The ultimate Trapper-Keeper of research, from mythology to folklore to theology to symbolism. You name it, we’ve got it. Maybe. But if we don’t, please add to the collection.

In the spirit of things: The word “olio” comes from the Spanish word “olla”, which means “pot”; it was originally used to describe a type of stew that was full of a medley of different ingredients. Now it is often used to indicate a collection of some sort, usually artistic in nature, and while research isn’t an art form by any means, I think the word suits our purposes nicely.

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This space is to remain SPOILER FREE, please and thank you.

Eee! I'm so excited!

We've been discussing the hero's unusual birth, threatened childhood and call to adventure in class recently. So MANY classical heroes must go in search of their fathers (sound like anybody we know, S1?), and most heroes must leave home to answer their calls. It's been kind of mind-bending to think "Winchester" in class, because of course the classic hero leaves the status quo their families for adventure, but for Sam, his call to adventure was TOWARD the status quo, as he sought 'normal.'

There's a(nother) start to the discussion!

-L

*sigh. still talkin' to myself here, mira!*

Back in the old forum, I mentioned that I'd read that Kripke has recently said Dean is the hero. (I was kind of appalled, since Sam is clearly Luke Skywalker, ergo "the hero.") If so, and if Dean's following the classic hero's journey, then he'll come back from Hell with some sort of tidal shift in himself that's likely to be a kind of boon for humanity. (NO SPOILERS HERE, 'CAUSE I DON'T KNOW ANY AND DON'T WANT TO!!!) What generally happens, then, is that humanity accepts the boon, humanity thinks it's ridiculous or ignores it, or he just kind of keeps it to himself, however much it changes him. Am curious to see what S4 will bring, and what Dean's boon might be.

While it's always possible for one character to fit multiple archetypes, there's no way I can read David Leeming's description of Trickster and NOT think of Dean: "(T)he trickster is at once wise and foolish, the perpetrator of tricks and the butt of his own jokes. Always male, he is promiscuous and amoral; he is outrageous in his actions; he emphasizes the 'lower' bodily functions; he often takes animal form. Yet the trickster is profoundly inventive, creative by nature, and in some ways a helper to humanity. Jung sees in him a hint of the later savior figure" (to which I say again, I'm curious to see what S4 will bring!).

Leeming continues, "He has the charming if sometimes dangerous appetites of the child, as yet untamed by the larger social conscience. And, of course, he is almost always funny." How could that NOT be Dean?

That's all from The World of Myth, a standard mythology textbook. There's also an interesting aspect of the trickster that is readily apparent in fan reaction to Jensen himself, in that he "speaks to our animal nature, to our physical as opposed to our spiritual side...." Hence, my icon! (which was of Jensen looking extremely sexy--well, that's a given, isn't it?!)

Anyway, I'm really intrigued by the (actual) Trickster's involvement in the Winchesters' lives, given how Dean is by nature such a trickster, too. I think Kripke owes us an hour-long exposition of all the mythological elements he's intentionally interwoven into SN.

I agree with a lot of what you've said, Linnie. In the time I've spent looking into trickster lore from various cultures, Dean has always fit the role in some way or another.

...did you say something earlier about Kripke saying that Sam is the hero? If that is so, we definitly have a discussion on our hands. (And a potentially fun one at that; however I may disagree with the idea of Sam as hero, there are many sides that could be taken on it, and many to be explored.)

YAY! Discussion!

I actually said a LOT about Sam being the hero, and if we agree that we can disagree, then I say bring it on, sister!

Actually, I said that I had heard that Krip recently said that Dean is the hero, which caused my forehead to wrinkle more than a little. (I personally think that both brothers are probably classic heroes, potentially at different points in their journeys.) The reason for my dismay had absolutely nothing to do with Sam or Dean, but with Kripke, because I grow less and less certain that the man has any clue where he's taking us.

Anyway, the series clearly (imho) began with Sam as the hero. Remember all that chatter in various places about how Sam was Luke Skywalker and Dean was Han Solo? Well, Han is NOT the hero of "Star Wars."

I also crafted this brilliant essay about how Sam matches all the classic hero "tells," and will be happy to recreate it for our ongoing discussion. I'm quite positive it was brilliant, although the evidence has now vanished, so you're just going to have to trust me on this! :)

(Oh...maybe it's still in my old emails....) *runs off to check*

Found it! And while I'm willing to admit that perhaps it's not as brilliant as I remember, I'm certain that it must have eroded a little in the month-and-a-half it's been since I first posted it elsewhere. I'm very excited to add, however, that I begin my class in "The Hero's Journey" tomorrow!

Anyway, here's what I wrote earlier:

Poster: Linnie McCary, 7/7/08

Okay, fine, I'll just blather on here by myself for a while. If y'all won't even talk about Hero-Sam, I'm thinking I'll be s.o.l. if I try to get a discussion going over the concept of John as the Dying God! XD

So. Sam is Luke Skywalker. Heroes are born when the need arises, and their births have unusual circumstances. Often they are the result of a pairing between a god and a human. We don't know the circumstances of Sam's birth, but of course we all know what occurred on his six-month birthday.

There has been speculation in the fandom that he is not the natural son of John and Mary, and if what YED showed Sam in AHBL Part I is true, then YED in some respects at least 'nurtured' baby!Sam by feeding him blood. Again: If YED is to be believed, then Mary and YED had some sort of relationship. She was expendable, certainly.

It would seem that Sam's herohood--or, at least, his different-ness--was predestined, although we still don't know all the particulars about what brought YED to the Winchester family. He hasn't achieved herohood (at least, no more so than John or Dean, or Bobby, for that matter)--it has sort of been thrust upon him. What was it that YED said to John way back in "Devil's Trap"? Something like, "You know about Sam, of course." John's reply was that he had known for a while...if Sam had achieved his herohood, John's realization would have been more instantaneous, rather than gradual, I believe.

I'd even go so far as to say Sam was raised by 'foster parents' in the form of Dean, who acted as both his father and his mother, throughout Sam's childhood.

There's little doubt that Sam has at least one extraordinary power--particularly after the end of S3. Sure, he still doesn't know how to control it (or even what it is, really), but it's there, and I suspect we're going to see him learn LOTS of stuff about it in S4. (THIS THREAD IS A SPOILER-FREE ZONE, PLEASE!!!)

We've got plenty of canon and fanon to support the concept of Sam's difficult childhood. Henricksen comments on their nomadic life in "Nightshifter." Sam is obviously unhappy with his family in "Pilot," and displays plenty of negativity about his dad throughout S1--feel free to list all the ways this is a true statement. Stanford is, in some respects, his exile. Dean says Sam always was "like the blonde chick in 'The Munsters,'" which is to say that Sam was psychologically isolated from his family, too. I'm not saying John and Dean kept him out of the loop as punishment or banishment, but young!Dean was in on John's secret life pretty early ("Something Wicked" and the Christmas ep), while Sam was not privy to it.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Sam was despised or handicapped or abused (clearly he fits the "youngest son" criterion), but he was kind of the 'ugly duckling.' He was "the chubby twelve-year-old," and then he became "Sasquatch," so physically he was different from his family.

The whole "long period of obscurity" Campbell talks about fits Sam to a T, imho, particularly the part about him being "thrown inward to his own depths or outward to the unknown." That speaks to me about Sam being the scholarly one, the one rebelling loudly and emotionally against his father, the one running off to college because he is so different from his family that he doesn't want to be a part of them (?arguable).

His life has surely been filled with unsuspected presences, and I'd almost throw Dean into this category as well. I bet we're just starting to see the true extent of the number of those unsuspected presences, too--well, maybe not their number, but the degree and quality of their...hmmm...talents?

And of course Sam has exhibited extraordinary capacity--he's strong, he's clever, he's devoted, he's loving. These are each superlatives worthy of any hero.

I'm going to stop there, in hopes someone else will pick up the chat, but I'm prepared to go on (and on, and on)! I was just thinking, too, that many myths reflect the power struggle between father and son, and whether John or YED is Sam's "father" (literally or figuratively), he's certainly had power struggles with each of them!

The reason for my dismay had absolutely nothing to do with Sam or Dean, but with Kripke, because I grow less and less certain that the man has any clue where he's taking us.

...agreed.

I personally think that both brothers are probably classic heroes, potentially at different points in their journeys.

Agreed.

I think I may not have been as clear in my previous post as I had hoped (often the case), so I'll try to explain myself a little better here and respond to your statements, as well.

Sam certainly fits the "prototype" of mythological hero; I can't argue against that at all. Certainly a case can be built for him, and I probably wouldn't try very hard to disagree. Like you've said, Sam has the past, the struggle and the characteristics that make the hero. (But, as Campbell aptly points out, these things can also "break" the hero. More on that later.)

As I've watched the show, despite whatever Kripke may have said or even had in mind with the characters, the hero to me has always been Dean, simply because he is the less obvious of the two. While Sam certainly displays the makings of the typical hero, Dean displays them more unconventionally and, as you have said, can seem more like the trickster (who may appear as the villain at times) than the hero. Lewis Hyde would contend that the trickster is every bit the hero the mythological man has the potential to be, and I completely agree.

For this reason, I would be willing to stand by the argument that Sam is the hero that could have been, and Dean is the hero that will be. A lot of that is just a gut feeling, though, and I've always been biased towards trickster. :) But let me try to explain.

In Season Four, we'll see Sam without Dean, which will be really telling. We'll see where he is in his hero journey, and we'll see which direction he's going to take (keeping in mind, of course, that regardless of which path he takes, he is capable of saving Dean, an assumption I base mostly on the nature of the show but partly on the sneak preview we received of Sam's untargeted power(s)). Based on whatever episode in S3 it was that Trickster messed with Sam (I still don't have names memorized, sorry), we're about to see an interesting side to Sam.

And we'll see Dean after Hell, or wherever Lilith is keeping him (see above assumption), and we'll see if Hell/Lilith's secret chamber has helped or hindered his growth. To be fair, I could be completely wrong, and Dean will be the one to have taken a southern turn. But based on what Kripke has been heard to say, and based on my gut and strong hopes, I think Dean will be the one saving the day this time. What that means for Sam...there are a lot of potential scenarios in my mind, but nothing I can prove academically.

I would like to make some points about Sam playing the unconventional hero, but I'll have to do that next time. This will have to do for tonight. :) Thoughts? Because hooray for discussion.

You are going to own me in this conversation with that class, my dear. All I can hope to do is hang on and throw in a little trickster lore when it's handy. :)

~mira

Whee! Does this mean you have a computer again?! (and I totally will not own this convo, which I can say with confidence, having just gotten back from my first class. I will, however, be more schooled in the concept of the monomyth!)

One of the funnest parts of our discussion, I'm guessing, is that we totally have no idea where the SN storyline is going. I'm very excited about your concept of Sam as might-have-been hero and Dean as hero-to-be. Until S4 (and possibly S5) begins to play out, however, I'm still going to stick with Sam as conventional hero. [This is NOT to say that Dean is not also the trickster/hero, or the dying-god/hero, or the femme fatale/hero, for that matter (remember: "I'm your weak spot, Sammy." Gender issues aside, by definition, the femme fatale is the hero's weak spot).]

In addition to all those other hero-elements we've both mentioned thus far, Sam has come back from the dead, which is totally par for the course for heroes on their journeys. Did he bring a boon back? We've yet to see. We've certainly been prepped for the concept that his talents are darkside, but that's not what heroes bring back when they're resurrected. Ultimately, I think both boys are going to wind up clearly Classic Heroes, with capital letters all the way around.

We've heard inklings (which will go unmentioned in this spoiler-free thread) about what lies ahead in S4 for Sam, and you could be right, mira, that we're going to see Sam without Dean. I'm kind of sorry our hands are tied for the next several weeks by the no-spoilers thing, even though I don't know any (but MAN am I CURIOUS!), but my gut tells me something different than your gut tells you. At this point, let me just say that I think we're NOT going to see Sam without Dean, but we will see what Sam has BECOME without Dean. (Clear as mud, right? Sorry!)

If Dean's going to come back different from his stint in Hell, then I think we could argue the case that he HAS to come back having taken a southern turn (an expression I love, btw, although I'm curious about its derivation). Like you, I think Dean has already COMPLETELY been a hero, or at least set up as one. I felt that way about Han Solo, too, until all those darn teddy bears showed up in Episode VI. (If Kripke brings in teddy bears, I'm out of the SN world, let me just tell you! XP) I wonder how much of our own personal psychologies we bring to that interpretation of Dean, however. You and I have both 'confessed' to being taken with trickster-types, so we're naturally going to cut them some extra slack, see them in a better light than others might see them.

Oooh, yay--this is SO fun! Thanks! More more more!

-L

Haha, no, not quite yet. My roommates are out of town, so I'm using theirs. BUT in a few weeks I will have one, so no worries...by September 15 for sure.

We've heard inklings (which will go unmentioned in this spoiler-free thread) about what lies ahead in S4 for Sam, and you could be right, mira, that we're going to see Sam without Dean. I'm kind of sorry our hands are tied for the next several weeks by the no-spoilers thing, even though I don't know any (but MAN am I CURIOUS!), but my gut tells me something different than your gut tells you. At this point, let me just say that I think we're NOT going to see Sam without Dean, but we will see what Sam has BECOME without Dean. (Clear as mud, right? Sorry!)

Again I prove to be equally clear as mud, haha. Your point is the one I was trying to say (but apparently I don't speak clearly, at least not lately). There is, of course, the whole discussion to be had over how many episodes we'll go into the season with Sam and Dean separated, and while I have thoughts on that as well, it was not the subject I was referring to. So to re-state my point, we will be seeing what effect Sam's separation from Dean (and arguably from "good"?) has on him. (P.S. I added a spoiler-free warning to my description post.)

While at the moment I'm quite besotted with the idea of two "heroes" of sorts, I am very intrigued by the idea of femme fatale or femme fatale/hero combination and would like to visit it again soon. I have to confess that I'll need to do some brushing up on the subject, however. :) Please ignore the rust.

I definitely think that it would be "too good to be true" for Dean to come back without hell having any sort of negative impact, and to be honest, I hope for the sake of the show that he has at least some edge to him. I'll add on your thought regarding our bias to say that where others may disapprove or, dare I say, shun the trickster's "negative" characteristics, you and I would be more likely to accept them, with or without a grain of salt.

I am queen of the cliches and sayings tonight.

In addition to all those other hero-elements we've both mentioned thus far, Sam has come back from the dead, which is totally par for the course for heroes on their journeys. Did he bring a boon back? We've yet to see. We've certainly been prepped for the concept that his talents are darkside, but that's not what heroes bring back when they're resurrected. Ultimately, I think both boys are going to wind up clearly Classic Heroes, with capital letters all the way around.

To play devil's advocate, which is always fun:

1) What if his talents are his boon? (This would play to my idea of Sam being the "unconventional hero", or that who acts as hero by being...unheroic, as it were. By being what his society needs him to be but going against what appears to be the right, or heroic, thing to do).

2) ...what if he didn't bring back a boon? Being sensitive to the fact that this would unravel your argument that Sam is the hero, I would still say that this supports my idea of Sam as the hero that might have been...if he refused the call at some point between his death and resurrection? It's weak, I know. :) So we can just ignore that one.

But I do stand by #1. It is very possible that Sam is a hero in evolution.

From a hero-defining point of view, Dean is at a very critical stage as well. Like I said before, he is (arguably, and I'd be the one arguing) as likely as Sam to refuse the call right now. And I'm mostly saying that for my benefit, since I keep childishly clinging to this idea of him being unscathed. :)

I'm very interested in the femme fatale idea. (Although I'd LOVE to see Dean's face if he knew that was who/what he was being compared to.) And now that I'm thinking about the idea of Dean having already been through the hero cycle, the dying-god/hero is equally appealing. We will be having a lot of fun with this, my dear. I'll brush-up on these concepts and come back ready to discuss, at least on a surface level, and you can correct my inaccuracies. Yay!

And, yeah, teddy bears and I'm out. Hear that, Kripke?

~mirandler

Good golly, I just assumed that this thread was spoiler-free (because I want EVERYthing to be spoiler-free, I guess, and I AM the center of the universe, apparently, so...)--thanks for making it so! Sorry!

Some potentially sad (for me) news today: Enrollment for my class may be too low for it to continue. Humph. Nonetheless, I am completely dedicated to a fabulous discussion here. Just to show how dedicated, I offer this tidbit, which comes to me completely by hearsay--I haven't checked it out, but I've no reason to doubt my source: There are 22 cards in the Tarot (major arcana only, I believe) and there are 22 steps in the hero's journey. Hmmm--how old was Sam when the "today" SN saga began in "Pilot"? *taps index finger against chin thoughtfully* Why, I believe he was 22! *gasp* Coincidence? Tails once said that Krip said 22 had been chosen because of its significance, but we never knew for certain what he meant. (As with so many other things, sadly!)

I love devil's advocates! Can we both be one, pretty please? (Not tonight--I surrender the title to you tonight, because I've had a rough one.)

Hey, your point #2 isn't weak, I just don't believe it'll happen in this show. Both boys are going to end up total heroes, because I'm sure fans all over the world would explode, otherwise. (That includes me!) And that's the market, y'know. [I'm so positive I know exactly how the series is going to end that I can hardly contain myself--and I'm going to be extremely pissed if it ends some other way! Remember, I'm the center! :)]

Dean refusing the call would certainly be a different Dean than we've seen thus far. And was it in this thread or just in my overcrowded head that I said that in some respects, Sam "answered the call" by leaving his family and going to school. The hero goes against the norm, and in Winchester World, abnormal was the norm, making "normal" weird, the thing to be pursued. (Ah, yes, it was here, because I remember citing Dean calling Sam "like the blonde chick in 'The Munsters.')

I will personally be extremely unhappy if he comes back from Hell with powers. Boon, yes; powers, no. Dean is enough of a superhero just exactly as he is.

Which takes me back to the concept of him being a "classic" hero. We don't know the circumstances of his birth, or whether it came at a time of crisis. He certainly had a rough childhood, but he apparently thrived, after his silence following Mary's death ended. He's certainly died! I'm so SO curious about what's next for Dean.

I asked my summer-school prof about the difference between the call and temptation, and it's a fairly basic one: the call is to your higher self; temptation is to your lower self. I'm not so sure we can always tell, when the message arrives, but can only know upon looking back. I think our "hearing" gets clouded by what we want and where we are in our lives, and what may seem noble and valiant may turn out to be entirely self-serving, somewhere down the road. Isn't that the whole reason for Satan? To cloud our minds and lead us astray? How doubly delicious for him if he's leading us to Hell at the very time we think we're being so virtuous! This is very intriguing to me, and I may hark back to it in future discussion.

Re the potential of Dean as "femme fatale," I think I mentioned before that the ff is "bad" because she leads the hero astray. I want to point out, however, that it's not always that she has evil intentions, although most commonly I'd say she does. Because of our culture, it's no surprise to me that the Crossroads Demon appeared as a woman to the boys, nor is it a surprise--despite YED--that the more-powerful-than-YED demon is female. (If the brothers were sisters, would the evil genders have changed, do you think?)

And, just because it's been one of those days, may I add that I utterly laughed at the phrase "hero cycle," because it made me think of the laundry I have yet to do--you know, rinse cycle and all!

-Linnie

Whoa. This conversation is way too in-depth for me at 1:00 in the morning. I've read almost all of your posts though, and I'll be adding to this discussion eventually.... when I have time to wrap my head around it. Y'all are so smart. =P

The only thing I've really got for you right now is that I agree with this:

As I've watched the show, despite whatever Kripke may have said or even had in mind with the characters, the hero to me has always been Dean, simply because he is the less obvious of the two. While Sam certainly displays the makings of the typical hero, Dean displays them more unconventionally and, as you have said, can seem more like the trickster (who may appear as the villain at times) than the hero. Lewis Hyde would contend that the trickster is every bit the hero the mythological man has the potential to be, and I completely agree.

When I think of a hero, I think of Dean. That doesn't mean Sam isn't one, and I certainly don't have any mythology to back my belief up at this point, but it's the feeling I get. Possibly because Dean's always seemed to be the most driven of the two to save people (and I'm probably using "hero" in a much simpler term than you two). Sam first tried to escape hunting, and then was only driven into it again due to guilt and anger and revenge. He also sometimes has an attitude of, "If I save people, I'll help myself be good." Whereas Dean has resented hunting ("Why do I have to be some kind of hero?"), but has always realized that it's his burden to bear.

I'm not sure if I'm hitting the discussion topic or not, but I don't have any more brain power at this point. I need to do some research, lol!

WOW. I'm gonna LOVE this place once s4 starts. :D I can tell there's going to be some epic dialogue being thrown around in here. As for the current conversation...

I completely agree with you, SIG, on how you think of Dean as a hero. Sam is one, too, but they're both heroes in their own way. Dean hunts because that's his job. He does this because it's what John always told him to do. Hunt demons, save people, skip town. That's his life. He does it because even though there are days where he just wants to grab a beer and let somebody else do the work, he know that wouldn't by the right thing to do. Nobody would be saved if he were to do that. I watched WIAWSNB last night (oh Lord, the tears!), and during the scene where Dean's at the cemetary and talking to John you can tell that he so badly wants out. He wants a chance at his own life, and not just that but he wants the people he loves (Sam, Mary, etc...) to have their own life; free of any troubles except how many apple pies to make. Dean wants to save everyone, make everything better, give everyone everything, and he does. He never shows it, (example: Dean couldn't even say in the graveyard that "It's not fair" when he's talking to John's headstone) but deep down inside he's begging for the chance to be normal. I doubt it's even that he wants the white picket or the pie (well, maybe the pie), he just wants to know that he doesn't have to the be one taking care of EVERYBODY. He doesn't want to have to be the hero all the time. Which in turn, actually makes him a hero. *deep breath* That was tad long. And could possibly only make sense in my mind. But there's my bit for Dean. :)

Nice to see some other faces in here! (I’m sure Linnie would agree!)

I think any of us could go on and on about what makes our favorite character(s) a hero and ultimately what defines a hero in our own minds. I’m not sure that we ever really set up this discussion correctly here, since we started it in another spot much earlier, so I think I will now.

We’re basing our discussion off of a few texts: The Hero With a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell, The World of Myth (textbook), and Trickster Makes This World by Lewis Hyde. Any others I’m forgetting, Linnie?

So, like you, Riley, I could (and would like to) argue that Dean is the hero because of the reasons you have listed. But, since we could come up with a list just as long for Sam, we’re sticking with our nerdy textbooks for the purposes of this discussion. To help, I’m adding a link at the end of this post that is a quick synopsis of Campbell’s classic map of the hero’s journal to help anyone “get up to speed” with the discussion. It will help, I promise. :)

Linnie, I only have a little bit of time so I’m going to have to respond to your post in two parts; I’ll add to this at some point tomorrow.

I think Kripke has an unnatural obsession with the number 22. But hey, it works for me!

I agree with you that, despite whatever power I’d like to believe this conversation ought to have over our beloved writers/producers, the show is going to end as a crowd pleaser. So, in that respect, if Dean were to refuse the call it certainly wouldn’t be for long.

But wouldn’t it be a cool, albeit short, journey? I’d love to see it, and the fangirl in me would love to see him return to hero-ship. (I’m pretty sure I’m making up words now. Slap me. Someone.)

If Dean comes back with powers…well, I would like to say I’d quit watching but we all know I won’t. But there won’t be happiness.

I had a point about Sam, but I can’t remember, so that will be tomorrow morning’s tidbit. In the meantime, here’s Campbell’s cheat sheet (not totally complete but it will suffice):

http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/smc/journey/ref/summary.html

~mirandler

mira, thanks for clarifying that this discussion is certainly open to all who want to participate, but that this is the "academic" thread. Thanks, too, for the link. Just for the sake of expediency, let me include this brief descrip of the monomyth from the prologue of Campbell's Hero With a Thousand Faces:

"The standard path of the mythological adventure of the hero is a magnification of the formula represented in the rites of passage: separation - initiation - return: which might be named the nuclear unit of the monomyth.

"A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow man."

Now, in that same prologue, he talks about the fact that, while the hero's journey appears on the surface to be "overground," it fundamentally "is inward--into depths where obscure resistances are overcome, and long lost, forgotten powers are revivified, to be made available for the transfiguration of the world."

Now, I personally don't care much for the idea of either Sam or Dean transfiguring the world, as I believe I've expressed ad nauseum (but once more, just for the record!), but we all love those angsty journeys into their depths. The concept of obscure resistances being overcome for/by dark!Sam excites me terribly; as does the concept that, whether Dean somehow escapes from hell by his own machinations or with the assistance of others, it has been via some type of decisive victory. I can hardly control myself, waiting for S4!

This is the passage in Campbell's prologue that's screaming to me of the new season, with Sam in some dark night of the soul and Dean reemerging into the light (in my fantasies, anyway):

"(With the resistance overcome and forgotten powers revivified,) life no longer suffers hopelessly under the terrible mutilations of ubiquitous disaster, battered by time, hideous throughout space; but with its horror visible still, its cries of anguish still tumultuous (Sam in Mystery Spot, Sam with Dean's body in his arms at the end of S3, Sam without Dean for however long a time--is there any doubt the guy's in anguish?) it becomes penetrated by an all-suffusing, all-sustaining love (there's Dean!), and a knowledge of its own unconquered power."

Well. Campbell goes on in that vein in his inimitable style, and to me, it's all Winchester!

-L

Mira’s late. Are we surprised? Really?

So, to continue the conversation and hopefully not lead it back into a dead end, as I am often wont to do. Upon reading your differentiation between temptation and calling, my mind just started buzzing. See, to me, Sam’s decision to leave his family and, arguably, his calling had always been an immature and self-serving one. That’s just my opinion; my immediate gut reaction to it is “wow. What a little bitch”. So you can see why I would immediately be all about Sam following a temptation versus a calling.

However, I can amicably agree that

1)The results of Sam’s leaving at 18 have greatly impacted, and probably improved, his and Dean’s situation as hunters in the last three years, in that Sam is now much more resourceful than he was in his teens (again, arguably) and that Sam now has a clear “identity” to which to cling.

2)The pattern of Sam’s leaving, then returning, follows the pattern of the hero’s journey almost perfectly.

So in that vein, I can agree that Sam is a classic hero. This, however, requires me to get over my gut reaction (Sam’s leaving was a decision made to benefit his lower self) and somehow replace it with the more logical one (Sam’s leaving was a decision made to benefit his higher self, which in turn qualifies hunting as something “low”, not “high”). You’ll have to bear with me, because I still have problems with the idea that his family and his family’s “calling” are something to be regarded as being less than honorable.

I’m about a 100 pages away from being finished with Campbell’s book, and as I make my way through it, I continue to find things that clearly point to Sam being the hero (and I’m always like, damn it!. Just ask KandKL). Last week I read of “rescue from without”, versus from within, and I think that if we all agree that Sam answered the call when he left “home”, then it was certainly Dean who returned him to “the world”. (My self-serving side would like it to be noted, though, that this might show Sam’s immaturity, even as an evolving hero; while there are certainly cases of forces preventing a hero’s return, making it so that he requires assistance in order to return, there are also cases of the hero resisting the return, making it necessary for the “world” that he is dragged back kicking and screaming. Sam may not have kicked, or screamed loudly (angst doesn’t have to be loud!), but he certainly returned reluctantly.) We could also spend quite a bit of time debating who is responsible for Sam’s return: Dean, YED, or a combination of the two (which could potentially call into question Dean’s character).

Today I read of the hero being “master of two worlds” after his return, which will be interesting to see how it translates for both boys. At the moment, we obviously can’t see any implications for Dean, but I do have ideas for Sam (which will be theoretically proven within the first few episodes of this season). In the last season, we watched Sam pretty much commit to the hunting lifestyle. Perhaps Sam, now having given up his life as he would have it, can now have power in both worlds. We see the reemergence of his powers in the S3 finale; it could be argued that, with Dean’s death, Sam has reached a point of no return and has finally dedicated himself to one of his two lives. In that logic, Dean’s death could be termed Dean’s last active “tug” to return Sam. And in that logic, I would be okay with saying that perhaps now Sam is a mature hero, or that we will return to S4 to find that he has become one.

~mira

mira, I'm so excited about what you wrote that I just keep running around in mental circles, clutching my hair in both hands and crying, "Oooh! Oooh!" I don't know where to begin.

a) I agree for now that Sam's decision to leave his family was selfish. But if that was his Classic Hero Time in the Underworld, then he not only needed to leave, but he brought back a boon for his dad and brother. While ostensibly that seems to be his powers, I'm still not convinced at all about them. Watching No Rest for the Wicked tonight just intensified my doubts--remember that Ava said that once he accepted them, it would be like flipping a switch, but Ruby (perhaps Lilith...not sure) told Sam it's NOT like flipping a switch. I am enormously unconvinced that Sammy's got any control over anything--it was not by conscious choice that he forestalled Lilith's little grenade. That just happened--like every manifestation we've seen of his powers to date. Things just HAPPEN. What if there are no powers in Sam at all? He's just a tool? A vessel? And what if Linnie is getting distracted and off-topic? (Now, there's a given!)

b) As for the family business being "low"...if you judged them by society's normal standards (and I'm not saying that's right to do, but...), then the Winchesters fall short in many areas. Think about all those things Henricksen said about John in Nightshifter. They're "fringe," these guys, and socioeconomically, they're "low." A different definition of the word, I grant you. But in our culture, the "classic" Classic Hero rides a white horse, always has clean clothes, never swears--that's NOT the Winchesters (thank goodness!)! I just throw this out for consideration.

ETA: Well, I certainly never landed THIS plane! Where I was going originally was to the concept of John's hunting being all about revenge, which is certainly "low." As I believe you pointed out, mira, Sam's initial return to the Winchesters' world was also driven by the desire for revenge. Dean's participation appears to be more noble, although there's no doubt he gets some jollies from killing fuglies; we just have to go back to Wendigo to remember that he's able to 'do what he does' because they're saving people, and helping others. There. I believe you may now turn your cell phones back on.

c) What if Dean showing up at Stanford was Sam's call to adventure? And in many respects, I think of Dean as the helper/guide (although that's Bobby, too, clearly). In fact, Dean has played so MANY roles so far that it's hard to keep them straight--I think that's part of the reason why I have relegated Sam to the hero's role. SOMEbody's got to be the hero, and Dean can't be everything, right? (Wrong, I'm thinking, given "current" events in SN, and Krip's comments.)

d) And I'm going to totally disagree with you that Sam is now a mature hero. For now, at least. Always willing to be proven wrong, but I think he has a LOOOONG way to go before he reaches that point. Personally, I'm ready to go along for the ride!

-L

Oh, my god, mira! How was THAT for a rebirth?! And then Dean gets right on a white horse!!! Oh, my god!!!

Holy crap. It was to the T.

I know we'll have a lot more to discuss, now that we know where the brothers each stand. Please, please bear with me as I wait for my computer to arrive; this is something I'd rather do with the freedom and flexibility of writing from home. I hear it should be here early next week.

~mira

I don't want to lose the topic of Sam as Hero, but since the last two eps have clearly put Dean on the Hero's Journey, I am slowly and unwillingly coming around to the idea that we may actually be looking at the Apocalypse. It is certainly a Winchester-worthy storyline, and we know that the Hero is born at the time when he is needed. There's no other way to interpret Dean's actions at the top of Lazarus Rising than as a birth or rebirth, and then, of course, by the ep's end, his supernatural aid has arrived.

My current prof reminded me in class tonight that the supernatural aid can be dangerous--generally to those who would thwart the Hero, but sometimes to the Hero as well. (The example he used is from the first Harry Potter book, when Hagrid "rescues" Harry on the island Mr. Dursley has taken the family to. Dursley insults Dumbledore, and Hagrid gets a little scary.) This could be interpreted in a way that chops to hell my argument over in Iter Itineris that ol' what's-his-name (oh, how I do NOT like Castiel!) isn't an angel. I, of course, am bulldog like in my tenacity, and therefore still unwilling to give up my notion that Castiel is just a wolf in sheep's clothing. XP Nevertheless, I understand how the argument could be made!

Anyway, I'm kinda curious now about the Goddess, and how or if Krip & Co will incorporate her into the mythology. Or perhaps they already have....

-L

Rugaroo/Rougaroo/Ruggaroo/Rugaru

This thing is everywhere. French, Native American, Catholic, Cajun. There are a lot of variations on the theme, but commonalities are present, as well. The idea of "werewolf" is very prevalent, as is the concept of shapeshifting. All of the lore involves the eating of human flesh.

I can go into more detail later (as much fun as googling during the show is); for now, I just quickly want to say that this is not considered to be the wendigo we've already heard about. (Wendigo is awesome.) While wendigo is certainly feared, rugaru is considered to be sacred by many tribes.

Sam is yelling. Gotta go.

~mira

"Sam is yelling. Gotta go."

*chuckles*

Because of the similarity in creature-type and in the name ("sounds like it's made up, but it isn't!" I'm so going to be working that line into my personal dialogue at the office in the coming weeks!) and in cultural genesis, please do advise us, Madam Weirdlore, whether this thing is also related to the loup garou.

[And, does anybody remember that French film that came out about loup garous ten or so years ago? I would like to see it again, but don't know the title. Help?]

ETA: It turns out that there's a website devoted to werewolf movies (of course. what was i thinking?!), and the one I was (not) remembering is Le pacte des loups ("Brotherhood of the Wolf"), which was released in 2001. I saw the subtitled version, and thought it was beautiful but violent, a wild mix of history and martial arts and horror and costume drama. Apparently, the film was very loosely based on "the true story of the Beast of Gévaudan, a wolf-like creature that slaughtered around one hundred people in the French countryside." Here's the description: "In 1765, the King of France dispatches expert biologist, explorer, philosopher and warrior Chevalier de Fronsac to investigate dozens of brutal killings that have been taking place in the region (of) Gevaudan. But can he unravel the mystery of the beast while dealing with the paranoia of eighteenth century French aristocracy?" It was much better than that sounds!

-L

So I have been thinking about Sam and Ruby, and I have been thinking about mythology, and sometimes I have been thinking about all of them together at the same time. Tonight, I was looking at Joseph Campbell's The Hero with a Thousand Faces, particularly "The Meeting with the Goddess." In it, Campbell posits that "Woman, in the picture language of mythology, represents the totality of what can be known. The hero is the one who comes to know. As he progresses in the slow initiation which is life, the form of the goddess undergoes for him a series of transfigurations: she can never be greater than himself, though she can always promise more than he is yet capable of comprehending. She lures, she guides, she bids him burst his fetters. And if he can match her import, the two, the knower and the known, will be released from every limitation. Woman is the guide to the sublime acme of sensuous adventure...(and) is redeemed by the eyes of understanding. The hero who can take her as she is, without undue commotion but with the kindness and assurance she requires, is potentially the king, the incarnate god, of her created world."

When Sam first met Ruby1, she certainly promised more than he was able to/willing to understand. Ruby1 was bold and sarcastic and kinda butch. Still, "woman" can't be greater than the hero. Now, Sam understands more, and we have Ruby2, definitely a transfiguration--they are much more equals than Sam and Ruby1 were. Who has more understanding eyes than Sam, more kindness and assurance?

Is he going to SAVE her?! Is that part of this adventure he's on? I actually think that might be kinda cool!

-L

Um. Well, whether or not he's going to save her, I'll leave alone for now.

There's a line of text I'd like to revisit: "she can never be greater than himself, though she can always promise more that he is yet capable of comprehending."

This is almost biblical, it's so confusing. (That was a poor attempt at humor.) To be fair, my mind is about 85% shut down at the moment. But I'm having a hard time figuring how the first can allow the second. My only thought is that maybe it's due to the psychological that this is able to happen: the hero will always have some amount of deference for the goddess, despite him having surpassed her, much like children in relation to their parents (generally speaking).

Haha, kinda butch.

Campbell's description sure seems to fit, though, doesn't it? I'm just not sure what kind of ending that gives us. This would be where you explain the saving bit. :)

Aw, damn it, I still owe rugaru lore. Crap. Um...I'll try to post something before the episode tonight. It will give you something to read while you wait! (I was planning on sending you the new and improved short story. We'll see which one wins out.)

~mira

Woman is the guide to the sublime acme of sensuous adventure...(and) is redeemed by the eyes of understanding.

I feel very much like Joey of Friends right now. I'm making this face: http://images.usatoday.com/life/_photos/2003/07-29-joey-inside.jpg

Ugh, this all sounds so romantic. Woman is...messed up. But she's "redeemed" because hero is practicing grace? "Redeemed" seems to have a very soft definition here. The old ethical debate can now commence: is there a black-and-white code of good and evil? We would have to say no if we are to accept Campbell's statement as true. But to do so would be to uproot some very clear cut ideas I have about the SPN 'verse.

But again, I really shouldn't be thinking, or rather, trying to think.

~mira

I just have time for a quick post, and won't be home tonight until almost ep-time.

Let me just say that the Hero often "marries" the Goddess. I'm not saying Ruby's the Goddess, but. And actually, Campbell pretty much says woman is all things, much more than messed-up, and not always romantic. Particularly as Goddess--remember Diana and Actaeon (she turns him into a stag because he sees her naked, and his own deerhounds pretty much rip his throat out).

-L

Okay, well, I have a few issues, then.

she can never be greater than himself

Implies that he is closer to "perfect" than she is.

Woman is the guide to the sublime acme of sensuous adventure...(and) is redeemed by the eyes of understanding.

Woman, or Goddess, is to be redeemed by man, or Hero. Again, this comes down why she needs to be redeemed and ultimately the definition of redemption. I agree that Campbell has pretty much made woman an all-encompassing being, but he's also made her imperfect, hence the "messed up". And if perfect Hero offering imperfect Goddess redemption isn't romantic in nature, I'm not sure what is.

Rugaru lore to follow.

~mirandler

More Rugaru Stuff

When I type "rugaru", I feel like I'm typing "ragu". Raw meat and spaghetti sauce, yum-o.

Gotta say, when rugaru was introduced last episode, I was pretty damn excited. I love me some Native American lore. However, rugaru also has a lot of French lore behind it. Believed to be werewolf in nature, it is the latest interpretation of loup-garou, as you said, Linnie. Lore is prominent in the South, specifically Louisiana. The being is said to wander around swamps and has a human body and a wolfish head.

More exciting to me personally, however, are the Native American roots, specifically the North Dakotan lore. Know the American Midwest at all, and you know that the Dakota's are chock (sp?) full of Native American goodness. The Turtle Mountain Ojibwa are largely credited with the legend, having picked up the word from French traders. There are conflicting beliefs concerning rugaru, but one that I came across more than once was that a person who sees a rugaru becomes one. Interesting.

Once again, we see Krikpe and Co. carefully combine and exclude parts of legends and even make up some of their own.

And Bed Edlund is rocking my world, so I have to go.

~mira

Linnie, I'm still fuzzy on the whole Sam saving Ruby thing. Care to explain? :)

~mira

Wow, I've been reading the research you guys do and it's pretty amazing! I've done some on my own, mostly hunting for plot bunnies. I've found some pretty cool native american lore. I'll look for my notes and post em. I have to ask, where do you guys do your research? I prefer the library but sadly I never have much time to go except for school! Do you have any good i-net sources?

Can't speak for Linnie; I have access to a quite a few databases, and there's always the trusty Google search! My library rarely fails me, and I end up reading a lot of books.

Check to see if your library provides any sort of access to databases via their website. You might be surprised. Your school might have access, as well.

Honestly, though, I've had a lot of luck googling and checking out its results. A lot of them have recommendations of their own. And it never hurts to go beyond the first three pages of Google results, either. :)

~mirandler

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