FFN introduced a new dimension for sorting stories in a category: review count. Favs and follows were also added.

On the one hand, this answers the question Google gets asked a lot: 'What is the most popular Twilight story?' On the other, random people are more likely to give prominent stories more attention while hidden gems lie in the dust.

What are your thoughts?

I agree that it'll give the prominent stories that don't need more attention more attention. Having said that, it'll help revitalise popular stories buried way in the past.

Since review count tends to be proportional to length, I think popular short stories are less likely to be found than longer ones (especially since the filters only let you look at stories above a certain length rather than below them).

I know I certainly don't base my reading criteria off of the review count. Anyway I'm not entirely sure that review count indicates a popular story. Lots of people read and don't review after all. Plus people could be reccing the heck out of it on tumblr or LJ or somewhere else and never review it. The amount of hits a story gets seems like a more reasonable display of popularity than review count.

I feel that this feature will only encourage poor writers to review their own stories to pad their review count. As if they needed one already.

I just noticed they added 'Favs' and 'Follows' to the listings now. That's interesting, since it makes stories with padded anonymous reviews so much more easier to spot. High review count... low follow and favs? SUS-picous.

I have this add-on to Google Chrome that sorts all fics displayed on a page in the order of review/chapter ratio. I just tried it on top of sort-by Popularity filter...

The results were actually pretty decent. I found a whole bunch of good fics I didn't know existed.

I don't see what's the problem. There are people who will cheat, sure. They cheated also before, but when I checked the first three pages in my fandom, I can say that great majority of them is loved for a reason. They are very well written and deserve the attention and admiration. :)

Favs and followers - those numbers are rather useless. I know for sure that some of people who faved my story have never read it (they told me themselves); and some of the followers are not on the site any more. But a review is a review. It shows that at that time, the reviewer liked the story enough to write a comment (even if it is just a simple 'update soon' - after all, it means he was hooked).

Just going to point out that reviews aren't always positive.

ETA: And a quick check of one particular corner of my fandom finds a frequently reviewed 66 chap fic that has a writer who I can only remember as the one who deliberately refuses to correct a spelling error (hot only has one t and idea is not ideal after all) after it was pointed out frequently and even went so far as to post this lovely gem: "Dearest grammar Nazis. I love you. I really do. You are the people that keep the internet from descending into dark age chaos. Please for the love of god if I grossly misspell or use a word stop me. Correct me. Smack me upside the head with your metaphorical dictionary/thesaurus combo of vengeance. But please for the love of god lay off on the ideal/idea and hot/hott. I implore you. You are giving me a writer's complex that is making me concentrate more on the words then actually writing the story."

Maybe I'm a writing snob, but someone who not only acknowledges that they're constantly making spelling errors and having them pointed out and then deliberately refusing to address them while requesting that spelling errors get pointed out doesn't make me want to read the story. Not that you find that out until 50 chapters of constant spelling mistakes in. With the accompanying "It's hot not hott and idea and ideal are not interchangeable" reviews from multiple people on each proceeding chapter.

So... how does sorting by review count help you find a good fic? O_o;

This site's becoming too gimmicky for my tastes. It used to be just about the stories; now it's all about pictures and numbers. I must confess, the more they add to the site, the less inclined I am to publish here...

You know, people who didn't like your story before won't start liking it now, regardless the number of reviews (i.e. also in case your story is on the very top). Some authors deliberately write what they think will get the most readers - popular pairings, popular plot, etc.. Others, on the other hand deliberately write things that they know are different from what majority likes. That won't change just because of another filter.

So if you like to read popular stories, sort it out by reviews and start at the first page. If you like to read different stories, sort it by reviews and start at the last page. If you like things in the middle, click somewhere in the middle.

I usually use several filters - character, length, status; combined with number of reviews, yes, I think it will help me find good stories.

Again, lots of reviews doesn't necessarily mean popular or good. It just means lots of reviews.

True, but from what I saw in several fandoms, in the stories at first few pages, it usually means popular. :) Which is what a new reader will also think. So he will maybe click on the story and start reading.... which doesn't mean that he will automatically like it. He will increase the hits, that's all.

Why is that such a big deal?

I never said it was a big deal. I just don't see the point in another useless filter option when the site has other problems that should be addressed first - like the problem of destroying punctuation and formatting.

Sorry, I should put that more clearly - I didn't mean you, I meant all those worries I hear from everywhere.

You're right - it's just another filter. I don't think it will have such a big difference.

Favs and followers - those numbers are rather useless. I know for sure that some of people who faved my story have never read it (they told me themselves); and some of the followers are not on the site any more. But a review is a review. It shows that at that time, the reviewer liked the story enough to write a comment (even if it is just a simple 'update soon' - after all, it means he was hooked).

and

So... how does sorting by review count help you find a good fic? O_o;

Don't be so quick to dismiss the value of a statistic based on outlier cases and anecdotal evidence. A few people might indeed fav a fic without reading it, but is it a significant percentage of all people who fav a fic? Is it high enough to dismiss the value of favs and follows? 1%? 0.1% I doubt it.

All that said, high numbers of reviews, favs and followers do not guarantee a good fic.

However, these statistics are not useless as claimed either. You do tend to have a far higher chance of finding a fic you like amongst fics with high values of those. Looking at the most popular fics in my fandom, sorting by fav count, I find at least 5 out of 12 stories that look interesting enough that I would give them read. Normally on a random unsorted page (or sorted by newness) it'd be 1, if I'm lucky.

The very fact they have other people paying attention to them enough to fav/review/respond indicates the story does contain some sort of pull to have garnered that much interest. Whether the pull is positive or negative (hey a flamed story might have high review count too) is up to the situation though.

I personally find it's a combination of those statistics that tell the whole story. A submit-your-own-character fic might have a high review count because all the people who submitted characters will keep commenting, but if few other people read and follow the story, you'll have low numbers of favs and follows.

These stats are not an indicator of quality. They are an indicator of popularity. But I'm not going to the whole quality/popularity debate here... that would be opening Pandora's box on a forum.

I know a lot of people, from several fandoms, who use favs instead of bookmark. For me, yes, it was sufficient enough number to to take favs too seriously - and that was before they became pre-checked. It is nice to get favs, sure. And followers are similar. if I like several stories by one author, then I don't click 'follow the story' any more. I follow the author. So such statistic is also not accurate. Reviews are different, because they show that the person read the story and decided to comment it; and even if they don't follow it any more, it stays there.

But the statistics based on favs and followers are too inaccurate to be useful. That's at least my conclusion. If you find them relevant, go ahead. I don't.

I've been looking through stories in my fandom sorted by reviews or favorites and I just came across one with just five chapters, over 1000 reviews and only 20 favorites.

Checked it out...turns out the whole premise was the main female character had slept with four very popular male characters and the author stated that whichever boy received the most votes (reviews) would end up being the father of her baby. Have to say, totally brilliant way to get attention for one's story.

Actually I'm almost wondering if it was a total troll by the author. Not once in those five chapters is anyone worried about the hardships of teenage pregnancy, the male romantic interest doesn't balk once over finding out his true love has slept with his best friend and worst enemy within days of sleeping with him for the first time and neglected to mention it to him, and the writing is completely vapid and unoriginal. And best of all, the author ABANDONED the fic right before the chapter when the big reveal was supposed to happen, making all those review votes a total waste and leaving her audience hanging for eternity.

As long as the review count isn't the default for browsing, then I don't have an issue with it. It's kinda nice being on the second page of a fandom consisting of 8k stories :)

@Phalanx

If the reviews were rated - or at least marked positive or negative - then I might agree with you. But the difference between a story having 10 reviews - all positive and thought out - and a story having 100 reviews - with mixed positive and negative but many "it's good" type reviews - and a story with 1000 reviews - most negative - can be pretty glaring. However, sorting by review count will list the story with 1000 reviews first.

Also, consider that you can only review once per chapter (unless you go anon). So a one-shot with 10 reviews should be weighted the same as a 10 chapter fic with 100 reviews or a 100 chapter fic with 1000. But they're not, despite potentially only having 10 reviews for each chapter.

And how shall we handle anon spam? I know I've had instances of someone - likely one person - going anon and leaving fifteen "reviews" in a row on a story demanding a certain pairing. I personally don't delete reviews - no matter how stupid the content might be - so those "reviews" are still there. Effecting my count. One person being a troll doesn't make my story popular.

The only result I expect from this change is that maybe the popular fics get more popular. But I expect it to affect their traffic more than their review counts.

By the end of the first chapter, readers will probably know why the fic is popular and will probably be able to tell whether it's good or not. Knowing a fic has 10000 reivews isn't going to make someone like it any more or any less than before. The same people that like and flock to those kinds of stories will continue to do so and those that try to dig a little deeper will also continue to do so.

It's consumerist culture. There's a McDonalds and a WalMart on every corner because they're inoffensive and there's something for everyone and cheap. So why not give them easier access so they have to do less work to get there? (Almost) Everyone knows that the Big Mac they're eating isn't the best burger in town. Everyone knows WalMart probably isn't the best place to go if you want the best designer clothes or high end electronics or whatever. But not everyone is going to like those more out-there establishments, whether you plunk them down on main street or on the far edge of town. They just aren't for everyone.

Useless but fun.

I have five stories on the front page of one of my fandoms sorted by review, which is nice.

None for the other, but that fandom goes in for mega-epics. Nothing I've written can possibly compete review-wise with a story several hundred chapters long.

Edit: And there are 1253 pages of Harry Potter fics with no reviews at all.

@lastpen

Please read my post carefully. I'm pretty sure I never said just having reviews made your story popular. It's a combination of all three stats: Reviews, Favs and Follows that show you the whole picture, and incidentally, solves the anon spam too since anons can't fav or follow.

Also, consider that you can only review once per chapter (unless you go anon). So a one-shot with 10 reviews should be weighted the same as a 10 chapter fic with 100 reviews or a 100 chapter fic with 1000. But they're not, despite potentially only having 10 reviews for each chapter.

I forget other people may not have this add-on. Look up the Google Chrome webstore for an add-on called "fanfiction.net sort by review ratio". It does exactly what you're looking for.

Apply that when filtering by number of favs or follows instead of reviews. It's awesome :D

@Ventisquear

But the statistics based on favs and followers are too inaccurate to be useful. That's at least my conclusion. If you find them relevant, go ahead. I don't

I do :)

I realise it's the mathematician in me rearing its ugly head up, but I kinda like knowing how many favs out of all favs are not really faves and a rough percentage of the error rate before coming to that conclusion.

I mean look at the recent purge drama. 40k petition and suddenly "the entire FFnet is collapsing as all good authors are leaving!". But look at the total population of FFnet, that's hardly a dent in numbers.

Same applies here.

Data is data. All data has error percentages and outliers. As long as you account for that, properly processed data can be useful.

In this case I find having more stats useful, and I prefer to draw my own conclusions anyway, but each to his own :)

(edited, for spelling fail and a few other things, and because highlighting a section of text keeps blanking out the rest of message :( )

Yeah, I switched from Safari to Chrome just to have this addon on my fanfic. _ I miss it a lot when I'm on my iPad.

I still think assuming review count - even with the addition of information like favs and follows (remember one person can do both to a story) - is a valid indicator of popularity isn't a very good idea though.

It's not assuming. It IS how you gauge popularity in statistics. By measuring how many people pay attention/ interact with something. That's what popularity is.

Any 'assuming' would be treating popularity as an automatic indicator of quality, which it is not.

I do agree that I wish they'd fixed the punctuation/spacing eating and the annoying bugs while they were at it though. Do the Admins even know it's a problem though, I wonder if enough people have complained directly to them about it.

It is still a valid count, because to have faved it, the story would have had to looked inviting enough for them to be drawn to it enough to click on the link and added it to their faves by hitting 'Go' or 'Submit'. That's already 1 hurdle passed.

You're absolutely right in that it's not a wholly accurate count, because some people read and don't review or fav, and one shots especially suffer from this. we'd be able to see the whole picture if we could include data like hits/visitors. But the day FFnet includes them on the front page I'm shying away from the forums because of the number of writers who will no doubt complain.

However, having these two stats (favs/follow) added in is a far more accurate method then just plain 'Reviews', and an improvement.

On your analogy,

1. One problem I see with your analogy is that we're not looking to compile the average income of the USA here. We're only seeking to isolate a group of people within a certain income level that suits our target market (or in this case find stories that we're more likely to like). If you want to compile the average number of reviews fanfic authors get on FFnet, then yes, that analogy would apply. Here it doesn't. I don't need to account for the poor because they are not my target market and they have nothing to do with my objective for compiling the data in the first place. I am not looking to count the average. I am looking to identify the above average to make my search easier.

2. Instead of using only the data of the wealthy (which the old Reviews-only system was) or people who have just cashed in a paycheck (the latest updated system) I'm switching to basing it off numbers of people in the different income tax brackets and link it to their known net worth. (favs/follows, balanced by review count)

3. Yes, it still doesn't account for the people who lie to the IRS or don't pay income tax because they are too poor, but it's still better than basing it off the Fortune 500 or a random sample for sure.

4. New entries with low counts will not show up in this search, it's true. But nothing's stopping me from checking the 'just in' sections, and given time, they'll garner enough attention to show up.

So yeah, it's not the perfect system and will be still skewed, but that's not enough grounds to invalidate the whole thing either. It's an indicator of which target market it's more likely to yield good results, not a conclusion, but it's way better than what we had.

It won't be perfect, but practically, it's enough to start with before you wade into stories one by one to judge for yourself.

The value of such stats should not be dismissed. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, as they say.

I agree with Phalanx. Any student of statistical science worth his/her salt that the power of number should not be dismissed so out of hand. The numbers and ratios of reviews, favs, and follows do mean something. The thing that is up to debate however is what they 'mean'.

But I guess it's inevitable that some (or a lot) will be ticked off by this new change.

It will be interesting to see if FFnet keeps this change. I remember back a few years ago (4-7 years, not sure), they also have the function to sort based on review count. This function did not live for long. I think it was up there for about a month or two before mysteriously dissapearing. Plus, everytime I tried using it, my browser went super slow. It might be that it was unpopular enough to be scrapped. It can also be that the hardware power of ffnet of that time wasn't up to the task.

I remember back a few years ago (4-7 years, not sure), they also have the function to sort based on review count.

Are you sure? The internet is awfully silent about this and it was bound to make the news on some rant blogs.

The numbers and ratios of reviews, favs, and follows do mean something. The thing that is up to debate however is what they 'mean'.

I'm gonna play with numbers if the feature is permanent. Who knows, there may be a golden ratio or something.

Yup, I'm pretty sure because I was playing around with it a lot. The fandom I was in at that time was Harry Potter. Even at that time, it was already huge and I was a newbie at the whole thing so I used the review count to filter out the more popular stories first. I remembered using it quite a lot and then got irritated everytime my browser crashed because of the sheer strain of categorizing several hundred thousands of fics.

It might be that since it was so far in the past, in a time that fanfiction didn't have as much a mainstream position as it does now that there wasn't web news coverage of it.

Sure, it means something.

But is this really useful? I just did a little check.

Say a story has 770 reviews. That's a lot, in my fandom. It made it to the first page. So it must mean it's popular, right? But this story has 82 chapters (9.3 per chapter). Now, another story from page 3, has 338 reviews, but in 24 chapters (14 per chapter), and the oneshot from the page 45 has 24 reviews. Which one is most popular (leaving the quality out of this)?

Also, how many people will click on 'follow story' in case of oneshot?

I'm not against search by popularity - if someone wants such filter, why not. But as it is now, is rather useless anyway.

It might be that since it was so far in the past, in a time that fanfiction didn't have as much a mainstream position as it does now that there wasn't web news coverage of it.

That would be the time before 2001, which isn't the case. Anyway, if you manage to find someone talking about it, it would be very helpful. I can't seem to find that in old site announcements or on Fan History.

But as it is now, is rather useless anyway.

It is useful for a consumer; helps them decide quicker. For a writer, the raw data may be useless, but its transformations can provide...insight.

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