**shivers**

Mamoru Shiba... Usagi's infamous boyfriend.

Just the name sent a shivers down to UsagixMamoru haters onto their skin...

The very idea of getting those two hitch is unthinkable...

An OOC-ness, evil Mamoru Shiba is causing a great heartbreak to Usagi...

A liar, cheater and two-timer...

It's hard to imagine for a GENTLE, LOVING AND DEVOTED boyfriend/fiance/husband Mamoru proving his undying love for his princess.

And yet, he was willing to sacrifice his life just to save her life.

And that's true love, folks!

I do have a huge issue seeing Usagi with other guys that makes her unfaithful to her boyfriend. Considering, she's supposed to be the devoted type.

and second of all he might have been willing to sacrifice his life at times, but he's also tried to take hers before as well. If the end of the first season didn't send a shiver down you rback.... I just don't know what to say

The thing with the locket and stuff was that it was theirs and it symbolized their love for each other in the Silver Millennium and he did end up remembering who she was and how much he loved her. In fact when Zoisite hit him with the pointed crystal of hers isn’t it when he was dieing that Usagi was able to call the gems and form the Silver Crystal? Isn’t that what made her remember who she was in her past life ad how much she really loved him? So don’t beat up on Sprite of the Dead because she got a few things confused you are the one that’s got most things wrong.

The thing with the locket and stuff was that it was theirs and it symbolized their love for each other in the Silver Millennium and he did end up remembering who she was and how much he loved her. In fact when Zoisite hit him with the pointed crystal of hers isn’t it when he was dieing that Usagi was able to call the gems and form the Silver Crystal? Isn’t that what made her remember who she was in her past life ad how much she really loved him? So don’t beat up on Sprite of the Dead because she got a few things confused you are the one that’s got most things wrong.

Sailor Moon had reached the entrance to the Dark Kingdom. She was being watched by Queen Beryl who created an energy ball and snatched Sailor Moon from the entrance and brought her to the heart of the Dark Kingdom. The disoriented Sailor Moon watched as a light revealed the presence of Queen Beryl. Beryl welcomed the "Princess" to her kingdom and introduced her to Beryl's loyal servant...Endymion.

Endymion attacked and Sailor Moon dodged, then she used the "Moon Healing Escalation" to restore Mamoru's memory...except it didn't work. Queen Beryl gloated that Queen Metallia had completely cleansed Mamoru's memory. Endymion tossed Sailor Moon a black rose with a comment: "Sailor Moon...die.". The rose stem expanded and tied up Sailor Moon and tried to fry her. Sailor Moon screamed and called out for Mamoru-san. The rose disintegrated and Endymion picked Sailor Moon up by the neck and proceeded to blast her with energy.

Queen Beryl finally called a halt to the torture and Endymion tossed Sailor Moon aside. She landed next to the Moon Stick, but didn't have the strength or will to grab it. Queen Beryl ordered Endymion to deliver the final blow, but Sailor Moon had one more weapon...

The Moon Tiara caught Endymion in his midsection and he collapsed. Queen Metallia's power forced Endymion to his feet, sword upraised. He was presented with the sight of the kneeling Sailor Moon holding the music box out to him. Unwillingly, he touched it and a backlash flooded him with energy. Memories flooded him, including a vision of the young Mamoru-san being conforted by Usagi-chan.

.... as you can see, the only time the locket could work, was *after* she attacked Endymion. In any case, he hurt and tried to kill her, yes, he was brainwashed, but if Usagi hadn't used the tiara on him, she'd have died.

And I disagree with the idea that because of a past life of a different incarnation (because, Serenity and Usagi are different) that Usagi would be suddenly and deeply in love with Mamoru. The manga and anime are *quite* different. Like I've mentioned before, the anime pales incredibly to the manga in this sense. You can see the love in the manga, the anime is like a switch being turned on. There's no buildup of the relationship

And to add to the topic...

In fact, I never really disliked Mamoru. My first fic was a pairing of MamoruxUsagi. I was only exposed to the anime at the time so I didn't really notice the flaws. Then I got a hold of the manga, and I got old enough to analyze each of them. I must concur with Sailor Ronin again, the manga is far superior. It was in the manga that Naoko Takeuchi had a little more power, I believe. I mean, we did have a little more focus on Sailor V (her favorite character) in there. But I'm not going to stray off topic on Naoko Takeuchi's progress on the manga.

Anime version sucked. He was a jerk. In the manga, he had a little more charisma and you could understand him more.

I'm not a specially obsessed Mamoru fan or even MamoruxUsagi worshipper... I write fics where I break the Usagi and Mamoru pairing up and keep reading stories were Usagi hooks up with another. However, althought Mamoru/Darien may not be the best boyfriend or lover out there, and although perhaps he isn't the most suitable for Usagi out there, the SM series STILL show clearly that even though Usagi and Mamoru themselves aren't perfect (I repeat) their love certainly IS... They might sometimes fail to show it as much as one would wish, but it's THERE... and authors would do good in taking care of coming up with a GOOD and SENSIBLE explanation to break them up. It's hard, it's complicated, it's an all around challenge... but it's still possible. ^_^

I think Mamoru used to tease Usagi so much at the beginning cause he was acting like a five-year-old little boy not knowing any other way to get the attention of his unacknowledged secret crush. He would transform into Tuxedo Kamen whenever something inside him felt that his love's reincarnation was in danger, even BEFORE he knew a thing about his past life, and it happened because that ancient love was still kept hidden deep inside his soul, even when Mamoru himself was unaware of it.

In the SMR saga, Usagi and Mamoru had recovered their memories and started dating, before they even knew about ChibiUsa or Crystal Tokyo. Mamoru himself had chosen Usagi over Ann in the Doom Tree saga. They were dating and happy until Mamoru started having those stupid dreams about a voice teeling him that Usagi would die if they stayed together, and that he should stay away from her if he wanted her to survive. As a result, Mamoru dumped Usagi. Okay, okay, I ALSO think that was the stupidest reason in the world, but what girl here can say she's never, not even once, had a misunderstanding with a boyfriend, only to discover it was due to the STUPIDEST reason possible in the whole world? The more unexpereinced the couple are in relationships, the more chances these kind of problems of miscommunication take place. I think it's sage to asume Usagi neverhad a boyfriend before Mamoru, and Mamoru... well, let's say having grown up in an orphanage doesn't REALLY teach you much about love and relationships.

Anyway, in the manga, Mamoru has this weird ability called pyshometry (sp?) with which he can get visions of the past and future by touching an object or a person. I think we can all agree that dreams are of high significance in the SM universe. I think Mamoru's dreams, including those of the SMR saga, were the adaptation of this power Mamoru had in the manga: from the beginning of the series, Mamoru had learned the importance of trusting his dreams ever since he'd use to dream of the silohuette of Princess Serenity telling him to search for the Silver Crystal. In other words: way before the SMR saga, Mamoru had already learned that he should trust his dreams cause they usually were no ordinary dreams at all, but warnings and premonitions of a possible outcome, or whatever. King Endymion probably knew that and used this knowledge to deceive Mamoru.

I also thought it was kinda suspicious that Mamoru's future self would want to 'test' Mamoru's love for Usagi, when he should already know the answer. But then I got it: he DID know the answer, that's why he knew it was safe to try what he did. Usually, every relationship suffers a test whenever the couple fights, has an arguement or breaks up. That test is not, or not only, of the strength of their feelings, but also the strength of their bond: their trust in one another and their ability to discuss things through to solve all the problems and misunderstandings they might have. King Endymion probably knew that since Mamoru and Usagi had just started dating at the moment he knew they would be forced to travel to the future Crystal Tokyo, since their relationship was so new they probably wouldn't have the chance yet to know one another's personalities once more, not as much as they had in the Silver Millenium... that only "the wounds of love" would strengthen their love enough for them not to be as much overcome with uncertainty and despair as King Endymion probably rememebered they had been in the Wiseman saga: he was only trying to lessen the suffering he already knew they'd go through in the Wiseman saga, by forcing them to review their relationship and as a consequence strengthen their bond.

In other words, it wasn't that he didn't know if they'd be capable of defeating Diamond and Wiseman and get back together, it was that he remebered Diamond and Wiseman had given them a hard time and that by forcing them into an arguement they would most probably talk things out a lot more and strengthen their bond enough so that the whole battle that would come didn't affect them as bad. The key to a good relationship is a good communication, and King Endymion probably knew Mamoru and Usagi should build a better one, between them, before they got more deeply involved in the oncoming battle of the future... That kind of communication, that kind of improvement, can only happen once the faith and trust in each other has been strengthened by their reconciliation after a fight, after they have overcome all doubts, and as a result, a better communication would strengthen their bond even more.

The fact that Mamoru teases Usagi so much is because they complete each other: she's outspoken where he is shy, she's loving and caring when he's reserved, she's terrible in her studies when he's a dedicated student, blah blah blah. However, in what counts, they're one and the same: they both fight for love and justice and eventually are willing to protect their loved ones even if it means death and suffering.

Some people argue about why Mamoru couldn't free himself completeley from the brainwashing that Beryl, Neherenia and Galaxia gave him, while Usagi herself resisted both Wiseman's and Zirconia's attempts . My theory is because he was always human, even as Prince Endymion, while Usagi/Serenity wasn't, at least not completely. She was always the inranation of a goddess while Endymion was always only a mortal. I think the series have proven time and time again that humans are a lot more vulnerable to brainwashing than the rest of the popullation of the Solar System: that's probably why Beryl and Metallia chose to start the war by brainwashing only the human popullation of Earth instead of attacking first in any other planet of the Solar System.

Anyway, why I think they aren't perfect, but that their love is? Cuae time and time again, no matter what happened to them , no matter how much they learned about their future, that future still didn't change, and that was proof that they'd stick together.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a particularly big Mamoru fan, but I think that's what the entire SM series is about.

You see Usagi as a ** because she's paired with different guys in crossover FANFICTION. Let me ask you this. What do you see Minako as? In the anime, she (1) pursued Haruka until she found out that the latter was a girl, (2) dated Hawkeye and Tigereye simultaneously, (3) fought with Makoto over a man who ran a daycare, and (4) pursued the Three Lights relentlessly. Do you see her as a ** as well?

I'm not bashing Minako, don't get me wrong. In fact, I love her and the rest of the senshi. It's just unfair that bashers focus only on one facet of Usagi's personality (the negative, that is) and forget the rest.

Deep down, I think Mina/Minako is just as lonely and sad that the guys she ended falling for not returning her feelings. The same applies to Lita/Makoto - she's not technically obsessed with boys. She shares the same pain with Mina/Minako as well. Both girls only dreamed of a guy who would love them faithfully. I think that's what Darien/Mamoru and Serena/Usagi's love so special and wonderful. :D

Minako a **? Was the Goddess of Love, Aphrodite, a **? Then why so many women wanted to be her?

Usagi a **? Just because they pair her with another guy? It depends on the fic, absolutely.

Making Usagi a ** is definetely an OOC. I can't picture her to be the unfaithful type with lose morals and sleeping with other men. It's the AUTHOR'S fault for making a deliberate false representation of the character.

Serena/Usagi is like Tohru Honda from Fruits Basket - so sweet and caring. Serena/Usagi can be quite possessive to Darien/Mamoru. Man, it's scary when she gets all riled up to see him with another woman. She CAN be quite jealous and calculating selfish person especially all those times when she and Rini/Chibi-Usa fought over who gets Darien/Mamoru's attention.

Aphrodite represents beauty and passion. Women like to model themselves after her to be alluring to men.

And yes, bashing characters is stupid and pointless, I have to agree. Take Kikyo from Inuyasha for example, alot of people tend to hate her because she's trying to break up Inuyasha and Kagome. She's being misrepresented in fanfic bashing and she's just a misunderstood character.

And I think from Lizzie's point of view, Darien/Mamoru is just grossly misrepresenting his true character and that's doing injustice (fanfic betrayals). I guess this what kinda got her angry in the first place with her unresolved issues with Usagi/Serena.

People just need to be open-minded that's all. It's hard sometimes.

Usagi IS very caring and sweet person. It's YOU as the author to blame for making HER a devious, sleazy character.

Usagi centered fics are all BORING, REDUNDANT and POINTLESS and that's why I chose not to read them.

Sure, some Usagi fics are bad but sometimes you get people who actually know how to write, also you have to take into account the intelligence of the reader. The author cant help it if the readers arent able to recognize a well-written, well thought out story.

It's good to know that you're able and willing to assert your opinions and choose what you do or don't view. I won't read MamoruxUsagi fics. I don't read fics that are senshi-bashing escapades unless I intend to reprimand the author. But it's hard to talk about fics that you haven't read, at least not if you intend to be accurate or truthful. I suppose if you want to stereotype, then yeah, sure, why not? In that case, allow me to say that I find all Yu-Gi-Oh related fanfiction terribly boring and even more importantly badly written. Technically, ALL of fanfiction is pointless; no makes a profit, no one gets any credit, no one's becoming famous, no one's doing anything besides playing around and tinkering with their skills. Maybe, though, the fault doesn't really lie with the fanfics written but the people writing them. Unless you have something new or important to say or to offer, then yeah, it's going to be boring.

I don't think that flirting with guys is necessarily slutty behavior. If she'd been sleeping with all of them, that would be a different story, but I don't see Minako doing that. On the OTHER hand, going out with more than one person at the same time? I *do* think that is slutty behavior--at the very least it's terribly rude. So really, if we all agree that it's not sluttish to be boy crazy and want to flirt with a whole bunch of guys, then how are the majority of the fics in which Usagi does the same thing sluttish? If she's not sleeping around, is she a **? Is "keeping your options open" being a **?

And while I'm on the subject, I'd like to point out if we're talking about the Goddess of Love, Aphrodite... the answer is YES, she WAS a **, at least by today's standards. But then, so were a great many of the Greek and Roman deity--if you read the stories, you'll find that both the men and women are promiscuous with all sorts of people/creatures, which is really kinda squicky when you consider that most of the gods and goddesses were related to eachother in one way or another. Anyhow, enough of that tangent.

So my spin: I don't like Mamoru much at all. He seemed cold in the anime, and not just to Usagi, but to Rei as well when they were going out--I distinctly remember an episode in which Mamoru just stood by and let the message machine pick up Rei's call. (My familiarity with the manga, btw, isn't very good. I've been told on more than one occasion that Takeuchi's original portrayal is much better.) The whole dream issue with Usagi dying if they got married...? Wow, what a stupid reason to break up with someone, instead of just talking to her about it and giving a proper explanation--if he STILL wanted to break up with her, then by all means. Like Jay said, we all have issues and misunderstandings with the people we love--hell, that's part of loving someone, I think. But I think calling the dream thing a misunderstanding in that sense is a stretch--I mean, a misunderstanding is between two people (two different people) and typically over something like, oh, using the wrong words or coming in at the wrong part of a conversation, something like that. When we start involving dreams sent by future selves into the equation, I feel like what's really being tested here is not their relationship but the viewer's sanity.

I have, in previous fics, made fun of Mamoru; I don't generally anymore because while I don't like him I don't hate him the way I used to. It shouldn't--no, doesn't--even matter *why* I don't like him. I'm free to and willing to express that opinion; it's not like anyone can say an opinion is "wrong" however much they don't agree or dislike it. In the end, if we don't like what we read, we stop reading it.

The responsible thing to do when you don't like what you see is to create something or your own that champions what you *do* like, so that other people can gather around that fandom and create fics that will increase that couple's/whatever's popularity and availability. It makes me very angry to hear from people about how they're displeased with something when they're not even willing to try on their own; it makes me just as angry when people ask an author why they can't write such-and-such-centric story. People who aren't willing to try to change things other than by whining about how bad they are really need to step back and ask themselves just how badly they want that change; no one's going to take the time and trouble for them.

... I feel like I've somehow digressed in the topic. At any rate, that is *all* I have to say.

LOL, I can't agree more... Seems japanese people have a weird concept of lovers' quarrels... Either that or Takeuchi wanted Mamoru to ressemble the typical teenaged lousy boyfriend. ^^D

Anyway, just a thought: I think we REALLY should start addressing an author by their name before replying to a specific statement of his/hers... I can't be the only one that sometimes gets confused, am I? O.o

Back to the topic: Concerning what Tenshi no Nozomi said, at the beginning, when I first started reading SM fanfiction, I didn't mind the Mamoru bashing. I still don't, or any other character's being bashed, even Usagi herself. However, the bashing thing is REALLY getting old, too, in fanfiction, and when I read, for example, three different fics from the same single author, that bash Mamoru and for the same reasons in all three of the fics.... (sigh) I can't help but wonder if those people could ever write an Usagi-centered crossover WITHOUT bashing Mamoru...

Make him spontaneously combust in your stories, for all I care -.- but please stop repeating the classic over-used and utterly boring Mamoru-cheats-on-Usagi plot! T_T

(It's not that I don't think Mamoru could ever be a cheater, it's that the same scenario going over and ver again becomes so monotonous...)

As for WHY they (the anime crew) had him break up with her in the past...

Heh, reminds me of this "Stupidity in the SM series" topic I read once:

King Endymion: I'm going to send my past self dreams so I can test his love for Usagi even though I'm him and I should already know how much I love her (wait wait wait...why am I breaking up with her?)

Followed by:

Mamoru: I'm just going to listen to these random dreams without question and break up with Usagi, never mind it could just be the enemy trying to trick me.

There weres ome others, like why Sailor Cosmos came back as a 3-year old if her intention was to warn Usagi of the fight with Galaxia, or why Rei didn't tell the others about her dreams even though they foreshadowed the entire S series, etc

To Mystlady: I'm not saying that Minako is a ** even though she pursued a lot of guys in the ANIME. She didn't sleep with any of them, after all. What I don't understand is how bashers can claim Usagi is a ** just because she's romantically linked with different guys in CROSSOVER FANFICS. In 99.9% of the Usagi-centered fanfics posted here, Usagi doesn't ACTUALLY have sex with whoever she's partnered with. Besides, in those fics, she and Mamoru have either broken up, on the verge of breaking up, not romantically linked in the first place, et cetera, et cetera. She's not actually cheating on him.

I agree with you that we have to be open-minded. While it's true that Naoko intended Usagi and Mamoru to be together, we have to remember that we're dealing with CROSSOVER FANFICTION here. In crossover fanfiction, ALMOST anything goes. If we follow the manga, anime, and/or live action to a T when we write, then we're not actually writing fanfiction, are we? We're just regurgitating the manga, anime, and/or live action. Besides, how can anyone write a crossover fanfiction without taking creative liberties at all? It's impossible! Also, if Mamoru and Usagi are ALWAYS a couple in crossover fanfiction, then, to me, at least, it's boring.

To Shiela Leland: A girl who chases guys is not necessarily a **, but if she has to wear skimpy clothes to attract them or make blatant sexual advances in the process, then her behaviour can be considered slutty.

You complain that we (authors who write Usagi-centered fics) are to blame for making Usagi a sleazy character. How? We don't even make her have SEX with the guys we partner her with! WE WRITE ROMANCE, NOT SMUT, FYI.

So you choose not to read the many Usagi-centered fics posted here. Good for you.

To Tenshi no Nozomi:

The responsible thing to do when you don't like what you see is to create something or your own that champions what you *do* like, so that other people can gather around that fandom and create fics that will increase that couple's/whatever's popularity and availability. It makes me very angry to hear from people about how they're displeased with something when they're not even willing to try on their own; it makes me just as angry when people ask an author why they can't write such-and-such-centric story. People who aren't willing to try to change things other than by whining about how bad they are really need to step back and ask themselves just how badly they want that change; no one's going to take the time and trouble for them.

WELL SAID!

lol. I doubt it was the second. XD Who knows what is was supposed to mean. Really, I doubt Takeuchi had much to do with that decision. In fact, with the anime her hands were tied for the most part. Most of the crew for animation/writing, etc, (or so I have been told and wouldn't disbelieve for certain reasons) consisted of mostly men. Which explains the excessive panty shots. But when you think about it, the typical ideal Japanese man (or at least it used to be this way, I'm not sure if it remains so) is the stoic protector; we see that all the time in Shoujo manga. I actually wonder if the discpencies between the anime Mamoru and manga Mamoru reflect the differences between what men think women want of them and what women actually want. Just a thought. :3

I don't think it's so much that I mind people disliking a character or letting that be reflected in certain ways. But like you, I'm also tired of seeing the old, beaten path tread so often. Surely we can think of something new? Aside from that, bashing often leads to a stereotypical, flat portrayal of characters that otherwise might actually be round, dynamic characters worthy of a narration that reflects that. Besides, it's harder to write a character you dislike in a reasonable light, so I think it reflects 1) a sense of maturity 2) an attempt at something complex/personally difficult and 3) the true desire for growth as a writer. :D Just my personal thoughts.

To Shadow Sonic 1:

I would have loved to see that particular section. Sounds like it would have been entertaining.

To themoonmaiden:

You make a lot of good points. Fanfiction alone requires open-mindedness. Crosses, even more so, simply because it requires us to suspend disbelief for two (or more) series at the same time. Fanfiction alone is a creative liberty of sorts, and people take more unreasonable liberties all the time with fics than pairings. For instance, the abundance of Mary Sues, either in disguise as canon characters or else self-inserted. It's pathetic. I think the only real shame when it comes to writing a pairing is if you don't provide support for it--love doesn't happen overnight, and that's why I feel that the anime's take on Mamoru/Usagi's relationship isn't healthy or realistic. Romantic relationships are even more delicate than regular relationships, and take a great deal of time and effort to build. It used to be that people courted for a long time and then got married and (mostly) stayed married. Now we seem to have reached something of the opposite--short courtships followed by short marriages.

And I'm glad you liked my statement. I thought it was necessary for someone to make it. :3

In general (to Shiela Leland, after having read themoonmaiden's last post):

Romance can have smut in it--many of the romance novels on the shelves have steamy, explicit sex scenes that aren't meant for kids. Take a peek; most often, they have at least one sex scene in them. Some authors have sex scenes that go on for pages upon pages. Some of them seem to consist of little but sex, as seems to be the case of the Anita Blake series. The point I'm trying to get at is that the romance fics on ffn very little resemble the romance novels you'll find on the bookshelf of Barnes&Noble, namely because we're not allowed to write those racy scenes, but mostly because I think most of the authors here aren't too concerned with writing sex scenes.

At the most, we're allowed to write sexual tension, which is very different than actual sex, in my opinion. If wanting someone is what makes a person a **, then we're probably all guilty. I doubt that any of us here can claim that if we found someone that we really loved that we would be completely unwilling to consider having sex with them, unless your religion absolutely prohibits sexual intercourse before marriage. And even then, girls and guys still do it. Is it so hard to imagine that people make the wrong decisions and sometimes sleep with someone they love at the time but turns out to be the wrong person?

To me, the behavior of a ** is defined in the way and manner for which they seek out sex. Sex is supposed to be the ultimate consummation of a couple's love, and symbolically speaking it represents a point in our lives when we cross a threshold from childhood to adulthood (or at least, it used to). This may seem like an outdated interpretation now, but considering the grave concequences to the act--pregnancy, the contraction of stds--I think that sex is regarded carefully with the stigmatism of danger (or it should be). Frequent sex with multiple partners completely disregards these dangers (no contraceptive is 100% accurate, nor can it guarantee protection from HIV) and places people at risk. So a **, then, is someone that we can think of as having very little regard for their safety or the safety of their partners.

Coming to the point: I would like to know which fic, if any, has Usagi--or ANY senshi, for that matter--exhibiting that kind of behavior. I think most authors have too much regard for the characters they write to do that. Premarital sex may not be admirable, but in modern society, it doesn't necessarily make one a **.

http://prettyguardiansailormoon.com/viewtopic.php?t=4712

From what I know, and in my own personal opinion, a ** is usually a girl/woman that haves sex with many guys without having any special or deep feelings for any of them and without putting any thought to the possible consequences. For example:

CASE 1: It's a female that listens to her hormones ALL the time.

CASE 2: iN OTHER CASES, a ** seeks sex mainly for the power that she discovered it gives her over some men. That way ** can get money, reputation, wealth and such from a male, instead and easier than if they tried earning those things for themselves, and they deliberatelly develop the skills of seduction, seeking to pease and satisfy the intended male in any way possible, in order to obtain those specific advantages, and not because they really have a profound attachment to each man in particular.

CASE 3: A ** is also the kind of female that doesn't care about the ones getting hurt while she has "fun" with married men or men that they know have a girlfriend or are in a deep relationship with another woman. These kind of women are esentially different from the unfortunate ones that are fooled by the lies of a man that hides from them the fact that he's married, or assures them they're gonna leave their girlfriend/wife when they don't truly intend or are too scared to do so. If a woman falls inlove with a married man, then, it doesn't make her a **, it merely makes her unfortunate... because there's 100% chance that she's in for a lot of suffering. We can't help falling inlove with the wrong person sometimes, but it's the ACTIONS a woman takes from then on in those cases what defines whether she's a ** or merely a female unfortunate where love is concerned.

CASE 4: A ** is a married woman or a girl with a boyfreind that frecuently cheats on her lover without remorse, and with men she doesn't feel strongly about.

CASE 5: Last, some men I know would like to think a ** is a female that leads them on, making them believe she's interested, only to reveal otherwise later on, like they've "suddenly" changed their minds... But that's men for you (winks): being rejected out of the blue can get you quite frustrated ad angry.

Now, let's see if any of the above apply to any of the senshi? Let's see:

CASE 1: Even when Minako, Makoto, Usagi and sometimes Rei drool over guys, the most we see Minako do most of the time in the anime/manga, I think, is just a bit of swooning and daydreaming. From what I remember, it's rare that we see her actually invite a guy to a date or give him her phone number or making out with any of them, so the answer is no: she doesn't usually listen to her hormones in an ACTIVE way. Same can be said for the other senshi.

CASE 2: If that were true, Usagi would have thrown herself at Mamoru's feet a lot earlier, from the moment she found out he was rich, and Rei would have made a move on Yuiichiro. As for the Three Lights, we all know Seiya was more into Usagi than her into him, Ami was incredibly shy around her crush Taiki and Minako was just a big fan of them as singers. Besides, they all got upset nd distrustful after Yaten and Taiki cornered ChibiChibi demanding she give them her censer inside of which their Princess Kakyuu was hiding, and only Usagi managed to convince them to chill. Then, the answer is no: they're not wiling to go to great lenghts to pease and satisfy a famous and rich male.

CASE 3: When Minako found out her old crush was dating her friend the policewomean, she stepped aside and left England. When Rei found out Mamoru and Usagi were reincarnated lovers, she stpped aside in order for them to be happy. Both Makoto and Usagi left Motoki alone after they found out he had a girlfriend, and later on Usagi and Minako made sure Michiru wasn't Haruka's girlfriend when they still thought the later was a male. Michiru denied being Haruka's lover, at least in the dub, so I guess once again the answer is no, they aren't **.

CASE 4: Usagi never made out with either Ail, Haruka or Seiya in the anime, and in the manga, she didn't kiss Haruka or Seiya but got kissed by THEM unexpectedly. In the anime, she merely day dreamed about Ail (and she wasn't even together with Mamoru yet) and about Haruka.

CASE 5: I don't think she lead Seiya on. She never willingly kissed him or told him explicitely he was interested or anything: Usagi's just a girl that thinks sincerely and perhaps naively that she can be best friends with guys and befriend people no matter their gender. On the other hand, Seiya new she had a boyfreind and pursued her while being perfectly aware of it, ven when Usagi completely hated his guts at first. In Seiya's favor, he thought Mamoru was being an ** to Usagi and didn't try to tal her into having an affair but merely made it known to her that he would treat her better if she let him take Mamoru's place in her heart, but that doesn't change the fact that HE was the one to pursue her and try his luck in earning her heart (which I would have to admit I would have done the same... like I said, we can't help who we fall inlove with).

CONCLUSION: No, they aren't **. At least not in my opinion.

1. a careless, dirty, slovenly woman; slattern

2. a sexually promiscuous woman

You MISUNDERSTOOD my previous post. I NEVER SAID OR IMPLIED that Minako and Usagi (or any senshi for that matter) are **. What I was trying to say was this: If Minako IS NOT a ** just because she chased guys in the ANIME, then Usagi IS NOT a ** either just because she's paired with different guys in CROSSOVER FANFICTION. The majority of the Usagi-centered fics here DON'T HAVE Usagi SLEEPING AROUND, for crying out loud!

I wanted USAGI-BASHERS to REALIZE the DOUBLE-STANDARD and the hypocrisy. If, according to them, Minako IS NOT A ** (and I totally agree), then THEY CANNOT CLAIM that Usagi is a **. Minako MAY CHASE guys (in the anime) and Usagi MAY BE CHASED by guys (in the anime and fanfiction) BUT UNLESS they ACTUALLY EXCHANGE or EXCHANGED BODILY FLUIDS WITH TOTAL ABANDON WITH ANYONE *AND* EVERYONE OR SOMETHING (and they don't/never did), then THEY AREN'T **.

BASHERS HAVE TO STOP THE NAME-CALLING. Usagi IS NOT a **.

To Nozomi-chan: I totally agree with you. One of the issues I have with the anime is that Usagi and Mamoru became a couple just because AND right after they found out about their past. It would have been better if they were already a couple before their past or history was unravelled, but noooo -_-; I don't doubt that Usagi is *totally* head over heels in love with Mamoru. It's in her nature to love wholeheartedly, after all. Cool, mysterious, aloof, sophisticated Mamoru, however... Not that I'm doubting Mamoru's love for Usagi or anything, of course! (I raised this issue in my strictly SM fic, by the way.)

And as for my comment ("We write romance, not smut.")... I should have elaborated further just so no one (bashers, most especially) would misunderstand me ^^; There's a fine line between romance and smut, imo. Romance involves love while smut is nothing but sexual gratification. Even if Usagi does have sex or sex-like scenes in fanfics, she usually (or eventually) cares about/loves whoever she's doing it with. She doesn't have sex or sex-like scenes *just* because she needs to scratch an itch. I apologize for being vulgar ^^;

About your statement which I quoted... I couldn't have said it better myself. Bravo!

The whole Usagi/Mamoru ship would be much easier to believe if they'd taken the time to develop the relationship. At best, they'd been on again/off again friends previously, and suddenly they're supposed to be lovers? Future husband and wife? That's a monumental shift in gears.

lol. I understand. There is a difference between what most people consider as sex and smut. Some people, however, have the idea that all sexual acts/interpretations are smut and evil and dirty--I say this because some people still won't allow their children to listen to sex ed in school (which has scarred me for life, but less due to the sex thing and more due to the child-birth scene at the end of the movie). So I wanted to put it across in terms that could loosly loop around that ideal in case the person I was arguing with happened to be of a more strict interpretation. (Btw, we seem to be arguing at empty air, since that girl hasn't deigned to reply.)

Hehe. I've been complaining amongst friends/on livejournal for some time about that, so I've kind of had time to coalesce the fragmented thoughts into a productive, cohesive statement. *shrugs* It also helps that it's something that I feel genuinely passionate about, so I'm sure that helps/comes through. :D

Mm. All this talk about ** and such really makes me want to rise to the challenge... I think since Lela was so kind to issue a challenge, it ought to be answered. It might not exactly be a popular story, but I think a brothel/prostitute story would be interesting... maybe something kind of like a geisha, only implied (heavily) that there's more going on than singing and dancing and simple entertainment.(I realize this sounds mean, probably, mystlady, but I feel that if we're going to make generalizations about characters having questionable professions, then hey.... someone should rise to meet the challenge in a way that challenges everything in general.) Anyone think this is definitely a bad idea or not? I'd be perfectly happy to hear what you've got to say.

You see, the mere possibility of any of them being a ** never really even crosed my mind before. O.O

I think the whole ** thing started when someone mistakenly thought somone else was labelling a girl (e.g. Usagi) who is not devoted to her past-life lover (e.g. Mamoru) as a **.

To Tenshi no Nozomi:

The whole Usagi/Mamoru ship would be much easier to believe if they'd taken the time to develop the relationship. At best, they'd been on again/off again friends previously, and suddenly they're supposed to be lovers? Future husband and wife? That's a monumental shift in gears.

That's probably because Sailor Moon was intended to be the perfect fairytale: having a lot to do with fantasy and daydreams and little to do with reality, lol. We only get to see ywo years in Mamoru and Usagi's relationship, and according to mangaverse Usagi becomes Queen of Earth at 22... That makes it six years in their engagement we know nothing about, which were probably meant to make the greatst difference.

It's all ChibiUsa's fault. If she hadn't travelled in time so early in the series, it would have made more sense. ^^D

Anyone think this is definitely a bad idea or not? I'd be perfectly happy to hear what you've got to say.

All I have to say is that in the DBZ/SM section, to everyone's great misfortune, they took one of the best stories there ever, Phedre no Delaunay's "Vendetta" down, I think due to an issue of rating, and even though the story was about Usagi and Rei becoming "geishas" of some sort and Michiru getting assaulted, it was hardly explicit enough in my opinion... (sigh) Nozomi, am I right to guess you're acquainted with Phedre? I'd say her experience makes her wiser than any of us in that matter, so if you want to know the risks of writing about this subject, I suppose you could try contacting her.

Anyway, there is one fanfic that re-wrote the end of the R season. It does give a certain cliche about Usagi (or Serena is what she is referred to in the fic) having a twin brother from the silver millenium. But in the author's defense, she wrote this long before this became a cliche. It is very well written and it is just awesome all around. She was planning on re-writing the rest of the seasons (S and SuperS at least) with the twin brother added into the mix but she only finished one sequel. For anyone interested, I'll leave the link: http://members.aol.com/CresMnBm/universe.htm.

There is also another story on there that goes into the Earth Kingdom's royal line. It seems Endymion has a sister as well. I havent read this one yet but Ive heard its good.

So now Im going to try and catch up in all the forums I posted in several weeks ago...

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1533465/1/

It's about future King Endymion screwing around with Mamoru's life just so he can be reunited with his Generals.

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