Reviews for The Gotham Knights of Middle Earth
Allyse chapter 9 . 12/22/2003
Phoenix, I'm sorry, but I couldn't even read this chapter. It was bad enough to give Boromir "red and blue traveling clothes" (not "cloths" - I really, strongly urge you to get a good beta); do you really think any sane person would go traipsing around in the wild in an outfit that would stand out in any terrain? But the sight of Robin bawling out Boromir - and even Aragorn taking a step back from him? - I just gave up. If you've read the books, as you say - or even watched Sean's marvelous portrayal of Boromir - then you ought to recognize Boromir as a noble, heroic figure who is tragically corrupted by the power of Ring, not some sneering chauvinist who needs taking down a peg. Have you any idea how offensive LotR fans would find your portrayal of so many of these characters?
Sam, Pippin, and Merry aren't welcome at the Council, but Tim and Cass are? Uh huh. Do I have to repeat myself in reference to the age thing? Tim and Cass ARE KIDS. Elrond would not send them along with a group of adults, no matter what their skills. Despite your claims to the contrary, their skills are just as easily found among M-e natives who are of age and won't warrant a charge of child abuse when all is said and done.
You've said many times that you've read the books, but you are clearly missing many themes and basic characterizations. Gandalf doesn't take an active hand in events until after he is "sent back"; he advises. Elrond didn't "summon" everyone; Eru arranged for them all to be there. Your mixing of bookverse and movieverse is confusing and frustrating, but worst of all, to me, is your dumbing down of every LotR character in order to make Tim and Cass shine.
Yes, I know Tim has faced Darkseid (he didn't, really; he directed the action. I read YJ too), King Snake, yadda yadda yadda, as you keep repeating in your reviews. I've always seen Cass as the Mary Sue of the Batverse (as Lady Shiva is of the DCU), but I can accept that view; it is, after all, your story. But when you push down hard on one side of the scale and lighten the other side too much, your story comes out skewed and unbalanced.
It was wise of you to put this in the Batman section, as most readers of LotR would find this downright painful. I know I have.
Phoenix, you clearly have a lot of fans out there who are enjoying this, so I'm sure you won't miss me. I wish you all the best, but for the sake of your story, please, *please* get a beta reader. You have way too many typos and homonym errors. ("beat" red," for example) Surely, if you put so much effort into creating a labor of love, you want it to be the best possible.
I wish you well for the rest of your story, as well as any future writing endeavors, but this is where I stop.
Lady Rurouni chapter 9 . 12/19/2003
You write well, handle your characters well etc This crossover is very well done indeed!
giveGodtheglory chapter 9 . 12/18/2003
Gr. I want more! LOL.
I've put you on author alert.
God bless you:D
giveGodtheglory chapter 7 . 12/18/2003
Last Homely House, not Last Lonely Home.
Still liking it, though:D
God bless you
giveGodtheglory chapter 5 . 12/18/2003
Glorfindle's hair is golden. That's what his name means.
Severly enjoying the story otherwise. So far.:D
God bless you.
Leigh Sims chapter 9 . 12/18/2003
LOL. LOVED IT! Keep em' comin' ;)
I loved the way I loved the way Robin stood up to that jerk...Heheh. And all of the guys responses to Batgirls costumes. LMAO Pervs.j/k
PLEASE update soon
Leigh_Sims(aka Falcon.)
Fusion Blaster chapter 9 . 12/17/2003
And we're here...
the Fellowship version 2.0
So far so good although my only complaint so far is Robin is abit more of a vulgar mouth than i expect him to act but i can understand his sentament with Boromir...some one had to say it.
rock on and keep'em coming.
Coral Skipper chapter 7 . 12/13/2003
Another excellent chapter. The next one should prove to be interesting.
Fusion Blaster chapter 7 . 12/13/2003
OH thats priceless...
Robin got glomped by Batgirl...
I really liked this chapter and some of the little details here and there.
Keep it up this had definatly been fun to read so far.
Leigh Sims chapter 6 . 12/11/2003
Oh. I just keep wanting to read more. Excellent writting. Its seems like a weird Idea at first to have a lotr/Batman cross over but it is VERY much a brilliant one. PLEASE update soon...Pwease.
phoenix83ad chapter 6 . 12/7/2003
Again, I thank you all for your reviews! I'm glad that you guys are enjoying my story (more or less...).
Look Allyse, obviously you’re a big fan of LOTR as am I myself, but you’ve got to understand that Batman and his crew aren’t lightweights. Saying "it's Batman" is not a 'cop-out.' It's a fact. Batman knows how to take out Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern and other people who are frankly 100 times more powerful than Aragorn, the Elves or many other beings in Middle-Earth could ever dream to be. Batman and his people have trained obssesively to be the best that humanity has to offer.
Everyone in the DC universe fears the Bat-Clan because they are the people are the most dangerous. They are mere mortals who have battled against Gods, Demons, and metahumans who make the creatures of middle-earth look like scared little puppies. The elves have trained and lived for centuries, yes I know. But Batman and crew has defeated creatures who have lived ions longer than the elves (Darksied, Klarion, Phallax, the Greek Gods, Etrigan, Ra's Al Ghul, etc..).
I'm not trying to make the Bat-Clan to be better than the Middle-Earth crew, but I am NOT going to down play their obviously extrodinary skills.
I'm sorry if you disagree, but there is no way that Aragorn can stand up to Batgirl in means of fighting skills. She has been trained in 127 different forms of combat since the day she was born. She killed a man when she was 7 years old and then kicked the butts of a dozen heavily armed full grown men as a warm down. All she knew until roughly a year ago was fighting.
And while Batgirl skills WERE weakened when she got speech, she has since then rebuilt them through her training with Batman AND Lady Shiva. If anything she is better than she was before.
The Ring Wraiths may be magically based in power they are still physical creatures (more or less). I mean Aragorn may have used a sword and torch, but he still fought them physically. Think about how the Wraith King is defeated at the end of Return of the King. And Batgirl has fought against magical beings in the past so saying say that her fight with the Wraiths was "unrealisitc" is a rather extreme.
As for Aragorn's teatment of women, I'm afriad that you are still thinking in a 20th century mentalitly towards Women.
While he does respect a woman's skills, he still feels a need to protect them. He denies Eowyn's assistance at Helm's Deep and in the final battle because he feels a need to protect her, solely because she is a woman. At Helm's Deep all the women are denied to help. Mankind in Middle-Earth is still a male dominated society, and thus women no matter how skilled they are, will always be underestimated by men. I'm sorry to say it, but sexism still exists in Middle-Earth.
And when Cassie said "I'm not your lady," to Aragorn it wasn't because she took offense to it. She was joking! :~) She doesn't take gallantry as offensive shots. She knows the difference. She just doesn't like to be coddled. She feels that she has a right to be treated just like everyone else. She earned her skills and feels that she shouldn't have to play them down for others.
And you are right, Glorfindel isn't Elrond's son. I mis-read a passage in LOTR that confused me on the subject.
As for why Cassie is going to Rivendell, where else is she going to go? The hobbits are the only friends she has made so far, so she might as well go with them.
And finally Robin and Batgirl's parts in the war of the ring... well don't assume you know anything about what I have planned. ;~)
Again thanks for the reviews guys. And Allyse, I understand you don't want me to damage to the LOTR story, but you've gotta relax. I'm doing my best to stay true to the LOTR characters as I am to the Bat-teens, but I am not going to down play Batgirl and Robin.
Thanks again guys.
Alan AKA phoenix83ad
JadedHarmony chapter 6 . 12/7/2003
love the story! Update son...
Allyse chapter 6 . 12/7/2003
Sigh.
I hate to keep carping on the same thing, really I do. But as I said in my very first post, you are doing your fic a disservice when you skew things so much in the direction of one of the universes.
Let's start with the explanation you gave me in your courteous reply to my last review, when you explain, "It's Batman!" for Cassie's and Tim's superior skills. Okay, so you're a fan of the uberBat. I'm not, but that's besides the point. :) What *is* the point is that if "It's Batman!" is a sufficent explanation, than you must equally accept "They're elves!" or "It's Aragorn!" It's not enough to assert, "Of course Cass/Tim are at home in rural areas, because Batman would have trained them!" and, at the same time, claim, "Well, Aragorn can't possibly be as good as Cass/the elves can't be as good as Tim, because they weren't trained by Batman." No, indeed; they were trained by elves who suffered much greater tragedies than Batman, over centuries of time, and fought much greater monsters and "metas." "Because it's Batman!" isn't an answer, really. It's just an excuse, and, to be honest, a bit of a copout.
On a smaller note, I'd like to point out that if you want the practically Super-Cass, you shouldn't have given her speech. She lost a great deal of her uncanny abilities when she learned how to talk.
I also wish to address the misogyny you attribute to Aragorn, which you use to explain why he underestimated Cass and, in this last chapter, tried to "protect" her. Accept my apologies in advance, but you've really hit one of my hot buttons here. :)
Where, WHERE does this silly idea come from? Why do so many fic writers of the movieverse think that Aragorn (or Gimli, or Boromir) hate/despise women? Why does Cass think bitterly about what she's been through, and if Aragorn only knew, he wouldn't take her for granted? Why *would* he, for Eru's sake? There is absolutely no basis for it in the movies, and even less in the books. Is it because of the supposed "medieval" setting? LotR actually takes place many thousands of years before the Middle Ages, but the weaponry might lead some to make that assumption. Is it because there are so few women in the book? I will readily concede this, but the small number of women is more than offset by the sheer *power* of every woman that does appear. Aragorn's (and Arwen's) ultimate grandmother Luthien not only took down Sauron practically single-handedly, but took down Sauron's MASTER single-handedly. Galadriel? Older than the sun (though she doesn't look it ), and the most powerful elf east of the Sea. Arwen? Movieverse Arwen is hardly looked down upon, and bookverse Arwen is cherished, NOT coddled.
You mentioned Eowyn, and the way Aragorn "treats" her. How is this, exactly? The movie version treats her with all courtesy and does not denigrate her abilities. The book version does even more. Eowyn is called a "shieldmaiden" because the Rohirrim do, indeed, train their women in war. Are you referring to his refusal to let her take the Paths of the Dead with him in RotK? Consider this: Eowyn essentially abandoned her post as leader of her people to go fight against the W-K, an action that, in time of war, can be well considered treasonous. Granted, she won. :) But the "traitor or heroine?" question is still spiritedly debated among Tolkien fans.
Granted, Aragorn is invariably courteous, both to men and women. (His impatience with the hobbits is unusual, and he apologizes later; he thinks, and probably rightly, that they don't take their dilemma seriously enough.) But to bring a DC comparison, would you consider Clark Kent to be contemptuous of women just because he holds doors open for them? Would you consider *Alfred* to be disparaging Cassie's abilities, just because he insists on calling her "Miss Cassandra"? Equating gallantry with contempt is not only false, but also unfair. There is no reason in the world for Aragorn to expect less of a woman, except, of course, for the naturally lesser strength that comes with the lesser musculature of a woman's body. Cassie might be capable of more than Aragorn expects because of her training, but *not* because of her gender.
The only woman in LotR who fits the "quiet little woman" stereotype is Rosie, who is the archetype "childhood sweetheart" and, indeed, inspiration, for Sam. I don't understand how a reader can get from *that* to the idea that "Aragorn thinks women can't do anything."
If you want to suggest that Aragorn underestimates Cassie because of her *age*... Now, there's an argument that can be made for many humans on M-e, and certainly the hobbits. Pippin is 29 and is still considered a "tweenager" and not adult. Cassie, at 16, is barely out of diapers as far as they're concerned. Unfortunately, Aragorn, as one of the Dunedain, is well used to men, as well as women, getting early training, so the argument won't heold there, either. (Consider that the children in the Riddermark are also armed, and that Eomer is only 26 when he is crowned King of the Rohirrim, and you'll realize that the Riders are equally progressive in that respect.) Other than that, I would point out that you don't even let Aragorn *see* Cassie before she pins him, so that argument wouldn't hold even if it had merit. It *does*, however, bring up another question: Why is Cassie going along with them to Rivendell?
I confess that I hadn't realized, when I first started reading your fic, that this was going to be a "join the Fellowship" fic. In a nutshell: Why? *Why* are the hobbits and Strider letting this human kid traipse along with them into danger? I suppose this means that Tim will be accompanying Legolas, too. What a pity. You have wonderful potential to explore the other exciting aspects of the Great War, things that have nothing to do with the Fellowship and allow you lots of room to explore without getting in the way of canon. Why not have Cassie get into a (much more realistic) fight with, say, Bill Ferny and a group of Southerners who try to waylay Frodo and Co. as they leave Bree? I would love to see her leaving them groaning, feeling satisfied that Frodo and Strider got away safely. Why not have Cassie join up with the Rangers who try to fight off Saruman's invading forces in the North? And Tim - why should he leave Mirkwood? How exciting to join Thranduil in beating off the Nazgul of Dol Goldur, and wouldn't it be marvelous if he was there when Thranduil and Celeborn meet under the eaves of Mirkwood in victory? If you insist on having them join the Fellowship - a premise with huge plot holes that has been done umpteen times before - you'll have at least one very disappointed reader. M-e is *packed* with facinating story lines and events; just take a quick look at Appendix B of RotK, which gives a detailed timeline of everything happening everywhere else in M-e while the chronicled events of the Fellowship take place. Please don't suggest that Cass and Tim will give the Fellowship badly needed firepower; not only is that highly insulting to the members of the Fellowship, but it misses the point entirely. Elrond could have easily chosen uber-elves like Glorfindel if they needed sheer power. The whole point was to keep things secret, but with enough people to get them through any messes along the way.
Since I mentioned it in the previous paragraph, I will expand here on the, sorry, ridiculousness of Cass taking on the Black Riders. This is MAGIC. More powerful, more elemental magic than anything Klarion could help to wield. The Ringwraiths can't be attacked by physical strength, since they're not actually part of the physical realm. Cassie's kick should have essentially passed through nothing and left her sprawled ignobly on the ground. Aragorn didn't make any real physical contact with the R-Ws; he fought them with the sword (the swords, at least, are real) and with fire, which they feared. It did not actually damage them, per se. I suppose you could contend that Cassie's experience with the Scarecrow should leave her immune to the R-W's attacks, but the former is fear caused by chemicals, and the latter is a magical, primal fear that is almost impossible to contest.
I don't want you to think I didn't like the chapter at all. I did. I enjoyed watching Cass slowly warm up to Strider, and seeing how an outsider could so easily misinterpret Aragorn's brooding silences for hostility. I thought your personality comparisons of Aragorn/Bruce and Frodo/Tim to be interesting, even if I don't nec'ly agree with them. :) And thank you, THANK YOU for giving Aragorn his grey eyes! I've had a crush on the guy since I was ten and I'm glad to see you restore his good looks, no insult to Viggo intended. :) I don't read enough of Batgirl to know she has the same aversion to knives that Batman has, but it surely makes sense for her to prefer her trusty utility belt. Despite my dislike of her fight with the R-Ws, it was fun to watch her using Bat-stuff; too bad there was no time for Aragorn to question her about those whizzes and bangs! Gandalf would be interested, no doubt. :) And the thermal cape (too bad Dick didn't have one of those, back in the day; it would've helped with the bare legs! ) was a nice touch too. :) It was good to see Cass recognize that first-aid and healing are as essential a part to her never-ending battle as the martial arts stuff, and nice references to Alfred and Leslie. Most of all, I liked those final few paras, when you gave us an idea of what must have been like to have the hobbits and Cass follow behind, wondering what happened after Frodo disappeared. (Okay, I *do* prefer the scene in the book, but this was great extrapolation from the movie.) I especially liked that "smallest of true smiles" line - very Striderish.
I've already mentioned my intense dislike for Cassie's assumption that a courteous "milady" is the same as "you can't do anything," although I will also point out here that Cass should have understood that she'd do more to help the hobbits if she'd actually stayed with them.
One final thing, in reference to your comment on my last review: if you take a quick look at Appendix B in RotK, you will see that Elrond married Celebrian in the year 100 of the Third Age. Elladan and Elrohir were born thirty-nine years later; Arwen was born 102 years after that. In contrast, Glorfindel had been around in the time of the Two Trees, which means, like Galadriel, that he is *literally* older than the sun. :) His great power against the R-Ws is a direct result of that ancient voyage to the West and his stay in Valinor. Elrond, in comparison, is only half-elven, and was born long after the sun's creation at the end of the First Age. So, sorry; I'd love to see what citation you're using, but there is NO WAY that Glorfindel is Elrond's son. :)
Sorry for being so long-winded again! :) If you don't think it's rude of me to offer, and you would be interested in a general beta for your story, as well as someone to check up on your M-e facts, I'd enjoy that. I think you've got a great premise here and I look forward to seeing where you're going - as long as you don't allow Tim and Cass to knock out Frodo and Sam and take off for Mordor themselves. ;)
RobinofYJ chapter 6 . 12/6/2003
Just found your story.
I'm enjoying how you are able to fit in BG and Robin into LOTR without any major alterations. Looking foward to your next update.
Coral Skipper chapter 6 . 12/5/2003
Your still doing good. I cannot wait for the next chapter.
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