Make yourself at HoME - Can we talk? Forum

Thanks. Seems like they use the Gondorian reconing as the correct one, and it indicates that it will be the most widely acsepted. However they did not point me to any Tolkien-source that gives the specific date. PoME has one year, but that is in a draft that must have been changed, since it says that they were married in 3022, or the first year of the Fourth Age (clearly following Shire-reconing). So there seems to be some uncertanty still, but it is good to see what others considder most likely.

Edit: Gah! I checked EoA to see if they had anything to say, and they say 3021. Back to squre 1

Edit 2: I've goten a copy of the 2004 anaversery edittion, and there 3021 is stated to be the last of the Third Age with realtive clarity, so I guess I'll go with that.

#102 Feb 16th, 2:36pm . Edited Apr 11th, 1:53pm

The-Worlds-Naneth

Hello,

I'm currently writing a LOTR version of the Prince and the Pauper and I need some help with the title and names. Currently the title is: The Princess and the Pauper, but I have been told that this does not sound very Gondorion. Also, does the sirname have any differance to the first name/s? I mean, is there any rule for sirnames that makes them differ?

Thanks for you help!

Yours

The-Worlds-Naneth

#103 Apr 14th, 9:43am

erunyauve

Currently the title is: The Princess and the Pauper, but I have been told that this does not sound very Gondorion.

I don't see why. It tells the reader to expect a story based on The Prince and the Pauper, and neither term is incongruous with Tolkien's world.

I mean, is there any rule for sirnames that makes them differ?

Sindarin is the native tongue of royalty in Gondor, so the surnames would be patronymics; ie Boromir Denethorion or Arwen Elrondiel (-ion for sons, -iel for daughters). For your pauper, Westron would likely be the native tongue. I don't think Tolkien went into much detail there - we only have the Hobbits' surnames as examples. I don't think you could go wrong with something like 'Borgo, son of Mardan', however.

#104 Apr 14th, 11:01am

I guess it is the 'pauper'-part that is slightly un-Tolkien. It comes from Latin, and he avoied Latin and French-based words as a rule - at least in LotR. "Beggar" would sound more Tolkieneque I guess.

I don't have much to add on the surnames or sirnames - I am not familiar with the expression; is it when you take the father's name, add 'son' (or 'daughter') and use it as a name? If so, Tolkien seem to use "son of" himself in the text of LotR so following that won't be off though there are other ways.

If your pauper comes from around Bree, you can use 'normal' surnames like the Hobbits have. They seem to the the only ones that had though.

#105 Apr 14th, 1:00pm . Edited Apr 14th, 1:02pm

Okay friends, another question for you to ponder.

I'm writing a 4th Age Valinor tale (Echoes of Shattered Glass). I have 'reborn' several deceased elves who will play parts in the tale AND are ancestors of other characters.

My problem is, what do I call a character like Fingolfin (he is Elrond's great great grandfather or his children's great great great grandfather).

I can use words like 'forefather', 'ancestor' or just stick with 'father' or 'grandfather' and not be concerned with the precise relation of the characters. By the same token, what would Fingolfin call Elrond - 'son'?

I'd like to hear what others think.

#106 Apr 14th, 6:02pm

Hi Epi,

Tolkien used words like "longfather" to describe ancient relations. Fingolfin might call Elrond "my son," in the same spirit that Elrond called Aragorn his son. Elves don't seem to have bothered with nomenclature for relatives - remember how Celeborn called Aragorn "kinsman?" I'd say either "kinsman" or "my son" as a form of address for Elrond, and "my father" or "my lord" for Fingolfin.

#107 Apr 15th, 1:52am

That's what I thought. I was checking on Aragorn/Elrond since they are sort of in a similar relationship situation (albeit many times more distant). I like longfather as a reference word but I'm not sure I like how it sounds if someone were to refer to a person directly (face to face) as their longfather - I'll have to look at it in dialogue and see how it feels. kinsman, son, father would work as long as I'm consistent. My major concern is confusing those not familiar with The Silmarillion. If I start calling/referring to Earendil, Dior, Fingolfin, Turgon all as 'father' people are going to be a bit confused. I guess I can send them to wiki for the precise relationships.

#108 Apr 15th, 6:40am

You certainly could, or you could write the explanations into the text, scattering the details in as you go. I know you are skilled enough to do this well. Some readers have told me they find it a bind to stop reading the story for a moment, go to the bottom of the page to read the notes, then make their way back to the bit they were reading before they saw the (1) or whatever. A general note at the bottom of the page to refer to research sources would be helpful, but the details should ideally be explained in the text.

#109 Apr 15th, 7:07am

I never put embedded footnotes in my stories (have YOU ever read a novel with footnotes?)- that's just annoying. What I meant was an author's note at the bottom telling people to look at the House of Finwe wiki for more details on exact relationships the very first time Fingolfin and Elrond interact. People who know their exact relationship won't care, those who do can take a minute to see that he's not really his father but his father times 4. I'll make it clear in the dialog that 'dad' is actually someone else.

#110 Apr 15th, 7:15am

Good plan. I have had to wean myself off of the embedded footnotes thing. It took a while!!

#111 Apr 15th, 7:16am

Honestly, I've never understood why people do that. I don't think I've ever read a novel that did that (with the rare exception of an annotated version of The Inferno). I mean, really, if people are reading your fanfic that means they should have a basic grasp of canon. If you go over their head with something it's up to them to ask you or to find out on their own.

#112 Apr 15th, 7:24am

Ah, but most of them can't be bothered - they just want to read a story. When I wrote "The She-Dragon of the Shire," I had to put in stuff about pipeweed, since Hobbits don't just smoke it, they grow the stuff as well. I added general notes at the foot of the page to explain where I had got the information from. Yes, it was the usual suspect, Wikipedia.

I know very few people who do what they should. Most people just do what they want to.

#113 Apr 15th, 7:27am

See, from a teacher-perspective - I don't have time to coddle lazy people. I think the key concepts in my stories are pretty well explained within the text, and I'm happy to add a quick note or direct people to a wiki page for more detail, but I'm not about to give them an hour long lecture on the History of ThisandThat. If they really want to know they can do the work. It's not my job to give them Cliff's Notes to Tolkien's world. Plenty of other people have already done the job for me - go look up stuff in the 57 Tolkien databases.

#114 Apr 15th, 7:31am . Edited Apr 15th, 7:36am

You are correct, of course - I was just being cynical!

Could you give us details of these valuable databases, please?

#115 Apr 15th, 7:37am

I think many of them are already on here, no? I can always re-link them.

#116 Apr 15th, 7:41am

This is what we have so far, culled from earlier posts:

Usually, I look up stuff on Encyclopedia of Arda, Annals of Arda and Tolkienwiki.

http://www.ambar-eldaron.com/eng-quen.pdf - or The Council of Elrond's language section - http://www.councilofelrond.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Content&file=index&action=ViewContent&cid=31

For Elvish, I usually go here: http://realelvish.kagirinai.com/

-It has a dictionary, names, and plenty of information.The owner of the website is is known as dreamingfifi on FF.Net

Stuff on Middle-Earth: http://fin.yserve.net/layers/html/main.shtml

-an extremely informative site.

http://www.istad.org/tolkien/index.html

-a number of essays about certain issues of Tolkien's world.

Martin Martinez's essays: http://www.merp.com/essays/MichaelMartinez/

#5 May 07th 2007, 2:43pm

http://home.netcom.com/~heensle/lang/elvish/elvish.html

Sindarin Phrase book at Merin Essi ar Quenteli (and only the elvish there!): http://realelvish.net/sindarinphrasebook.php

This site is run by dreamingfifi AKA Navaer Lalaith. The elvish is pretty sound, though I've heard some comment there are some issues with it. But the canon information at this site is problematic in Navaer presents her personal interpretation of canon as canon fact, such as pushing the Noldorin customs in LACE on all the elves, even the Moriquendi, among other questionable facts.

The Thain's Book: http://www.tuckborough.net/

This site is easy use for looking up canon things related to LOTR. It gives references to where the information can be found and utilizes HoME as well as UT, The Silm, LOTR and The Hobbit.

The Elladan/Elrohir factsheet: http://www.ansereg.com/elladan_and_elrohir_factsheet.htm

Canon No! It's Fanon: http://www.ansereg.com/elladan_and_elrohir_factsheet.htm

This is a really good site that allows the author to make up their own mind based on canon

Travel Routes and Times in Middle-earth: http://www.theoriginalseries.com/traveltimes.htm

Very helpful for figuring how long it takes to get from point A to point B. A good understanding of ME geography or at the least, a good map, is helpful.

Why to not use random Elvish in your story: http://nurvingiel.bravehost.com/RandomElvish.html

I don't completely agree with this essay as people will often slip words from their 1st language into a 2nd when speaking. My biggest problem with Elvish in stories is when they are all elves speaking, and we know they are speaking elvish and it is very annoying to scroll down to find the translation. However, in some instances, there isn't a better word in English. Long phrases of Elvish where the reader has to scroll down then back up are to be avoided at all costs!

The beginning chunk of LACE that deals with Elven biology and aging: http://groups.msn.com/IntheLandofMordorwheretheShadowslie/lawsandcustomsamongtheeldar.msnw

A Chronology of the Silmarillion: http//mywebpages.comcast.net/mithrandircq/Silmarillion-Chronology.htm

The Sindarin Name Generator: http://elffetish.com/sindanames.html#start

This is a site you must read to learn how to use, but once you have, it is a great tool!

Parma Eldalamberon 17 has some interesting bits for non-linguists. You can order it from the Parma Eldalamberon website - it's $35.

Some of the highlights: we finally have Tolkien's etymology for Thranduil (the name means 'vigorous spring') and Sauron's original (pre-seduction by Morgoth) name was Mairon (pronounced 'Myron'), meaning 'Excellent one'. There are some ruminations regarding the Silvan Elves and their language (though the same information is better rendered in Unfinished Tales, and there is a contradiction with LOTR regarding the Avari), and some discussion of Elven settlement habits.

For those interested in language, we get some new words (or new roots of existing words) and grammar, not only for Quenya and Sindarin but for the Black Speech, Khuzdul, Westron and Rohirric (though the Rohirric looks to be the Old English equivalent of the language rather than the actual language). There is a wonderful history of Sindarin's development from Beleriandic dialects. All of this is post-LOTR material - these are Tolkien's notes on the words used in LOTR, so it is quite relevant for those who want to 'use' the languages in fiction. (I should note, however, that there are also many contradictions, and in some cases, we have later sources that show a change of mind.)

The Tolkien Meta-FAQ at http://tolkien.slimy.com/

Magic in Middle-earth http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/MagicEssay.html

Tolkien Essays main page http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/

Principles of Tolkien's Magic http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/lordoftherings/magic/principles.html

A Catholic Perspective: Women of MiddleEarth http://www.mythictruth.com/MainPages/Women_of_Middle_Earth.htm

There is a geneology at the Thain's book under all of these characters if you scroll down to the end of their biographies.

The Thain's Book: http://www.tuckborough.net/

Pippin: http://www.tuckborough.net/pippin.html

Merry: http://www.tuckborough.net/merry.html

Frodo: http://www.tuckborough.net/frodo.html

#117 Apr 15th, 7:55am

I'll only add my favorite desk reference:

Timeline of Arda: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Arda

#118 Apr 15th, 8:00am

Thanks, Epi. Richard is home now, and wants the computer. Will see you later. :D

#119 Apr 15th, 8:05am

I know I would find it confusing to read about Elrond calling anyone other than Eärendil "father", to me it would be better to go for "grandfather" as that seems more of a general term to me.

The only one that can get away with footnotes in a novel is Terry Prachet. A/N in the begining or end is fine, but even there I tend to be anoyed if the information is too basic.

I don't completely agree with this essay as people will often slip words from their 1st language into a 2nd when speaking.

Have not read the essay, but from my own experiece I don't do that. I slip in English words when trying to speak German, but not Norwegian into English. Only exeption is when I try to explain something about a Norwegian word that can not be translated, but not apart from that.

#120 Apr 15th, 8:52am . Edited Apr 15th, 8:55am

erunyauve

As a mad footnoter, I have to disagree when it comes to Tolkfic. In most fandoms, you have a single, established canon based on books to which everyone has access. With Tolkien, however, we have a ton of additional sources in his unpublished work, and more being made available every year. (For example, did you know that PE 17, released last year, completely blew away the long-held theory that Gildor Inglorion is Finrod's son?) Some items are no longer in print and others are quite expensive and may not be available in all countries.

I do expect that my readers have read the Silm, but I can't assume they know HOME or have all the scholarly journals (and I never trust secondary sources like Wiki or the Encyclopedia of Arda - I've seen too many errors). If I deviate from the Silm to use something out of HOME (as I often do), I want my readers to know why I've done it. Moreover, I want to give readers the reference so that they can look it up for themselves, because my interpretation is not the only possible reading of a passage. (One complaint I have about Michael Martinez is his failure to include footnotes. He does make mistakes on occasion, and I think we can all agree that an essay should include its references.)

I also see fan fiction as educational. I *do* have nearly all the primary material that has been released by the estate, and I spend a lot of time researching. I have knowledge and I want to share it - I don't want to write only for the handful of people who can come up with Cirdan's original name without thinking. I want people to know that there *is* a backstory here, and if they want to know more about Cirdan's early life, this is where they'll find it.

#121 Apr 16th, 12:06pm

Thanks, Erunyauve. Having read your stories, I concur with your assessment that footnotes are necessary sometimes, particularly when citing sources of research. That is actually when I elect to use them.

My research sources for people's names and things like Tobacco manufacture are usually explained in footnotes.

#122 Apr 16th, 12:20pm

Hi erunyauve,

I hear your POV but I'm not sure I completely agree with you.

I don't really feel that a story should require major footnotes. If it does, then you haven't told the story properly. For example, I presented one of Galadriel's original names in a story and made it very clear (without footnotes or boring exposition) that it was also her name. That's just the way I feel it should be done. IF you have a huge backstory you want to explain for a oneshot or short story where you don't have a lot of space for things, then you may simply have to put a note at the beginning or end to 'catch people up', but embedded footnotes in a huge novel are more annoying than learning a character's history a little bit at a time as the story unfolds. It only indicates to me that the writer doesn't know how to work the important material in without interjecting their own voice. I have actually stopped reading stories for this very reason. This may be a personal preference, but I don't think I'm alone in feeling this way.

As far as canon is concerned, I think the people who quote from HoME are a bit insane, myself, and I certainly don't expect anyone to have every paragraph of all published works read and memorized. I also don't think who Gildor or Gil-galad are related to makes a bit of difference to a well told story. You can put them anywhere on the family tree you like so far as I'm concerned, as long as you tell me a great story about them that fits within the framework of their characters and what we know about them from the novels - which isn't much. If you want to add some facts from the HoME, be my guest, drop a note that you're taking info from the following books if you want to cover your **, but there really isn't a need for much more than that.

I do agree that you should tell people where you are taking your facts from in case they care. If they really care and want details you can point them to lines in paragraphs, etc. but honestly, the only people I've met that get that obsessive are the people who already own and have memorized every work of Tolkien in existence. When I wrote Glorfindel as the 're-born' Gondolin fellow I made a brief note at the bottom that I was taking that from PoME for those who cared. There was no need to write an essay about it.

I also think that anyone who believes there is a 'right' interpretation of Tolkien's writings is off their rocker. This is why I get a bit confused when people say the info in wiki or EoA is wrong. It's not wrong - and I think that the wiki and EoA are great places for newbies to start. The articles aren't perfect or complete and they won't tell you everything. They don't contain false information so much as they just don't always contain all 50 versions of what happened during a particular event. For someone new to the world, the 20 paragraphs of semi-complete information is more than enough as a basis for reading fanfiction.

This is all my opinion of course and each of you are welcome to your own. Maybe you guys just have more patience and concern for minutia than I do :)

#123 Apr 16th, 12:45pm

I personally like minutiae, but each to her own!! :D

#124 Apr 16th, 1:00pm

erunyauve:

In essays, and when refering to resarch in an A/N, I do agre that references should be given. If footnotes is the best way to do that, then I have no objections to footnotes. But not in a story, and especially not if the information is basic. With basic I mean easily availabe in LotR, Sil or The Hobbit.

But in the text of the story itself, I find it distracting. If there is something I wonder about, then I will not mind (in fact I would welcome it) an A/N at the end giving me information about back-story, or where I can find it. Or an explanation as to why a variation from HoME or UT is used insted of the more commonly known of the three books listed before. But if the story is well-told, I will not mind different variations, or AU-elements; they will be justified by the story itself and my wanting to know is only the result of my thirst for knowledge of anything Tolkien. And there I too prefer primary sources as I have also seen things in EoA that I have wondered at.

But I am too fond of discussing Tolkien, and too would easily end up with over-long A/Ns or in canon-diskussion with authors I review. (Something I have found is not to popular.) Footnotes distracts me because I want to know what the note says and if it can tell me soemthing I did not know, and then I scroll up and down and loose the flow of the story. There are far better places to learn and discuss Tolkien than in a fanfic, so though I will jump at any adittional information, it sidetracs me from what I really came here for: stories. That is why I don't want footnotes in the story itself. Besides, one of my professors said: If you can't say it in the main body of the text, then it is not worth saying. He wanted footnotes in essays to be short, preferbly only references to quotes or pharaphrased sentences. A bit rigid, but he had a point.

That said, I am one of those insane people that would quote HoME at times. And I am anoyed that EoA don't give references to their articles.

#125 Apr 17th, 4:40pm

I am one of those insane people that would quote HoME at times.

I mean insane in a lovable, eccentric way, Rag :) I actually have a forum for my stories so the people who want to ask questions or discuss their thoughts on my take on Tolkien's canon can post. I haven't had many questions, maybe I will for my current story since I'm exploring uncharted territory.

I also wish EoA had references.

#126 Apr 17th, 5:33pm

Sometimes you can do it, sometimes you can't. Footnotes v. inserting information in the text. Epi asked me about the fact that Morgoth uses an archaic form when speaking, while the other characters don't. In one of the stories I wrote about him, I explained it in the text, but in this one I couldn't find a way to do so. Therefore I made a footnote, but it was only one...

Lesson learned: only a person who is following my series would know that I usually write Melkor/Morgoth as speaking in archaic English. He does it because it makes him remote from his servants and it has religious connotations for the rest of us. The casual or occasional reader has to have this spelled out, and that's fair enough.

#127 Apr 18th, 10:45am

I have a new story idea, but I'm not sure whether it will work. It's an AU fic.

Is it possible that someone managed to smuggle a silmaril or a jewel of power out of Tolkienverse (because s/he was ordered by the Valar to protect it and prevent it from falling into the hands of anyone who could use it for evil), and into our Europe, where s/he meet the Saxons in Germany.

The Saxons get to witness the jewel's power, once, and then they start worshipping it, even though they don't really know what it is since it's inside some sort of box-thing, and the jewel's guardian (i.e. whoever smuggled it out of Tolkienverse) isn't about to tell them what it is exactly.

I want to use this as basis for a story set during a later period, but would it be too incompatible with canon? It's going to be labelled AU.

Also, would it be possible for a man in the third age to know something about jewels of power?

I know I'm getting longwinded, but one last question: If I can't have a jewel of power, is it possible for some other powerful artifact to be used in its stead?

#128 May 30th, 9:12pm . Edited May 30th, 10:07pm

Hi Rulz - some thoughts

Is it possible that someone managed to smuggle a silmaril or a jewel of power out of Tolkienverse

I'd have to say no, the only way a Silmaril can land in Europe is if the one Maglor threw into the ocean washes up on shore somewhere. The second fell into the center of the earth and the third is now a star.

would it be possible for a man in the third age to know something about jewels of power?

That depends on what type of info you want him to have. A common man might know a myth. A scholar of Gondor could know some more elf history but would probably consider it all tall tales. Remember, even the Valar didn't know how the jewels were made so what a human ages later would know is very limited and would be mostly legend.

#129 May 31st, 12:05am

Thanks, Epilachna. Would it be all right then if I used a lesser jewel which somehow survived and someone got it into Europe? I'm going to have Tolkienverse and Europe as different dimensions.

The man I had in mind would probably be a Greek or Roman scholar, who heard about the jewels, and was interested in them so he did some research. How much information would he be likely to find? Would he be able to read/hear about the wars in which they were involved, or would he just hear of their existence?

#130 May 31st, 2:00am . Edited May 31st, 2:01am

Hi Rulz,

welcome aboard. :D

What about a Ring of Power? In FOTR, Gandalf says there are many Rings of Power in this world, and none of them should be used lightly. It's possible that a powerful sorceror made such a Ring and then it was lost after Valinor was separated from Middle-earth. One of the Blue Wizards?

I personally believe the Arkenstone was a Silmaril, because it behaves like one - glowing with its own light and all. If some cavers were to discover Thorin's tomb and the Arkenstone, you could have some real fun with that.

You could also have some dredgers dig a Silmaril from the seabed when going for shellfish or something - that will require a bit of research, but I believe you can pull it off. Once you have decided where you are going with your story, put it in Plot bunny Stew and we'll give you a hand with it.

#131 May 31st, 4:57am

I'm going to have Tolkienverse and Europe as different dimensions.

If they are different dimensions then there is no way a Greek or Roman scholar would know anything about them because it didn't happen in this reality. You are better off working with ME as the ancient past. Valinor, however, continues to exist in another 'dimension' if you like, so if you want a Vala in your tale you can have them realize that some ancient ME mystical object has been found by 'modern' humans and so they come to earth to deal with it.

#132 May 31st, 9:34am

Good call! :D

#133 May 31st, 9:58am

StarSpray

I've got a question about how the gift of foresight manifests itself. Gilraen is supposed to have a measure of it - would she get visions or dreams as a result of it, or...what? That would make the most sense, but I just wanted to make sure.

#134 Jun 01st, 5:00pm

Sounds fine to me.

#135 Jun 01st, 5:19pm

StarSpray

Thanks; that's what I'll do then.

#136 Jun 02nd, 1:51pm

Am starting the research for my new story, The Sorceror of Khand (working title - will probably change later). Sharing that research in case others want to use it: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/archive/index.php?t-546.html

N.B. this information is taken from a forum, and I think it's only fair that those who contributed the information should be credited for it.

Gwaihir the Windlord: In RotK it is said that 'great Variags of Khand' fought against Gondor. I know where Khand is; but what is a Variag?

Inziladun: I don't think it is ever clearly stated,but I would assume the Variags of Khand were simply another race of Men as were the Haradrim. They certainly weren't elves,and if they were orcs or trolls it would seem they would have been named as such. Maybe Variag was just the name they had for themselves. Just a thought.

Gwaihir the Windlord: Welcome, Inziladun, to the Downs. You say it is nowhere else stated what they are? Then I would also assume that they are Men; thankyou!

Mister Underhill: For what it's worth, the usually well-researched I.C.E. Middle-earth RPG book makes Variags out to be Men also.

Grand Admiral Reese: Maybe Variag is the name that the Men of Khand give to their soldiers.

Orald: When I read LotR, I think I placed them as some sort of beast. But that might have been something else, seeing as none of you brought that up.

The Barrow-Wight: I always tought they were something like Centurions. Military units of some kind.

HerenIstarion: From the historical point of view, variag was a name that slavs were applying to vikings. There even was such a term as putÜ iz variagov v greki wich meant trade route from Scandinavia to Bizantium. I always thought that JRRT was inspired by that name.

Orald: So would they be something along the lines of a Norse Berserker or what?

Gwaihir the Windlord: I don't beleive that Variags were military units, RK. In the description of the battle of the Pelennor Fields, Trolls, Haradrim, Orcs and Easterlings are mentioned along with the Khand Variags. So I take it that they were a kind of person.

The Barrow-Wight: Well, the Variags of Khand were certainly acting militarily when they were mentioned. But if they were from Khand they were Men.... so why not call them Khandians? Haradrim from Harad, Easterlings from...umm.. the east, Rohirrim from Rohan, Dundlendings from Dunland, Gondorians, etc.

Orald: they do sound like some type of military unit or something of that sort like the Roman Legion. After all the men in the Roman Legion weren't really known as Romans, they were known as the Legion.

HerenIstarion: I doubt that. Suppose you are a German villager in 2th century A.D., and, just walking around you notice legion approaching your village. What would you cry running home? Legion is coming or Romans, Romans are near?

The Barrow-Wight: Centurions! Centurions in the valley! We're doomed!

Orald: The British soldiers were known as redcoats, meatheads are the names of the guards in the tower of london, why can't Variags just be another name for warrior of Khand, it is shorter.

Arvedui: Ok this is just my mind's eye working here, but when I read through the Lord of the Rings the first time so many years ago, I pictured Variags of Khand as similar to the Ghurkas from the Himilayans. A rather elite yet vicious & brutal brigade of military men from Khand. They also were in the army of Sauron that attacked Gondor in TA 1944 when the Wainrider Easterlings also attacked Gondor in the northern part of Ithilien.

Dain: I think HerenIstarion was probably on the right track, guys. Another word that JRRT would have known. I think "the Variags of Khand" could be a phrase akin to "the Highlanders of Scotland" or "the Rangers of the North" if you want something LotR. A group of people, probably warlike, who come from Khand, but are separate from the Khandanese or Khandadhrim or Khandish in general...

Mattius: In the land of Khand, south of Mordor, there lived a fierce folk called the Variags during the Third Age of the Sun. They were allied to the evil Easterlings and Haradrim and were servants to the Dark Lord Sauron. The histories of the West tell how twice the Variags came forth at the bidding of Sauron against Gondor. In the year 1944, with the Men of Near Harad, the Variags fought the army of Earnil of Gondor and were deafeated at Poros Crossing. More than a thousand years later the Variags, with the Haradrim and Easterlings, came to the aid of Sauron's armies from Morgul and Mordor in the War of the Ring. But this was the last time they fought Gondor, for an end came to Sauron's power and so to the alliance between Sauron and Variags, who remained within their own lands for many years of the Forth Age.

Fundin: I think that the Variags were a race or tribe of people. Perhaps other peoples also lived in Khand. It would not be unlike Germany in Roman times...you had the Teutons, Osgtrogoths, Visigoths, Gauls etc. The Variags were just a fierce group of people from Khand who went to war for Sauron. I always imagined Khand to be a place similar to India perhaps.

Hans Markus Rod: In the Unfinished Tales it says that the Variags were fierce tribesmen living on the high-land plataue of Khand. They were men akin to easterlings and people further south in the Harad. during the war of the ring they allied themselves with Sauron and fought gondor as they did when the Wainraiders attacked Gondor 18th century of the third age. I have always imagined the variags as simmilar to Mongols or Arabs.

Lalaith: meatheads are the names of the guards in the tower of london Rofl. They are actually called Beefeaters, but I will think of them as meatheads from now on. As somebody mentioned, the Russians and Slavs knew the Vikings as vaeringjar or Varangs, and the Varangian Guard were the handpicked (Viking) bodyguard of the Byzantine emperor. However, the people of Khand would I think have been the ME equivalent of Asians.

Arvedui: If we're putting it into this world's terms, I always pictured the Haradrim from Near Harad as an arabic nomadic folk with all the desert there. Far Harad is where the darker-skinned Haradrim came from with the Oliphants, and the people of Khand were more Asiatic and were good martial arts fighters. Just how my mind's eye sees them and are images i got since the first time I read the books.

the guy who be short: i also thought they were just a type of men, but i have found evidence otherwise: here is a quote, rotk, pg 829: East rode the knights of Dol Amroth, driving the enemy before them: troll-men and Variags and orcs that hated the sunlight. note that orcs and trolls are monsters, not humans. he didnt put in the haradrim or the easterlings, whom we know are men. so maybe the variags should be classed among the monsters.

Keeper of Dol Guldur: I always assumed that the strange bearded men who appeared with axes during the Battle of the Pelennor were the Variags, and that since they were 'dwarf-like' they were vikings or mongolians, or huns, or something along those lines out of the east invading.

Aule: Variags The people of Khand A little-known people dwelling in the land of Khand, east of Mordor, at the time of the War of the Ring. They were allied to Sauron, and their warriors were seen at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. This is what The Encyclopaedia of Arda had to say about it.

#137 Jun 27th, 11:33am . Edited Jun 27th, 11:42am

More resources:

http://www.tuckborough.net/lands.html

http://www.planet-tolkien.com/board/cat/7/thread/1810/0

Quote: ...Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand, Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues.

- Lord of the Rings, Book Five, Chapter VI: The Battle of the Pelennor Fields

"...new strength came now streaming to the field out of Osgiliath. There they had been mustered for the sack of the City and the rape of Gondor, waiting on the call of their Captain. He was now destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand, Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues.".... "East rode the knights of Dol Amroth driving the enemy before them: troll-men and Variags and orcs that hated the sunlight."

- The Return of the King_, Book VI, Chapter 6:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harad

In J. R. R. Tolkien's fantasy legendarium, Harad (Sindarin: South, in Quenya: Hyarmen) was the name for the immense lands south of Gondor and Mordor. It was also called Haradwaith from the people who lived there; it literally means "South-folk", from the Sindarin harad, "South" and gwaith, "people".

The Men of Harad were also called Haradrim, "South-multitude", or Southrons.

Aragorn's brief description of Haradwaith - "Harad where the stars are strange"[1] suggests that Harad is in the southern hemisphere, as Middle-earth is a globe by the time of The Lord of the Rings and not flat as before the Fall of Númenor.

Harad's tribes were divided — at least in the minds of the men of northwestern Middle-earth — into those of Near and Far Harad, although there were many tribes of the Haradrim, often mutually hostile. Those of Near Harad were brown-skinned, with black hair and dark eyes, whereas the people of Far Harad had black skin.

From the latter part of the Second Age, many of the Men of Harad were dominated by the Númenóreans, as were many other peoples whose lands included a coastline. Shortly before the War of the Last Alliance, two Númenórean lords, named as Herumor and Fuinur, "rose to great power amongst the Haradrim", but their ultimate fate is not recorded.

For many centuries of the Third Age, many Haradrim were still ruled by Black Númenórean Lords, or further north by the Kings of Gondor, but ultimately, the Harad fell under the influence of Mordor, for much of the Age.

Much of Far Harad was a jungle, although there also was a desert. In Far Harad lived animals known as mûmakil, which were elephant-like but larger, and were used by the Haradrim as moving war towers.

Near Harad later formed an alliance — or maybe even a coalition of some sort — with the Corsairs of Umbar, and was involved in a series of continual battles with Gondor over South Gondor or Harondor. Historically its northern border was held to be the river Harnen, but by the time of the War of the Ring all the land south of the river Poros was under the influence of the Haradrim.

One of the leaders of the Haradrim at the time of the War of the Ring bore a standard of a black serpent on a red field, and was slain by King Théoden of Rohan at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields in T.A. 3019.

After the revival of the Reunited Kingdom of Gondor and Arnor in the Fourth Age, peace was made with Harad.

To the east of Near Harad lay the land of Khand.

http://www.tuckborough.net/harad.html

All other information comes from RPG sites.

#138 Jun 27th, 11:57am

I was just wondering, would Feanor have made some of lesser artefacts of power before he made the Silmarils?

Also, would 'Tatharos' be plausible as a name of a maia?

#139 Jun 29th, 2:10pm . Edited Jun 29th, 5:43pm

It seems like noone else have answered, so I'll try my best.

Silmarillion references:

He [Fëanor] bacame of all the Noldor, then or after, the most subtle in mind and the most skilled in hand. in his youth, bettering the work of Rúmil, he devised those letters which bear his name, and which the Eldar used ever after; and he it was who, first of the Noldor, discovered how gems greater and brighter than those of the earth might be made with skill. The first gems that Fëanor made were white and colourless, but being set under starlight they would blaze with blue and silver fires brighter that Helluim; and other crystals he made also, wherein things far away could be seen small but clear, as with the eyes of the eagles of Manwë (The Silmarillion, Of Feänor and the Unchaining of Melkor)

The "other crystals" are the palantìri, I don't recall any other information on the other gems in the Sil, but I might have missed something. There might be more information in The Book of Lost Tales I &II and in The Shaping of Middle-earth but I will need some more time to find it.

'Tatharos' sounds too Greek to me, apart from the Istari (and not all of them if I remeber correctly) the Maiar all had elvish names. But it will also depend on where he got the name; both Valar and Maiar seems to acsept names given to them by the people they are around, and so a Maia could well be called 'Tatharos' by people not belonging to Tolkien's world. The reason the Istari had names that were not elvish, where that they met other peoples.

#140 Jul 01st, 3:44pm

Thanks Ragnelle. I was thinking of having Feanor make a set of jewels which, when separated, are almost useless, but when brought together, can be powerful.

I thought 'Tatharos' sounded too Greek. So it would be fine just to make a Maiar name out of elvish? Would it be Sindarin or Quenya?

#141 Jul 01st, 7:38pm

I daresay Feanor would have used Quenya because he is Noldor, but that's just me. Your "three together" idea is reminiscent of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom - you could have some fun with that!!

#142 Jul 02nd, 11:35am

Thanks, Wendy. I've only seen Indiana Jones and the Holy Grail ;) I just needed a reason for someone to hide and protect a jewel which would otherwise only be a pretty bauble. And I am already having fun just planning it :)

#143 Jul 04th, 1:24am

PurpleHat

The Valar had their own language - Valarin, and their real names are in that language. As Elves found this language both alien and dissonant, they adapted the names into Quenya.

The Ardalambion page on Valarin(http://www.uib.no/people/hnohf/valarin.htm) discusses this. Some of the the Valarin names have quite distinctive forms, which you could base your name on, and then Quenyarise it.

#144 Jul 05th, 10:55am