So I am a medical student and an avid hobbyist writer. What I am asking about is whether or not describing gore in detail would be too much. I know some people that find overly explicit amounts of gore and violence to their liking, but personally, as a future doctor, I have become a bit numb to some of the more 'human' aspects of reaction to gore and blood.

Basically, I am writing this story in the Naruto fandom and I've been writing it for a while now. Since its a story with a somewhat realistic view of ninja life, it gradually started to contain more and more gory bits, which somehow corresponds to my time spent in the dissections' classes and afterwards in surgery.

I don't want my story to contain pure gore and to explicitly concentrate on that kind of violence but I want it to have that 'real life' aspect that seems to be lacking in many stories I have read.

Please help out with my dillema. I am looking for a golden middle or something of the sort and I hope you normal, non-medic folk will help me out :)

Personally I'd love to see more fanfic which has a more realistic take on injury and the medical issues involved.

As far as "how much gore is OK" goes, I'd suggest you look at Maiafay's stories. She's one of the few writers I've encountered whose stories get an M rating for gore and violence.

My personal turnoff comes where a writer starts lovingly describing arterial sprays and so on. I can cope with gore being described as extremely messy, but when I get the feeling the author actively enjoys imagining it? That's where I start backing away nervously.

If you're interested in the interaction between fanfic and medical accuracy, I'd recommend the yahoo group "fanfic_med".

I would say it depends a bit on what your aim for the story is. It is possible to infuse realism without any gore at all, depending on how you imply, and what you imply. Focusing on the consequences of injuries that most people would not think of (complications in healing, how it will affect movement, long-term problems if it don't heal completely etc), will give one type of realism that don't require much gore.

There is one author I know of in my own fandom that writes quite realistically about the medical part of battle etc: Surgical Steel. I don't think she's on ffnet, but her profile and stories on "Many Paths to Tread" (LotR fanfiction archive) can be found here: http://www.lotrgfic.com/viewuser.php?action=storiesby&uid=75 It might help you to look at the way she as approached the problem. Especially the stor(ies) The King's Surgeon

Might be totally different from what you are aiming at, though.

I recently changed my WIP rating to T. Usually sex keeps me in the M rating, but I've resolved not to go there this time. But now I find I'm pushing the envelope with blood, gore, and violence. I've had torture, serious injury, and recently deaths by falling and burning. I'm trying not to be too graphic, but I want the horror of the scene to come through.

I've borrowed a technique from my Senior year Family Life teacher. This woman was in her forties, and notably divorced, and she had the attitude that she'd seen it all. Nothing got to her, and her voice often lacked inflection, whether she was talking about STD's, birth control, or childbirth. I'm convinced that she was the only one who could teach this class, and keep a bunch of eighteen year-old's from snickering and cracking jokes.

The way I write these horrific scenes, is to tell it like it is, but keep it clinical. The character was lying on the cave floor, with obvious broken bones. His blood pooled around him, staining his white hair burgundy. He was alive; his breath rasped from his bleeding mouth, but he didn't have long.

I'm not sure if that goes too far, but I try to tell what happens, without getting too involved. I don't describe the compound fractures, blood spray, convulsing, or gobbets of torn flesh. Oops, forgot this has to be T rated.

I find that understatements and a distant, clinical voice often infuses more horror than actual descriptions. The readers' minds can provide far more horrid images/fantasies than clear descriptions often does.

My prime example is a poem by a Norwegian writer:

Ballad of Hiroshima Town Translated by Esther Greenleaf Mürer

It was a lovely morning

In Hiroshima town,

One summer morn in nineteen five and forty.

And the sun, how bright it shone

From a sky without a cloud,

One summer morn in nineteen five and forty.

.

The little girls they played

Neath the trees and on the grass,

And everything they did just like the big ones.

They dressed their dollies up

And they washed their dollies' dresses

And the women sliced the bread back in the kitchen.

.

And there were many children

Yet lying in their beds,

For this was still an early morning hour,

And the dew lay on the meadow

In the lovely slanting sunlight,

And the crowns had barely opened on the flowers.

.

It was a lovely morning

In Hiroshima town,

One summer morn in nineteen five and forty.

And the sun, how bright it shone

From a sky without a cloud,

One summer morn in nineteen five and forty.

. Jens Bjørneboe, "Vise om byen Hiroshima." Samlede Dikt, 1977, 1995 by Gyldendal Norsk Forlag A/S. English translation 1997 by Esther Greenleaf Mürer

This poem chills me, and tears me up every time I look at it. Even in a somewhat halting English translation (the rhythm in the original makes it even more powerful). And there is nothing he describes that is chilling or horrible at all, other than that we know what he is really talking about.

To me, this disparity between the words being said, and the reality the reader knows is hidden in the words, creates more horror, fear and pity than any amount of described blood. I do agree that a clinical voice also does this, and sometimes that is what the story calls for. I just know that usually it is the very small, unthought of details that brings the horror. Or an off-hand comment.

In an upcoming chapters of my WIP there will be torture. One of those scenes (well, probably most will be told this way) are told through the report written by a healer sat to oversee it. It is therefore factual and clinical, and he does not describe much or in detail, more stating what methods are used, how long it lasted, what treatments he gave, or judgements on whether it could continue or not. Etc. And since it is a fantasy-world, the names for the methods are not always the same as the real world names, even if the methods may have been used in the real world. But what my writing-group said really made the account chilling, was the ending: "The prisoner was awake and aware through it all."

Of course, sometimes you do need the blood and gore as well. I just tend towards finding the allusions more horrifying.

That poem is truly chilling. For me, it's the reminder of children, innocence, and normalcy, and knowing what happens next.

I once saw a reality show following the police. They were sent to investigate a dead body discovered. The camera showed a dead young man, lying on a curb strip, likely the victim of gang violence. What hit me in the scene, was an ant crawling on his face. One ant, that he didn't brush off. To me, that was as real and visceral as any blood or gore--which they didn't show.

Experience vs. innocence is a very powerful theme. It's one of my favourites!

Now on to something simple. When I was in maybe grade 3 or 4, our teacher tasked the class to find a poem to read to the class. We only had the library and the class books as our material to chose from and I happened to come across this one, that the kids were kind of surprised to hear:

The Ghoul

The gruesome ghoul,

the grisly ghoul,

without the slightest noise

waits patiently beside the school

to feast on girls and boys

He lunges fiercely though the air

as they come out to play,

and grabs a couple by the hair

and drags them far away.

He cracks their bones and snaps their backs

and squeezes out their lungs,

he chews their thumbs like candy snacks

and pulls apart their tongues.

He slices their stomachs and bites their hearts

and tears their flesh to shreds,

he swallows their toes like toasted tarts

and gobbles down their heads

Fingers, elbows, hands and knees

and arms and legs and feet—

he eats them with delight and ease,

for every part's a treat.

And when the gruesome grisly ghoul

has nothing left to chew,

he hurries to another school

and waits. . . perhaps for you.

--Jack Prelutsky

As a kid, I was never really chilled by horror or anything, but I did really enjoy the poem itself. I do like trying to shock my readers though. Not to the extent that it would turn out bad or against the rules, but in a tasteful way that would make the reader back away from the screen and just be like "wow..." or somethign to that effect.

That poem is a good example of how explicit descriptions often don't feel as chilling. I liked it, but was no by any means scared by it. And I don't think I would have been as a kid either. Too over the top, so it gets more humourous than scary.

Another example I like to use, is from Lord of the Rings. In the book, we first see a glimpse of one of the Black Riders (Nazgûl) as a hunched figure on a horse. It is cloaked and we can't really see it, but it is taken for a man. It speaks in a hissing voice, asking for "Baggins".

Now, in Tolkien's description, it is very clear that this figure is creepy and dangerous, even though we don't know what it is, and it has not really done anything scary.

In the movie (FotR), we see the gallop out of Mordor, being all scary, and very soon after (when they've found the Shire) we see one of them killing a hobbit, riding him down and killing him with a sword. And that, to me, took away all the scariness of those riders. Anyone can take a sword and kill; that is not the danger of the Black Riders. Trying to show them to be dangerous by showing them killing someone, reduced the horror of the ringwraits rather than increased it.

I think a fun way to give a good chill is to have a normally kind and un-creepy character say something unexpectedly creepy and/or threatening, but have them say it in such a way that it seems natural or nonchalant. For Example.

"I didn't buy the rumors that if you bought soul silver on friday the thirteenth that something terrible would happen. I was greeted with a 'corrupted save' screen after popping the new game in the slot and turning the game on, the only option was yes. I reluctantly continued to play where this supposedly new game and was greeted with the red/blue pokemon intro. When professor oak appeared there was a child next to him instead of a pokemon sprite... Oak had one of his hands on her shoulder and she kept glancing at him fearfully."

Professor oak: Welcome to the world of pokemon, Alan, it's a world of dreams, wishes, and bloody nightmares, don't worry, as long as you avoid the woods at night, you'll be fine...

"When professor oak said that I would be fine, a sort of devilish grin crossed his face...and I noticed the handle of something in his pocket...was it..a knife?"

:3 muehehehehehe good luck sleeping oak fans XD

man I just read some crazy thing that said it's against the law to write 'disturbing content'; Some state laws actually make it illegal to write about things that can freak other people out. Illinois, for example, has regulations against "disorderly conduct," which usually means stuff like prank calling 911, but can also apply to writing "disturbing fiction."

No, it doesn't even matter whether you make it public or not. If someone reads something you wrote and finds it reprehensibly soul-poisoning, you may face 30 days of jail time and a $1,500 fine.

In Kentucky, writing about a fictional military attack can result in a second-degree FELONY charge of making terrorist threats. And in Oklahoma, a completely made-up story wherein a person gets injured or killed can get you arrested for planning to cause serious bodily harm, the maximum penalty for which is 10 years in prison.

In 2007, a Chicago high school student named Allen Lee was arrested for disorderly conduct over a class writing assignment involving stream of consciousness where the students were supposed to write whatever came to their minds. Instead of page after page filled with "boobs" and "weed," Lee ended up with an unsurprisingly nonsensical jumble of words and phrases, including "Super Mario," "ballet" and four instances of "stab." After reading his assignment, Lee's teacher turned it in to the school officials, who collectively decided that they must expel the straight-A student and have him arrested. You know, before he goes on a writing spree.

Oklahoma high school student Brian Robertson found himself in an even more baffling situation in 2001, when he discovered an evacuation manual on the school computer and used it as a basis to write a story about a commando attack on his school. When his teacher discovered the story, Robertson was immediately suspended and arrested under the Oklahoma statute preventing "planning acts of violence." Though in the end the case was thrown out, Robertson missed a year of school and was fired from his job, which you may notice leaves him with both the knowledge and the motive to carry out his fictitious assault. Read more: 6 Laws You've Broken Without Even Realizing It Cracked.com http://www.cracked.com/article_19450_6-laws-youve-broken-without-even-realizing-it_p2.html#ixzz27dcuxNkk

Nothing like the Thought Police in telling us what is okay to think about...

The freedom of expression (all rights laws not withstanding) is one of the greatest human attributes...

Sure there is going to be some seriously disturbing content out there but limiting it, is still limiting imagination... If everything was sunshine and rainbows, we'd be a very vapid species...

Am I the only one who finds it funny that people think overly descriptive violence is a crime against nature (IE fictional military attacks involving real places etc like those mentioned above) but PEACE AND LOVE SPREADING FRIENDSHIP BASED BEAR CHARACTERS that OBLITERATE enemies just by STARING at them is perfectly OK ?

Also....Five "teenagers with attitude" who frequently dress up in brightly colored suits to fight bad guys...?

Oh....and a Ninja who acts nothing like a ninja....

And lets not forget four MUTANT turtles....yeahhh.....

Apparently if you're a big enough company the laws mentioned above don't apply to you ._.

Cathrl: imo no, I was talking about MMPR :3

You know, that corny show that usually had RACEST (IMO Black person as black ranger, Asian person as Yellow ranger lol WUT?) as well as a lot of soft censored crude humor. (Stuff that Animaniacs got away with) as well as usually consequence-less violence all in the name of 'saving the day' :/ Oh and did I mention they always get credit for this too DESPITE causing milions of dollars of property damage in literally every episode? lol I also like how convenient it is that they all study a sport which promotes good sportsmanship and healthy lifestyle....and the art of self defense....

One thing I also hate is the 'never say die' mentality in tv shows. Not so much for shows meant for the youngerset (IE: Care bears for instance... or nobody wants to see barny die from tripping on his big ** feet.) but for a show that's meant for young adults? I'm a bit forgiving as far as main character syndrome goes (depending on how it's handled) but if I actually see a character die, with all the other characters mourning their death, and possibly growing stronger through the loss of said character. I do NOT want to see said character make some remarkable recovery next episode or even an entire season apart from when they died.

Now this is acceptable when handled well...but if it's handled the way Kingdom Hearts handled Goofy Dying....forget that **! Seriously, they ** micky mouse off enough that he got VENGEFUL(However briefly) and I'm talking MICKY F*CKING MOUSE! lol The guy that is usually all happyness and rainbows and 'hi everybody' all the time. It's different with Sora, because he's a human person, let alone a kid who hadn't seen a friend die before. I'm not saying cartoon characters should be emotionless...but this is a character we don't expect to see vengeful...know what I mean? Did I mention that goofy later appears and it's somehow that he was just knocked unconscious ....

Now like I said, there are a few exceptions to the never say die mentality. I'm a bit more forgiving with main character syndrome, if it's explained logically within the series. However, a character dieing in one instance and then being all 'hey guys I'm back' in the next episode, with no rhyme or reason, and things going on like they used to, is simply unforgivable, especially with a big dramatic death scene or something similar.

Oh and one more thing, here's one for you SEGA. =_= ** AND MAIN CHARACTER SYNDROME DO NOT MIX!!

*clears throat* sorry....but really....they could've at least had her attempt cpr first....

Re: "Never-say-die" MLP season 2 had a great inversion of that. All the ponies got 'flipped' so they're showing the worst of their traits except for the lead MC, who is trying to re-use the same "let's get all the ponies to use their artifacts to kick the baddie!" recipe. They gritch, they gripe, but they follow along. "The sooner we get this over with, the sooner I can lose you lame-os!" All the artifacts, all the MC ponies are in one place and fails.

Re: Gore and Violence (the original topic, though threadjacks here seem ubiquitous)

As someone said, less is often more. Hiroshima is an event of unthinkable horror, so it works very well in the poem. On a lesser scale, it may be more difficult to convey.

Writing in too much detail leads often to purple prose. The sin of purple prose, at least in my eyes, isn't that it's florid or flowery or even adjective-leaden. For me, it's that it gets in the way of the flow. I want to be able to take the story in smoothly. I don' t want it so Rick-and-Jane simple that I can just scan it - I'm willing to put effort into truly reading it, but when I read something, I don't want it to veer off into parts that seem like the author is just showing off.

The same, unfortunately, may also be true with going clinical. If it's too technical, it may lose the average reader. If it's too artificial an introduction, it may seem amateurish. If it's too long (and technical writing is never brief!) it may bore people.

There are no right answers. I often use a 'mirror' and don't show the gore, but show people's reactions to it. That's a cheat, a transparent one. Sometimes I say "eff it all" and just show the blood and violence.

My biggest problem isn't my qualms about either having violence in the story, nor if to show it to the reader or not. It's my difficulty creating the 'ordered chaos' of battle, either one-on-one, or massed armies. Actually, massed armies are easier - there's fighting, there's confusion, then both sides claim victory. :) Or, one side is clearly the winner when the dust clears.

At the suggestion of a member of this forum that is reading certain scenes from a few of my stories and rating them I'm posting a few questions. I'm concerned about exactly how much is allowed under the T rating without going M. And I'm not talking in terms of sexual content. My concern is violence, blood, guts, torture, etc. You get the picture. I've read the ratings guide several times bakwards and forwards and the guidelines are ambiguous at best.

"Some violence? Minor Suggestive themes?

Anyway, in one story a character opens a stasis pod and finds his sister dismembered. Afterwards that the character (who has gotten very drunk by this time) tries to commit suicide by shooting himself in the head . He isn't succesful but I'm wondering from this breif description M or T? In another story a character attempts suicide with pills and alcohol. In general is suicide a M or T theme?

Also in another story a twelve year-old is threatened with death twice (including have a weapon put into his mouth), the same character is tortured (waterboarded), and another character attempts to cut his finger off. M or T?

In one story there is mention of domestic violence and child abuse . Are these themes M or T?

p.s if any of the questions I asked go above the rating for this category, feel free to tell me so I can edit my post appropiately. Thanks

Note: the guide and its guidelines are not from this site, they are ffrom an external site. As other folk have written here, the difference between M and T is more about how detailed and graphic the content is, not just what the themes are. Suicide is a serious issue amongst teens and therefore should be able to be addressed in a T rated story. However a description of it would almost certainly rate as M, any graphic description would be rated MA which is NOT allowed on FFN.

In my opinion, there are two things that shout "M" to me about you scenario: gore (guts, blood etc.) and that it happens to a twelve year old. I think that a hard-hitting war/conflict context, where an abult, albeit maybe only 18, gets tortured but is not described in any detail could well be rated T, but not a blood & guts betrayal of a 12 year old being tortured.

My stories have themes such as domestic violence (mainly emotional abuse), forced marraige and the like. I write these mature themes so deeply buried that nobody ever notices, and can rate many of my stories K plus and T. If the fandom revolves aroung a K rated story of regicide and attempted child killing (its The Lion King by the way!) then I have no problems with incorporating the sort of themes that I do into my stories. That doesn't make them a hack and spurt-fest however, far from it.

I inquired about this once, and from that inquiry I got the impression that my own scene was t-rated. It involves a teen on a battlefield, receiving minor burns, getting shot with an arrow, and bleeding out.

I wonder, if a scene where a younger kid is bleeding profusely a knife wound, and his assailant trying to cut off his finger, is much different from that. There may be a more profound description of blood, the element of cruelty, and the fact that the kid is twelve (?) rather than seventeen, but It's hard for me to say how much these factors weigh against the rating. I can definitely think of more grissly scenes, more brutal depictions of violence.

Furthermore, just how much blood, is too much blood? There's everything from a light scratch, to getting your neck cut and severing one of the jugular veins.

Anyone else here seen Hostile? :P

For writing gore, I think it depends entirely on context and whether or not it's necessary to the story or thrown in solely for shock and disgust value no matter how well or realistic it's written. There is a point where it becomes gratuitous but for each reader, I think that point is subjective and individual. Vivid and detailed descriptions of torture and violence (i.e. describing every aspect of a disembowelment) may put one in the MA category, though.

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