Reviews for Indefinite Objects
silberstreif chapter 1 . 2/15/2013
Wow. I've been playing with the idea of a logical language and what it means for quite some time, so when I found this totally by chance I was very happy. And then the research! And details! Wow. Just wow.
It's an interesting problem though.
As is the beauty question. I've read studies that have proven that the human sense of beauty can be based on the golden ratio. So, if a race defines beauty by a number and less by a feeling this question would pose a problem, even if essentially they would find the same things beautiful. But what if they don't define beauty by the golden ratio?
The same with love. Let's take a common fanon trope and say they can feel each others feelings. Then suddenly we would have a very absolute answer if someone is feeling love or hate. Then maybe we would have an absolute for freedom.
Or let's go further. If we have a language in which everything has a number and logical - that language would have far more words than our language. In short, they might have a more precise language. If one would translate "freedom is the right of all sentient beings" maybe we would get more something like the number of a law book " 23432342 is to be provided for all beings (defined as being able to reproduce, being aware and grow) of the intelligence class 4-B or higher".
...
Okay, I got carried away. Let's just say this is amazing, and it really made my day I found this. I especially liked the spin that the Cybertronians might be just AIs that play at being sentient. Definitely thought-provoking!
silber
Balrog Roike chapter 1 . 9/25/2011
A very interesting story that is chilling when you keep thinking about it and how hard it would be to prove one or the other and what could happen, regardless of the final verdict.

What I wonder is: What proof do we have, that we, as in the humans, aren't functioning as Chinese rooms as well. One core conscious, programmed by genetics from birth, with a basic rule book that has been amassed by our gentic ancestors and collecting new rules and symbols with each second we live. Even our definition of "beautiful" could be nothing but a mix of inherited and learned "truths" in the end, and the personality we show is nothing but a Chinese room we present to each other while our core happily compares away if something is true or not?

While Maggie's last question definitely isn't meant this way, I wonder, what she and Glen would think about this.

Personally I wonder if it really matters if the Bots are Chinese rooms or not. The theory was meant for our computer systems and there it is pretty easy to see if the Chinese room can keep up with a human mind or not. But in case of the Cybertronians, who have existed for millenia, have encountered other species(Freedom is the right of ALL sentient beings, not just Cybertronians, so they are aware that there are more species out there) and have collected countless rules in the end - isn't that already a true personality in the end? Individual in every single one of them instead one shared rulebook? And if it wouldn't be - wouldn't they noticeably change in even a short time just to fit human expectations instead of fooling around with puns?

I'm sorry I'm ranting so much, but ther story and the thought behind it is really intriguing. Good job.
beege chapter 1 . 4/21/2011
Wow. Brilliant and eerie. Especially when Maggie is studying Ratchet's face near the end.

From a writing point of view your author's notes actually undermine the story a little, since they seem to imply that Maggie has less to worry about than she thinks, since the odds of the autobot language having a buried inconsistency *somewhere* are high. From a scientific point of view however, interesting stuff.

I kept waiting for Glenn to make the argument about a truly perfect simulacrum of something arguably having the same value as what it's a copy of, since it's one of the counters to the chinese room problem.
arctapus chapter 1 . 11/14/2010
Wow, was that eerie. :-D What an incredible thought. I think it rather explains Prowl well though. :-D :0)

Wonderful. and scary.
Yoru Hana1 chapter 1 . 8/24/2010
I'm a little confused by what Maggie saw when she looked at Ratchet at the end. But this was cool.

Though, if they wanted proof that it's not all logic inside them all they'd have to do woul be to talk to Red Alert for a short bit. Or to see a bot more controled by logic then most, talk to Prowl.
Queen of the Red Skittle chapter 1 . 8/11/2010
Beautifully done. Love the amount of detail and research which went into it, and the fact you clearly wrote the piece in a way everyone could enjoy it (i.e - not way over our heads).

-Q
Uniasus chapter 1 . 7/29/2010
Wow, that's some pretty heavy research you did for this! But I like and appreciate it, because it's fiction will some sort of fact at it's core like all good sci-fi should be. Plus it actually looking in the world and characters of the Cybertronians, and being a world builder I love to see that.

Wonderfully written logic horror. (Tis the *only* type of horror I can stand) I can just see that mental click happen in Glen mind, and everything was very clear to follow. And both were very in character, which I love.
18828646465 chapter 1 . 12/20/2009
Creepy to say the least, but I like it. A lot. It made me think, which is not something I do all the time when idly reading fanfiction.
DarkDanc3r chapter 1 . 12/13/2009
This was... awesome. Absolutely amazing. I went to school for Anthropology, and now I've got degrees in both Anthropology and Religious Studies, and reading this brought to mind several things I remember thinking in class.

Actually, when Glenn mentioned Ghost in the Shell and the Tachicomas, I grinned. I took a class that was actually called 'Robots and Religion,' and wrote my paper on whether or not the Tachicomas had souls.

And now I kind of wish I was back in school, instead of taking time off, so that I would have an actual, logical excuse to do a little more exploration into this idea. Let alone looking into the potential for religious thought - most of which, admittedly, is a fan-created concept, but the point remains.

Cool.
kenobi1985 chapter 1 . 12/1/2009
Wow. Um... Have you ever read Cormac McCarthy's "All the Pretty Horses"? It has some awesome imagery in it, especially the concept of a blind coin maker blindly selecting metal slugs and just as blindly putting them in a pressing machine. And depending on which side is up or down in that machine determines which side gets what design (or a blank face, depending on the currency being created, I suppose). It's an elaborate representation of/for Fate and God, or whether either exists at all or if it’s nothing but pure chance. Great book by a great author. But on the subject of Cybertronian A.I., I just don't buy it; but then I'm not a mathematician or whatever. One could argue the same about us. It sounds like something someone would come up with in a science lab, studying organisms (organic or otherwise) to see if they can prove whether intelligence exists or not. But then I'm a humanist/animal lover/vegan and I don't believe in dividing a living organism into its base components (read: vivisection) regardless of reason or possible "benefit to humanity". Just don't go there, 'kay. Please excuse the rant. I apologize if I offend you in anyway with anything I’ve written. I have very strong views. Anyway, as I see it, from a G1 (original Transformers) point-of-view, the really Cybertronians developed a "glitch" in their programming and this eventually led to them rebelling against their Quintessonian masters/creators and ultimately to their separate "evolution" as a sentient, if non-organic, species. Those same "glitches" in our programming (i.e.: minds or DNA) have lead to our own evolution, though they could just as easily have led to our destruction at the beginning of our existence as a new species, whenever that was. And still might for that matter, if we don’t do ourselves in first. Still, great job on this piece, even if I found it to be a trifle bit confusing, what with the technical language being used and all. Speaking of language: as I see it, it is a construct of our society, a by-product as it were, of our development in the last few thousand years or so. You could argue the same for the Cybertronians, non-organic/A.I. factors aside, though on a much larger timescale than our own of course. Sorry for the length of this review/feedback-thing.
Lady Dragon2 chapter 1 . 11/22/2009
This was reccomended to mine & AprilRavenGirl's new TF epic recs comm on LJ. I've never read it before.

It's definitely thought-provoking! Very interesting, very well-written, and I hope you get some more readers through us.

Thank you for sharing! My brain is going to be reeling now for a while. D

Much Love

LD
Artemis1000 chapter 1 . 11/12/2009
I gotta raise my metaphorical hat to you. That wasn't a light read, certainly, but it's a very fascinating and thought-provoking one. I can only imagine with trepidation the hours of research you had to put into it. Then you actually worded your thoughts and arguments in a comprehensive and understandable way (which, I imagine, really isn't a walk in the park with such a complicated subject, I wouldn't even dare to try) and you kept it in-character, too! The mathematics went a bit over my head as the whole mechanics of a logical language were new to me, but I'm utterly fascinated by the Chinese room scenario and so I love how you applied it to a "real" world situation.

Among the philosophy and science, there were also some parts in that story that made me shiver. Like the question who created them as the transforming, pretending machines they are if the Chinese room theory is true. And then just as I was still wondering about the implications of there being some "other" who directs the fate of the Cybertronians and thus also earth, Ratchet just so happens to come across them as he takes some time off to smell the roses.

I found his explanation that he'd come to look at something beautiful utterly creepy... Maybe this just plain disproved all their theories and Cybertronians have souls or Ratchet is trying to add to his rulebook, but it might also have been him informing her that the Autobots know about Maggie's research or even a threat not to dig deeper.

Although the thought that their whole war started over some code malfunction is even creepier. Because if a glitch caused that once, it could happen again and the nice, friendly neighbourhood Autobots could turn into humanity's exterminators because of the mech equivalent of a Blue Screen of Doom.
The Otherworlder chapter 1 . 8/1/2009
Wow. Just... Wow!

Who would've thought that a fanfiction can make my brain hurt SO much. But this is a FASCINATING story that offers truly amazing, probably never-thought-elsewhere ideas. I really want to say something intelligent, but I just have to think abut this, mull it a bit what you've said, lol.
Yew chapter 1 . 7/20/2009
Ah, you've rendered me brain-dead!

It's very well written though. The info and pacing is very well thought out.

You must be very good at writing essays also!
anonymous chapter 1 . 7/14/2009
WOW, very impressive. You know, for someone like me who dislikes math, I actually followed that pretty well. very interesting. Nice job! :):):):)
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