New question guys :

Arthuria have 2 NP: Avalon and Excalibur. Both goes together with king Arthur's legend, and both was taken away from her before she dies. So why did she can use Excalibur as a Servant but not Avalon ?

One more things: Can all Serikei fly ?

actualy she kind of has 3 NP:

Invisible Air to sheathe Excalubur in a shroud made of winds and avoid detection

Excalibur

Avalon which was used to summon her and later was given to Iris to prevent or delay her death, after that the Conceptual Weapon/Noble Phantasm was put into Shiro and later in the Fate route a facsimile/Trace made 'real' was given to her by him granting her the final NP that she posessed.

and the only explanation i can give for that is that Arturia was not an Eriei or Heroic Spirit and thus never went to the throne, but was traped inside her last moments by a pact with the world thus she can loose aterialized NP, just like Gil lost his ancient!Ship in the 4th war and did not regenerate it for the 5th.

and in Fate she did use Avalon once she regained access to it.

i haven't seen Sekirei completely so i can't respond the second question, but i suppose one of our commadres can either correct what i wrote or respond more accurately your question.

Because Shirou had avalon?

Because of her deal with the world Arturia is a bit of an extra special case when summoned as a servant. Although her Hougu were all recreated by the grail the first time she was summoned as a servant her deal means that as well as remembering her time as a servant in previous wars when she is summoned as a servant in later ones, any Hougu she has lost (like when she gave avalon to Kiritsugu) also stays lost.

Also when he gives it back she does use it in some routes doesnt she?

No because Saber lost Alavlon before she died. It was thrown into a lake by her Sister to deprive her off it. Avalon was recovered by archeology by the Einzberns before the 4th war. It was the catalyst that was originally used to summon her.

If I had to say it would be because Saber had Excalibur right up till the point her legend ended.

i totally forgot about that, she at the moment of her summoning lacked Avalon, but it was her and she used it in Zero and Fate, and not in the other routes because they didn't notice or discover it being behind Shirou's unnatural healing bordering on resurrections (when near Saber and helped by UBW body of interlocking blades).

@Shioran Toushin

Okay, thanks for the help.

Let's see if I got this right...WITH A SERIES OF AUDIODRAMAS!

Scene #1. Gilgamesh is Gilgamesh, no logical contradiction. All is right with Gaia, Alaya, Akasha.

Gilgamesh: "AHAHAHAH! BOW BEFORE ME, LOWLIFES!"

Gaia: "...is he really THE goldie?"

Akasha: "...well, he's got the armour and the attitude. I say he is."

Alaya: "He's Gilgamesh. I don't even have to talk to him to tell."

...

Scene #2: Gilgamesh gains a body in the world after his death. Logical contradiction, world (re:gaia) logic stronger than elemental (re:Heroic Spirit) logic, Equivalent Exchange must be satisfied.

Gilgamesh: "TREMBLE, MONGRELS! THE GREAT KING IS RESSURRECTED!"

Gaia: "Hey! You're not supposed to be here!"

Akasha: "Hmm...you're right. It's been five millenia at least since you set foot on earth."

Kotomine: "There is no need to be hasty. 50 prana a week says Gilgamesh has a body on earth."

Akasha: "Oh, the Servant rules and Grail War, was it? Okay, by the laws of magecraft, I agree that Gilgamesh has a body."

Gaia: "That's not fair!"

Akasha: "Just shut up and take his prana."

...

Scene #3: Gae Bolg's heart-piercing ability is used. Causality reversal, resulting in logical contradiction; world (re:gaia) logic supporting regular causality VS noble phantasm logic - as noble phantasms are a product of the human imagination, it can be said that noble phantasm logic is similar to the logic of the human conciousness (re:Alaya). In this case, Equivalent Exchange favours the side that brings more to the table.

Lancer: "Gae....BOLG!"

Gaia: "Hold it! Your aiming at (x,y), but the victim's heart is at (v,w)! You miss!"

Gae Bolg: "But I always pierce my victim's heart."

Alaya: "Yeah! That's its job as a noble phantasm!"

Gaia: "Akasha! Help me out over here."

Akasha: "Hmph. No payment means no can do."

Kotomine: "There is no need to be hasty. 50 prana says Gae Bolg pierces the victim's heart."

Akasha: "Done. Noble phantasm Gae Bolg pierces the victim's heart."

Shirou: "GAH!"

Gaia: "...why doesn't anyone want to play by my rules!?" *sniff*

...amirite? =3

you forgot to add LUK to had a Big Damn Hero and go to Gaia's side like:

Luck: " He has enough luck to avoid being pierced by your NP, biotch"

i suppose that you are correct more or less but that is the closest aproximation to what my understanding of the 'authority' in Nasu is

What exactly is the duration of Avalons invincibility ability? How much mana does activating it cost?

Who knows. The only people that used it were Shirou and Saber (And if you count Fate/Zero Kiritsugu and Iris). Shirou had it in his body for over a decade, and Saber already used it in her life many times.

And in the same note, would Avalon be able to protect from Gae Bolg?

If Avalon is equipped before Gae Bolg is activated, then definitly.

If Gae Bolg is activated first but you used Avalon before it hit then most likely since it protects against all Magics.

Don't know what happens if Gae Bolg hits first; since Bazett is shown to live around 3 or 4 seconds after Gae Bolg hits if you equip Avalon fast enough, maybe you get to live?

That's all guesswork based on limited info. though, so I might be wrong.

i suppose that if you somehow manage to activate Avalon after being hit with Gae Bolg you'll get healed.

@shinkir0

It goes back to the priority of logic.

Gae Bolg and Avalon are both Noble Phantasms, so they both would count as products of collective human imagination. Ergo, they are both support by the logic of Alaya, human unconciousness - making them evenly matched at this point.

However, both Gae Bolg and Avalon also have otherworldly features. Gae Bolg's status as a cursed spear means that it probably has the support of the logic of a demon behind it as well as the support of Alaya. And as a construction of the fairies, and owned by the Lady of the Lake herself, Avalon would possess the logic of faries as well. So whether fairy logic is stronger or demon logic is stronger is also a point of contention.

Finally, the exact effect that the two achieve must be taken into account, and if the contradiction can be resolved without resorting to one having priority over another, then such a solution takes place. Otherwise, the logic that is more explict would take precedance over a logic that is more general.

Assuming Gae Bolg is used in its single-target heart-striking mode, Gae Bolg's logic reverses causality, making "the heart is pierced" as the cause and "the lance is thrust" as the effect, rather than vice versa. As such, Gae Bolg must first overcome the logic of the world(Gaia) before it can begin to contest with the logic of another Noble Phantasm.

Concerning Avalon, it "shields its user in the domain of fairies" and completely isolates its user in another world. It is assumed that the land of the faries is a world that already exists, so Avalon does not have to recreate it each time it is used. Furthermore, using the comparison to a bounded field, it shields the user completely from "all destructive interference in the physical realm, transliners from parallel worlds, and multidimensional and multiplanar contact up to the sixth." Again, like Gae Bolg, since the world's logic dictates that "if you get hurt, you get hurt," Avalon also must overcome the logic of the world(Gaia) before it can begin to contest with the logic of another Noble Phantasm.

Now, assuming both Gae Bolg and Avalon are used at the same time, Gae Bolg's logic is a destructive interference of the physical realm - there is no avoiding this, as the piercing of a person's heart cannot be miscontrued as otherwise. Because of this, assuming all other things equal, Avalon's logic would take precedence over Gae Bolg's, because Avalon's logic explicitly prevents interference like Gae Bolg's ability. The only comparable logic that could equal Avalon's would be a hypothetical noble phantasm that can "pierce through all defences, no matter the strength, source or ability," and it too would have to be supported at minimum by world-tier and elemental-tier logic.

Long story short, fully activated Avalon pwns all.

Hey, with good reinforcment a mage can get quite fast and strong. Up to D rank on the servant scale. So we know that Shirou is really good with reinforcement and that he is considering going into runes, which from what we have seen with the Fraga can be a really good source of speed and power as well. Meanwhile his family crest is controll of time which can multiply your speed by a factor of 4 (With great bodily injury) If he wound up infiltrating the Clock Tower and wound up finding his family's magical crest and taking it then with those three sources of power... do you think he could approach a Servant in speed?

it would be crude of course, and it would be a nightmarish to get the crest to stick, but he got Archers arm to work for him and I think that was a bit worse. That would be a combo from hell. Especially with Avalon to repair the injury taken from the time displacement flaws.

That combined with the UBW, that would drive back even Miya.

The thing is, he doesn't have a magic crest. Kiritsugu never passed it on to him, and he couldn't even try to. Shirou is not Kiritsugu's biological son, so the magic crest would reject him.

first, reinforced shiro would drive miya back and UBW would totaly anihilate her because she does not have the benefits inherent to a servant or the saber class and UBW IS hax, also Excalibur is practicaly unblockable unlike miya's ship splitting slash.

second IF Kiritsugu ever tried to transplant his family crest to Shiro he has the advantage of always surviving the process and a high chance to accept the crest thanks to Avalon, but he never though about it and even i he did it's uncertain that Shiro would accept the crest.

A rather difficult question, if anyone knows, In Fate Zero all the unused command seals from the last war are accumulated by the Referee at the end and can be dished out to other competitors in the next war. At the end of the 5th war who would have revived these?

This is in my opinion a rather interesting plot detail as we have seen they can be expended to give the possese bursts of magical power.

Also if anyone would care to count who many unused command seals are there for the 5th war?

For the Fate Rout:

I know Caster got issued only one, so: 2

Did Sakura ever use any?: 2 (Or 3)

Rin used 2 in ever situation: 1

Illya never used any but it seems like she had only one specal one to begin with: 1

Caster would have received 3 for Assassin but did she use any?: 3?

Kirei, had the spells from the last war and he used one on Lancer but we dont know if the ones from the 4t hwar are passed on so: 9(if passed on) 2 (If not)

And Shirou used one: 2

So there are at the very least 13 loose command seals floating around after the fate rout, and possibly as many as 20.

i think the one youre thinking of for illya is her magic crest.

im fairly certain all official summoners got the 3, so illya may still have all that +2 to your count

if it's UBW route, kirei used at least one more on lancer to force him to suicide (what's with lancers and dying by their own hand?) -1 there

sakura... i don't know. in creating the command book-thingy, did that take up a spell? or did shinji ever use any?

for the previous seals, since the 4th didn't end properly and kirei effectively died, i'm wondering if they werent lost forever. maybe there's some sort of ritual he had to do to feed them back into the grail so it could give them out to the next arbitrator?

No, it says that they go back to the grail automatically, from where they should be redistributed to the next mediator...

But if there was no Grail mediator I think they might actually go back to Zouken as he is the one who created the command spell system.... in which case..... ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

And if you add on the Comand spells that were not used in the 4th war to this number then.... holy, thats a lot of comand spells.

Caster: 3

saber: 0

Gilgamesh: 2

Lancer: 0

Rider: 0

berserker: 1

Assassin: 1

never mind, actualy not that many.

dude, edit button.

and zouken having all the leftover command seals is a terrifying idea...

at least we know how he fed his worms when sakura wasn't around...

In Fate/Zero, didn't Kirei have to harvest the seals from his father's body; I remember that his father protected it from being stolen by using a password.

In all routes:

I remember Caster's original Master used all three. 21-3

A command book for Rider definitely used a command seal. 18-1

I think Rin used one on Archer in all routes before finding out Shirou was a master. 17-1

Lancer. 16-1

Ilya had three but never used any on the 3 successful routes. 15-0

Assassin(?)

Saber.

So including any variations for using the Commands in Fate,UBW,HF would probably be around 8-12 I think, not sure.

In addition to Kirei's CS left from the previous HGW; didn't he have around 10 or 11?

Yes he did, but Kirei was not the mediator at that point. The grail had to have bestowed the unused command spells directly upon his dad at some point because he was not a Master. So presumably Kirei got the ones from the 4th war at some point.

Quote:

On the floor, the final will in red-black writing was "jn424"-- one not of Christian faith might think this to be a secret message of unknown meaning. But to Kirei, who had inherited Risei's pious faith, the significance of this cipher was very obvious.

John 4:24. Without missing a word, Kirei recited those holy words stored in his memory.

"God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth——"

As if in response, on the already cold right wrist of Father Risei, all the Command Seals simultaneously gave off a faint light.

Accompanying a burst of dull pain, the Command Seals were transferred one by one onto Kirei's arm. Speechless, Kirei stared at the light of the Command Seals.

Undoubtedly, that was the faith a father had entrusted to his son.

Father Risei had believed that the first person to discover his corpse would definitely be his son. Only so did he write down in blood a code that only one of the clergy could understand. He had entrusted all the important duties of the supervisor—managing the Command Seals, guarding the Grail, guiding the Heaven's Feel in the right direction—to his son. He had truly believed that his son was one who could bear these responsibilities; even in death, he had no doubt of this.

He did not know that Kirei had concealed his newly-obtained Command Seals, and had already gained the right to be a Master——

@Kaiser: Marvel(Xavier, Jean, Emma tier) telepaths wouls own Shirou and Archer because telepathy is Hax in marvel, while in pretty much any other setting the porblem is sympathising with a diferent mindset the marvel ones blow right past it and communicate/enter the mind of beings that they honestly really shouldn't be capable of.

in other words as UBW is hax Marvel telepaths are even haxer.

dno if this counts as a 'Lore' question... but..

Archer-ko (sword dancers continuity): does anybody know a repository/archive that lists all the 'known' conclusions/facts about her? from what i personally understand...

• she's an alt!illya from the HF-route, when she sacrificed herself for shirou, but instead of him turning into emilya (heaven's failure), she took on some of his characteristics

• she became a counter-counter guardian, to uphold shirou's original ideals and tries to prevent counter-guardian EMIYA from.. uh.. doing wholesale slaughter (she mentions in SD4 she has not considered herself to have ever succeeded in saving anyone, however)

here i'm a bit iffy. is she still alive in sword dancers-2? (at least until she get's beheaded *ZOMGSPOILERS*) in SD-1 and Yuuzai Shouko Bukken Nigou, she takes the place of EMIYA during the 5th War/HA route, but for her would that be before or after sword dancers-2?

• she's able to utilize gradation air (trace) and project hordes of nameless swords (used either hand to hand or sword-rain), and a modified kanshou & bakuya, but she does not have shirou's full UBW nor EMIYA's huge amounts of noble phantasms

i think i'm wrong on this count, she might have his full armory, or she may have her own set. she says somewhere she and EMIYA are on completely equal footing, at least until her circuits are destroyed by AM's corruption

• her personal noble phantasms by the time she becomes a C-CG includes: Tristan • The Bow that never fails; and Lorelei • (The crystallization of her soul?)... but she's also projected several other never-before-seen NPs such as Buster Orion • Second Sin of the Virgin Goddess

===

any of this obviously wrong? including the stuff i mentioned i was unsure of. anything that i'm missing? like i asked at the beginning of the post, is there a single location to reference all this? |D

@throwaawy

She's alive.

It was implied that Shirou created the Seal Bow. That bow nuke used to defeat(?) Evil!EMIYA.

She merged with Illya copy.

Phantom canceller is also one of her NP, that is why she is able to match EMIYA, sword rain to deflect traced NP rain and Phantom Canceller to deal with the triumph cards.

AFAIK Frozen Fantasy • Phantom Canceller is the 2ndary/ultimate ability of Tristan, (like Ea's attack isn't 'Ea' but 'Enuma Elish')

much like Gae Bulg has the pierce and the thrown versions (tristan's primary ability is a point-blank-aoe nuke if i recall)

---

merged with a next-gen illya, her physical stats went down but her magic stats went through the roof?

• Forums are not to be used to post stories.
• All forum posts must be suitable for teens.
• The owner and moderators of this forum are solely responsible for the content posted within this area.
• All forum abuse must be reported to the moderators.