Kataang or Zutara?
This argument has come up a lot, what are your opinions about Kataang and Zutara? Which pairing is more likely? Do you think they're age differences really matter? Everyone's invited! Keep it respectful, though.
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Apolla Broadpath

Yeah, I completely agree. I mean, The way Zuko reacts towards Katara in each season basically shows how his character changing and it's so mega dramatic that it can fill up like anything. I mean, they understand each other completely. And they aren't actually complete opposites. Sure, Katara is all sweet and calm but Zuko can be sometimes, especially with her and they both have tempers and they're both talented benders! Like I said, they get each other and in "Southern Raiders" they wer completely together and she even taught him a lesson (really corny!). Plus Aang is fun to watch when he's annoyed!

1/8/2011 #391
Cadilus

Jackson is tied up with the Hobbit for the next 3 or 4 years. By that time the cast of kids would all be too old (not that I'm advocating the same cast...just for continuity's sake). Avatar worked beautifully as a show. I think it could have worked as a movie, but it had its chance and the chance was fumbled and dropped into a volcano.

I mean, they understand each other completely. And they aren't actually complete opposites.

Exactly. I don't understand where "opposites attract" comes into play where Zuko and Katara are concerned. The reason Southern Raiders makes any sense to me is BECAUSE they're so similar. Is it the fact that their elements destroy each other?

Though I'd expand on the "taught him a lesson" - if anything, I would say that it was Aang and Aang's influence working through Katara that taught Zuko the lesson.

1/8/2011 #392
TigerShadow

Is it the fact that their elements destroy each other?

Pretty much, yeah. The main basis for Zutara--as with Ron/Hermione--is "fighting = love." I am a Ron/Hermione shipper, but the shippers take the ship to this extreme where their belligerent sexual tension is taken up to eleven. similarly, many Zutara fanfictions have the two outright warring and this is to cover up their love. I'm fine with belligerent sexual tension, but I'm not fine with the extremes that it is often taken to.

1/8/2011 #393
ckrets

Though I'd expand on the "taught him a lesson" - if anything, I would say that it was Aang and Aang's influence working through Katara that taught Zuko the lesson.

This. TSR was meant to show IMO, how Zuko and Katara weren't right for each other. I loved this episode with the friendship!Zutara, but by how the two interacted with each other, I could tell they'd have a very fiery relationship. And it's the brightest flames that don't last the longest. (lol a little proverb thar...XDDD)

Aang was inside Katara the whole time. Zuko was pressuring Katara to take her revenge out on the man who killed her mother, but the Aang in her overtook the Zuko in her.

I loved the little Zuko and Katara hug at the end. Very cute and touching.

1/8/2011 #394
Nefertari Queen

Answering the original question, I think that Zutara is popular for several reasons.

If we analyze, Zutara is popular mainly among young people aged 13-19 who are fully in adolescence. Zutara is a relationship full of passion and also in a way forbidden What are looking for a boy of fifteen years, driven by their hormones? The vast majority look just that: a love full of passion and adrenaline, forbidden love and a cycle of hatred / romance. Same as of the novels.

The Kataang are under 13 or over 20, not all but most. Ie not only the passionate search. The former because they are innocent and the latter because, due to their experience, they realize that passion is not the only thing in a relationship. Of course there are exceptions, Kataangers Zutarians fifteen years and 30 years. But let's face it, most meet these crifras.

And it is true, Zutara to the n*** eye is more exciting because both people constantly collide, creating a competitive relationship very curious and interesting in some way. But they are not each other, that relationship will never end in anything good, yet again "A teenager waiting for a stable relationship, emotional stability and plans to marry her partner? More than 50% NO. And those are some of the qualities that have the Kataang.

Most young people in this century are those married couples as boring and stable, hence the Kataang them uncomfortable. But the relationship Aang / Katara can be particularly exciting if you know how to handle. It is a perfect match, as many think.

That's what I think.

2/26/2011 #395
chromeknickers

I read through all the 'debate' threads on here and was left shaking my head in disgust (and thinly veiled amusement). I had decided not to participate because hot air only feeds the fire, but it was Dante who had once written, "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis". Since I don't want to go to hell (*radiates sarcasm*), I thought I had better speak my peace on the matter.

Firstly, I don't think anyone should be so arrogant as to presume why someone likes something and pigeonhole that someone into a group or stereotype. Who cares why people like Zutara or Kataang or Maiko or Junroh for that matter (Iroh totally deserves some young hot tail). Secondly, arguing the facts or lack thereof of a fanon pairing (we all know fanon is not canon) is a pyrrhic victory: you're defeating yourself by taking up the cause (i.e. you look like King Pyrrhus shaking his fists at the heavens on the shores of Epirus). Thirdly, by placing those shippers into a demeaning category is using thead hominem fallacy at its worse. And, quite frankly, you'll come off as a wanker.

Zutara is not canon and it never will be. Does that mean that everyone must ship Kataang in order to avoid being categorised as "stupid, 15 year old girls who have no idea what a good relationship is and that they always go after what is hot"? It does? Well, let's add hasty generalisations to the list and, hey, let's throw in an Aunt Sally (straw man for you Yanks) for good measure because it's bound to surface eventually, nay?

Seriously I do not understand what the big flaming war is for. Let people ship what couples they want to and not ask them to validate their reasons. At the same time, there's no need to attack canon. Just be done with and let lie (or are you not finished beating that dead horse?) I love Aang, and I liked Kataang in the series, as well as the Zutara friendship, but write Zutara fan fiction. I don't care what the next person likes or thinks of my 'OTP' (gods, that is a horrid name) and I'm not going to begrudge anyone else of his or hers.

---

Edit: *curses ff.net gods for their wonky formatting*

7/13/2011 . Edited 7/13/2011 #396
Tofu is meat

To be perfectly honest, I didn't read all of the posts so someone else might have already said this [in fact, I would think someone did]. But, just to answer the original question, people [in my opinion] find it necessary to write/draw zutara because it never happened in the show. Kataang, however, did end up happening so fans are less motivated to write/draw them. This is why fanfiction has a larger difference between the number of works than da—naturally, motivation to write a canon ship is less than drawing a canon ship. A large number of people join fanfiction to make their dreams a reality and kataang shippers really have no need to do that because they could just as easily watch the show. It happened in the show, but Zutara didn't and I think writers enjoy the challenge of putting these two together.

Another possible reason's that, because zutara has a larger fanbase in these sites, the new/neutral people are immediately bought because they think that writing/drawing zutara will get them more viewers/reviews/watchers/favorites and whatnot. So many authors/artists might in fact be neutral in the 'war'.

I hope this all made sense? If not, my excuse is that it's 3:00 AM.

7/18/2011 #397
Mrs Pettyfer

I agree with that, Tofu eggs forevah, as a potential reason for why fanon can be more popular than canon regarding fanfiction. I've noticed this with other fandoms too, not just ATLA. Harry Potter has a lot of really popular fanon pairings in fanfiction. (Off the topic but the final movie was great and Alan Rickman was phenominal as Snape)

I'm working on a Zutara piece for Zutara Week over at DA right now, actually. Thought it'd be fun to do a movie poster with real people representing them, but not using Nicola or Dev. (Because honestly, neither of them look or act like the characters in my opinion) Man is it hard to find someone! I think I've found a decent Katara but Zuko is hard. *sigh*

7/18/2011 #398
Kentastic72

Well, I have spent minutes reading this forum, and have NO IDEA when this turned into a person-on-person fight. BUT, I think people want to believe that "opposites really DO attract" thing. It's easier to imagine that theory with, oh I don't know, your two FAVORITE characters from a BELOVED FANDOM who are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT and look SOMEWHAT CUTE together. Kataang makes more sense, but Zutara appeals to your inner-romance-lover.

Look at me, the teenage psychiatrist. Psycho-analyzing everything.

Plus, the whole, "I must defy the set outlines in everything" that people have. Defying the set-in-stone Kataang makes me smile.

Also, if a bunch of guys looked like Zuko, I would not be single at the moment. ;-)

Sorry about your poster, though.

8/5/2011 #399
Crow's Reach
Yeah, no. I'm 18 and I like Zutara because the pairing is different. Since they aren't together in the show it challenges fanfic authors to be more creative when putting them together in their stories. Plain and simple. No stupidity involved, although you push the limits. Lol Jk Jk
8/30/2011 #400
Crow's Reach
I prefer zutara because I think kataang is an ugly couple. I find zutara annoying sometimes too but it's cool to me because I can't think of another show that gave more hints and clues and impressions of one pairing and then just abruptly changed their minds and went with the other.
8/30/2011 #401
Cadilus

Okay, this is actually getting ridiculous. If you're going to post something confidently on a forum, check your facts.

From Avatarspiritmedia . net (which I posted very recently for this very reason)

RM: Okay...shipping.

ALL: (laughter)

RM: I have never seen shipping take on a life of its own as I have with the fans of Avatar. What do you think of all this?

BK: I think it's important to note one thing I have heard from the internet is that some fans have the idea we've put shipping into the show because they've asked for it...requested it. This is totally not the case. Mike and I like to do melodrama stuff and we wanted that in there. Not that it's all cheesy, but we wanted that from the get-go. Five years ago when we were developing this.

MDD: Yeah, Aang-Katara, that romance. Some stuff developed along the way, and we're glad some fans are more receptive to that element of the show, but it was in the DNA of the thing from the start.

This is from an interview from 2007 after Season 2 had been aired. I admit that the interview does prove me less than 100% right about something unrelated I've said recently.

Heza and I hope to begin a debate soon about how much affection Aang and Katara show to each other, as well as a separate debate about Zutara within the show. You're more than welcome to join, if you feel the urge to defend your position.

8/30/2011 . Edited 8/30/2011 #402
Kentastic72

While EVERYONE has good points, doesn't anyone watch the show for the fighting scenes and funny stuff? I kinda wanna let go of ships, just for a little while. Let us melt into Avatar-lover zen.

Or fight over ships, whichever is more fun.

8/30/2011 #403
Mind-Game-King

Water Tribe Boat FTW!

Fire Nation craft, BOO!

Fire Nation Airships, EVEN MORE BOOOOO!

...What? I thought we were fighting over ships.

8/30/2011 #404
Crow's Reach
I really have to agree with you. I think you're the first person whose explained the Zutara differences pretty well. Except I have to disagree with Kataang being cute. I just think they're so ugly together and quite laughable to be honest.
8/30/2011 #405
Crow's Reach
??? That interview means nothing. The show is over who cares who was paired and why? I thought the forum was meant to express why you prefer who with who not to take it seriously. This is fiction after all.
8/30/2011 #406
Mind-Game-King

Oi, you made your point. Hell, you posted for no other reason than to repeat what you just said. And it's an opinion, one which is not held by everyone and in fact can be quite annoying. I personally find Zutara downright despicable looking back, not as a fandom but as for the supposed romance developed in series. Not to mention I don't give a damn how steamy the romance between a water and fire bender might be, there is just way too much making a pairing between them downright evil.

The thread title is specifically, WHY IS ZUTARA SO POPULAR. Not WHY IS ZUTARA RIGHT/WRONG. There ya go.

But nobody gives a damn about my opinion any more than you, ProudOtaku. So drop it. Let's cut the Shipping Arms Race, and pray together that the rumors of Shamamalamasamakun making a sequel to that which must not be named, are false.

8/30/2011 . Edited 8/30/2011 #407
Crow's Reach
????? Soooooooooo random. I don't understand why people get so defensive over fictional characters. Such a shame.
8/30/2011 #408
Mind-Game-King

Oh, don't give me that crap. You're getting just as offensive over the same fictional characters, so don't play innoucent.

8/30/2011 #409
Crow's Reach
??? I'm sorry but who started cursing and mentioning my name? I'm not playing innocent, I'm stating my opinion. They're not real. It's that simple. I think you need a nap, you seem angry.
8/30/2011 #410
Mind-Game-King

Doesn't change my opinion, your opinion, or the facts how angry I am. I'm stating the facts.

This thread began for the purpose of examining what made the pairing of Katara and Zuko of Avatar: The Last Airbender a popular idea. Not declaring the canon couple of Katara and Aang ugly for no purpose other than expressing yourself.

If you're going to hide behind "They're not real," then don't go to a site dedicated to fans who love the story, or insult people who enjoy the romance between two characters over another two. Don't give me that hypocritical idiocy.

8/30/2011 #411
Crow's Reach
Oh! I'd completely forgotten that I'd called them an ugly pairing. Is that where this random anger is coming from? I'm not hiding I'm just not that interested in your argument because at the end of the day they're still made up people. This conversation won't change anything in my life and I simply refuse to be fazed by your or anyone else's statements. I do love the story and the romance, but unlike you, I don't take it seriously. I'm a Zutaran you're a kataanger whatever. You hate me, I don't care, you love the show a bit too much, I realize it's just fiction. Doesn't matter. With that I end this conversation, although I'm sure you're going to comment back. Good night, good morning, good evening, good afternoon, good bye. *zutara*
8/30/2011 #412
Mind-Game-King

Yeah, I am gonna put forth my final thought on this. Simply to point out that, if at the end of the day this doesn't matter, your comments of calling kataang ugly exist for no other reason than to p*** off other people. Yet that meant so much to you that you said it twice on the same page. Learn some common manners before you run your mouth off. If you don't take the fandom seriously, then you've got less than no excuse to p*** on any group, regardless of your opinion. So thank you for kindly leaving and not insulting kataang again, you already said it was pointless. Saves me grief.

8/30/2011 #413
chromeknickers

Calm yo t***, everyone!

The fact of the matter is that more often than not "shippers" are going to be stubborn mules kicking at the air drawing their own conclusions that they'll never back down from. It's unfortunate and, in some ways, ironic that there is this war going on for a show that painstakingly tried to show how war is wrong and harmful and benefits no one (except for profiteers, but that was never mentioned in AtLA). There's really no point in arguing someone's beliefs, right? Right. But there's no point in antagonising for the sake of it.

*massages bridge of nose*

I sincerely hope and pray that the AtLA shipping war does not cross over into LoK.

8/30/2011 #414
heza08

but it's cool to me because I can't think of another show that gave more hints and clues and impressions of one pairing and then just abruptly changed their minds and went with the other.

Actually, I agree with this... in part and on a different level. (And now Cadmos is going to demand I explain myself.)

It's not that I think Bryke purposefully threw in Zutara elements, set it up in the beginning, and the pulled a switcheroo on the fans. I do think, in their own minds and in the plans, they factored Kataang in the entire way. BUT...

Keep in mind that I was through S1, actually up to CoD before I figured out it absolutely wasn't going to happen, so I'm not just talking out my ear as a wishful-thinking Zutaran. There are a lot of elements in the show that pointed, on a symbolic level, to Zutara. Those things could have been there innocently, just part of the story that happened to mimic a set up, but they definitely were there and confused some viewers (*points to self*).

We--perhaps older fans, especially, who've been reading romance books and have seen a lot of movies with strong romance subplots--have sort of been conditioned to look for certain thing as cues for what couple we should be watching. Sometimes love starts out as friendship and moves seamlessly to romance, but often it's also shown as a fiery, antagonistic sort of relationship in the beginning (Leia and Han Solo, for example). Sometimes the relationship is just antagonistic, but sometimes it's also bitter enemies from opposing sides of a war (Jake Sully and Neytiri). To emphasize the antagonism, we're shown right out a lot of symbolism that juxtaposes the characters (the yin-yang everyone talks about here), as well as some plot points that seem to foreshadow an upcoming romance. I think there are a lot of places that, while the creators didn't intend to, inadvertently caused some viewers to expect that Zutara was going to happen. For those viewers, especially if they held onto those cues all the way to the end, all subsequent events were painted with a Zutaran brush and the resulting Kataang did seem random.

When I figured out Zutara wasn't actually in the works, I was disappointed but didn't freak out. I said, "Oh, right. Kid's show. I've been totally over thinking this," and I started reading fanfic.

I sincerely hope and pray that the AtLA shipping war doesnotcross over into LoK.

Yeah... good luck with that, considering it's probably going to draw a large portion of the same group of fans.

8/31/2011 . Edited 8/31/2011 #415
Cadilus

Actually, I agree with this... in part and on a different level. (And now Cadmos is going to demand I explain myself.)

And I don't think I disagree with it. If I were a Kataang shipper, yes, I'd demand. If I were a Zutara shipper...I can't say I'd always demand, but I'd expect the discussion to continue.

I apologize if you feel it's "demanding" - I'm simply requesting such explanations because I'd like to see all sides, but I'm not going to change my views based on a single post. I expect to be convinced. I want to weigh my views against others' and judge if my position is comfortably tenable or if it needs another look.

Whatever we choose to call it, I wasn't intending to in this thread because we can have a separate thread for this topic...but with all due respect, what exactly do you expect from an internet forum? This isn't Kataangforever, which for the most part caters toward Kataang love. Nor is it a Zutaran livejournal, which will consist almost entirely of one side. This is a shipping-neutral website, and as such there will be discussion between the ships rather than at one or the other. I set up a Kataang-only thread...and it faded. I set up a Zutara-only thread...and it faded. I set up a Fic discussion thread, a fic Recommendation thread -- even half a thread for Fic Advertisement, and who DOESN'T want to spread their fics? A spam thread, a Korra thread...a few months back, a thread about the chakras and whether Aang's Energybending had groundwork prior to Sozin's Comet. Another thread about...I think it was the gaps between the show and fanfiction and how you can bridge it. They don't last. I want them to, but they just don't. I may start an "ideas" thread in a ship-free zone just to avoid the arguments, but even that may fail (here's to hoping it doesn't).

The ONLY threads that get constant discussion are the ones with debate (and, yes, bashing). This forum, for whatever reason, is fueled almost purely by debate, and by newcomers throwing in their additions to restart an old discussion. Furthermore, there are any number of people (and I am certainly one of them) here who have very strong opinions about their own interpretations. If it were easy to change their/our minds, there would never have been a shipping war.

And I would be remiss in my duties if I didn't encourage the forum to stay lively :)

Long answer to a simple comment -- I don't want the misconception floating around. I'm not going to demand anything, per se, because there's no reason for anyone to pay attention to me if they don't want to unless it's intentionally offensive stuff that goes against the rules of the thread.

There are a lot of elements in the show that pointed, on a symbolic level, to Zutara. Those things could have been there innocently, just part of the story that happened to mimic a set up, but they definitely were there and confused some viewers (*points to self*).

*nods* Even if I didn't see them as such, I think it'd be foolish to claim that it wasn't viewable in that sense -- because, as empirical evidence would suggest, it obviously was. I see the argument of your following paragraph...and I never had a problem with people who saw things in the show. I simply want it to make sense in their fanfic writing...which we will get to in another thread.

I've also read enough and seen enough to look for the cues and to see them. Were Avatar more romance-based, and if Zuko and Katara had been given some more interaction early on, I would've seen some of that symbolism. But watching the entire series for the first time in five days with lightning raging outside (and a minor earthquake during Firebending Masters...talk about epic), I didn't have much time to consider anything, as much as I wish I had. I just watched. Most of my analysis came afterward. So there's the basis for my bias.

@Incognito: Korra will have its own shipping war. I sincerely hope she goes it alone so I can crackship to my heart's delight without any guilt (KorrAang, anyone?).

What I was responding to in this thread, Heza, was that Proud was stating that the show "abruptly changed its (sic) minds and went with the other", when it most certainly did not. Yes, from certain perspectives, perhaps it did. From the perspective of the show itself, what the writers wrote, no, I don't believe it did. That was all I was responding to.

EDIT: For that matter, ProudOtaku, Mind-Game-King, please cut it out. If it's productive, try it without insults. If it's not, take it to Private Messages or something.

8/31/2011 . Edited 8/31/2011 #416
Mrs Pettyfer

I actually have to agree with you heza, because I was the same way. Thank goodness I'm not alone! lol It's not "wishful thinking" because I didn't ship Zutara until AFTER I watched all three seasons and considered the ship. I didn't ship at all when I watched the show..too absorbed in the plot. :P

But I too, have seen many movies and read many books where now I subconsciously pick up cues. When I hear people say "but Katara and Zuko hated each other! They were on the opposite side of the war! They were enemies!" I could point out many pairings from movies/books where this has happened. It's really not an uncommon idea..it's really about as common as the whole best friends falling in love thing. This thinking doesn't mean Bryke did it on purpose, or that it was a true foreshadowing and "canon evidence," it simply means it's a reason why someone might think Zutara might happen.

Caused some viewers to expect that Zutara was going to happen

I'd even venture to say MANY viewers as Zutara is a pretty huge fandom. I might create a thread asking "why" they thought Zutara was going to happen out of curiosity.

8/31/2011 #417
Cadilus

I might create a thread asking "why" they thought Zutara was going to happen out of curiosity.

If you would like it kept free of anti-Zutara sentiment, I would be happy to assist you.

8/31/2011 #418
heza08

And I don't think I disagree with it. If I were a Kataang shipper, yes, I'd demand. If I were a Zutara shipper...I can't say I'd always demand, but I'd expect the discussion to continue.

I apologize if you feel it's "demanding"

Oops! It stripped out my winking smiley... or I forgot it or something. I honestly meant that part tongue in cheek because of the long discussion we had over at the other thread about Zutarans not backing up and explaining the things they say. I appreciate that you want debate, and that statement from me, taken as it was, probably looked awfully strange considering all the debate I've offered to participate in recently. I was ribbing you. My bad for not be clearer in my jokes. :D

ETA: As I look back at what I said, though, even jokingly, I realize how it might have looked to a newcomer who might not have read that thread, so thanks for calling me out on it. I absolutely would not want to spread the idea that you are harsh when you're actually one of the most reasonable people I've ever met online.

What I was responding to in this thread, Heza, was that Proud was stating that the show "abruptly changed its (sic) minds and went with the other", when it most certainly did not. Yes, from certain perspectives, perhaps it did. From the perspective of the show itself, what the writers wrote, no, I don't believe it did. That was all I was responding to.

Oh, I know. I wasn't responding to what you said about it as much as just pointing out an element of something I agreed with in a different part of the thread and saying that, if you tilt your head a certain way and squint your eyes, it can look like they changed their minds to some people who took the cues to their extreme.

I've also read enough and seen enough to look for the cues and to see them.

I want to make sure you don't think I don't think you're well read. I didn't mean to imply that at all. I assumed it was possible, given your tendency to not ship, that maybe we read different things (me possibly very chick lit and romance-centered... hence my tendency to read romance into everything by default), thus coloring whether we would perceive the same things to actually be cues.

8/31/2011 . Edited 8/31/2011 #419
Mrs Pettyfer

Heza, as I've already forced this on Cadmos and probably have already asked, have you read The Mortal Instruments by Cassandra Clare? :D

8/31/2011 . Edited 8/31/2011 #420
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