the simple housewife with a small family and a husband who works 9-5. And it's all her fault. Her sheer presence means that her best friends, people she would and does give her life for, will never be able to live a normal life again. Can you imagine the guilt? And then, to find out it's not going to end there? That you're going to have to become queen of a whole people when you've never even managed to get an A in class... ever? Not only that, but you're going to have to have a kid that half of the time, once you've met her, you can't stand? Not to mention, in order for all of this to happen, you have to basically crystallize yourself and the city, and by the time you're done changing and you're ready to assume your role as Queen, your family--everyone who was normal, that you grew up with and loved--will be dead and gone. And it's still not over--then, you're going to have bad men pursuing you because you are beautiful and powerful; some of them want you for your body (let's be realistic and look at Diamondo's pursuit of NQS as a refusal to take no for an answer--if he got her, it'd be tantamount to rape) and it's going to put everyone you love in danger (again), including your friends and your husband and yourself and your kingdom. But this time it's going to involve your only daughter, too. And it doesn't end there, again. To have to become immortal, to watch the people you love and protected and protected you grow old, eventually, and then at last, die? To watch the world grow old while you stay the way you always are, always will be; for everything familiar to you crumble to dust? How lonely would it be to know that for every friend you make, you will have to watch them grow old, infirm... to be unable to do anything for them? Sailor Moon is an anime, and a shoujo. It fails, however, to realize in any serious way the seriousness of the situation it places its characters in. I think that's because of how old it is; shoujo nowadays--shounen, too--seem more mature in scope. And I think that anyone who's older than 13 and seriously wants to write good fanfiction about this series has to consider the psychological complexities left unexplored; I'm sure that the scouts would have their equal fair share of unhappiness, but let's not count out that this wasn't what Usagi had planned for herself either. Nor is she a selfish enough person to not care how this would affect the people around her. Any normal, real person would be tortured by these things; and I think, in this light... it's far from "perfect." And even then... perfection is subjective, just like beauty. You're right in that there are plenty of option unpursued and motives unspoken and possibilities left unconsidered for the senshi that aren't the case for Usagi. But I disagree with you as to how easy it is to write a character. Like you said--your personality will factor into it. But it's really less about your own personality and more about the ways you can relate to that character's personality that will open them up as a seperate person. I would say that I am, as a whole, unlike Usagi. However? I believe that love and friendship are the most important things in life. I'm not particularly graceful. I'm terrible at sports. This opens her up to me, so that I can begin to see her and understand her. But from there, she is a departure from myself, as any proper character ought to be. If it's not, you're writing a Mary Sue. All of the characters have basic information that should make them accessible and relatable; from there, it becomes a question of whether or not you have the creative talent and experience to create a believable person. I'm also going to venture so far to say that in some ways, it could actually be easier to work with a character who isn't the main character. As an artist, you're going to have to (should want to) take artistic liscence and interpret the character into a rendition that is personal and specific to yourself. Having too much information to adhere to can get in the way of this; it becomes harder to balance between that which is canon and that which is artistic liscence, because the last thing you want to do is write a character who isn't, in fact, the character you claim they are. (The hidden Mary Sue, if you will.) With less to negotiate and to worry about, you have greater freedom. For example: with a destiny not quite so concrete as Usagi's you might be able to negotiate "love" for the senshi as something that's not mutually exclusive to their duties; with Usagi, the author has to find a way to compromise between what's supposed to be in canon and what they want to experiment with, because ignoring that's like trying not to see the elephant in the room. | #18 Nov 04th 2007, 1:16am | |
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Nerf-or-NothingYou.. are my hero! that was just and awe inspiring speech and if I didn't have to get ready, I would so be writing right now. However, I will when I get the time because WOW!As referring to what you mentioned about guilt, it's so true as well as the immortal bit. In the manga, Neo Queen Serenity is faced with the rebirth of Chaos, Sailor Chaos and this senshi destroys everything and everyone she loves. She ascends to an ultimate form called Sailor Cosmos but still loses against Chaos's awesome power and so flees to the past, desguises as an innocent child in order to guide her younger past self to make what she 'thinks' is the right choice, in which the choice is to destroy the cauldron. If she had succeeded in geting Eternal Sailor Moon to destroy it, everyone and everything would die. This is Usagi's far future self... wanting her younger self to destroy everything so the universe could be reborn without evil exsiting. What I'm really curious about is how Neo Queen Serenity becomes Sailor Cosmos. NQS lost the ability to become Sailor Moon and her transformation into Sailor Cosmos was NEVER mentioned, only assumed. In the Japanese Star season of the anime, Minako is persuing her dream to become an Idol. At first she refuses considering they now had a new enemy and she has a duty as a senshi. By now, the Starlights and senshi all know who each other is. Yaten is a judge in the contest and when Minako tries out, he doesn't understand how Minako could be doing the contest at such a times as the Sailor Wars. He even judges her wrongly in disgust that she even does so. When he questions her, she tells him that "BECAUSE" it is a time like this, I should be competing. Usagi told her to live her dream and to try out because it's what she loves about this planet and so on and so forth. Anywho, I'd talk more but I gotta get going. MUAH! | #19 Nov 04th 2007, 4:37am | |
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Tenshi no NozomiI'm glad that it was so amazing; looking back on it, I can see why I shouldn't be allowed to write past 1:30 am, though. I sort of went on a loop at a couple points; forgetting what I'd just said. (Also, this is besides the point--but I do so desperately wish that I had invested in the uncut version of the series before it had gone out of imprint; it's practically impossible to find now--and certainly not at all for less than $100 for season one alone, and I dislike bootlegs with avid passion.)But surprisingly, I have a couple more things I want to add... About Beauty: I mentioned that beauty is a personal, individual thing. But also, physical beauty tends to be a culturally constructed phenomenon. The society we live in tends to inform our values as to what it means to be aesthetically attractive. Consider that what it means to beautiful will vary from a person who is French, American, or Japanese. The "most beautiful" scout, therefor, is going to vary with it's audience... and let's not forget that unless you're Japanese, you're not the original intended audience. There's lots of things that factor into this, ranging from the psychological (personality, intelligence, grace, charm, elegance) and outer beauty (youth, health, symmetry, averageness, complexion, waist-to-hip ratio). Beauty also changes over time--it used to be that overweight people were considered more attractive than slender. About Love: I forgot to say that in the manga, the scouts have more developed love histories. At least, in my opinion. Granted, pairing off Serenity's court to Endymion's guards is a very neat and tidy solution, at the same time because it didn't work out, it sort of makes you wonder how neat and tidy it really was. If we're talking in terms of anime, we're sort of in the dark--however, if you know much of anything about royalty on earth in the middle ages, you'll know that it wasn't uncommon for girls to be engaged and married off by the tender age of 13. About the Silver Millenium: Jay Ficlover mentioned above that it's really tricky to write Serenity/NQS. I wanted to touch on that, too, because she makes some excellent points. I think that there's a lot of questionability about what life in the Silver Millenium was really like for anyone. For one, Serenity and the scouts never recover all of their memories (hardly any) of what their previous lives were like. The story is told to us from the spirit of a woman who has been dead for nigh on 1000 years, and may or may not have a romanticized view of what life was like then. Even if she isn't sugar coating the way things were, there's still no way that she could be privy to all of the goings on of the scouts or Serenity. There's also the problem of what's true and what's actually assumed/projected by the narrator; 'truth' tends to vary from person to person. (If anyone here doesn't understand what I'm saying, a good book to read is Faulkner's As I Lay Dying which is a difficult read and rather depressing but the best example I can think of off the top of my head of what I'm trying to point out.) I'm not trying to say that I believe Queen Serenity was an unreliable narrator... at least, no more than the average person, who will find their opinion skewed by bias, personal feelings, and limited perspective/knowledge. | #20 Nov 04th 2007, 1:48pm | |
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lady pyro1I am sorry but I still have to disagree with you on the perfect life scenario. Granted at first Usagi didn't want to be Sailormoon at first , she just wanted to be a regular human girl, but as time flew by, I have to sa that she like the idea of being Sailormoon and a princess and everything. You are making it out to seem that she still didn't want it till the very end and that is not true. Ok then, maybe Usagi didn't have the perfect life because people have differen meanings of a perfect life, however... I still stick with my arguement that the rest of the scouts did get the short of the stick and they ended up without the life complete life Usagi had in the end.Thoughout te series we see the senshi being lonely without a true soulate or love of their life. When Usagi talks to them about Mamoru I distinclty remember sometimes the other senshi saying they wish thy had a love like that. So I really don't see how you can honestly think that friendship love is just enough. It may have been the basis for the series with the senshi yes, but also the love of a soulmate between Darien and Serena was important as well. In the end , it was he combined love for not only her friends but Darien too, that gave Serena the will to defeat her enemy. Frindship may have been the basis for the series but, I really and honestly believe that there will always be some sort of hole in the hearts of the rest of the scouts. For example, Dariens place in Usagi's heart cannot easily be filled with that of any love of friendship she has for the senshi. In the stars season, although she had the senshi, without hearing from Darien, she was crushed and it always bothered her. Y| #21 Nov 05th 2007, 7:28am | |
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lady pyro1sorry I didn't get to spell check, my keybaord hit submit before I actually could and I was typing in a rush for Japanese class.| #22 Nov 05th 2007, 7:32am | |
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lady pyro1Oh and also you make a point about the Senshi having more developed love lives within the manga with the generals, is that honestly true or is that something the author wanted to touch upon but didn't get the chance, because there is a difference. Is it specifically written in the text that they were? Because I know that some people just go by the picture that was drawn with each of the senshi in the arms of a general.| #23 Nov 05th 2007, 7:36am | |
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lady pyro1One final point I would like to make, I see nothing wrong with the whole tragedy thing, yes "They all lost" as you so rudely and blatantly put it, but do me a favor, and repect other people's arguements. If you find it pathethic then that's you,and I have to say YOU are pathetic if you think so. Because I really don't see anything wrong with people evaluating certain aspects of the show, but you seem to be critiquing these aspects and trying to deem them as whether or not they are worth looking at, which is just plain disrespectful as a fan and a person.| #24 Nov 05th 2007, 7:46am | |
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Tenshi no NozomiI'm quite sorry that you mistook my comment as an attack on you personally. No, I don't believe that you are pathetic. What I find pathetic is the sentiment behind trying to judge who we should throw the biggest pity party for, which is exactly what that line of argument feels like. To me, the whole thing was a tragedy, for all the people involved, and I fail to see how for one person it was a bigger tragedy when essentially they lost all the same things. I think that looking at those events in this light are what's disrespectful; some character's genuine pain and loss is going to be cheapened. How can you, or I, or the Pope, or anyone else for that matter, look at someone who has lost everything and the person next to them who has done the same and say to one "Your pain is obviously greater." All of that said, it's apparent that I've offended you, and I do genuinely apologize for that; it was not my intention.Regarding the issue of love. Yes, I imagine, in some ways, the senshi must be lonely not to have soul mate love. But for that matter, how many people do you know in the real world who can claim to have met their soulmates? How many people, in this day and age, stay married to one person, passionately in love with them, for the entirety of their lives? I believe that in that light, Usagi is the exception. And let's consider, too, that for how much joy the soulmate is supposed to bring, it brought on that much more angst. I would also like to think that regardless to a person finding "true" love that even a crush, when you're in the throws of it, is just as real. If you want to disagree with me as to whether or not it's a perfect life, that's fine... but I think the numerous occasions that Usagi spends genuinely bawling her eyeballs out because, hey, the guy who's supposed to love her doesn't, contests that. And I believe that if Usagi was granted the choice between giving herself and her friends normal, happy lives that she would take it in a heartbeat. I don't see any real evidence that Usagi gets gung-ho about her job, and I think that anyone who sat down and really thought about the logistics of having to become Queen of (essentially) the world might think twice about it. With great power comes great responsibility, and while Usagi always managed to come through in a jam she doesn't enjoy it. And I do believe that there is evidence--perhaps not explicit, in your face, obviousness that we see with Mamoru and Usagi--but it's there. I do find it just a tad ironic that you sound skeptical about the meaning of that picture, though, when manga (and anime, too) rely so heavily on images. | #25 Nov 05th 2007, 10:37am | |
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Tenshi no NozomiI've been thinking a while, and decided to go ahead and do an in-depth reply. I apologize for any repitition that may occur between this and my earlier post.I am sorry but I still have to disagree with you on the perfect life scenario. Granted at first Usagi didn't want to be Sailormoon at first , she just wanted to be a regular human girl, but as time flew by, I have to sa that she like the idea of being Sailormoon and a princess and everything. You are making it out to seem that she still didn't want it till the very end and that is not true. I don't think that there was any point at which Usagi wanted to Sailor Moon. She hates violence, she hates fighting; she's not good at it and she knows. I think that the idea of Princess seemed very romantic at first, but as soon as she realized she was princess she rejected it. And although having the boy attached to the package was nice, I think it was the sugar that made the medicine go down. There were times when she looked back on the Princess she must have been and wanted very much to be like that--but what she really wanted to be was elegant, beautiful, graceful, and courteous, none of which are traits Usagi really exemplifies. I don't think it's too wild an assumption to say that she thought if she could embody those characteristics which appear to make a good princess and a lady of upstanding character, it would somehow make her life easier. I think when you consider the political responsibilities, it becomes even more obvious that while she wouldn't take to it like a duck in water. Now--Usagi did come to accept her fate as Sailor Moon and the Princess. This had more to do with the encouragement of Luna, Artemis, and the scouts though. I doubt that without them she would have found courage enough to do it. Mamoru was never around often enough in the beginning of the series, and I think that her love for her friendsh has greater sway over her than he does. When I say that, I'm thinking back on the episode in which they staged kicking her out of the group and she was genuinely tempted to give up her powers to join the Dark Kingdom so that she could be with Mamoru. But she chose to stay Sailor Moon and to keep fighting because it's what she was supposed to do, consoling herself by psyching herself into believing that they could rescue Mamoru through other means. Ok then, maybe Usagi didn't have the perfect life because people have differen meanings of a perfect life, however... I still stick with my arguement that the rest of the scouts did get the short of the stick and they ended up without the life complete life Usagi had in the end.Thoughout te series we see the senshi being lonely without a true soulate or love of their life. When Usagi talks to them about Mamoru I distinclty remember sometimes the other senshi saying they wish thy had a love like that. So I really don't see how you can honestly think that friendship love is just enough. Not everyone in this world grows up to find their soulmate and get married. Not everyone who gets married stays that way; sometimes you grow up to discover that the person you married isn't who you thought they were, or you simply grow apart. The kind of love that Usagi and Mamoru are supposed to possess as "soulmates" is completely atypical and a very highly idealized kind of situation. Being a person who has several divorced family members who've never remarried, I would like to think that they are happy. And I don't think Mamoru and Usagi's love is "perfect." Sometimes I wonder if it really is "soulmates" or if that's just a convenient label. Because even though they repeatedly meet and they do fall in love each time... I don't know, there feels something false to me in that it was such a 180 from the way they felt for each other before they knew about their past in the Silver Millenium. But that's neither here nor there. I guess whether or not you can define their love as "perfect" depends on how you define perfect. When I think of something that's "perfect" I think of something that is free of pain, without flaw, not just the ideal but surpassing it to an almost uber-utopian quality. To me, neither Usagi's relationship with Mamoru or her life have that kind of status. There's frequently pain, misunderstanding--sometimes agony. I think in some ways if it wasn't for Usagi's persistence, their relationship could have fallen apart. In the end , it was he combined love for not only her friends but Darien too, that gave Serena the will to defeat her enemy. Frindship may have been the basis for the series but, I really and honestly believe that there will always be some sort of hole in the hearts of the rest of the scouts. For example, Dariens place in Usagi's heart cannot easily be filled with that of any love of friendship she has for the senshi. In the stars season, although she had the senshi, without hearing from Darien, she was crushed and it always bothered her. Y That's true. However, I do believe that Usagi could have done it without the incentive of Mamoru. I only say this because the scouts were so integral to her development and acceptance of her fate. I think whether or not the senshi feel a real void depends on themselves--if you define yourself by whether or not you're in a relationship, then yeah, I can see that. I did always wonder, too, why there was the assumption that the scouts never kindled relationships after the beginning of Neo Tokyo. I know that it wasn't covered by the series as an affirmative, but was it ever explicitly stated that they didn't pursue love lives...? I cannot imagine Usagi forbidding any of them from doing so; rather, I think she would encourage them to find happiness in whatever way possible. This, I think, is something of a blessing in disguise for fanfiction writing--it's irritating that the series doesn't address this issue, but it leaves writers the opportunity to fill in the blanks. | #26 Nov 05th 2007, 5:19pm | |
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lady pyro1I think it is quite interesting that you define perfect as something that is free of pain. In my eyes perfect is when you do in fact face hardships, but overcome them in the end. Life without pain just wouldn't be real. Love without pain isn't real. It goes hand in hand.That to me is why Mamoru and Usagi have sort of an ideal relationship. Yes they do go through some harships,and she ends up bawling her eyes out, however that is what comes in the package of a relationship. If there is a marriage without arguement, I believe that it is bound to fail. There has to be some difference or some pain, but the happiniess lies within the ability to overcome that, which makes the love stronger. Personally I don't want a relationship without hardship, because that would just seem unrealistic.That is what made her love between herself ad Mamoru so strong and unbreakable.And I can't believe I am doing this but I am going to recite a quote from which Usagi used herself " Without the bad times, we wouldn't be able to appreciate the good times. That's life and I cherish every living moment."(I can't believe I just did that)| #27 Nov 05th 2007, 6:07pm | |
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lady pyro1Quote: I don't think that there was any point at which Usagi wanted to Sailor Moon. She hates violence, she hates fighting; she's not good at it and she knows. I think that the idea of Princess seemed very romantic at first, but as soon as she realized she was princess she rejected it.Again, I have to reaffirm that to say there is no point to which Usagi wanted to be Sailormoon is too extreme. Although she hates fighting and violence, that is why I say Usagi wanted to be Sailormoon.She wanted to end the fighting and the violence and I honestly believe that to be the sole reason for her realizing that people need Sailormoon and the Sailorscouts in order to end the violence. Sometimes violence is necessary in order to end further violence. This relates to authoritarian regimes. Sometimes when a society makes choices which are too irrational and uncontrolled social mobilization becomes a threat to the rest of society, and strong state or authoritarian regime is necessary, for the greater good.(Referenced to Samuel Huntington "Political Order and Decay)In conclusion, to say Usagi never wanted to become Sailormoon is way too extreme. If that is the case then, she would have never been happy with her job. In this world, people who don't like something aren't happy. Usagi loved protecting the innocent. That became her passion, and along with that, she had this liking for showing people the light. She would always try to make the bad guys become good guys and see that to continue fighting was wrong. Thus she would fight for what she believed was right. Fighting doesn't necessarily mean physical violence. She fought for what she believed in, and she would use violence when necessary in order to convey that. That is what made Usagi Sailormoon and to say she didn't like the idea of her job and making villains like the Amazon quartet, or the Dark Moon sisters become good people or fighting to protect the innocent would be irrational to me.It was who she was destined to be.She grew to accept it and make it her own. I respect your view, it made me look at things from another perspective but I have to disagree with that. | #28 Nov 05th 2007, 6:52pm | |
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lady pyro1Quote:can you, or I, or the Pope, or anyone else for that matter, look at someone who has lost everything and the person next to them who has done the same and say to one "Your pain is obviously greater." Although you may have a point with that, it doesn't mean it is irrational to do so.I have to vouch for that because I am faced with it all the time pertaining to Slavery and the Holocaust. College professors try to compare the two all the time. Which I think you can't do , but it still happens and there is nothing wrong with it. People do it all the time. Which is what makes the world so interesting. Educated scholars have different perspectives on which victims were affected the most. That doesn't make it wrong or disrespectful to do so. I really don't see why you think it is, but it's your view and that's cool.That's what having an intelligent conversation is all about. Therefore, the idea itself isn't disrespectful, but the way people make their points may come out as disrespectful, which is what you did. I have looked past that, I really don't care. But I just wanted to reflect the way you went about doing it in sort of an ignorant manner . It was just shocking to me at the time. However, that is how I feel about the whole tragedy thing, and it seems like we can go on about it for decades, but that is what makes a forum interesting. To see different perspectives, from different people. I could provide so much proof on how tragic situations are being compared to all the time, but that would take too much of my time, which I really don't have , because Japanese seems to be doing that rather effectively right now. | #29 Nov 05th 2007, 7:11pm | |
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lady pyro1Quote:Yes, I imagine, in some ways, the senshi must be lonely not to have soul mate love. But for that matter, how many people do you know in the real world who can claim to have met their soulmates? How many people, in this day and age, stay married to one person, passionately in love with them, for the entirety of their lives? I believe that in that light, Usagi is the exception. And let's consider, too, that for how much joy the soulmate is supposed to bring, it brought on that much more angst. I would also like to think that regardless to a person finding "true" love that even a crush, when you're in the throws of it, is just as real.I really don't see the point you are trying to make here. If a person is married , yet the marriage ends up falling apart , that doesn't necessarily mean that the marriage was based on true love in the first place. In alot of cases, it isn't, while in some cases it is. Alot of the marriages that don't last in soceiety isn't based on the traditional values. People marry for money, pregnancy, fame, etc. That doesn't classify as true love. I also find that people tend to confuse Love and a crush to often, and that is another major reason as to why marriages fail. People don't give it enough time, people can't say that they would actually DIE for a crush . It is real, but don't make t seem that it is to the same extent as you may be reflecting, because it isn't. It is some of the same people who have divorced, that can effectively tell you the difference between a crush and love. Being in love and having a crush just isn't the same thing.Both teens and adults make that mistake too often, which ends in heartache and pain.But that's ok because "If life doesn't hurt sometimes , then you are not living it correctly." The only problem is that people aren't learing from these mistakes. It is just repetitive. There is nothing wrong with a relationship brining angst sometimes, that just makes it real and that is something that is necessary in a marriage and relationship. I think I explain this in a previous response so I am not going to just be redundant and repeat myself.You made a statement about Usagi being the exception and the only one at that. That is such an important point because she was, and that is why I say that she ended up better off.Usagi seems to be the exception. That was a good point, I have to express my gratitude for that.She was the only one with that hole filled by the end of the series, she was the exception. Now I know alot of people who haven't found their soulmates yet. Darn, personally I haven't, but that's okay. Like Serena I may have my all my girlfriends who are there for me and who cheer me up, but they can't warm a bed at night,hahaha. On a serious note they can't. That is what I think the senshi experience. But hey that is just my opinion. There are some who are content with that. I am content with that. When the time comes it will happen, but that still DOESN'T erase the hole that is there. "Everybody needs somebody"(That was sooooo cliche, but my brain is too tired to think about anything else right now)People may say otherwise but, that to me is just denial, and the sooner people face that the better off I think they will be. Everyone has had a desire for companionship before in their lifetime. We are only human, so that is perfectl normal. But like I said, to say that one hasn't or hasn't had that hole in their heart without it would just e denial. Some may be independent , and that may be true. But one can still be independent with a so called "soul-mate" and those are the people who will always have that "What -if " question at the back of their minds because they have yet to experience it. | #30 Nov 05th 2007, 7:40pm | |
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Tenshi no NozomiThe point that I'm trying to make is that there are lots of relationships that are based on love but fall apart. That's the way my parents' was, at least, and although alot of the reasons that you mentioned are also key--people do get married for the wrong reasons, and it's both terrible and almost innevitable when they fall apart--but there are alot of people who think they've found "true love" and then discover... it's not.| #31 Nov 05th 2007, 8:06pm | |
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Tenshi no NozomiAh! No wonder we've been going around in circles; we have different definitions. :D My idea of "perfect" is something that is quasi-unreal, the kind of romance posed for cameras in Hollywood and expressed in storybooks, a love that is unatainable because it asks people to fail to recognize fault. Your definition of "perfect" is an ideal, but to me, something like that is aspirable to, as opposed to a fairytale romance where the prince lifts the princess off her feet and whisks her into the glorious sunset. (That's a very trite, extremely blatant example--but it gets the point across). I think a relationship without hardship is something unreasonable to want, and if it is what a person wants... they're never going to be happy. I don't necessarily enjoy pain, but I know that it's a realistic part of life, and I don't think it's off the mark at all to say that it makes the highs that much more worth savoring. | #32 Nov 05th 2007, 8:13pm | |
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Tenshi no NozomiI think that when we try to weigh sorrows against each other, we make a greivious error. I don't think that the holocaust or slavery are anything alike, excepting in the facts that they were horrible and they destroyed peoples' lives. I think it's a dumb idea, because all it can possibly lead to is resentment. There never will be a "wrong" or "right" answer, just people who get frustrated because someone's pain and death is being cheapened. Even if people are debating tragedies and who has it worse, that doesn't mean a person should. All kinds of people do things they shouldn't, so using tradition as an excuse to do it doesn't really fly. If my point of view felt disrespectful to you, I have already apologized that it came across that way; I don't necessarily feel that way I expressed myself (the way I intended to come across) was rude or ignorant. I'm not someone who's going to beat around the push about something I feel opinionated about. I still stand behind what I said--I do believe that it's a petty track to go down. All that I can see it leading to are more hard feelings and arguments as to who's got it worse, and bitter feelings seeping into fiction. I don't believe that the characters would sit around complaining and crying about it (unless maybe they were exceptionally drunk); they're too strong willed and big-hearted to. An idea can be just as disrespectful to a person as the way it's argued. For example, if I were to claim that the Holocaust never happened. There are plenty of people who would tell you regardless of how I argued that, it would be incredibly disrespectful and ignorant. | #33 Nov 05th 2007, 8:28pm | |
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Tenshi no NozomiI should say, though, that I don't see these differences in opinion being reconciled. It has been an interesting, thought provoking discussion, though; for that much I thank you for talking with me. I think, though, that I'm going to leave it at this, at least for now. I have too much reading to do for my 400 level Women's Studies and American Lit (not to mention studying for Japanese and Logic) to warrant spending as much time as I've spent over the past two days discussing all of this. I mean, it's nice every once and a while, but real life is making demands, and so... thanks for the interesting debate. :3| #34 Nov 05th 2007, 10:13pm | |
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Nerf-or-NothingWow, after being gone for just a few days I come to see my email horribly overloaded, the majority from this very forum.First I want to say, so there is no misunderstandings, that I will not be back in this specific thread because I realise after this there will be more back and forth over what I'm going to explain. Lady Pyro1, I can see very cleary you are NOT a Usagi fan. We get that. I see you even trying to disprove FACTS just so you can get your point about the senshi suffering more then Usagi and such. Don't deny it, all anyone has to do it read through all the posts and it is, very clearly, crystal clear actually, that you don't like Usagi. I have no problem with that and in fact I tend to usually have a favorite in every series, however just because I have a favorite doesn't mean I'll hate other characters because as I've come to learn every small detail adds up to the bigger picture. I love all the characters of Sailor Moon, non senshi definately included but Usagi has, is and will always be my number one favorite. I respect all authors/fans even if Usagi isn't their favorite. What I can NOT respect is when authors/fans bash a character in chats(I could care less if it's in a story, creative licsence in fanfiction is fine with me.) or try and make facts into fiction just to prove a point. Now, Perfect is a term that refers to great things where grief and struggle isn't even a factor. If you say Usagi has a "perfect" life you would be wrong. She does have greif. Simple as that. You CANNOT deny it and if you do, then you need to understand just what perfect truly means. Now if you said, "Usagi has a better life." That would be a better term than perfect and there is no ifs or buts because perfect is what perfect is. In some religions, people refer to God as the only perfect being. A perfect life would be paradise where no pain or grief is. Notice I said SOME religions. Not all are as so. LISTEN CLOSELY EVERYONE because you might be happy to know this. Now, the original make of Sailor Moon was a basic spin-off of Codename: Sailor V. If you notice, when a title has a characters name in it, it's mostly going to be about THAT character. Sailor Moon... revolves around Sailor Moon. Naoko Takeuchi is now REMMAKING Sailor Moon and I actually think it might be done... Now with her characters, she has affirmed that she wished she had expanded on the characters and more importantly, on her villians personalitys. And I quote. "I wish I had given the villians more depth as the anime had done." end quote. The new manga has added pages, new art style and extras. This new manga, however is not printed in the English language. Tenshi no Nozomi, you mentioned Sailor Moon hard to find. That's because it is no longer being printed in the English language and all being sold are leftovers from old factories or being resold by previous owners. This is because Naoko Takeuchi herself and the Japanese companies who helped print it and make an anime out of it are in a copyright fight and so that is why Sailor Moon is no longer in print. The old title was called Beautiful Soldiers: Sailor Moon for the manga. New title is called Pretty Gaurdian: Sailor Moon for the manga and is released in Korea. The new manga has influences from the anime and from the TV Live Action series. Like the title, for instances and Sailor Jupiter now has a belt with a rose orb from the live Action and some things from the anime as well. ALSO THE SENSHI DO HAVE ROMANCES IN THE FUTURE! These were not highly eloborated on in EITHER series because sadly, it's not about them and it isn't about the future. The manga is about a girl, Sailor Moon and her life, her love and the people around her. Sailor Moon is also a very romantic manga and it shows how even threw death, rebirth and struggle, love has a way and that's more then one type of love. Since the manga is ABOUT Sailor Moon, of course Naoko is showing Usagi's love of family, love of friends and love of romance. In the manga, Codename Sailor: V she was showing the same things for Minako but she ended the romance for Minako when she decided to go further into a new manga, Sailor Moon. Now to the romances is the future. In the anime it's said only about Usagi's future and of course we see the future of the senshi being in the palace and doing their duty as such. We here them talk about their futures ALL the time. Did we EVER hear that those futures could NOT be a reality? Of course not. That means most likely they could still live out their dreams and find romance. In one point in the manga it is said NQS can only have one child. NOT FOR THE MANGA VERSION! In the manga we see the senshi in their princess dresses meaning, they were not always senshi 24/7. So the same could go for the future Crystal Tokyo, having to be senshi and protect the Queen and diplomatic stuff but have their own lives as well. The anime never shows that. In the parallel comic of Sailor Moon, the senshi have children and wonderful husbands and each has a little girl who becomes the new senshi and Usagi's second child, Kousagi becomes Parallel Sailor Moon. I don't even want to touch the "senshi suffered more then Usagi" because quite frankly the Manga and Anime was revolved around Sailor Moon herself but all of them suffered equally like Nozomi mentions. And I notice most of your bases is on the North American version since your saying "Serena, Darien, Scouts." Hehe, Sorry but I hate the term scouts because it isn't an actual translation. They called them Sailor Scouts because when North America originally heard about Sailor Moon and wanted to introduce it to America,they were going to actually REMAKE the manga. Now this remake would have been alot of money and was part Live-Action/Cartoon/3-D. at first it sounded cool but when you see the trailer... Just search in Youtube or any video sight for "Saban Moon" and you'll see how bad it would have been. In the "Saban Moon" video, the senshi ride on small sail boats that also fly. Since the project would have cost so much though, they decided to just stick with the original Anime and merely cut scenes and dub it. You'll know why they didn't use Sailor Soldier for the traslation fully after the Saban Moon preview but to say it a few quick words... Because the title Sailor Soldier would not be suitable for kids so they went with the more acceptable, less violant term of Scout. Like a boy scout type name or a girl cookie scout. Yeaahhh... Also, a lot of dub scenes were cut and the script was changed. | #35 Nov 06th 2007, 4:19am | |
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lady pyro1To nerf-or nothing. I will not deny , that I do not like Usagi, because I don't and I never tried to deny that I didn't.Since the beginning of the show I didn't. As to perfect, I remember putting in a quote saying " ok then , maybe Usagi did not end up with a perfect life." But I will not argue aymore about it with you, because I feel that I already had a good debate with another writer on this forum. However, no matter what you say, perfect is not what perfect is. Everyone has their own definition of perfect. I really hope that you will learn to accept that. Thank you for the info on the new Sailormoon series though, it was really interesting, and with that, I leave this forum.| #36 Nov 06th 2007, 10:21am | |
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annoni-noALSO THE SENSHI DO HAVE ROMANCES IN THE FUTURE! Where is this in canon? Neither the original manga nor the anime showed or implied that the senshi were involved with anyone romantically in the future Crystal Tokyo. It wasn't said categorically that they weren't, but you can't turn that lack into a definitive positive. (Actually, in the manga, it's rather likely they don't. There was the whole Kato Ace arc in Sailor V where he told Minako that she would never find romance because to her, Serenity would always come first. Yaten emphasized the same thing to both Minako and Rei in the Stars arc, and they just smiled and said they didn't need boys. Plus, there was that part of the Dream arc where Rei had just been attacked by Tiger's Eye, and she remembered that she and the other Gaurdian Senshi had taken a vow of chastity back in the Silver Millenium.... The anime is still open, though.) In the live action PGSM, Makoto was romantically involved with Motoki, and their relationship was solid and lasting enough for marriage (which I believe was set up in the wedding special with the bouquet toss). However, (and I will confess that my knowledge of PGSM comes almost entirely from summaries) none of the other senshi were shown to have serious romantic interests. So again, the possibility is there, but it isn't canon. In regards to Parallel Sailor Moon... wasn't the entire premise that the story takes place in a parallel universe to the actual manga, and thus completely irrelevant when we are discussing the original storyline (or anime)? | #37 Nov 12th 2007, 11:57am | |
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