The Hidden Plot of the Movie EC lovers
In the hidden plot we unravelers found on WB board, and have been uncovering since June of last year, more happened than what appeared. To know more, read on. But only if you wanted her with Erik. . .
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Angel of Mystery-145
[q]dear fren, thx. But suppose I don't have a credit card. What should I use to buy it? I can't use my parents' credit card number cause they'll kill me for sure.[/q] Hi again. :) Have you checked if there are any Barnes and Noble stores in your area?? They might have it...I know Wal Mart carries it online, so if there's a Wal Mart in your area, you could check there too...and if either of those places don't have it--they both do carry it online--so maybe you could ask one of the clerks if they can special order it for you??? Just some thoughts...
8/13/2006 #31
Agas Spenjahgra VII
Well, There aren't any of those shops around my town. I tried with the 2-disc DVD and they say it's out of circulation. My only hope is the online shops now.
8/13/2006 #32
Whisper of the Winds
If my opinion in this matters at all, I think these clues are just thigns being read into a bit too much. There are some versions of the story where Christine does love the Phantom and some where she really doesn't. I believe she may have loved him in the ALW version, but I also think she was too naive to understand her feelings for Erik and Erik's feelings for her and was frightened by this lack of understanding. I don't think she would have stayed with Erik. In the Kopit/Yeston version, however, I think she was honestly and truly torn between Erik and Philippe. (they replace Raoul with Philippe) In that version she really did love Erik, but in a different way. I do think, however, that if Erik lived she may have stayed with him. I don't think anything of the sort when it comes to the ALW version.
10/2/2006 #33
Angel of Mystery-145
Everyone's opinion matters, Whisper of the Winds. :) (love your screen name, btw!) I'm just showing what all we found for everyone to make up their own minds. I posted the end of the main movie the other day. All I need to do now are the black and white scenes. (yay!) Here's a taste of PONR & DOM: The subtitles to DOM in both French and Italian don't match the same words sung in AIAOY in English--though they are the same words to the AIOAY song--but they DO match Erik's in PONR. And regardless that a few of their words were different from what he and she sang--translations were EXACTLY the same. The proposal he sang to her in PONR--she is singing back the same vows of love to him. And her mouth is closed--just as it was in AOM, POTO, etc. Singing into his mind. But again, in AIAOY, those same words translated into completely different lines. In the hidden story, she had to go through an ordeal by fire--something they mentioned in English. ("Raoul don't make me do this ... Raoul it scares me, don't put me through this ordeal by fire.") An ordeal by fire in history was the testing of a noble or royal to determine guilt or innocence, and Raoul forced her into doing it. When Erik did take the stage, she sang in front of all present(in subtitles) that she was on Erik's side, and that she wanted nothing to do with the conspiracy but wanted him (in English too). The soldier raised his gun to shoot after Erik's mask was removed, (after he asked her to help him, to save him)--though she was in the direct line of fire--the soldier was on her side of stage. Another soldier had come on her side of stage earlier--not Erik's--to wait in the wings. She was now guilty too--the mob was after her--and Erik was trying to save her. In the subtitles this makes it so plain. He also sings at end of DOM: ERIK: Take her! Forget me; forget all of this Basta...andate! tu portala via! Enough…go! Take her away! Leave me alone Io resterò, lasciatemi qui I will stay, leave me here Forget all you’ve seen Forza, vi troveranno! Go on, they will discover you! From honey: the above two lines make it clear that he is telling her she’s in danger just as he is, but he has chosen to remain behind. Go now don’t let them find you Sono già quasi qui! They are almost here already! From honey: another clue that the mob mustn’t find her Just a taste. ;-) There really is too much to write here. As I said, the hidden story is a fantasy--and they make that clear in companion book. He's a king, she's his queen (already a part of him, since he is Music and he made her into that)--and she is in danger at the end, because she showed the people that she would not take part in their conspiracy against the king. It really is so cool. There's just too much there--in all areas--that work together to form a main theme. And everything fits. If it were all random--it wouldn't fit. But it does. Austin Shaw even admitted they put a lot of symoblism in the movie--and that certain props do have certain symbolisms. I feel they wouldn't have done some of the things they did, even graphically altered some things, and put so many clues in (hundreds) if not for a reason. But then, that's just me. :) Here's the link to all the scene summary links if anyone is interested: Once the summaries are all up, I'm going to make a thread with "clue groupings"--showing how many times and in what scenes each of the clues came up, and what they seemed to show from all that: Why we feel from the symbolism, (legend) they showed us to tell this hidden story that: "4" is Erik's number, "3" Phantom spirit's, "1" Christine's and "5" Erik and Christine's for example. Why Red is Erik's color and Green is Christine's. Why the gold eye seems to mean phantom spirit. Why the mask symbolizes phantom spirit. Why the ring means protection, light, and healing etc, etc, etc. Again, just putting it out there for everyone to read and see. Yes, it's detailed, but I learned early on that what one person might consider insignificant, another person thought extremely important and was the factor to them beginning to believe that there is a hidden story. It takes a lot of time and effort to be the captain of the group and research the clues, double check info, put the summaries together, etc., etc, etc. We've been at this since June of 2005--daily. But I'm not trying to win converts. I gain nothing from this--except one thing: Making people, who were formerly depressed with the ending--(even to the point that it was affecting their everyday lives)--happy. I love it when I receive posts that tell me what a difference finding the hidden story has made, how they are now excited about the movie and overjoyed that Erik was triumphant in all areas...how they can see everything I pointed out in their own movies, how they can see the thread woven to tell the hidden story through the symbolism, how they can see the hidden story as a whole--and now it all makes sense where some things didn't make sense before and confused them. (just a for instance: "Countess" on the gravestone when Raoul was called a vicomte at auction: that was a closeup--twice; that headstone was made in advance; that was not a mistake, and even says "Countess of Chagny" in the companion of the script and vicmote at the auction. {Per an interview, these POTO creators watched the movie in excess of 60 times during production to make sure everyting was right, etc}... Why the rose/ring suddenly appeared--and what that whole ending scene was about, when keeping in mind the clues they've shown us in main movie and what they stand for. But that's just one hole filled; there were many others. They write to tell me all holes have been filled for them (me too. :))--and how they are no longer depressed where before they felt let down and hopeless--especially concerning the ending--but they are now happy and satisfied, loving the movie more than ever. And THAT is what makes it all worthwhile. :) ~honey
10/2/2006 . Edited 10/2/2006 #34
Amzalot

Maybe I'm just not getting it, but this thing seems a little strange to me. In the novels and in the stage version of the musical, the ending is what it is. Christine leaves with Raoul. I thought it was clear in the movie as well that she did not choose to stay with the Phantom. I do like reading E/C stories so it's not that I'm against the pairing in any way, but outisde of fanfiction, I don't see how the story could end with Christine and Erik being together.

I think the fact that the Phantom allows Christine to leave makes the story so moving. It's what I love about it. If Christine goes back to the Phantom...well that can only happen in fanfiction, can it not? We never see her with the Phantom in the end, we only see her leaving with Raoul. The general public has maybe only seen the movie a couple of times so if you can only see this real hidden plot by watching the dvd over and over, well then it's going to go over people's heads. So if this E/C thing is the real plot of the movie (which would be a pretty big deal) then why is it hidden?

I do think it's cool that you found all this and it could almost make sense, but in the grand scheme of things...I just don't see it. Sorry, honeyphan. Maybe I'm missing something though. I mean other than the tiny details and symbols, as far as the actual plot goes, I don't come away with the impression that she stayed with the Phantom. And all the weeping women in the audience when I saw it didn't seem to think so either LOL

I do look forward to hearing from you though. I am curious.

-Shady Lady

6/15/2008 #35
Angel of Mystery-145

Hi Shady Lady-

I respect your opinion. :)

This is my opinion: I think that ALW & JS didn't blatantly come out with this idea because it does so derive from what has been canon, and it would have upset a lot of fans (especially of the stage show). It might have lost them money. But both men have made no secret that they thought Christine loved the Phantom (or Erik, though they never named him in their movie) through interviews, etc. JS even said that the main reason he agreed to write the screenplay was: "I always thought the sweeping drama and glamour of the piece would be very cinematic, but as a storyteller I really chose it because of the tragic romance between Christine and the Phantom."

also from Joel Schumacher: I came back to Andrew and said; I will do it, Andrew, if Christine is very young. She must be young, that’s the key to this story. And I wanted her relationship with Patrick Wilson’s character to be the awakening of romantic love for the first time and her relationship with Gerry Butler to be the awakening of a darker, more sexual, passionate, obsessional love.

This was the screenplay writer's attitude/idea toward it- so it makes sense that he (and ALW, who also fancied Christine with the Phantom/Erik) might do something like this. Put in heavy symbolism to suggest something else, a deeper story idea. "For the first time" concerning Raoul, also suggests that another time of love with someone else would follow... since he then mentions Erik, it looks like it will be him.)

Also, in many interviews when questions were posed, TPTB of POTO recommended to watch the movie, even watch it over and over to get the full flavor of it.

I wept too, Kleenex box after Kleenex box, lol- but only because I thought their love (Erik's and Christine's) was indeed tragic and that they never found each other again until death. From the start, I saw this as a love story between them- it is how it was written, the foundation of it, through how they laid out the scenes. Every scene in a romance is supposed to have the main characters involved somehow (man and woman), with the secondary characters either aiding them or trying to pull them apart.

In ALL scenes with her and Raoul, it was always about Erik, talking about him or her feelings regarding him in some way. It was never about just her and Raoul.

In ALL scenes with her and Erik- it was always about only them. No one else.

The hero and heroine of the romance- the true lovers- are shown somehow or talked about in every scene, to forward the story- their story.

That is the basic foundation all romance stories must follow, from what I learned in professional writing courses. And that is the pattern ALW & JS followed in this movie. There is much more that they wrote, and how they wrote it, to show Erik and Christine as the true romantic couple (based on what I learned in how to write romance) But I won't put it all here. If you want to know more, be sure and visit the hidden plot forum (what I called it for ease of typing, but to me, it's really a deeper story)

So from the start of watching this movie, I saw it as Erik & Christine - and Raoul as the other man. lol I had never seen the stage play, and felt (also by making Erik into a hot, handsome, sensual, passionate, artistic type - so different from the stage play youtube clips I've seen) that Erik was the true lead in this romance. They made him attractive for a reason.

When I did a scene summaries account of why Christine loved Erik on another forum (as some people asked me to do) showing it from the professional standpoint based on writing classes and books, of how they set up each scene to portray that idea, I began seeing things "off", began seeing symbolism, began understanding there was so much more involved. Thus, the hidden plot sleuthing began. lol

Some people have seen the clues but just discredit them as being mistakes and continuity errors. This was ALW's baby, and he said he was very pleased with how it turned out. Since he had such a bond to this movie, I don't think he'd let what amounts to thousands of "mistakes" pass the cutting room floor. I believe those mistakes were hints or clues and symbolism, with the purpose of telling a much deeper story.

I do respect your opinion, though. :) Thanks for responding!

8/19/2008 #36
Angel of Mystery-145

I apologize for how text went bold like that (in above post) - I have no idea what I did to make that happen. lol (Maybe when I copied and pasted from another site for the clips of the interviews?)

8/19/2008 #37
Morganvil225

I've been in love with Gerard Butler ever since I saw Phantom of the Opera right after it came out on dvd as well. My sister introduced me to it and, since then, has regreted it. Lol!

Click on my email and email me when you post the sequal to "Reflections of the Soul".

Thanks!!

Hillary/Erik's Dark Angel.

1/2/2009 #38
Truckingal

The Warner Bros. thread seems to have been pulled down. Is there anywhere else to access your research and findings? I read it all a few years back, but would love to revisit.

3/31/2009 #39
Truckingal

The Warner Bros. thread seems to have been pulled down. Is there anywhere else to access your research and findings? I read it all a few years back, but would love to revisit.

3/31/2009 #40
Angel of Mystery-145

Truckingal- Hi! Yes, go to phantomgerry.net I'm hoping the text shows here as the URL. If not, I'll edit.

We have found sooooo much more since that time on the WB boards and all of if fit together to emphasize and support one thing- Erik and Christine as a couple and King/Queen Music; a Phantom spirit messing things up for them and everyone else, and more...

Here's the URL- hoping it shows. Oh- wait- instead of doing that, click on my name here to go to my profile- then scroll down. I have the URL to the forum there! :) It's a site you have to join to post, but I asked the owner to make my hidden plot forum available to any visitors too, so you can read without signing up.

Erik's Other Lover- I'm not sure when I'll begin writing/posting Reflections of the Heart at this point. Right now my muse is taking me to finish Treasure, then start the third book and The Prelude (basically, the Hidden Plot in story form going along with the movie, but with some of my own scenes added too.) Also I have been working on Twilight Symphony (sequel to Phantom Christmas Carol) but I will try to remember to let you know when I start posting the sequel to Reflections. :) Thanks for your interest!

3/31/2009 #41
Angel of Mystery-145

Truckingal- Hi! Yes, go to phantomgerry.net I'm hoping the text shows here as the URL. If not, I'll edit.

We have found sooooo much more since that time on the WB boards and all of if fit together to emphasize and support one thing- Erik and Christine as a couple and King/Queen Music; a Phantom spirit messing things up for them and everyone else, and more...

Here's the URL- hoping it shows. Oh- wait- instead of doing that, click on my name here to go to my profile- then scroll down. I have the URL to the forum there! :) It's a site you have to join to post, but I asked the owner to make my hidden plot forum available to any visitors too, so you can read without signing up.

Erik's Other Lover- I'm not sure when I'll begin writing/posting Reflections of the Heart at this point. Right now my muse is taking me to finish Treasure, then start the third book and The Prelude (basically, the Hidden Plot in story form going along with the movie, but with some of my own scenes added too.) Also I have been working on Twilight Symphony (sequel to Phantom Christmas Carol) but I will try to remember to let you know when I start posting the sequel to Reflections. :) Thanks for your interest!

3/31/2009 #42
shadowchsr

Waves hello to Honeyphan.

I know this forum has been quiet for over a year so I hope you don't mind a brief posting here. I've been waiting for over a month to be allowed to post on Phantomgerry.net and I still haven't been approved. It makes it very frustrating when wanting to make a comment as I've been fascinated by the hidden plot since I came across it here. I've even asked the staff twice if something is wrong but got no response. Maybe the discussions in part can be rekindled here. if not, that's okay as well. I just wish I could be a part of the discussions.

9/30/2010 #43
LyonessaStark

In the original book, Phillippe, Raoul's older brother was the Comte, and Raoul the Vicomte. Phillippe was killed by the Phantom by drowning in the lake. Also, in the book, Raoul was accused of his brother's murder, and he and Christine ran away to Sweden, so he never took the title of Comte.

7/29/2019 . Edited 7/29/2019 #44
LyonessaStark

She does mouth the words "I Love You". She couldn't say them out loud, for fear the Phantom would kill Raoul. I have always shipped R/C.

7/29/2019 #45
Angel of Mystery-145

Hey- (gosh, I haven't visited this board in eons, since I'm now posing the full Hidden Plot on facebook, but I saw your post in my email so thought I'd click the link and respond) - Since you are an R/C fan, I'm not going to reply with anything contrary to what you wrote (don't want to take anything away from what you prefer when you think of Phantom), but I do want to say- I read the original Leroux version years ago and didn't remember that about Raoul being accused of murder and never becoming a Count. That is really interesting...thanks for sharing. :)

7/29/2019 #46
Igenlode Wordsmith
I read the original Leroux version years ago and didn't remember that about Raoul being accused of murder and never becoming a Count.

The bit about Raoul being accused of murder is in the introduction, where Leroux leads us all to believe that the story is going to be about "l'affaire Chagny"; the mysterious murder of Count Philippe and the disappearance of the Viscount his brother. (In fact, by the time he gets to the end of the novel, the Count's death is disposed of more or less as a parenthetical aside after the fact!) The letter from old "General D" talks about not wanting to believe that two loving brothers could have torn each other apart to the point of killing, and Monsieur Faure talks about the insanity of the Viscount and something terrible having happened between the brothers on Christine's account, so it's strongly implied that the public conclusion is that Raoul went mad and killed his older brother before fleeing the country. The afterward also talks about how awkward it would have been for Raoul and Christine to enjoy their happiness together in Paris society after the Count's unexplained death. It doesn't say anything about Raoul's not taking up the title of Count de Chagny, only that he and Christine went North and disappeared.

8/6/2020 #47
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