This is very interesting, I actually had a topic like this in school recently about labels and wanting to fit in. I guess they would see it as a kind of security, to at least indicate that they belong somewhere while still being able to maintain their own individuality. Everybody is different and hence, should not be lumped into a certain catagory, which is why I say that they are still able to maintain their own individuality. What people do not realise though, is that there is both a positive side and a negative side to labeling, not many people actually focus on the positive side.

PEople are social creatures and they want to be able to belong to a community consisting of people with similar interests, and labels do give them this kind of security. It's not so much not being able to stand on one's own feet, but rather, wanting to stand with another person so that they would not feel alone. Two are better than one at times, especially in terms of support. I used to be like that as well, I prefered to think that I was an independant person, but there was still a part of me that wanted to belong with a group, and I would always feel a pang everytime I saw people in a group while I was being on my own. I have gotten used to this side of me, and now I don't see that there is anything wrong with that.

The bottom line is, you have to feel comfortable in your own skin, in order to be able to tackle the world. Whether you want to do it on your own or you do it in a group, as long as it gives you the security you need, then go ahead.

I could not have said it better myself, Celebrian. If fact, I tried, but I just couldn't get the words right. lol

LOLZ!

I could not have said it better myself, Celebrian. If fact, I tried, but I just couldn't get the words right. lol

Hey thanks! It's nice to know that my writing is still coherent. Besides, you came across as extremely mature as well, going by what you have been saying here.

w00t.

Thanks Celebee O'Tefeld for stressing the sense of belonging and security people gain through labels. I think that's definitely part of the appeal.

However, why can't people just have friends? Does anyone really need to fit into a label in order to hang with a group of people? Is a similar taste in hobbies, style, music, and opinion needed? I personally don't think so. While sharing interests can be fun, I wouldn't want to hang out with people who seemed a lot like me. I think part of the attraction of a friends is that they have (or at least I think they have) qualities different from me, something better that I admire. I mean, unless you value friends different from you with (what you think are) inferior qualities in order to make them sidekick friends that enhance your greatness by comparison (yeah, some people actually do that), I think most people generally want to hang out with people that they think are cool.

I think that maybe fitting under a label and hanging out with a clique (that's under a label or two) provides more visual/concrete proof for people who're more unsure/uncomfortable with their social connections and who they are. The visual identification and sharing of many values helps reassure someone that they are close to the group, that those people are their friends, that they are important and in the right (because other people are in agreement with them), etc.

The mind of man is fragile and shallowly-relative in its workings, often desiring the proof from another that he/she belongs - so in a sense tags have benefits. The only sort who don't need tags are the very mature, the outcasts or the self-exiles, who are a reverse of the second.

But even the more mature people get called tags such as: neek/ geek. However people should each be individual and not worry about falling into a catagory or what others will think. We were created all differently for a reason, not to all try and be the same and o ft into one catagory. Who agrees? Please let me know your thoughts.

Thanks Celebrian, you seem to have a pretty good head on your shoulders too. I am actually 23,but I constantly suprise people whenever I talk about something I have an opinion and real info on. They can't beleive I know things. Of course, they all think I'm a niave fragile little thing, so there's that....

Saber, I can see you have no real social insecurities. A person who does not feel very confident that they are 'acceptable' will attach to a label so they can pretend and convince themselves they are okay. Those people usally put down others and need constant reassurance. And are very vulnerable to peer pressure.

The mind of man is fragile and shallowly-relative in its workings, often desiring the proof from another that he/she belongs - so in a sense tags have benefits. The only sort who don't need tags are the very mature, the outcasts or the self-exiles, who are a reverse of the second.

Ooh, that sounds very poetic. I agree that sometimes people grasp for tangible evidence of invisible, mutual social connections even though it's not necessarily needed or realistic.

But even the more mature people get called tags such as: neek/ geek. However people should each be individual and not worry about falling into a catagory or what others will think. We were created all differently for a reason, not to all try and be the same and o ft into one catagory. Who agrees? Please let me know your thoughts.

I agree Krissy chrissie XXX. That's how it should be, but even if we say that, it's tough to follow through. People get scared and cling to what's easier to see, if you know what I mean.

Saber, I can see you have no real social insecurities. A person who does not feel very confident that they are 'acceptable' will attach to a label so they can pretend and convince themselves they are okay. Those people usally put down others and need constant reassurance. And are very vulnerable to peer pressure.

That's not a very accurate assessment. I have my share of social insecurities. I have stage fear, I hate to give presentations, even sitting in the very front row of class makes me nervous if I have to speak. I will actually sit in the seat right behind the first one and feel much more at ease. Although I'm an extrovert, there are times I'm very shy. I'm also very wary of girls in general and getting along with them (you know, maintaining the harmony and staying on the same page) can be intimidating. ...Also, people can be vulnerable to peer pressure and not strive to fit under a certain label or identify themselves as a certain label. The motive isn't exactly that a person is insecure and needs friends and support. I mean, youths join gangs sometimes for those reasons but they don't exactly need to have a certain taste in style to run with a gang. Same with joining a club. You don't usually have to dress a certain way, like certain music, or have similar beliefs to fit into a club and clubs offer a sense of community as well. Church can do the same thing too.

my brother say I'm a geek or a nerd cause I play computer alot and I know things they don'tit annoys my older brother(who is 18) when I know something he doesn't. And as for my fears of judgement by them I just remind myself that there are people out there that are far worse of than me.

It's one thing for people to call you a geek, because you like to play WoW or whatever and it's another thing to call yourself a geek, try to do what you can so people see you as a geek, because you want that and think that makes you better than most people who aren't geeks.

I just remind myself that there are people out there that are far worse of than me.

There's always someone worse than everyone. It's okay to like to play on the computer, so long as it doesn't become such an obsession that it gets in the way of other activities and responsibilities. For example, if you're really obsessed with WoW and play it so much that you can't maintain a job, a lover, or a social life outside of the game world, then that's a bad thing and you need to cut back on the gaming.

but they think thats a s super geek/nerd and I'm A reguler geek/nerd even though my little snobby brother is more of a geek or a nerd than me but he doesn't get in trouble when he plays video games to long because he is the favourite of the family.

and it's another thing to call yourself a geek, try to do what you can so people see you as a geek, because you want that and think that makes you better than most people who aren't geeks.

It's not always the geek's own stereotype classfication. Sometimes they are unfairly classified by snobs who do not want to accept them or feel above them. Such as stuck up jocks and ectera...

Can you not read?

I wrote: It's one thing for people to call you a geek, because you like to play WoW or whatever and it's another thing to call yourself a geek, try to do what you can so people see you as a geek, because you want that and think that makes you better than most people who aren't geeks.

People call people geeks for all kinds of reasons. Sometimes people really are geeky in some way, but it's still different in being that way or going out of your way to be that way.

yes and there are most of the time populer people and everyone does what the populer people say only few think differently

but they think thats a s super geek/nerd and I'm A reguler geek/nerd even though my little snobby brother is more of a geek or a nerd than me but he doesn't get in trouble when he plays video games to long because he is the favourite of the family.

Too bad, I guess. Life isn't always fair. Work with what you got and try not to be too envious of your little brother. Things change over time.

you can tell my brother is the favourite but him and our parents won't admit it.

He's younger than you, coddling the younger child more is common. My younger brother got away with more things than I did, less was expected of him, he got praised more for lesser accomplishments, and my parents got him things like a PS3 (when it was new) and other things for his B-day and Christmas gifts, while they typically spent less son me. However, if your parents do favor the younger one more, they're paying less attention to you, which gives you the ability to grow more independent (which can be a very a good thing).

'Your share' means that you have some insecurities, but not to the extreme that people who rely on sociatal labels do. It is tough to put yourself in another's shoes if you have little idea what they are going through.

When I said those people were very suceptable to peer pressure, I did not mean that that is the only reason someone is suceptable to peer pressure. It's like saying that if a man likes peanut butter, only men like peanut butter.

'Your share' means that you have some insecurities, but not to the extreme that people who rely on sociatal labels do. It is tough to put yourself in another's shoes if you have little idea what they are going through.

Again, you're assuming stuff about me without knowing. I used to eat lunch with the "goth" and "punk" kids in high school. They were self-proclaimed goth kids and punk kids, dressed and acted a certain way to fit under either label, etc. I didn't dress that way (I went through the goth stage when I was in elementary/middle school and was done with that), but I got along with them alright. Some of us shared a class together right before lunch, so... We weren't too close (I didn't hang out with them after school) and my other friends were actually afraid of them (wouldn't even sit with them during pepper ally). These kids, the ones who claimed to be goth and the ones who claimed to be punk, were proud of being those labels and thought themselves cooler than those different. The label gave them something to think they were special or unique. And yes, i chatted with them about it. They were always trying to convert me (my style was horrible in their eyes, jeans and T's usually). I've asked other kids about it and even some college kids who claimed to be emo about the benefits of being emo (they were trying to convince me it was something I wanted to be). So I'm not pulling the superiority thing out of my ass. The label can give a person a false sense of superiority and depth along with a sense of community and belonging.

But yeah, those were my people and I did go through the goth phase when I was younger ('cause I thought it was cool and being that way meant I was special, among other things. Beetlejuice's Lydia was one of my role models for a couple years...). Once you grow out of it, you realize it's not real.

The label can give a person a false sense of superiority and depth along with a sense of community and belonging.

I used to lead almost all the boys in my primary school stages, forming a "gang" of some sort that went playing with erasers, staplers and (relatively more sophisticated) paper-frog matches.....when I got to secondary school two years ago I realised how akward it was......so yeah. But the sense of community and belonging are good things to have, as the absence of that makes for loneliness, depression and attention-hunger.

Yep, I've got all that pretty bad. Although, I have always been a bit of an attention hog...hmm.

Saber, you are right, I am assuming stuff about you and I probably shouldn't (chances are I am wrong somewhere), but you really don't seem the type that has really major insecurity issues, just normal insecurity issues. The whole point I am trying to get across is that most can't really understand another person without walking a mile in their shoes. You can't judge a person in terms of yourself, because they are not you, and few have the talent or skill to really know how to judge in terms of someone other than themselves.

We're all people, and if we share similar cultural values (for example, growing up in the same country), it's not too hard to understand one another. Who we are is strongly influenced by society, it's not a fluke. We are social beings and we have the ability to profile and understand one another. If you ask the right questions, observe, and even personally go through something similar, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out something like that.

Labels and cliques are not a mysterious thing, they're very common place. If a sense of elitism and superiority wasn't common for people who strive/want to be emo or goth, then people who believe themselves to be emo or goth wouldn't need to question the legitimacy of other emos and goths, there would be no calling out people as "posers." People wouldn't strive to fit under a certain label if they believed it to be a downgrade or inferior to another label or just being an average person.

I think you didn't like the idea of any elitism or superiority involved concerning self-labeling. I think that has to do with personal biases. If person has ever been into a label, it may make him/her feel like it was immoral to do so. If a person thinks it vilifies the motive/feelings/thoughts behind wanting to fit under the label and taking any pride in it, he/she may feel that makes him bad/wrong/evil.

That's not how it works though. People are snobby about all kinds of things from time to time, but it doesn't mean that they have a serious superiority complex. For example, at the gym when I was using the leg press, a guy came over and said, "Just so you know, the plates aren't even." I had three 45s on the left and two on the right. I looked at him kind of annoyed and responded, "It's a sled, it doesn't matter." On a sled machine, all the weight is evenly distributed, so it doesn't make a difference where I put the fifth plate. At the moment, I thought the guy was really stupid and inferior to me, but that's not realistic. It was just one mistake and is insignificant when you look at the big picture.

People also have the ability to change and most will eventually grow out of the need to model themselves under a subcultural label.

And I am sorry Robert but I just dont like you. If you would please, not post if you dont have anything good to say. Thankyou and I realize we are all entitled to our opinion but I do not want to start an argument over it.

I guess some people can't accept critisism. What can be said about emo so not to cause any further confusion?

I guess some people can't accept critisism.

Yeah, she wanted people to side with her and tell her how cool being emo is and how wrong people are for not liking emo. You rained on her parade.

How to be Emo is a satirical video poking fun at the basic traits of a hardcore emo. Although it's meant to be humorous, I've known emo kids in high school that followed those traits and tried to explain to me what I'd need to be like in order to pass for emo. And the clip on the MTV report on the Emo backlash in Mexico goes over why some (more like many) punk-rockers and metalheads hate emo.

I think emo is the sort of label that won't last too long though. It's kind of became a fad in Mexico among youth, but they're the US's neighbors and that's the only reason why it's reached there. If you look at other foreign countries, rocker, goth, metalheads, punk, rap, and even rasta style subgroups have existed for years, but not really emo. It feels like grunge. Do you remember grunge? It used to be the in-thing, but now the label doesn't really exist anymore.

Speaking of grunge ans labels (this is off topic, mind you), PCU is a great movie to watch. Who can forget the hippies versus feminists ultimate frisbee match?

What can be said about emo so not to cause any further confusion?

Absolutely nothing.

Or a sentence directing the topic to the number of letters in the word emo, which would kill this thread and be pointless at the same time.

Emos are a rather strange lot.

Well, since it's a counterculture, it's technically supposed to be weird from normal. It's very different from the counterculture trends in the past. In the 60s, counterculture groups protested war or materialism (hippies were an example of a counterculture group). But now, counterculture groups are concerned with individuality through being anti-mainstream and following the style of their group.

I didn't finish my breakfast, lunch, dinner or late nite lunch today cus I'm sick and I feel nauseous!

I'm soooo sad!!!

=[

^^ See?

Hmm, hopefully you don't have a stomach flu.

Or any other sortta flu....but anyway.

We're all people, and if we share similar cultural values (for example, growing up in the same country), it's not too hard to understand one another. Who we are is strongly influenced by society, it's not a fluke. We are social beings and we have the ability to profile and understand one another.

To be honest, I think that empathy is a talent that some people seem to have, while others don't. Moreover, I feel that sometimes, no matter how easy it might be to understand people, there is still a hidden part that we cannot excess, whether it is known or not known to the other person. We cannot reach a complete understanding of someone or something as a result. Plus, what if we are not from the same country, yes, we won't understand the way some people think. For example, one of my online friends told me that she was raised as someone who thought of guns as more of a positive trait since it came with self defence, while I thought that guns were unnecessary, because I come from a country in which owning a gun is illegal. Thus, there will always be differences due to the ways we are raised and hence, it is completely impossible to reach a complete understanding of someone. Maybe around half, but definitely not a full one.

People also have the ability to change and most will eventually grow out of the need to model themselves under a subcultural label.

I agee with that. Coming from a personal point of view, I was once part of the Punk culture as well as the Rock culture. I identified myself as a Punker and hence, dressed like one, and listened to that type of music and yes, I was happy. However, I soon came to realise that I would much rather be my own self as compared to following another trend. Sure, my dressing may be influenced somewhat, but I'm still me and dressing like me at the end of the day. I guess you could say that I just lean in that direction, even though I do not consider myself a part of the trend. Back then, I was around fourteen or fifteen, and now I'm twenty. It is true that maturity comes with age.

Yeah, she wanted people to side with her and tell her how cool being emo is and how wrong people are for not liking emo. You rained on her parade.

Heh, maybe that's why she disappeared after a while. She wasn't getting what she wanted. I can't stand that kind of attitude to be honest. It's like she's just fishing for pity. Heh, I wonder what she would say now if she saw this.

I didn't finish my breakfast, lunch, dinner or late nite lunch today cus I'm sick and I feel nauseous!

Oh dear, I think you better go and rest then. Oh, and drink lots of water as well. No use forcing yourself to work when you're sick, otherwise you may end up even sicker than before.

Is that a Vampire Knight icon? I have a feeling that series will become very popular in the US in the future.

Thanks, i rested. sorta. well, i spent all day today laying in bed watching Inuyasha movies. All of them. Geez, what a day. i came online right now to rest from resting...if that makes any sense. i feel kinda better, but the water in my house makes me sick and no body will go out and buy me my own gallon! so i ate Ramen instead! it was yummier. i can still taste it under the sweet taste of my lemons. yum..=]

Ooh, you like eating lemons too? I love lemons and limes. Of course I don't eat rinds or seeds, but yeah, lemons and limes are great. I love sour stuff. Sour candies are my favorite too. It's so bad for teeth though.

YES! I LOVE lemons and limes!

You know that Starburst commercial with the short english dude that sung "berries and cream, berries and cream! i'm a little lad who loves berries and cream!"? When that came out i kept singing it to my friends replacing the 'berries and cream' with 'lemons and limes' and they got so annoyed they even held a "convention" and made me stop. they beat me up. lol.

anyway, i didn't know sour stuff was bad for the teeth. i eat it all the time. i'm pretty sure i do everyday, and my dentist tells me that i have really nice teeth and healthy gums, especially for a person who has braces.

and speaking of braces i'm taking mines off in two weeks! YAY! =]

It's just all the acid. Sucking on lemon and lime slices is bad, but eating them is okay. Eating too much sour candy (they have all kinds of acids to make that sour taste) and lemons/limes too often can make your teeth sensitive. Eating too many sour candy can give you a chemical burn too. I've done that to my tongue in the past (with Warheads) and I couldn't taste normal stuff for a day or so.

Is that a Vampire Knight icon? I have a feeling that series will become very popular in the US in the future.

Yup, it is from Vampire Knight. I have two favourite characters in that series and my present avatar is one of them. I'll probably be changing it to my other favourite next week though, if I haven't gotten too attached to this one. Then again, there is a high chance that I would be too attached . . . oh well!

It already seems to be quite popular, going by the speed in which the fandom is growing on this website. Unfortunately, it's brought about a fresh onslaught of sues and bad fiction. I hate to see what happens if it becomes too popular, like say, Fruits Basket.

i feel kinda better, but the water in my house makes me sick and no body will go out and buy me my own gallon! so i ate Ramen instead! it was yummier. i can still taste it under the sweet taste of my lemons. yum..=]

Oh well, at least you're starting to fell better, maybe if you rest a bit more you will be able to make a full recovery.

Ooh, you like eating lemons too? I love lemons and limes. Of course I don't eat rinds or seeds, but yeah, lemons and limes are great. I love sour stuff. Sour candies are my favorite too. It's so bad for teeth though.

It's just all the acid. Sucking on lemon and lime slices is bad, but eating them is okay. Eating too much sour candy (they have all kinds of acids to make that sour taste) and lemons/limes too often can make your teeth sensitive.

I love both lemon and lime juice, but I just cannot stomach eating the fruits on it's own. Too sour for me. I can stomach sour sweets though, but I can't take too much of them. My tongue really ached a whole two days after I ate a whole packet of sour skittles. Needless to say, I don't care to experience it again.

I didn't know that they were bad for teeth though; I simply thought they were bad for tongues. Oh well, that's the beauty of the internet; I learn something new every day!

and speaking of braces i'm taking mines off in two weeks! YAY! =]

Wow, that's good news all right! But is it true though, that you have to wear a retainer after that? How long is the duration for the retainer? I'm trying to convince my brother to wear braces, because his teeth really are very uneven and it's very unhealthy for him.

Moreover, I feel that sometimes, no matter how easy it might be to understand people, there is still a hidden part that we cannot access, whether it is known or not known to the other person.

That is so true. I know there is always something there that I just can't get, no matter how hard I try. People are incredibly complicated, and the more you find out about a person, the more you realize is lost on you or just completely hidden from view.

I hate to see what happens if it becomes too popular, like say, Fruits Basket.

Vampire stuff always does really well in the US. A Twilight movie is coming out soon and no matter how sucky of a movie it is, it should do well at the box office concerning ticket sales. I mean, Queen of the Damned is a horrible film (it's like a Mary Sue vampire fanfic), but it did really well for what it was.

Yeah, I'm sure it'll pop up on Cartoon Network eventually. Blood+ did after all.

That is so true. I know there is always something there that I just can't get, no matter how hard I try. People are incredibly complicated, and the more you find out about a person, the more you realize is lost on you or just completely hidden from view.

I think it depends. The more you get to know someone sometimes, the more that person rubs off on you and you on them. That's why you should always try to surround yourself with people that you admire or liked to be like. You shouldn't underestimate the tacit knowledge. Most people are unaware of the knowledge/understanding they possess.

Haven't you ever been real good friends with someone ans would start to say the exact same things in unison if you spent too much time together? Or you would automatically guess what his/her response would be in whatever situation before it comes out of his/her mouth? Or have you gained the ability to know what he/she will like or dislike about something without them ever having to explain it to you?

I'm kind of like that with my mom, I can tell what she's thinking from time to time and I believe I have an alright understanding of her taste. I've had a good gal friend in the past that I spent almost an hour or so each day with. It got to be that where we could guess what we were thinking when watching a program on TV, shopping at the mall, or looking at a particular person (people watching). We would even speak in unison by accident. My boyfriend and I know a good bit about each other through observation and experience. He's usually right about my tastes in things and I'm about the same with his. We don't share the same interests, but we know what we like and a bit on why the other likes it. It's just knowledge gained through spending a good bit of time together over the past couple of years.

What's that got to do with the price of tea in China? That's a tangent with little relavence to the quote.

You think? Hmm, how about this:

Don't underestimate your tacit knowledge. If you spend enough time with a person, even if you don't realize it, you'll know a lot about the person. If you spend enough time with someone and take enough interest to remember things about that person, you will gain they ability to even know what they're thinking a good portion of the time. Their character/thoughts will even influence your own.

The more you know someone, the more you know you don't know or will ever truly know them is a strange cliche. It's usually not true and, as far as I see it, if you believe something like that (ie "I don't really know this person, even after all of this time"), that just means your knowledge of that person is still too small. After all, most people aren't that secretive and they want others to understand them. We're social creatures.

Wow, that's good news all right! But is it true though, that you have to wear a retainer after that? How long is the duration for the retainer? I'm trying to convince my brother to wear braces, because his teeth really are very uneven and it's very unhealthy for him.

Yes, AWESOME news! And unfortunatly I do have to wear retainers after that. But if you're teeth are strong enough, then you could wear 'em like only at home or when you're sleeping if you want to. Unless you think they're sexy and wanna attract the opposite sex. It's gonna suck though cus I'm so used to brushing my teeth after I eat something [each time! even at school sometimes!] and if I do it without braces my teeth are gonna "DISAPPEAR", like my ortho sais. And I am feeling better now..I think it was all the Ramen and all the lemons...lol. Thanks again for caring so much! =]=]=] [triple happy face; you don't see those often.]

And thanks Saber. Now I know not to eat lemons and limes everyday of my gaddamn life. I just hope I don't DIE w/o them!

That's great about the braces. I had them all through high school (also headgear and a pallet widener for about two years). Your mouth will feel really weird and your teeth will feel abnormally slippery. At least, that's how it was for me. Flossing without them is soooo much easier, I was delighted for the longest time after I had them off about it.

...Yeah, sucking on lemons and limes is the problem. If you eat them, it's okay. I used to suck on them until my mom ratted me out to the dentist, who told me to cut it out. I switched to eating them. Just peel of the peel and eat the "meat" of the lime and lemon slice. Candy is kind of a similar issue. My dentist told me that candy I chew and eat is better than something I suck on, because that harmful sugar (and those acids) sit in the mouth longer, meaning more and longer contact with teeth. I never was really much into candy, but it's still interesting to know.

Ugga.

We have lotsa lemon/lime drinks and confections here.....dried orange peels and plum peels also....interesting things those - they make water taste refreshingly sweet after eating a single little bit...

I have difficulty connecting with people, so that may be it. I'm talking about most of the people you know, anyway. I don't see how too many people can have that kind of connection with everybody they know.

I hate sour. I always have and always will. I still like the lemon flavoring.

I like my teeth the way they are. To me, my smile is unique, rather than perfect, like a japanese tapestry (they purposely weave at least one flaw in each one to make it not perfect) so braces are out for me. Besides, my teeth are still functional enough. My canines are floaters and the front row isn't straight, big deal.

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