Reviews for Indefinite Objects
Yew chapter 1 . 7/20/2009
Ah, you've rendered me brain-dead!

It's very well written though. The info and pacing is very well thought out.

You must be very good at writing essays also!
anonymous chapter 1 . 7/14/2009
WOW, very impressive. You know, for someone like me who dislikes math, I actually followed that pretty well. very interesting. Nice job! :):):):)
Cedarleaf chapter 1 . 6/26/2009
...Dang. I only understood about half of that, I think, but what I did understand, I find fascinating. Like Autobots only really being ghosts in the shell, about them not really being artificial intelligence. Like this whole war with the Decepticons started over an inconsistency in logic. You kinda blew my mind here, like a lot. You've obviously put a lot of thought and time into this. I can do nothing but applaud you.
Darklight8121 chapter 1 . 6/20/2009
Wow...gee I feel like I'm back in my ?Bio-Psychology class again... I actually was able to understand that AND freak out because of what Maggie(You) were saying. You really made me think on this one. Very well done and certainly is a relief that the whole verse is just Sci-fi...(shivers)

Darklight
Bookworm Gal chapter 1 . 5/1/2009
Ah.. My brain. It hurts. LOL Really, that was pretty cool. However, think about the name Decepticons. Deception. Essentially a whole faction is about hiding the truth. The most effective lies are half-truths or ones that are harder to prove or disprove. So at least the Decepticon could possibly understand more abstract and debatable concepts, if only so that they can take advantage of them. And because the Transformers presumably have the same language, regardless of side (big assumption there), the languange may not be as completely logical as they believe. As you said, it is possible to be wrong about yourself.

Again, loved the story. It is probably good for me to have to think sometimes.
a nobody chapter 1 . 1/10/2009
..wow absolutely fantastic (even if it was kinda hard o follow)! great ending
Dvana chapter 1 . 1/7/2009
A really interesting piece, and a chance to stretch my dusty ol' philosopher's cap. I'll definitely be taking a look at your references. (The internet is a beautiful thing!) Not having either read much of what you address or the larger part of Transformers continuity, I'm coming to a battle of wits unarmed, but I'll throw this in the ring anyway. Aren't transformers by their own continuity in fact a sort of Chinese box? If I understand the concept correctly, the Spark would be the operator in this case... a Transformer, for all their talk of circuits and processors, is (to my understanding) contained more or less completely in that spark. Even when a robot is rebuilt after destruction and re-sparked (again, running almost purely on wiki here) it seems that they come out of the experience essentially changed.

Of course, that doesn't necessarily make this a truth in the movies, where we do have a limited view of how they view themselves and the universe. In that framework, your story does raise some uncomfortable questions, as well as building an argument that it's hard to refute without a sort of arm-flailing denial.

Thank you for sharing this, and I look forward to exploring the ideas you've set forth here.
Shinnscape chapter 1 . 11/2/2008
Brilliant stuff! A real head spinner.
Ember Koramin chapter 1 . 7/5/2008
Woah.

Just, just woah. I'm not sure I followed all the nuances of that, but I certainly followed the basic gist of it. I seriously never thought of that. ComPLETELY whacked. But you did a very good job in any case. Thank you so very much for a story that is entirely different from everything here.
sonofan8track chapter 1 . 4/17/2008
Whoa. I am in awe after reading this. The skill and intellect behind this is amazing. I'm very glad I decided to read a 2007 moiveverse story after all. Not only does a story like this make one think, but it deepens all the characters concerned in that universe. (Something they very much needed.) It also gives a reason for the Cybertronians in the movie not having much in the way of personality, with an exception or two. Plus, you had Glenn and Maggie dead-on in my opinion. Thank you.
Riana1 chapter 1 . 4/15/2008
You. Are. Bloody. Brilliant.

This was fabulous, deep and inviting to swim in. How do you reach beyond the spit and polish to metal, marrow of this world.

You are a writer like Plato, spinning a world of light and air into words for us poor fools studying shadows on the wall.
C448PVP chapter 1 . 4/10/2008
Wow, that certainly is a long bibliography. I think that's the first time I've ever actully seen a bibliography in a fanfic. You must have put a huge amount of effort into writing this. I've never heard of Godel's Theorum or the Chinese room before. Well, ya learn something new every day.

Very impressive and unique fic. I really liked it! Keep up the good work.
Calger chapter 1 . 4/10/2008
First off, sorry for the long delay in reviewing this, this was probably your deepest fic yet and it required some thought! I know nothing about math theorems and hadn't heard of the Chinese room, so thanks for the introduction and the insight! It's really interesting material, and does raise very intriguing questions about our alien robot friends. Leave it to you to take a crack fic and make something serious out of it! What I love most about this though is the ambiguity, and Maggie's uncertainty even at the end whether Ratchet is truly sentient, or if her theory is right, which has implications reaching far beyond whether a flower is beautiful. I do wonder though what Maggie thinks about the fact that they do seem to have emotions similar to ours. Is such a thing possible from a Chinese room scenario, from an AI (which as shown by AI such as Star Trek's Data and Knight Rider's KITT is not a simple thing to achieve!) and if not then what does that mean? She also makes the assumption that what we're seeing IS a form of AI...but who's to say it is? Does she only assume AI because they're machines? Why can't their intelligence be "natural" like ours presumably is? If they were generated by the Cube, I suppose that can be an argument for AI as created by another machine, but what if that energy just causes a cerebral structure to form, much like an organic creature forming from dividing cells?

And perhaps most intriguing of all, when you really get down to it, is what this means for OUR intelligence. Could we be some sort of organic Chinese room, but never know it ourselves? Our bodies are built by DNA, a rulebook of sorts, our thoughts and behavior are affected by hardwired instinct, chemicals and proteins, and that's without even getting into the concept of a soul. How do those things become thought and sentience? I wonder of any of the mathematical theorems were ever applied to humans, or if they only addressed AI created by us.

In any event, thank you for this wonderfully researched and intriguing piece, this one'll be with me for awhile ;)
Carmilla DeWinter chapter 1 . 4/5/2008
I'm here in teh blumchenkinder's advice, and I find this piece incredibly interesting and well-written.

Your impression of Glen and Maggie seems dead on, too.

I'm also highly impressed that you did all this research for a bit of fanfiction, something I'd be hard-pressed to do.
Second Harrier chapter 1 . 4/4/2008
This story is somewhat frightening in its implications- or rather, the implications of Maggie's train of thought. You lost me a bit at the outset when you were laying out Gödel's theorem, but I got the gist of the argument soon enough. A quick trip to Wikipedia gave me a good enough understanding of the Chinese room argument to grasp that part of the discussion, too.

It WOULD be rather terrifying if the Autobots were mindless operators interacting with the galaxy via a logic system- and that a sequence error was the only thing separating the Autobots from the Decepticons.

But when I came to the conclusion Maggie was moving towards- a bit faster than Glenn- that the Cybertronians might in fact not be 'sentient' in the same way we are, it made me feel... sad.

Sad that colorful personalities like Jazz, Bumblebee, Ratchet, Optimus Prime, and Ironhide might simply be automatons, functioning within a closed logical system, where ideas like 'freedom' have truth value but no deeper meaning.

It is, in essence, an argument that Transformers don't have souls.

Ratchet appears at the end, and I'm not sure if he is a comfort or not. On the one hand, he could still be ruminating on Maggie's question, and seeking things he considers beautiful in order to understand why he does so. OR he could have done a Google Image Search for 'beautiful,' turned up images of flowers and birds and trees, and gone to collect data on those things, in order to properly assign a truth value of 'True' to 'flowers/birds/trees are beautiful.'

But he wouldn't need to contemplate them if it were that simple, would he?

It's a problematic story, and I say this in the best way. Expertly written, too.

(Although... if all your 2007 Movie stories take place within the same 'fan-continuity,' wouldn't that mean we already know Maggie's wrong- because we've been inside the minds of the Autobots?)
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