Disclaimer - I do not own Naruto.

Chapter 14 - Battle: Sennin vs Akatsuki Part II

Last Time

Hashirama vs Hidan and Kakuzu

Hashirama frowned, "So that's how you have stayed alive all this time. I find that ironic since it's obvious you don't have a heart yourself."

"Save me the words. You know it doesn't matter what you say. Now die!"

The former Shodai evaded the stone fist of the heart-stealing nin and immediately unleashed his technique, "Mokuton: Sashiki no Jutsu."

A sharp branch of wood erupted from Hashirama's arm and he used it as a blade to slash at his opponent. Having no time to dodge, Kakuzu used his stone arm to block it. The two kage-level shinobi struggled in the clash, both determined to overpower the other. After a couple of seconds of struggle, they forced off each other, gazing at their opponent for a second. Kakuzu then began to laugh raising Hashirama's curiosity and caution level, "What are you laughing about?"

Kakuzu stopped laughing and grinned, "I should know by now not to hold back with you. I made that mistake last time. I will not again. Behold now the secret to my immortality, Takigakure's Secret, Forbidden Jutsu: Earth Grudge Fear."

Tobirama vs. Kisame

"I put down my Samehada and you stop ninjutsu. We both fight, hand to hand. No weapons, no jutsu."

"I didn't think I'd hear such a thing from you," Tobirama said smirking.

"Normally, I wouldn't dream of it," Kisame admitted. "But it's much more interesting than the alternative."

"Hmph," Tobirama pondered for a minute. "Very well. It was getting boring trying to wait for you to tire out. I guess the gaki has rubbed off on me some. But do know if you use any jutsu when he start, the result will not be to your liking."

"Yeah I got it, but let's make the arena a little more. . . our style," Kisame then flashed through a couple hand signs. "Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha!"

A great eruption of water flooded out like a tsunami as Tobirama quickly used his chakra control to protect himself from the massive torrent. However, the water did not dissipate like Tobirama originally thought it would. Instead, it formed a massive dome of water around him.

"What the hell is going on?" Tobirama then heard from nearby 'Suirō Sameodori no Jutsu' and he returned his gaze to his opponent only for his eyes to widen in shock. His blade was finishing up fusing to its master, leaving a shark humanoid behind. The new Kisame was grinning with razor sharp teeth, "Ready for the fist fight, Nidaime-san? I look forward to ripping you to shreds!"

Minato vs. Deidara

The Yondaime plows the spiraling, chakra sphere right into Deidara, knocking him off his clay bird and hurdling him into the ground in a large explosion of chakra. Minato landed nearby, "Direct hit, but I doubt it'll be that easy."

Sure enough, as the dust cleared, Deidara slowly got up. He was obviously pissed, "You! YOU piece of-"

"Yeah, yeah, I got it already. Are you going to fight or what?" Minato uttered impatiently.

Deidara sneered, "You want a fight, yeah. Fine then. I'll show you my C3 explosives!"

A large poof of smoke filled the air. Minato gazed on to see it clear and his eyes widened in surprise when they did. Deidara was now riding a large, clay dragon holding clay figurines in his hands. The dragon took to the skies as Deidara readied himself to throw the figurines, "Now, Yondaime-sama, let me show you my art! Take this!"

Deidara threw the clay bombs and Minato readied another kunai.


A massive explosion ripped through the desert launching sand everywhere. Minato had barely managed to escape the blast radius with the hiraishin. His eyes narrowed, "Well. . . shit."

Mito vs. Sasori

The puppet master flew backwards and crashed into the sand with a heavy thud. Sasori slowly arose and tried to fire his senbon again but noticed his jaw and firing mechanism were shattered. His eyes narrowed, "So you think you've beaten me? What kind of puppet master would I be if this was my only puppet."

Suddenly, the puppet broke apart and out of it appeared a young man with red hair wearing an Akatsuki cloak. Mito's eyes widened, "Wait a minute, how are you that young?"

Sasori chuckled, "I guess the information you have on the Akatsuki is not as good as you once thought. No matter, I think it's about time I ended this fight."

He summoned forth another puppet; a puppet known as the Sandaime Kazekage, "Do you not agree, Mito-san?"

Kushina vs. Konan

Still Konan evaded before finally summoning paper chakrams to deflect the chains giving her an opening. She formed a spike with her paper and fired it at Kushina. Her chains immediately vanished as she dodged the paper spike, which bursts into paper slips flying everywhere. Kushina's keen eye caught writing on the slips of paper and she immediately knew what they were. Paper bombs.


Kushina had narrowly avoided the trap as she glared up at the paper woman, "Clever but not good enough to beat me, dattebane! Take this, Kuchiyose no Jutsu!"

A giant explosion of smoke revealed the giant spider Kushina used during the fight with the ROOT nin. The spider launched itself at the paper angel who summoned forth a paper sword and flew around the spider like a buzzing fly. She slashed the spider on its legs causing it to rise up to strike downward with its fangs giving Konan the opening to strike at its soft underbelly. The spider collapsed and the blue-haired woman turned towards her red-head counterpart.

Kushina sighed, "This isn't going to be as easy as I thought, dattebane."

Hiruzen vs. Itachi

He swung the massive staff and it enlarged into immense size striking Itachi, whose Susanoo rib cage cracked, sending him flying. Landing, Itachi stared down his opponent, "It appears that an incomplete Susanoo is not enough for my full defense against you Hiruzen."

"It's strong but it won't protect you against me," Hiruzen said. "You may be a kage-level shinobi but I wasn't known as the Shinobi no Kami for nothing, you know."

"Indeed, it appears I must go all out. Behold the power of Susanoo."

With that, a large, red, skeletal phantasm surrounded Itachi's body. It brazened a sword and shield and prepared for battle. Hiruzen's eyes narrowed. It appear time for the monkey to fight the giant.

Kaosu vs. Zetsu

Suddenly, roots shot from the ground entangling Kaosu. The Harbinger blinked, "What?"

"Got you. Time to die."

"Not this time," Kaosu grinned. "Kage Majustu: Yami no Shio!"

A black mass spread down from Kaosu and covered the ground. Kaosu melted into the ground. Zetsu's eyes widened as he immediately tried to leave the black-covered ground. However, a wall of blackness blocked his way. The instant he stopped, Kaosu charged out of the wall seeking to take Zetsu's head off. Zetsu, much to Kaosu's surprise, threw of the Akatsuki cloak and split in two. The white half and black half evaded the attack and one attempted to strike at him. Immediately, Kaosu melted back into the ground.

"Come on out, harbinger!"

"Afraid to fight us two on one?!"

Naruto vs. Pein

"Uzumaki Naruto, it is time you fell and I showed you who the true Nidaime Rikudo Sennin is," Pein said.

"Hehe," Naruto chuckled. "Nidaime Rikudo Sennin? I never claimed that. I am the Rikudo Sennin Reborn. Completely different."

Pein glared, "Regardless of what you may or may not claim, I am the Sennin's only true heir. And I shall crush you, pretender."

With that, five more figures appeared. The other five paths of the Six Paths of Pein had arrived.

"Prepare to die, Kyuubi."

"Bring it on, Nagato."

Real Time

Kaosu vs Zetsu

A dark laughter filled the air after Zetsu spoke those lines. Both Zetsu's could feel the blackness creeping into their vision and both felt a chill of fear crawl down their spine as Kaosu spoke from out of the black nothingness around the twin Akatsuki spies, "Afraid? Don't make me laugh? Fear and cowardice mean trembling and a fleeing before something you behold. I have not trembled before you nor have I fled from you. I'm simply waiting."

"Waiting?" White Zetsu asked nervous and on alert.

"What could you possibly be waiting for?" The black side of Zetsu asked equally cautious.

That was when a chilling, dark voice crept over Black Zetsu shoulder, "Death."

Zetsu barely evaded the scythe swing as it swung seeking to cleave him in two. White reacted by using his Mokuton to attack the harbinger but he faded into the black mist around them before the attack made contact. A second later a long crack was heard behind him and White Zetsu evaded. He turned and saw wood, thanks to Black Zetsu, shattering as a scythe plunged down straight to where his white counterpart used to be before fading back into the smoke-like substance.

"Kage Majustu: Kage no Hiso," a chilling voice called out and out of the mist a dozen, spear-headed, ethereal chains erupted and fired at both Zetsus.

Suddenly, a black tornado formed between the two essentially cutting them off from aiding each other further. For the first time since their creation, both Zetsu's suddenly utterly and truly knew fear as the chains rocketed towards them at a blind speed. They attempted to evade but were horrified to find their legs were encased somehow by the black mist. The chains struck through them with unrelenting ferocity. Surprisingly, they chains didn't seemed to harm them, but they soon realized that killing them was not the main purpose for the attack. The chains suddenly reverse their movement dragging the two sides of Zetsu straight towards Kaosu, who had just appeared at the chain's spawn point. Kaosu readied his scythe which seemed to gleam with excitement. When they were about 15 feet away, Kaosu unleashed his technique.

"Kage Majutsu: Shi Kama."

Kaosu's scythe suddenly enlarged to about three times its normal size and was surrounded by dark, purple energy which took the shape of a fiercer, more demonic scythe. Using both hands, Kaosu swung. The blow cleaved their bodies in two but the most devistating damaged was not seen. The attack summoned part of the Shinigami's chakra causing ruptures in chakra pathways and breaking a target's soul, making sure the Shinigami's chakra was still used only to bring souls to him. This one attack was all Kaosu needed to end the fight and to prevent it from streaming even further out of control.

Kaosu gasped taking in deep breaths to catch his breath and to recover as his opponents hit the floor and the mist surrounding the area faded away. True, he was a Harbinger of Yami, but utilizing the Shinigami's chakra was very dangerous. During the technique, one temporarily stopped living. A risky technique, one that couldn't be used more than once, but one very much worth the risk. He didn't even want to think what those two halves could do with Mokuton. Knowing how powerful the Shodaime Hokage was with it; he didn't want or need to find out how they compared.

After recovering, Kaosu sighed, "Better join up with. . ."

Kaosu's head suddenly jolted with extreme pain as he collapsed unconscious to the sandy floor. His dark chakra flowed over out him but, unlike normal, it's presence decayed the sand on which it touched. . .

Tobirama vs Kisame

Tobirama used is chakra control and his Suiton to propel him through the water. He observed Kisame's fighting style with this new form. He seemed to be acting very much like he looked: a ravenous shark after its prey. He also noticed something else: that the water bubble was moving with Kisame. Kisame was the epicenter of the entire bubble at all times and seeing how fast he was moving it was clear to see that Tobirama wasn't getting out of the bubble until he had closed the shark's jaws for good.

Tobirama knew using his affinity for water while under water would be pointless and foolish. He knew what he had to do, but he had to get close in order to put the shark down. After dodging and knocking away another of the shark humanoid's assaults, Tobirama looks around. He notices the earth not to far from him and he makes a determined dive deeper into the water. He hit the dirt with Kisame right on his tail. The moment Tobirama hits the wet sand, he unleashes the full force of his chakra control. Creating an air bubble within the massive water bubble.

Kisame had been plummeting towards Tobirama in another attempt to kill the former Nidaime Hokage. However, soon he was only plummeting towards the sand, hard ground. He was stunned at Tobirama's display of power, despite continuously draining chakra from the Senju, the man was still able to use such an impressive technique. The shark tried to get up but soon realized a fatal flaw in his shark-like form; he had gills so out of the water he couldn't breath.

As Kisame tried to undo the fusion or make it back into the water, Tobirama nailed him with a sick sending him flying onto his back.

"It seems you became too much a fish to survive on land," Tobirama chuckled. "You truly are a fish-out-of-water now."

Tobirama knelt on Kisame's stomach preventing movement, "Do not worry, I will now end your suffering."

Using his powers as the Human Path, Tobirama pressed his hand on the shark's chest and relieved the Kiri missing-nin of his soul. With that, the water splashed down to earth briefly covering him before flowing away. Tobirama sighed, "Fool, you were so focused on what you already had set you didn't know what you needed to remove to survive."

Tobirama sighed and walked away. He only halted briefly after thinking back over the battle, "You are a fish-out-of-water. Dammit, that gaki is rubbing off on me."

Mito vs Sasori

The puppet of the Third Kazekage opened its jaw and a gray mist-like substance poured out. Mito recognized it easily; it was the Iron Sand technique used by the Third Kazekage when he was alive via Jiton. Due to Jiton, her katana would be useless. Quickly unsummoning the weapon, she traded it for two chakra rods which she knew would be resilient against the magnetism techniques. The iron sand quickly formed into projectiles that fired at Mito but she sped out of the way to avoid getting hit. She ran backwards seemingly trying to get away.

Sasori smirked, "You cannot escape."

He charged the Third Kazekage forward, readying several spears of iron sand read to strike his opponent. However, as the puppet kage was catching up to her about to strike, Mito suddenly halted and thrusted the two rods behind her stabbing the puppet through the torso.

Mito smirked back in response, "Arrogant fool, you should have kept your advantage."

The chakra rods began to do their work as they drained the chakra out of the puppet and deteriorated the chakra strings controlling it. Mito back-flipped over the puppet and kicked off of it to do a second one while also knocking the puppet down. Mito summoned for a nagata and twisted her body mid-back-flip in an attempt to strike Sasori.

The attack drove straight into Sasori's left shoulder. His only response was a smirk. Suddenly, something bursts from the red-haired puppeteers stomach. Mito's kunoichi instincts took over and she narrowly avoided the point blank attack. She gazed at what her opponent did and what she saw caused to her to blink. Coming out of Sasori's stomach was a cable with a stinger on the end of it. Sasori then performed a hand sign. A poof later and suddenly the Akatsuki robe was shredded with two poles coming out of his back each with five blades on them.

Sasori smirked, "My own body is the greatest demonstration of my art. It appears, Uzumaki Mito, your demonstration of the Asura Path is lack luster compared to me."

"So you made yourself into a puppet, huh?" Uzumaki Mito sighed, "Well, now at least I know why my attack didn't work."

Mito gazed over Sasori's puppet body once again before grinning slightly, "Your heart seems important. Guess I should destroy it."

"Like you even have a chance!"

Sasori charged in, his blades ready, Mito not even bothering to move. Sasori struck, however, the blades stopped mere inches from Mito. Sasori suddenly found himself unable to move. His eyes widened, "Wha-?"

Gazing back, Sasori's eyes widened in horror as he saw orange, ethereal chains originating from the sand. They were restraining him, preventing him from moving. Slowly, more chains traveled around his body, keeping him in place. Mito smirked, "Didn't I tell you that you should have kept your advantage?"

Sasori didn't have time to reply as Mito drove the nagata through Sasori's heart.

Minato vs. Deidara







Explosion after explosion Minato dodged. He wasn't given much time to react. The Iwa missing-nin was certainly proving his worth as an S-Ranked nin while also demonstrating the power of bakuton. The dragon itself was making it a tad difficult to approach him with ease and the barrage of explosive both large and small wasn't helping.

So, Minato did was an tactician would do: he scoped out for any weaknesses. He noticed that there was a bit of a pause between every few volleys of bombs. He assumed that had to do with getting more clay to cause explosions. He imagined he'd soon be running out. Right, now it appeared to be a battle of attrition: which would go out first? Minato's speed, openings for movement, and dodging ability or Deidara's arsenal.

"Won't matter in a second," Minato thought. The moment the most recent barrage ended, Minato super-charged his legs and jumped high into the air. The peak of the jump ended right next to Deidara who was about to use the dragon to attack him. Deidara smirked, "Game over, Hokage!"

Minato returned the smirked and vanished in a hiraishin. This startled Deidara as he quickly looked around before suddenly hearing two words from nearby.

"Banshō Ten'in."

Suddenly, Deidara found himself flying upwards off of the dragon he was riding. He looked towards where he was being propelled to only to be greeted by a fist as it shot him towards the ground. The dragon swooped to catch its master but large rasengan with four blades spinning around smashed into Deidara just as the dragon reached him.

"Fuuton: Rasenshuriken," was the last thing that Deidara heard before the rasengan exploded obliterating both Deidara and the dragon. Minato soon landed safely and smiled, "I've got to thank Naruto for helping me complete that damn technique."

Kushina vs Konan

The blue-haired kunoichi known as the Angel was currently fighting off two massive wolves with Rinnegan eyes and chakra rods in their body. Her paper techniques were handling the summons pretty well. However, this also bought time for Kushina to form her own strategy against the other kunoichi. The obvious response to paper was fire so she'd have to figure out how to utilize that without it backfiring against her. It was likely Konan had already dealt with this issue before so she'd be prepared.

She didn't have long to think as Konan quickly finished up to two summons. She was injured from the claws but no fatally so.

"Cowering behind your summons I see?" Konan taunted.

"Perhaps," Kushina shrugged. "But it appears to be working, dattebane."

Konan sneered and charged with a paper blade. Kushina quickly flashed through hand signs and shouted, "Kage Bunshin no Jutsu."

In a large plum of smoke, six Kushinas suddenly appeared. Konan took out the middle one with ease only for it to poof away. Konan very quickly became painful aware of the other five surrounding her. Utilizing her power, Konan created a barrier for paper only to have it suddenly ignite with fire. Quickly lowering the barrier to prevent the flames from burning her, she suddenly suffered several blows from the red-headed mob only to suddenly push them away with another blast of a paper flurry. The attack destroyed the other five clones. Konan was furious, "Where are you, coward?!"

All she ended up hearing as a reply was, "Fuin."

Suddenly, seals all over her body activated and Konan fell to the ground, unable to move. Konan was speechless. She felt so heavy.

"Wha. . . What is this?"

Kushina suddenly appeared and walked up to her, "Seals. Weight seals. My clones planted them on you with their strikes. And now you are immobilized."

Kushina then drew a katana to strike her. Konan closed her eyes to prepare for the inevitable.

It never came.

Konan's eyes opened to see Kushina shaking her head, "It appears my son still has use for you, Konan-san."

Hashirama vs Hidan and Kakuzu

Hashirama's eyes narrowed, "This technique. . ."

To the casual onlooker, Kakuzu's new form was fairly disturbing. Out of the stitches across the Taki missing-nin's body came numerous, gray tendrils waving unnaturally around his body. Out of his back came four creatures made from black tentacles utilizing the masks to survive. Clearly, this technique was meant to not just destroy but to severely intimidate, however, he was the Shodai Hokage. Hashirama wouldn't be intimated by this technique, especially not now that he was the Preta Path.

"Do you truly think you can match me now, Shodai Hokage?" Kakuzu smirked. "Now, perhaps I can complete that assassination mission I was banished for failing."

"Sorry for what happened but it's sadly not my problem but you think this little technique can truly defeat me? Try me, Kakuzu."

Suddenly, attacks of various elements shot at Hashirama which he absorbed immediately. Then he jumped backwards, barely avoiding an attack by Kakuzu as he charged at the former kage. The four creatures followed as well. Soon, Hashirama was on the defensive dodging the creatures and Kakuzu until he was surrounded. Kakuzu laughed as Hashirama prepared a jutsu.

"Die, Shodai!"

"Mokuton: Mokuryū no Jutsu."

With that, a massive dragon with a hooked nose made entirely of wood erupted from underneath Hashirama. he used the momentum from the dragon's emergence to shot himself out of the way of the five attackers. The Dragon quickly turned its attention to Kakuzu and his creations. Despite their best efforts, Kakuzu's heart monsters were easily felled by the wooden beast easily the size of one of the biju.

Kakuzu attempted to escape but was stopped by a flash of yellow. To his surprise, he wasn't face-to-face with the Yondaime coming to the Shodai's aid but the Shodai himself. Hashirama laughed at Kakuzu's expression, "What? Did you not think we'd share abilities while we were training? We're all on the same side you know?"

Kakuzu snapped out of his stupor and attempted to attack him only to suddenly be smashed into the floor and a rasenshuriken exploding upon him finally felling the supposed immortal.

"WHAT THE FUCK?! KAKUZU!" Hidan shouted only to look up and see Hashirama landing nearby. "Fuck! That was a clone?!"

Hashirama turned to the trapped immortally and smiled, "Yeah, good distraction, huh?"

Hashirama then got into a thinking pose as he tapped his foot, "Now, what the hell am I going to do with you?"

Hidan could only swallow nervously and pray to Jashin for at least some form of mercy as a creepy smile formed on Hashirama's face.

Hiruzen vs Itachi

The former Sandaime Hokage was smashing against the seemingly-impenetrable armor of Itachi's Susano'o with his staff. Despite the staff growing to an immense size it still seemed to have little effect against it.

Finally, after a barrage of attacks from Hiruzen, he finally ceases and pauses, "Quite a powerful technique you have there, Itachi. I'm impressed."

"And you, Hiruzen-sama," Itachi replied. "Your offense is very impressive. You certainly were deserving of the title Shinobi no Kami. You were very close to breaking through Susano'o. The cracks are numerous."

True to his word, Hiruzen began to pick up on the several cracks in Susano'o's armor.

"So I have been dealing more damage than I thought," Hiruzen thought before readying his staff again. It increased to an absolutely massive size and Hiruzen prepared to throw it straight at Itachi whose eyes narrowed, "You think this will finish the job on Susano'o, Hiruzen-sama? I thought you wiser."

Hiruzen threw the staff straight at Itachi, but to the Uchiha prodigy's surprise, it quickly shrank down to a tiny size going straight through Susano'o and through Itachi's right shoulder. The following force threw Itachi severely off balance only for Susano'o to be struck by the staff again, only this time it again was massive and Hiruzen was behind him. Susano'o shattered as Itachi impacted the floor from the blow. Itachi struggled to move as he attempted to look at the former, old kage.


"You shouldn't have told me your Susano'o was weakening, Itachi," Itachi blinked and looked up at Hiruzen. "I hadn't know it was weak yet. As for what I did, I simply used the force of my staff in an enlarged state traveling to crush your armor and put that force behind a tiny staff that could puncture your Susano'o. With the force behind it, I knew it would throw you off thus allowing a clone I had set up earlier in the fight to catch the staff and use it to land the finishing blow. Quite effective, am I not correct?"

Itachi smiled, "You truly are the Professor, Hokage-sama. Please, now, finish me off."

Hiruzen shooked his head as he smiled at Itachi showing him he had something else in mind.

. . . . . . . . . . . Wow. I can't believe how long it has been. I'm so sorry guys but really I'm sure you all know the reasons why I didn't update so there really isn't any point in saying anything regarding that. Nevertheless, yes, I'm back. . . for now at least, and I'll try to remain so for as long as I can. Also, my new story Kyuubi no Taiyo no Megami is also starting with this update so please support me with that one as well. Your support with that one will also help me gain the confidence to continue this one as well. I have a forum attached to my new story and there you can also give me ideas for this story to help me continue it faster and better. I really thank everyone for their support and please review!


Response to Reviews

{YamiChaos27} - It's interesting how Hiruzen's pitted against Itachi, seeing how he knows the truth about the massacre. I see that "Madara" is smart enough not to underestimate Naruto. I wonder how he expects his Moon's Eye Plan to go smoothly with the true reincarnation of the Rikudo Sennin in his way.

Answer: Read above for the first sentence. For second, sorry I've learned my lesson about spoilers :)

{rasEnshur1KEn} - I wonder what Tobi/Obito is planning with Orochimaru. Arrogant the snake may be, but he is not foolish enough to go into a fight without good reason most of the time.

Answer: Honestly, not so sure I'm going to have it as Obito in this one. Might actually keep it as Madara like in the older fanfictions regarding this subject but that is still undecided. As for the Moon Eye Plan, well, I'm waiting to see what people say on the forum.

{dbtiger63} - I don't know. In each fight I see the Akatsuki proving to be harder to defeat than I thought possible. It must be difficult to right many kage level battles happening simultaneously and still keep them interesting. When I consider how each of the members were killed, Naruto's Paths shouldn't have a hard time at all, each kage level plus. Naruto took out Kakuza without much experience, Hidan taken out by Shikamaru, Pein beaten by Naruto AND his Paths prior to mastering Kurama's chakra, Itachi loses to Sasuke(sick and remorseful though) but now against Hiruzen, Kisame handled by Gai. Konan is the only person defeated by kage level opponent in Obito. I don't believe the fights should be as close as they seem. Maybe not punk them since I do believe they are powerful but each Kage and their wives have their own kage level skills PLUS the power of their Path. My .0001 cents.

Answer: Yep, it is, especially when I totally wrote myself in a fricking corner. But I digress. Sorry, if it's not what you expected but I was honestly at a loss of what to do here which is why it took so long. Sorry the results are short but otherwise this wasn't ever going to come out. Again, I apologize and I assure you I will not try to give myself writer's block again, but no promises sadly.

{Mickyg Luvs Most Stuff} - Nooooooooooooooo! Jashin-damnit! It was getting to the best part. :( I can't wait for the next chapter anyways cause this is EPIC in my mind.

Answer: Ah, the evils of cliffhangers. Sorry if it's not what you expected but would you rather if it never came out at all?