I think there is real concern here not with RB itself, but with the administrators response. The lack thereof.

I'm just spit-balling here, because my practical experience with this type of thing is virtually nil, but it could be that the Admins are unsure how to proceed, if they do intend to proceed. Locking an account seems like a fairly straight-forward process, but stopping people from using a program is more difficult. They may not have the proper expertise.

There are other possibilities. As I understand it, the biggest complaint, besides the fact it may violate the TOS, is that the program produces false positives, which some users do not double-check. But unless this program is a lumbering monstrosity, it can't throw out too many. And I'm guessing not all the users are as apathetic as advertised either, so the actual amount of false-positives reported is likely very small. Those who notice, and are willing to send complaints, are probably even smaller, so it may not appear to be a serious problem to them.

I'm not saying it's not a problem. I'm just giving a plausible explanation for the lack of action.

The one he gave to Mythmaker I raised an eyebrow at.

You mean me? Which one?

You mean me? Which one?

He left you more than one? It was the one for "Caged", I believe.

As for the RB, I guess since no one is abusing it, or can, apparently, then however it goes, it goes. There's not much anyone can do but stomp and snarl until the admin do something about it.

Ya, I'm taking something of a wait and see attitude myself. It'll be interesting to see how this makes its way up the bureaucracy.

If you don't mind me asking, what raised your eyebrows abut that review?

Well, to me it seemed snide, as if he was trying very hard to sound sophisticated and erudite. A snob. It just rubbed me the wrong way at the time. However, maybe you two have an understanding between you, and I'm making more out of it that I should. It's no biggie.

As for RB, the LU has cut all ties with it. Apparently, the threads will be deleted once the administrator comes back. The fallout is noticeable, as several members are leaving over all this. And not just the program, but for the way things were handled, I guess. I'm not involved, but I can't help but wonder what LK will do with his program now.

Ah, okay. Yeah, he left a very helpful review for another story, and he was kinda building off of that with this one.

In the end, there's probably too much backlash for RB to survive. It was an interesting idea, but it sounds too much like something the Admins would use.

Edit: Wow. Just dropped by the Literate Union, and it seems the place is tearing itself apart. Topics dedicated to RB are being taken down, and there is quite a bit of bridge-burning, even from the Mods.

Don't know exactly what it means for this topic. If it goes on like this, there won't be an RB or an LU left. Maybe the Admins won't have to do anything at all...

There are other possibilities. As I understand it, the biggest complaint, besides the fact it may violate the TOS, is that the program produces false positives, which some users do not double-check. But unless this program is a lumbering monstrosity, it can't throw out too many. And I'm guessing not all the users are as apathetic as advertised either, so the actual amount of false-positives reported is likely very small. Those who notice, and are willing to send complaints, are probably even smaller, so it may not appear to be a serious problem to them.

I'm sorry, what program? I seem to have missed something somewhere because I have no idea what false positives are being registered by what to who and what is being done to them.

Well, to me it seemed snide, as if he was trying very hard to sound sophisticated and erudite.

Lol, you're too kind. 'Lord Kelvin', right? I took a look at that review, just out of curiosity and it honestly looked like he thought he was some college professor critiquing the fifth-grade essay contest using college standards. No offense to anyone who likes him, but I thought he was an a**hole and unnecessarily rude. Especially for the fandom. I don't know about anyone else, but to me it'd feel OOC reading a videogame fanfic if it was written as 'high-brow liturature'.

P.S. I did not read the fic, did not read the entire review, just the opening lines which gave me the above impression of what he expected from the fic and what he thought of what he found.

I'm sorry, what program?

Redbottom. For more, read post #1.

I did not read the fic, did not read the entire review, just the opening lines which gave me the above impression of what he expected from the fic and what he thought of what he found.

The first few lines were referencing an earlier review. I realize no one has time to check everything, but you shouldn't criticize it so firmly when you don't know all the facts.

The tone was unnecessary. I mean, laughing off your title and the entire introduction seemed uncalled for. I don't even count the first line since I wasn't privy to that conversation.

Firmly? I said he came off like an a**hole in what I read and sounded rude. I didn't say he was though, since I don't know the guy or the source material. I just can't think of how badly you could've written (especially you; you sound like you don't suck) to have warrented the reaction.

I suppose if the review was all you had to base it on, it might sound that way. But the aspects he discussed were the subject some suggestions he gave me some time ago that I tried to implement. With that context, I found them very helpful.

Ok, sorry, I know I'm coming a bit late to this particular topic, but I read everything. One thing in particular bothers me about all of this, and no it's not the earlier debate. True argument is a wonderful and necessary thing. I went to look at Lord Kelvin's profile just out of curiosity, and happened to notice that he is from Lithuania. That would seem to indicate that he isn't necessarily a native English speaker. Now obviously that doesn't mean that you wouldn't have a wonderful grasp on the English language, but it does tend to put you at a disadvantage next to a native speaker. I just wonder how someone who may have a less natural grasp on English can feel comfortable making such definitive statements.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean.

Well I suppose I'm commenting a bit on the evident distaste he tends to treat some writers with. It sort of sprang to mind when the DW was commenting on the reviews he had left for you. I didn't really mean you in particular, though I do agree with DW that his tone seems a bit condescending. What I really want to know is whether or not he is a native English speaker. Most people I meet on this website who write in a language that isn't their first don't seem to act like know it alls when it comes to writing in that secondary language. I know I certainly wouldn't. Of course he could just be a native speaker living in Lithuania in which case he's just a jerk.

Well, the only basis I have to go on are the two reviews he left for me and a few others. While I haven't exactly gone out of my way to look for it, I haven't noticed anything resembling "distaste" in any of them.

Still, what I've seen is probably not representative, and so I can't speak for anyone but me.

By the way, could you tell me what in particular sticks out as condescending? I sometimes take a similar tone in my reviews, so I'd be nice to know.

Hmm I don't know if it's so much condescending as he seems amused by your silly mistakes. I'll use the opening as an example.

I am deeply amused by your...let's call it Caging the Beast. The introduction was a perfect example of a speedy scholar. Sure, I find it rather disturbing to see quotation after quotation beginning in a half-bare fashion, but it does bring a smile. I'm going to bet this is a stunt since chapter two carries on your genuine complexity. It's difficult to give up a perk, eh?

It really comes off sounding as though he considers you a child to be educated and humored. I think perhaps the word I'm looking for is smug. The wording seems to suggest that he's amused, but not in a nice way.

It also bothered me that the rest of the review basically seemed to be telling you, in flowery words, that you shouldn't deviate from the established fanfiction norms of your particular fandom. To suggest that you can't take the characters, and do something original with them seems, to me at least, to defeat the point of writing a fanfiction. Not everyone's story can be the same.

Where IS Sonic? Where ARE the Chaotix? Sure, movies and original fiction like to give us the bleak outlook of a situation and how grim things are, but this is fan fiction we are talking about. Chapter one cannot be treated in any way other than an original.

I think this kind of sums it up for me. If everyone's fanfictions started exactly the same way it would be boring. He even seems to dislike that you've used some original characters. He's entitled to his opinion, but I doubt that is helpful to you finishing your story. The only real useful critique I saw was saying that you needed better descriptions of surroundings. Everyone at some point or another needs to work on that. Of course after that he basically told you that you shouldn't even bother creating new surroundings, because no one would ever be able to picture them properly. Again our job as a writer is to learn to bring new environments to life so I didn't really find that comment helpful. I mean I don't know what you took from the review. If it was a helpful review to you that's fantastic, but I would have felt a bit put off by it.

I did read the other reviews, and they seemed a bit more jovial than this one. He seems to genuinely like what you write which is great. If anything his word usage seems a bit old fashioned. The way he puts words together puts me in a time warp.

I suppose I can see what you mean, but as the writer, my view is a bit different. I've had some conversations with him in depth concerning other stories, so I can't blame you for your perspective. I took a lot of his advice in writing the openeing paragraphs, so you can see why he commented on it. As for the rest, I was purposefully trying to avoid references to the source material to try and appeal to a broader audience, and he responded by saying it would not appeal as much to fans of the genre. I can understand his perspective, and agree , to a point, because these were things I'd considered while writing.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you're right in saying it wasn't an ideal review, but it just happened to have exactly what I was looking for.

Well then that's all you can ask for. If it helps then that's prefect. The rest of it was just me picking it apart, because you asked me to elaborate on what he said that made my eyebrows go up.

It really comes off sounding as though he considers you a child to be educated and humored. I think perhaps the word I'm looking for is smug. The wording seems to suggest that he's amused, but not in a nice way.

Actually, smug is his personality. You can tell by his posts on the LU that he considers himself something of an expert on all things fanfiction, writing, and the world. Someone who knows him in RL says he doesn't like to be challenged, which in itself is considered arrogance.

So, I do believe he was humoring you, Myth, when he left that review. And he knew what he was doing.

Ok this just leads back to my original questions. Is English his first language? It doesn't say anywhere on his profile that it is, and he lives in Lithuania. His writing suggests to me a much more formal version than most people use in their everyday lives. That and every so often I notice mistakes that someone who listens to English everyday wouldn't make. Ok I'm not like an expert on his writing or anything, but something just seems a little off about the kinds of mistakes he makes.

It shouldn't matter. And by his own creed, it doesn't matter if English is your second language, or you're dyslexic, or you're young, or whatever else the LU labels an "excuse". This is why no breaks for his writing, and this is why I didn't bother with sugar-coating when I did his review. He should held accountable for the same "excuses".

So, I do believe he was humoring you, Myth, when he left that review. And he knew what he was doing.

I'll be honest. I'm not entirely sure what you're saying.

It doesn't matter.

I agree.

This is why no breaks for his writing, and this is why I didn't bother with sugar-coating when I did his review.

So you were deliberately trying to be as critical as possible to make your point? Isn't that a bit hypocritical?

To give him a taste of his own medicine? Yes. And I wanted to see if he can take what he dishes. That and he's a beta. I hold beta's to a higher standard, even though this site does not. And for the record, I'm not the one making a program to report stories for grammar and MA ratings. He is.

A story is good not because it is perfect, but because you can overlook its obvious flaws. Any story you go into purely with intent to hate is futile to read.

As a beta-reader yourself, I'd expect you to understand that reviews are not a tool to show your spite for a person.

For the record, I agree with LK that a better system should be in place to monitor violations of the TOS. While I can't agree with his methods, or his narrow interpretation, I appreciate he's trying to do something about it.

*shrugs* What I do is what I do. I have no control over your perception anyway. I can swear up and down that I didn't do it for spite, but why bother? You can't see me, hear my tone. This is the internet.

I'm picky in general with stories, even published ones. I love Stephen King, but I still get pissy about his loose POV's and never-ending tangents he sometimes goes on. However, I can still enjoy a story despite its flaws if those flaws aren't so glaring they blind me.

And for the record, I wanted to review LK's story for a long time, way before RB even came into existence. I had found him during a fruitless search for a beta, and thought even then (and this was months ago) that he had quite a few issues with his writing. I just had forgotten about him until this RB thing came up.

I was genuine in my praise: at first glance, everything IS in order. Sentences are varied and structure is sound. But I can't get around the POV problems and all the names he calls a few characters. That was a problem; it dulled my enjoyment of the work. I've read many fandoms, and some I had no inkling what was what, and who was who, but I STILL could understand the story, still could find much to praise about the writing.

In LK's case. Not so much. That's just the way it is.

And it's not up to users to do anything but report the stories that go against TOS. That's what the report button is for.

I can swear up and down that I didn't do it for spite, but why bother? You can't see me, hear my tone. This is the internet.

Perhaps. All I have to go on is what you wrote. And to me, you wanting to "give him a taste of his own medicine" did not sound like an objective reader giving an honest critique.

Still, it's entirely subjective. The only reason I mentioned it is because you brought it up.

And it's not up to users to do anything but report the stories that go against TOS. That's what the report button is for.

With all fairness to the Admins, all that does is shift the burden to the community. And as we saw with the whole RedBottom issue, which people clearly have complained about, their turn-around time isn't very fast.

Which is why I appreciate, but don't agree, with Lord Kelvin's methods.

And it's not up to users to do anything but report the stories that go against TOS. That's what the report button is for.

With all fairness to the Admins, all that does is shift the burden to the community.

I don't really see how that shifts the burden to the community. Opposed the community taking on a program like Red Button, that is.

Are you suggesting that FFnet's admins should monitor all stories themselves for possible TOS and guidelines violations?

Given that the Admins also have lives outside of Fanfiction, that is not a practical suggestion either.

What I am suggesting is that the current system, as it stands, is not perfect, and I can understand people being frustrated with it.

Perhaps. All I have to go on is what you wrote. And to me, you wanting to "give him a taste of his own medicine" did not sound like an objective reader giving an honest critique.

I'm a little too honest with my critiques, but I crit as I would want to be critiqued. If I had received even a tenth of what I gave him, I would be ecstatic. I would be overjoyed that I had things to improve and I could better my writing. Had I reviewed him out of spite, I wouldn't have bothered with "actual advice"; I would have just flamed the hell out of him.

I gave him things to work on, and suggestions on how to correct those things. I have a disclaimer in my profile that reminds authors they don't have to listen to a damn word I say. It's a given, yes, but you'd be surprised how many forget that every review, even if 100% correct, is subjective. The author doesn't have to change a thing if they don't want to.

But back to the review itself, again, I pointed out areas that yes, do need improvement. I DID read his work - in fact, I had to comb through it carefully to figure who was who. I took time and effort to give him an honest crit. Should I have been nicer? Yeah. But since he's a beta, I figured he should have known better. And yes, his history of being nasty himself colored my words a little. However, I tried to maintain a neutral tone, not snide. I even joked about filling my gas tank at one point with all his epithets.

He mentioned something in his reply that if someone calls him an idiot, and he's offended, then he deserved the insult.

Take that as you will, but he and I already exchanged replies about my review. As far as I'm concerned, that review is finished and won't be mentioned by me again.

Well the redbooton's gone since the admin actively nixed the RB but it'll be funny to see anyone try to report the gem I just wrote! *wipes away tear of laughter*

If they speak Hindi and it breaks site rules, I imagine they'll report it exactly the same way they would anything else. If they don't speak Hindi, they won't even see it. I'm not sure what you think is so hilarious here.

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