I've gotten a couple of flames in the couple of years I've been writing for and they have all really gotten to me. Mostly made me sad but there was one that really, really got me angry. I try not to reply to flames(even though I did so once) and I try not to take them seriously. Now I think about it I laugh now at the fact that people acutally took their time to insult me, my personality and how I'm a pain, etc when they don't even know me.

So what do you do when you receive a flame?

So basically flamers are idiots, I mean, hey, if they don't like your stories, they don't have to read them! :)

~ILHH~

2) I write a really scathing comeback.

3) I delete it unsent.

4) I figure that if the only way they could find to say something mean was to make it personal, that implies they couldn't find anything wrong with the fic itself. So, really, it's a compliment.

Which is different from non-complimentary concrit (this doesn't work because...) where I generally do stages 1-3, then I take a good long look at what they said and decide whether they have a point. If so, I get editing. If not, well, we all like different things.

It's important to remember that flamers are most likely people who are upset about something in their lives that has gone wrong, and they unfairly choose to take it out on someone (i.e. you and your story) who they know will not be able to confront them about it (at least not effectively, anonymity on the internet being what it is). This not only makes a flamer pitiful, but cowardly as well.

I have a friend who writes, and when she once got a flame, her only reply to the flamer's long rant was this:

"*YAWNS*"

It was hilarious, particularly because the flamer somehow took offence that she didn't take their "review" seriously, and started sending her loads of nasty emails. And she just kept replying with "*YAWNS*", "*YAWNS AGAIN*", "*DOUBLE YAWN*" and so on. She sent hidden copies of all the emails to me, and we ended up having a good laugh about it over the phone.

So if you don't feel like crying, laugh, and make sure you let the flamer know how much their stupidity entertains you. Not only will the flamer eventually give up, but you will also come across as the bigger person by ostensibly not letting their mean words get to you.

~miss swoon

Online, ignoring it or laughing back at them is probably the best idea unless they do have a viable point, as cathrl said, at which point you might want to brainstorm. In person though, or if you do decide to initiate contact because they do have a point in there somewhere, it's best to stay as polite as you can... and try to get a more civil sort of explanation out of them. Argue if you think you need to.... but don't stoop to their level

Nah, not going to do that, really, that will be beeing just like them. I seriously have more intelligence then them, so not going to descend to there level. You should see the forums, ridiculous stuff is on them. Damned people that do nothing for all of there lives but insult people. Oh, They insult each others mothers all right, and call each other sexual names, and they get to races too. Seriously, I hate the forums. This dude named Kaiser Scott called this other dude the N word. (shivers) Oh, my, and the insulters call each other stupid, and dumb, because they all think they are smarter then others. Truth is all them guys are dumb. Noone there is smart. So I ain't even thinkin of descending there or even trying to get that damn low in intelligence.

Either way, they bump my reviews up... so much the better.

So, that said...sometimes one should look at the flame they received (especially if literate), and wonder...hmmm, why did they flame me? Do they have a point?

Something to consider...

Actually, I've been complimented on my choices for my C2...so I don't understand the hostility toward who I choose...are you insulting based on how I review? Or are you being snide because I have an open mind when it comes to sexual preferences in my C2? Again, not sure on the hostility toward authors who are undeserving of it. I also don't do the one size fits all...I did for a time, but then reverted to my personal reviews...less time consuming and shorter gets the point across.

But, as to that rule number 10 on F/R's list? He hasn't used it in quite a while, and he rarely uses it period. I've only seen bad writing flamed...nothing that was even semi-literate. *Shrugs* To each their own...he has his way of venting over the downgrading of this site, and I have mine.

Several of the stories I've seen flamed did, for instance, use the apostrophe correctly. Their authors had committed the heinous sins of, for instance, running a forum intended to help authors, or being on someone's favourites list, or having caught your lord and master on a bad day. Or, shock, horror, being new, foreign, and not writing perfect American English. Or using childish prose because they're, well, children (plenty of thirteen year olds still are, you know).

The problem there is...most of these "endearing" stories shouldn't have been posted. (And I could argue that 13 is a wee bit young to be here anyway). There is another thread here talking about the Administrators being MIA? That goes both ways. Things are being posted here that have no business on a fan fiction site, and some of us are yes, frustrated. I'm tired of seeing them; I'm tried of wading through them to get to the well-written stories, and this is plain old-fashioned irritation talking. I'm annoyed that FF.net is known as the "Pit of Voles" because of all the terrible writing here. Most of which, goes against the Guidelines.

Some people don't have the talent. I'm sorry to say that, but they don't. You can be nice and sweet to them and give constructive crits--and still, they will scream back at you and lapse into chatspeak or troll. I've had this done to me many times on my real account, and frankly, I'm tired of hand holding. I just tell it like it is now, and yes, while that is mean and rude and so forth, I'm past the point of caring.

I've just been browsing through your C2 and saw a few summaries there that had typos or that were incomplete (i.e. the words or sentence was cut off because the character limit was reached). That's usually not a very good sign for a well written story. I haven't clicked on any of the stories as I don't even know most of the fandoms, so I can't be a judge of that.

But to me cathrl seemed to say that she doesn't think your choices of best fic are actually good fic. That's not an insult to the authors, it's a comment on your judgement.

F/R does use number ten occasionally, as far as I know, he used that one on one of Rhea's fics. That fic didn't "qualify" for a flame under any of the other "rules". If it did, then someone ought to acquaint F/R with the concept of parody.

And I could argue that 13 is a wee bit young to be here anyway

Please, do argue that. FFnet allows anyone of the age of 13 or over to join this site. This is a site where people can show-case the fanfiction they write. 13 year olds write fanfiction. So why not allow them to show-case it here?

Though, ten-year-olds may also write fanfiction, there is also a lot of material on this site that isn't exactly suitable for younger childern and thirteen-year-olds are thought to be able to judge better for themselves what they should and should not read.

Some people don't have the talent. I'm sorry to say that, but they don't. You can be nice and sweet to them and give constructive crits--and still, they will scream back at you and lapse into chatspeak or troll. I've had this done to me many times on my real account, and frankly, I'm tired of hand holding. I just tell it like it is now, and yes, while that is mean and rude and so forth, I'm past the point of caring.

Never did the hand holding thing, never been yelled at in chat speak. Only been yelled at twice for that matter. I don't use a dummy, no stories account for my reviewing. And I do try to tell authors as I see it. I guess I just hang out in more mature fandoms than you do.

I'm referring to thirteen-year olds and the content of this site...plenty of mature stories here that are far beyond a thirteen-year olds mental understanding, and don't argue with me about what a thirteen-year old can handle. I was thirteen once upon a time...if I had posted what I wrote back then, I would expect people to groan and shake their heads. If I had read what this site contains...it would have been more than what I could handle. There are exceptions this...but not many. This is the point I was trying to make.

As for the C2, if I wanted every story perfect...then nothing would be included. Try clicking on the story next time--the few compliments I did receive were based on the fact that they didn't have to know the fandom to read...which I don't need to tell you is a sign a of good story.

Plenty of people have alternate accounts...not just folks who want to keep their stories fairly judged if they critique harshly. You'd be surprised how quickly these authors that you defend will make three or four different accounts just to rant at F/R.

And you know what? F/R actually posted on his forum to leave you guys alone...that you give good tips and that you're a good forum...wow, yeah, what a jack **.

There are really only two things I disagree with about this whole movement or whatever you want to call it, and that would be the stupidity of "Rule #10" and the telling possibly fragile people to go jump off a cliff because I've seen people who write who would take that as the last straw in their life and actually kill themselves.

Otherwise, whatever, I'm not foreign and cannot offer an honest opinion about spreading the site further around the globe other than saying that the administrators long ago bit off more than they could chew. I suspect they gave up a long while ago and are just letting it tend to itself as they try to make it a more global affair... which may bring the whole thing crashing down, or may be the first step towards making the admins actually care and look back to the issues now that they've spread all over the damn place. I mean, we're frustrated by the lack of attention, obviously, not ** off at the German kid trying to write a story off his favorite American tv show for his English class. I would never have the guts to post something in another language myself, but I also don't consider myself even vaguely fluent in an other language. One of the girls I beta for speaks Arabic as her first language, a Scandinavian language as her second (I can't remember which country she lives in right now), and writes better than most college students in English, her third language. She has some issues that I'm teaching her out of, but holy crap, she's younger than me, and I only turned 19 a couple weeks ago.

She's an exception, however, as is the thirteen-year-old I also beta for, who could kick the first girl's ** in writing any day. I understand the want to get rid of the people filling the site with trash that goes against the guidelines... I stopped searching in any fandom regularly years ago. I don't agree with the flaming method... hell, I even stopped reviewing for the most part because people are so touchy about their review scores and won't freak out as bad if I tell them what I honestly think over a messenger, where their pride and reputation isn't at stake. I don't think you get enough bang for your buck when it comes to flaming either, but that's my opinion, and everyone's entitled to their own. **, when I first realized that flaming had become the latest trend I was furious because of a PM a friend recieved, threatening the people in her forum just by association, until we looked into all the posters we could find and located the flames to find that almost all of them had broken the "rules" and so weren't being picked at absolute random and there was no true reason to file a complaint. The internet is freedom of speech embodied, and just as people can post trash, others can say whatever they want about it. That's the risk of putting something out there... and in reference back to the suicidal emo brats that post about in here, it's more just a thought that it only takes one straw to break the camel's back and then look, you're practically responsible for it. Not saying that's common.... but it's a terrifying idea.

Ugh, now that I've made another infamously long post, I want to say I'm not supporting or dismissing anyone... I like being more of a ghost than anything on this site, I've reviewed two stories in as many years because I just walk away from the ones I dislike because it's not worth the time to leave a critical review, and it's not in my nature to flame. I abandoned this site a LONG time ago, the forums just amuse me and I'm trying to actually do a good job on my chapter fic when I have the time, because the ideas won't leave me alone. If you ask me, the flaming in every direction seems to defeat the purpose; the impersonalized attacks will make everyone entirely dismiss the insults in the long run because they've been slapped with a sticker labeled "statistic" instead of across the face like maybe they ought to be, because no one took the time to read (whether or not you did), and Rule #10 makes it possible for any of them to have just caught the FR on a bad day... which of course they all did, because their work is perfectly fine. *rolls eyes* The least you could do if you're going to insist on this ** and you want to copy paste reviews to get through more people faster, is list the violated rules so it has this thing called impact. Without at least some individualization, a flamer just comes across as a fourteen-year-old bully who thinks words like "douche" are endlessly hilarious.

Good grief. I guess there's hope for him yet. Last time I posted something on a forum that he didn't like, he thought thinly veiled threats on my review pages were the right way to respond.

But yeah, what a jackass. What with him being personally abusive and you being condescending, it'll be a wonder if anyone listens to genuine concrit for much longer.

Your C2? Present tense angst isn't my style. (I did try to read several stories on there, none of them were even something I'd bother to read to the end, let alone something I'd consider best-of-site. My personal opinion, that's all. They weren't bad fics. They were just something that, in fandoms where I read, wouldn't be the best even on a single random page.) I think someone who's had a one-review-fits-all review from you saying their work is rubbish (because there are no good points on that cut-and-paste review of yours, only bad ones) should go look at what you consider good writing, and decide for themselves whether they aspire to write like that. I'm not getting at the authors you've selected who've chosen to use that particular style associated pretty much only with fanfiction - it does seem to be popular with the readers in certain fandoms. I'm pointing out that your definition of "good" wouldn't, for instance, make it past the first glance of someone considering publishing it as original fiction. I think authors should consider a review which says "this is not good" based on what the reviewer thinks IS good. Which is another detriment of sockpuppet review accounts - there's absolutely no way to tell whether you and the reviewer just like different styles, or whether they actually have a point. I have some way to tell what you like, because of your C2. F/R? For all I know, his definition of "good" is limited to second person future tense drabbles.

And, thirteen year olds are allowed to post on this site, regardless of whether you or F/R think they're ready. I'm the first to say that they should be told that they write like thirteen year olds and have a lot of work to do, and that they should be able to cope with being told that. I also think they shouldn't be sworn at and told their writing looks like they're five, or condescended to and told which points on some arbitrary list of good writing they're failing on, but not why. Please, come join the people who consider themselves fellow authors, albeit authors who've been around a bit longer and feel they can reasonably say "this is what's good about your fic and this is what's bad", or, indeed "this isn't ready for posting because", not some sort of superior beings who think their judgement of a fic as good or bad is all an author needs. This site doesn't need more anonymous one-size-fits-all reviewers. It needs more people who tell authors WHY their fic has problems, not just that it has them (F/R), or what they are (your standard review). You say you're not doing this any more, and if so then that's great. You come over a hell of a lot better when you don't use the cute persona.

Why shouldn't these authors make a new account to go rant at F/R and/or you? That's exactly what you're doing to them. I just choose not to, and it hasnt stopped my work being reviewed fairly, because it's obvious which are revenge reviews - they have no reference to the fic other than to say it sucks. If someone who I've critiqued harshly decides to point out every bad point in my fic in glorious technicolour detail I would be over the moon - even if they did it out of revenge. Goodness knows, I can't get anyone else to do it. They're all too afraid of being labelled flamers.

I'm sure I read plenty of other books that wouldn't be deemed appropriate, but my parents seemed to think I could handle it and I think they were right. Shoot, Roots belonged to my grandfather, who lent it to my dad, who gave it to me. I would have been thrilled if my two older kids wanted to read something like that. I felt I was lucky just to get them to read Harry Potter. The thing that might be bad for thirteen year olds, is, if fanfic is the only thing they read, it might warp their sense of what is good writing.

That's not a knock at fanfiction, but let's face it, 95% of what's written here would never be published if were original fiction. (I include myself in that percentage). There are some wonderful fanfic writers who could probably be published, and in fact, I know a couple fantastic ones who are actively shopping around for publishers for their novels. (one has a fic here on ff.net. Her penname is inkling--check out her story "Wergild" if you want to see what really good stuff is.)

Hmmmm. It's funny that you should mention that because that's essentially how fictionpress works. Reviews returned, and all that wonderful jazz. If Author A goes to harshly critique Author B's writing, Author B will harshly critique Author A's writing the very next day. I've seen it on the review pages. Page long critiques, going on about how pikes are primarily defensive weapons, about how the idea behind the story is bad and unoriginal, about how names shouldn't be randomly chosen from out of a hat, etc. And then the usual technical aspects of the story: plot, grammar, spelling, writing style, etc. Both authors essentially rip each others stories to shreds.

If someone flamed me, I'd only want to prove them wrong.

Most of the stories I flame are absolute pieces of ***. Honestly. And the reason I flame is so they can take the advice, move on, and maybe become a better writer. Because that's what I do when I get a flame. What is the point in being angry at someone you don't even know, or someone who could be your best friend, girlfriend, boyfriend, etc? There IS no point. So all the people whining about flamers, but not changing their stories so people won't flame them, this is for you.

If you do not take the critiques given to you, you will find reality a very, very scary place. Because, see, you will have to take concrit, and use it for something productive. Grow up, stop whining, and just FIX YOUR PIECE ALREADY! There's a reason you got flamed, so find it and fix it. Because no one wants to read **.

So everyone here who is whining about the flames they got, look at it in perspective. It's FANFICTION. You do not make money. Oooh, the big scary person flamed you, OH NO! Who gives a **? Will you remember them in a month? Doubtful.

Grow up, move on, and stop whining. You ** my friend off, and that ** me off, but I give honest advice. So please. Just deal with your issues and become a better writer.

Ta ta!

Happy Easter.

Faith out.

Flames basically tell an author that he/she needs to work on a story. The flamer may not mean it in that way, but yes, it does tell an author that he/she needs to write better.

Now, if a flamer flames a bad author, all's well. It's fine, because said flamer is basically telling the author that he/she needs to work on his/her story, which would be true if the author is a bad author. No problem with this.

But if the flamer flames a good author randomly, what then? Well, nothing. I don't see what's so bad about it honestly. All authors can improve on their writing, even the published authors. Don't tell me that you can write perfectly, because you can't. Again, the flamer's telling the author that he/she needs to work on his/her writing [even if the flamer just flames you for being on a favorites list]. And it's true. Again, everyone can improve. A good author would do one of two things: a.) ignore it because he/she is confident in his/her own writing ability, or b.) look over the story feverishly to find out what's wrong.

Why do I say that confident writers are the good writers? Because that's commonly true. Confidence shows through the writing. That, and the good author usually gets much ego-stroking through the reviews...Also, good writers tend to be the ones most open to CC.

Point out anything wrong in my twisted logic. I'm sure you flame-adversaries can find something, and I'll be glad to hear it. I'm an openminded person.

What a jackass. What with him being personally abusive and you being condescending, it'll be a wonder if anyone listens to genuine concrit for much longer.

Interesting.

I doubt just because me and F/R the site will dissolve into a bunch screaming, stomping author divas who won’t take a constructive critique ever, ever again.

I’m condescending because most of the stories I had reviewed were written by people/children who like to “yell and scream” when I had given them a “concrit”. Their stories were the “bestest” in the world, and I’d better not insult them!

--Or, I would get the occasional brooding adult who whined when I suggested that they didn’t need to use extravagant words when a small one would have been fine.

And yes, I was nice; yes, I was sincere; and yes, I was helpful…but you know what? Didn’t matter…I still received flack for it, and yeah, I’m a little jaded. Now I’m even condescending on my proper account. The way I see it, they want to write like children, I’ll talk to them like children.

Your C2? Present tense angst isn't my style. (I did try to read several stories on there, none of them were even something I'd bother to read to the end, let alone something I'd consider best-of-site. My personal opinion, that's all. They weren't bad fics. They were just something that, in fandoms where I read, wouldn't be the best even on a single random page.)

I think someone who's had a one-review-fits-all review from you saying their work is rubbish (because there are no good points on that cut-and-paste review of yours, only bad ones) should go look at what you consider good writing, and decide for themselves whether they aspire to write like that. I'm not getting at the authors you've selected who've chosen to use that particular style associated pretty much only with fanfiction - it does seem to be popular with the readers in certain fandoms. I'm pointing out that your definition of "good" wouldn't, for instance, make it past the first glance of someone considering publishing it as original fiction. I think authors should consider a review which says "this is not good" based on what the reviewer thinks IS good. Which is another detriment of sockpuppet review accounts - there's absolutely no way to tell whether you and the reviewer just like different styles, or whether they actually have a point. I have some way to tell what you like, because of your C2. F/R? For all I know, his definition of "good" is limited to second person future tense drabbles.

And you imply that I’m condescending? All I see above is an arrogant, biased opinion intended to mean something to me…that my version of what I consider “good fic” is rudimentary and dismissive.

This is my C2, and I will showcase varied styles, tenses, fandoms, etc. regardless of who visits. It is my intention to provide something for everyone, and if you didn’t find anything to your liking--then you didn’t. Move on to the next C2 or make your own if you’re that particular about what you read. In fact, I don’t recall inviting ‘anyone’ here to look at my C2...if anyone has, then it is their whim--not mine.

To touch upon the publishing comment:

I am the last person you should deride about knowing what publishers look for. Fanfiction is merely a tool to hone skills. Nothing more. I‘m well aware of this. I aspire for publication; I know what they look for, and I know what an author must do to when submitting and developing an original story. I know fan fiction is just painting on another’s canvas, and no matter how well the colors blend--it will never be ours.

Regardless whether or not I make it in the publishing world is my business; I just I want you to know, that I know what the process entails…for the record.

More on that point: if you didn’t mean to insult the authors, then why make a remark about “wouldn’t be the best on a single random page” and this: “I'm pointing out that your definition of ‘good’ wouldn't, for instance, make it past the first glance of someone considering publishing it as original fiction”. That was again, rude and intended to insult--or appeared to insult. It was veiled and subtle--but I did catch it.

*Sighs*

And my C2 isn’t all present tense…how many stories did you click? Seriously. All tenses are represented, and “present tense” is the style of a few--not many. Some stories on that C2 are not my choice and have been recommended by others…so assuming that ‘all’ are a reflection of my personal taste…is unfounded. I don’t normally read Alice in Wonderland; I don’t read 1-800-Where-R-you, Ring/Ringu. I don’t venture often into Lost or the Final Fantasy fandoms. I was including by random category or rec‘s…and will continue to do so.

On the reviewing:

This is why I revised my cut and paste’s to include tips to improve (apparently you haven‘t seen them)…and then refined that even further to reviewing in standard format. And also, some stories ‘had’ nothing good in them to point out. I will not apologize for deflated egos and rivers of tears…every path to a good author is paved in such…and mine is no exception. All you can do is learn and try harder.

I noticed you frequent the crossover section, and I also noted that a few folks didn’t quite like your “concrits” very much either…so not sure why, you are again, being snide to me--when you yourself are very opinionated on what you think should be the "way of things". The only difference I can see, is that you sugar-coat and are more subtle than the average reviewer.

And, thirteen year olds are allowed to post on this site, regardless of whether you or F/R think they're ready. I'm the first to say that they should be told that they write like thirteen year olds and have a lot of work to do, and that they should be able to cope with being told that. I also think they shouldn't be sworn at and told their writing looks like they're five, or condescended to and told which points on some arbitrary list of good writing they're failing on, but not why. Please, come join the people who consider themselves fellow authors, albeit authors who've been around a bit longer and feel they can reasonably say "this is what's good about your fic and this is what's bad", or, indeed "this isn't ready for posting because", not some sort of superior beings who think their judgement of a fic as good or bad is all an author needs. This site doesn't need more anonymous one-size-fits-all reviewers. It needs more people who tell authors WHY their fic has problems, not just that it has them (F/R), or what they are (your standard review). You say you're not doing this any more, and if so then that's great. You come over a hell of a lot better when you don't use the cute persona.

And I like the cute persona…it’s…cute. And I already answered this paragraph in my opening comments. But--I will reiterate. I do constructive crits. I do harsh crits…it depends on what story I’m reading and if I feel there is hope for the author to improve. Not everyone is cut out to be a writer. Not everyone is cut out to be a singer, artist, musician, etc. The arts is an inherent thing, and can be only honed, not taught. You have to have talent.

Now, whether you have moderate talent or very little--depends on the person. Some people will only be that mediocre artist/writer/singer…others will be published and have professional careers. I find it’s the writers who think they have reached the height of their craft are the worst people to deal with in terms of critiquing. They think they got it. They think they can’t improve anymore…and perhaps, they truly cannot. The realization of this I believe, leads to jealousy and general malcontent with themselves and fellow authors. I’ve seen it with Rachel D in the Babysitters Club section concerning a fellow author who was more popular than she. She even enlisted F/R help to flame her rival, and when he refused, she took to copy/pasting his review instead. This is one example, and I’m sure there are more.

Why shouldn't these authors make a new account to go rant at F/R and/or you? That's exactly what you're doing to them. I just choose not to, and it hasnt stopped my work being reviewed fairly, because it's obvious which are revenge reviews - they have no reference to the fic other than to say it sucks. If someone who I've critiqued harshly decides to point out every bad point in my fic in glorious technicolour detail I would be over the moon - even if they did it out of revenge. Goodness knows, I can't get anyone else to do it. They're all too afraid of being labelled flamers.

Then don’t berate me for making another account. Such a vicious circle isn‘t it? And all over fan fiction...

Bottom line: a sign of a persons integrity is how they deal with crits. If they cry, vent, rage, behave childishly, or simply just take what applied to their writing and move on shows how mature an author is. A mature author know how to take crits (flames/trolls)…and many here on this site can’t handle them even if they are worded nicely. So to me, if they can’t handle the reviews, they shouldn’t post their stories at all.

When you post online, you have to prepare yourself for the feedback--both good and bad. I was one of those people admonishing others for the way they worded reviews…but after so many scathing replies to my good intentions--I have stopped caring how I sound to the other person. If they approach me and tell me after I had given a review: that “hey, the way you worded it hurt my feelings”, then I would apologize…but I will no longer sugar-coat anything I have to say to spare fragile egos. If you’re that sensitive…keep your writing to yourself. When I had complained about trolls, people told me to get a thicker skin. When someone flamed me, people told me to see it if had merit. When I had bitched about the way a critique was worded, people told me to deal. No one said, "Aww, poor baby." No one defended me for the very same things I say now to bad writers. But yet, they are coddled? They are patted on the head and told "it's okay, she's just a mean flamer!" WTF?

This is my frustration, and this is why I'm harsh and blunt. I'm not pampering anyone anymore.

Loose ends:

Anyway, since you dislike my “cute” persona, I’m posting a link to my real account here: Maiafay I want to see how many come to rip on my stories out of pettiness. Please, up my review count and give some of that constructive criticism you all so gush about. I want to see what you suggest.

(Note: My fics are all M rated but one...if anyone else feels so inclined to read my stories...please be of age).

And in turn, I’ll take a look at the few here that have engaged in this little discussion…and I would be more than happy to give a detailed “concrit“…or perhaps find a story to add to my “Less than best C2”.

Any other replies to this post can come via PM. I’m through debating on this topic.

Seriously, though,

Temeraire, the flaw in your logic is that your definition of a flame is a bit off the mark. A flame is a review that directs personal insults at the author, tells them their story sucks (without going into specifics) and tells them to stop writing. Some even go as far as to suggest someone ought to kill the author.

That, in my opinion, is not basically telling the author they need to write better.

But if the flamer flames a good author randomly, what then? Well, nothing. I don't see what's so bad about it honestly.

Well, if flames are there to improve bad writing, they lose significance if they also start telling the good writers that their stories are bad. True, any story can be improved upon, but just because it can still be improved doesn't mean it's bad / it sucks / the author needs to jump of a cliff.

If anything, good authors should definitely get compliments on their work, so bad authors can see what kind of reviews a person can get if they write good stories.

The big problem with flames (aside from the insults) is that they don't tell an author how or what they can improve. If the author already knows how to make their story better they probably already would have (although there are loads that know they can't spell to save their lives that think we just have to accept that). So if you really want a story to get better, you should give the author at least a clue of what is wrong and how it could be better.

I don't believe in giving gushing praise either (unless it's truly deserved), because that won't improve the author either. They will know what they did well and keep repeating that little trick to all eternity. Reviews should reflect both what is good about a story and what needs work. And yeah, I know there are a lot of stories out there of which the best you can say is that at least the author has figured out how the uploading function works. I want to yell at stories like that too. Usually, just yelling at it works. Other times I type up a flame and store it somewhere on my computer.

Flames don't serve any purpose for the person receiving them. They are just stress relief for the flamer. Stress relief doesn't require actually sending the flame -- store it on your computer -- so why do you?

---

I was helpful…but you know what? Didn’t matter…I still received flack for it, and yeah, I’m a little jaded.

Yeah, there are a lot of people that think that any kind of negative feedback is a flame (a lot of them are even good writers), but I don't mind explaining the difference to them.

If they approach me and tell me after I had given a review: that “hey, the way you worded it hurt my feelings”, then I would apologize…but I will no longer sugar-coat anything I have to say to spare fragile egos. If you’re that sensitive…keep your writing to yourself.

Very true. If people post here for all the world to see, they should realize that there are also people who might not like, and will say so. They can say what they didn't like, and what they would like better. I draw the line at insults.

Just because you can say anything you want doesn't mean you should.

Temeraire, the flaw in your logic is that your definition of a flame is a bit off the mark. A flame is a review that directs personal insults at the author, tells them their story sucks (without going into specifics) and tells them to stop writing. Some even go as far as to suggest someone ought to kill the author.

And I will quote myself here:

Flames basically tell an author that he/she needs to work on a story. The flamer may not mean it in that way, but yes, it does tell an author that he/she needs to write better.

I did address the issue. Yes, the flamer doesn't mean it that way, but the author should take it in the way of: "I need to write better." It is true for everyone, so I'm not making a false statement. Some authors know they are good writers. They don't see the need to become great writers.

Well, if flames are there to improve bad writing, they lose significance if they also start telling the good writers that their stories are bad. True, any story can be improved upon, but just because it can still be improved doesn't mean it's bad / it sucks / the author needs to jump of a cliff.

Flames are there to improve writing. It shouldn't matter if the author is good or not. If the author writes well, he/she should ignore the flame, or try to improve. Tell me what's lost there.

"If anything, good authors should definitely get compliments on their work, so bad authors can see what kind of reviews a person can get if they write good stories."

You see...many good authors already get compliments on their work. Most of them are the same types of reviews you will find on the review pages of bad authors. "Up8 mor3 plz!1!" From what I've seen, reviewers tend to say that in one way or another. The only stories I've seen that are entirely devoid of those comments are the stories of an author who says that he particularly hates reviews that are less than a dozen words long.

The big problem with flames (aside from the insults) is that they don't tell an author how or what they can improve. If the author already knows how to make their story better they probably already would have (although there are loads that know they can't spell to save their lives that think we just have to accept that). So if you really want a story to get better, you should give the author at least a clue of what is wrong and how it could be better.

The flame already gives the author an indication of what's wrong. Maybe it's the "No flames" sign in the summary. F/R targets some stories that way. Or maybe you had trouble keeping adverbs out of your writing. There's always something you can improve upon. It's just that you need to look closer when you get a flame since it doesn't specify what you need to work on.

I will take the time to point out right now that, if you ask F/R in the forum for advice, he will give it to you. Occasionally.

I don't believe in giving gushing praise either (unless it's truly deserved), because that won't improve the author either. They will know what they did well and keep repeating that little trick to all eternity. Reviews should reflect both what is good about a story and what needs work. And yeah, I know there are a lot of stories out there of which the best you can say is that at least the author has figured out how the uploading function works. I want to yell at stories like that too. Usually, just yelling at it works. Other times I type up a flame and store it somewhere on my computer.

Hmmm. I just hit the 'back' button on my browser or give very sketchy con-crit, usually along the lines of: "You need to figure out what commas and periods are. Commas are used for..." Something like that.

Flames don't serve any purpose for the person receiving them. They are just stress relief for the flamer. Stress relief doesn't require actually sending the flame -- store it on your computer -- so why do you?

No, I don't flame. Once again, I deal out CC about 98% of the time.

Stress relief for the flamer, but the author can turn the flame into something constructive. Say it's a sign indicating to you that something's wrong with your story. It urges you to improve your writing.

Yes, my interpretation is rather twisted and strange, but it's my interpretation. :P

I don't see the point in that at all. I mean, why not just leave a review just saying that: "just to remind you that any story can still be improved"?

Of course, everyone should try to see the positive of a flame. Still doesn't mean that people should flame.

The flame already gives the author an indication of what's wrong.

I got a review/flame that told me I wrote mediocre for a preteen. Though, that tells that I should improve my writing, it clashes so much with my own opinion of my writing style, and comments made about it in other reviews, that that hardly is an encouragement to try to "up" my writing style to mediocre teen level.

Flames don't give an indication of what is wrong with a story, because, as often as not, they are written by people who have not read the story. And though you can tell that the layout need fixing just by looking at story, that is about all you can tell by looking at it.

So, in your opinion a flame is just a reminder that a story can improve.

Yes, I do think that a flame is a reminder that a story can improve.

I don't see the point in that at all. I mean, why not just leave a review just saying that: "just to remind you that any story can still be improved"?

Because, some people don't listen to gentle criticism. They need to get a slap on the face to bring them crashing back down to reality. And, let's face it, the flame is a slap on the face. It's rude and it stings.

I got a review/flame that told me I wrote mediocre for a preteen. Though, that tells that I should improve my writing, it clashes so much with my own opinion of my writing style, and comments made about it in other reviews, that that hardly is an encouragement to try to "up" my writing style to mediocre teen level.

I never said that it was an encouragement. But you should take it as an encouragement. Try not to let it get too personal. If the flamer's view clashes with your own, then ignore it. Same with CC. Someone gives me CC that I disagree with, I ignore it and I support my view. There are different POVs. People tell me they like Eragon, and I think that they're stupid. Does that make my opinion the end-all, be-all opinion in the world? No, it doesn't. [But Eragon *is* bad...]

Flames don't give an indication of what is wrong with a story, because, as often as not, they are written by people who have not read the story. And though you can tell that the layout need fixing just by looking at story, that is about all you can tell by looking at it.

So, if you know that the person hasn't read the story, either ignore it, or fix something unseeable and make youself a better writer. Both ways work.

I'm afraid I'm not done debating this, so if you don't read it, so be it. I see no need to not reply publicly.

Funny how it's fine for you to be condescending to others - and yes, that's exactly what your opening post on this forum was. Arrogant and condescending, to people who had not kicked and screamed when you left them concrit, in fact to people you'd had no previous interaction with at all. And I'm afraid the comment about "little authors from overseas" really pushed my buttons. You got both barrels, and you deserved it. But the minute someone else uses the same technique on you and your judgement of what's good - wow, do you not like that. And if you, a mature adult, can't help but get angry when it's used, how can you possibly demand that a thirteen year old new author shouldn't post fic unless they can handle it? Because you "know" that your judgement is good and so the person commenting in a less than complimentary manner must be being rude and unreasonable, even though they've said that it's their personal opinion? That's exactly how the authors feel.

So to me, if they can’t handle the reviews, they shouldn’t post their stories at all.

Thing is, flames are rarely reviews. I don't think anyone who can't handle abuse should be on the internet, period. But I see no particular reason why this means it's acceptable, even laudable behaviour to spew personal abuse at someone in a fic review - and in F/R you are defending someone who does just that, even if you don't.

I wouldn't comfort someone who got upset at your cut-and-paste review, or indeed any harsh-but-true review of what they had written - and since you've given it up yourself, I've no idea why you're angry that I say it's not a good way of reviewing, you seem to have decided that for yourself. I would have sympathy if they said "but I don't understand how to NOT do the things she says I'm doing wrong."

I don't think it's insulting to an author to say their fic is not the best on the site. I don't even think it's insulting (in many cases, and if you looked at the fandoms I review in, with the exception of Crossovers you would see the quality I am talking about) to say they wouldn't be the best on the page. My writing is not the best on the page for any of my fics posted here. I can say that without even checking what page they're on right now. I do think it's highly arrogant for you to even think that you can randomly pull good fics from every fandom here, even the ones you've never heard of.

I think it's very sad you've stopped caring about whether what you say in a review hurts another person. I'm quite sure that you don't apply that in real life, and why should it be different? Those authors, sitting at their keyboards and downloading their reviews, are humans too. There is a difference between not sugar-coating and not caring whether you hurt someone. I don't always get it right, and you obviously found the flames I've had where I failed. I do always try. I don't see any point in getting someone cross at me personally. I want to get them determined to fix their writing. I've never seen anyone react that way to a flame.

and I would be more than happy to give a detailed “concrit“…or perhaps find a story to add to my “Less than best C2”.

If you've even heard of my fandoms, or fancy giving them a go, please feel free to review. The Thunderbirds ones are probably more accessible to someone who doesn't know the fandom. Possibly a bit "family friendly" for your tastes, though. Both are old kids' shows.

I'm afraid I'm not done debating this, so if you don't read it, so be it. I see no need to not reply publicly.

She already said PM her. She gave you her real account name. Why not continue it through PM? I'm just confused. I'm of the opinion that if there's a conflict, take it to the private mailing system. [And actually, most forums have rules like this. Conflict? Take it to the mail. But, of course, I've seen some power-abusing admins out there...]

Then again, last poster generally is regarded as the winner of the debate from my experience. Did you want to reply publically in order to make it look as if she couldn't construct a proper argument [especially if she doesn't reply]?

Please don't take this post personally, cathrl. I'm just curious.

Again, no offense meant. But apologies if I sounded hostile. ;)

Not taking it personally - you have to push the right buttons for me to do that :)

I will touch on this...but only this, since I already made my position on the reviews and C2 clear. Again, you didn't read the beginning of my post when I had said:

The rest of you have been civil, even when I did make my snarky first post...and I apologize for that--but again, now I am angry, and now I feel I must defend myself and why I suddenly went from nice constructive critic--to joining the evil flame team.

To which, golly, I had apologized. Did you just skip over that? I'm assuming you did.

As for the overseas comment...I said that in regards to the fact FF.net is busy building an interface for people whose native language is not English. THIS is what I meant. Why you took it personally is unclear, but I never said that in regards to authors overseas who are already a part of FF.net.

I will agree to disagree with pretty much everything you say, since you are just as opinionated as I. And I'm not sure if I will be taking any of your comments to heart on my writing...since you seem a little too PG minded for the subject material. To each their own, and now hopefully I have cleared the misconception of the "overseas" comment, so perhaps you can smooth down those ruffled feathers now...yes?

Edit: I did get your PM and I have replied. Thank you for the nice technical comments...since that is what I'm trying to hone right at the moment. The other thing you mentioned I will probably change it to be safe...but regardless of the rating, I do know how to replace all the naughty words with fluffy words...which is what FF.net wants it seems. I knew of a girl who got banned because she used the technical term "nipple" in her chapter twice back when FF.net cared about upholding the ratings. However, Now I see things posted that make my stories seem tame. So, not sure if the M rating holds that much merit anymore.

This here is a forum where we like a little tough debate. Conflict is good, as long as it stays a disagreement with exchange of arguments. There are forums were debaters are told off for arguing; moderators of those forums would probably shudder if they saw what went on here sometimes, quite heated debates.

She already said PM her. (...) Why not continue it through PM? I'm just confused. I'm of the opinion that if there's a conflict, take it to the private mailing system.

Personally, I don't like it that a person can take a debate hostage like that. Arguer A gave her opinion publicly, than arguer B has the right to rebuttal publicly. It should be arguer B who wavers that right, not arguer A to take it away from her. Besides, I was also interested in hearing what arguer B had to say in response.

So, I agree with cathrl: take a conflict to PM when it has no longer anything to do with the thread. Fire hydrant's response to cathrl's PM should for instance be send to cathrl in a PM; that's how she recieved cathrl's comments in the first place. On the other hand: she also said she probably wouldn't do anything with cathrl's comments before she read them; it was nice of her to put an edit in her post showing she appreciated the comments.

Other than that we're also not too strickt about things that go off topic.

So people try to help.

And they get fed up with the constant whining and complaining.

And the become embittered towards fanfiction.

So really, it's as much the writers' faults as the actual flamers. If people didn't post such craptacular fics, I doubt there would be as many flamers.

Hope I followed the rules for the post...

Gritts? Don't be a hypocrite. This is a review you left on somebody's story:

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Grrittss

2007-03-28

ch 1, reply ITZ 2 ANGTEY AND NOT ENUFF STOREE LIEN. U FAIL AT LIEF SO GO EET A BATEREE1!11 NO, SUH, NO SHU, I WUNT! YES U WOOD UNLES U WONT 2 HAVE A MOCEENBERD KIL U!1!

COOD U R8 MINE FICCY? ITZ BETTER TAN URS. U WOOD LIKE IT CUZ IT ROX.

P.S. U SPELED "STUMACK" AS "STUMOCK." SO I GESS UR STUPID 2.

---

I'm *definitely* calling troll on you now.

You guys get trolls over here, too?

Unbelievable.

But, unfortunatly, unbelievable in a very believable way.

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