Kataang or Zutara?
This argument has come up a lot, what are your opinions about Kataang and Zutara? Which pairing is more likely? Do you think they're age differences really matter? Everyone's invited! Keep it respectful, though.
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Cadilus

Not to plug, but I wish you'd said all that before I wrote The Things They Wear. I would have added some things to my Zuko description :P

Haha. By the way thank you for reminding me, I came across that and meant to drop a review in. Thought it was quite lovely and a great symbolic look.

In an odd way, it reminds me a bit of Avatar (ironic!), where the head military guy says that he could get the scar on his face removed, but he chooses to leave it. Do you think, post-finale, Zuko would remove his scar if he were given the choice? Or is an important reminder to him of his own journey?

Irony indeed :) (Speaking of Stephen Lang, I recommend the new show coming out called Terra Nova...almost like Avatar in the past or something, and from what I hear much better written.)

I think that post-finale he would keep it, because it's a part of a whole rather than a badge of shame. Until mid-Season 3, he kept visiting Iroh, he kept sneaking around in his robe, he met with assassins in the night. He couldn't reconcile what he wanted himself to be with what he was. And of course nobody could accept HIM until he finally accepted himself (the fact that Mai does accept him both ways raises her a level in my estimation). When he accepted himself, he became the person he once was meant to be before his exile. He wasn't flawless (far from it), and he'd done great wrong...but he knew that. He accepted it and resolved to try to make himself better.

8/31/2011 . Edited 8/31/2011 #121
heza08

Thanks for the praise.

I also keep meaning to review Wolf's Head. It was very nicely written, and I always love things in Hakoda's POV.

(Speaking of Stephen Lang, I recommend the new show coming out called Terra Nova...almost like Avatar in the past or something, and from what I hear much better written.)

It is on my calendar! I think of all the new stuff coming out, that's what I'm looking forward to the most.

the fact that Mai does accept him both ways raises her a level in my estimation

The more we talk about it, the more and more I like Maiko.

8/31/2011 #122
ferbs55
MY reasons as a Zutara shipper and responses to the original. They're more or less the same: (I'm copying and pasting then adding my thoughts) 1. The whole opposites attract deal. It's not that they're really opposites. Their personalities are pretty damn similar when you look at them. They're stubborn, passionate in what they believe in, great benders, they have a tenderness to themselves but they're both hard a***... and clearly once they love someone, that love runs deep. (EX.: Katara and her family, Zuko and his mother and Uncle) Not personality wise, but they also have similar characteristics that have helped shaped who they are. Katara's dad is the chief, technically royalty, he's been involved in the war for years where they have not seen each other, she's trying to help save the world by helping Aang. Zuko's father is the ruler of his nation, and is the driving force behind the war, Zuko hadn't seen his father for going on four years, and he's trying to help HIS world (the Fire Nation) by finding Aang. (This, of course, changes to parallel Katara's mission eventually.) And the biggie, their mother's were taken by the Fire Nation. For those of you who scream, "NOT ZUKO'S!!!", remember this; she had disappeared after keeping her son alive, and speculation time and time again says she was banished by Ozai. What I believe to be the opposition are the obvious: he's a Firebender, she a Waterbender, he's Fire Nation, she's Water Tribe, they're fighting for different things, which even though that changes, they still are in the end (Zuko, for his homeland, Katara for what she has in the beginning), and in that time of war, just as in any time, whether it be war or a feud between families, there is a romanticism about two opposite forces finding love in each other, despite their difference in upbringing and beliefs. This is what I believe to be a big driving force behind this ship, and it is one of mine, personally. 2. The relationship seems more... scandilous, if you will. It's not that it's scandalous, per se... Well, it is. For example, if they were to start a relationship in the very beginning, how would that look the Aang and Sokka and, hell, Zuko's entire shipmates? Moving to the second season..., still with her brother and Aang, but with the addition of Toph, and for Zuko's side, Azula and Mai. And the third season, where Aang's feelings are finally blatantly shown (not that they weren't before...) if anyone were to find out, that would be a HUGE cluster eff for both of them. Even after the end of the war, there would probably be political issues (and benefits!) not to mention with Mai coming into the picture again. Not to mention with Katara's father and his friends... 3. Aang hasn't hit puberty yet. THAT'S a big one for me. Being 14 when the series ended, I always wondered... "Why would a mature girl like her be dating a bratty child younger than her?!" It makes no sense. A guy dating a younger girl would make sense, because of the maturity issues. Sorry, guys, but the truth is, a girl's mentality is a lot more mature than a guy's of the same age. So to go for a guy that's younger and whose voice just cracked does not seem logical. 4. It's a step beyond the whole "brave hero gets the girl" thing. But, Zuko is a hero in his own way. He's risen through a lot more crap in his life than Aang ever has, and even though Aang is the obvious hero of the show, Zuko is right up there with him. Let's compare: Aang: I've never met my biological parents and I don't care cause that's tradition, but my mentor, along with my race was exterminated because I was a petulant child who ran away instead of facing my problems." End result? "I'm still a child because I can't kill someone that has caused the deaths of upwards of millions of people, but I took away his bending and saved the world." Zuko: "Since the age of two, I've been berated, compared to my little sister, told I was inferior and have suffered from verbal, mental abuse from both my father and baby sister. My mother, the only person to have shown any love for me, may have been killed when I was ten because of me. At thirteen my father permanently disfigured my face and banished me from my home to a wild goose chase for objecting to sacrifice people who love their country. Since then, I have put up walls between myself and the world, felt nothing but anger, I've torn up my body and sent myself physically and mentally over the edge to be able to come home and try to get the love of someone who will never accept me." End result? He got an excellent hairdo, became the bender and man his father repeatedly said he never would be, fought and took back a country who has only looked down upon him, broke through his walls and regained his honor himself and became the ruler of his nation. He's not an obvious hero, but looking at a comparison, he is more of a hero than I would ever consider Aang to be. 5. Katara totally rejected Aang more than once. I wouldn't say rejected, but more shown time and time again more brotherly feelings than romantic feelings. Especially before the invasion and Ember Island when Aang said "Is it true, do you think of me as a brother?" and she doesn't deny it. 6. Zutara is more unexpected and exciting than Kataang. Kataang was obvious from the beginning. This is true. It's been expected since Aang opened his eyes up for the first time in decades and had the light surrounding Katara's face. That just makes it, "okay how long will THIS relationship take?" Boring. Zuko and Katara would be more of an exciting pairing just because of how much they have had to overcome both in life and with each other. It also goes back to the whole, "They're on opposite sides" thing, and it would not be expected for two people such as themselves to be together considering their pasts with each other. The progression that the show has with them not being able to stand each other, then opening up, then Katara hating him and Zuko feeling horribly, to them being friends is a much more exciting beginning to a relationship then "Ahhhhh a light is surrounding her!" It just has more of a flow and a balance to it, and with Zuko trying so hard to show Katara he had changed from what she remembers is a... symbol, almost, of what type of feelings they would have and what their relationship would be. 7. Zutara is more of a love/hate relationship, which makes it all the sweeter when they have moments. Not really love/hate. I don't really see either of them as ever really "hating" one another. The first season, it seems Katara was just someone in the way for Zuko and it annoyed him, thus her directly annoying him. The second season, there really wasn't too much interaction between the two of them, except in Ba Sing Se. That's where, I think was a turning point for the two, and where their "moments" began. But as a result of the events that took place there, Katara was in that hurt where it feels like hate. (DON'T DENY ITS EXISTENCE, WE'VE ALL GONE THROUGH IT BEFORE.) But eventually, they become friends. So it's more of "you annoy me." "You annoy me, too." "But I still love you. :)" "And I still love you, too" relationship. We all have them, whether with a best friend or boy/girlfriend. 8. Zuko tried so hard to get Katara to accept him. It's nice to think that he got something in return other than an innocent friendship. FOR. REAL. Honestly, the attempts that he went through, aka, leaving his home again, breaking into a prison to find her father, doing the chores, teaching Aang, and risking his life to find her mothers killer don't show some sort of feelings I don't know what does. (He seems like her cares more with all these than saying "Sorry" to Mai about a certain letter...) 9. Katara went out of her way to make fun of Zuko when he first joined them. If that's not classic young love, nothing is... Nah, I don't agree with this. She threatened him, and was a b***, yeah. But a. it was genuine bitchiness, not that flirty making fun of. b. I think she was still in that hating you but not actually HATING you/you hurt me and I'm pissed about it stage at that point. 10. They do look pretty dang hot together... TRUE!
11/12/2011 #123
Amira Elizabeth

4. It's a step beyond the whole "brave hero gets the girl" thing. But, Zuko is a hero in his own way. He's risen through a lot more crap in his life than Aang ever has, and even though Aang is the obvious hero of the show, Zuko is right up there with him. Let's compare: Aang: I've never met my biological parents and I don't care cause that's tradition, but my mentor, along with my race was exterminated because I was a petulant child who ran away instead of facing my problems." End result? "I'm still a child because I can't kill someone that has caused the deaths of upwards of millions of people, but I took away his bending and saved the world." Zuko: "Since the age of two, I've been berated, compared to my little sister, told I was inferior and have suffered from verbal, mental abuse from both my father and baby sister. My mother, the only person to have shown any love for me, may have been killed when I was ten because of me. At thirteen my father permanently disfigured my face and banished me from my home to a wild goose chase for objecting to sacrifice people who love their country. Since then, I have put up walls between myself and the world, felt nothing but anger, I've torn up my body and sent myself physically and mentally over the edge to be able to come home and try to get the love of someone who will never accept me." End result? He got an excellent hairdo, became the bender and man his father repeatedly said he never would be, fought and took back a country who has only looked down upon him, broke through his walls and regained his honor himself and became the ruler of his nation. He's not an obvious hero, but looking at a comparison, he is more of a hero than I would ever consider Aang to be.

Okay...REALLY? I mean REALLY? Zuko verbally abused his uncle on more than one occasion, he behaved like a brat anytime he didn't understand something or someone didn't do something he wanted, and resorted to mocking people. He mocked Aang's beliefs of forgiveness when only 2 episodes prior he was seeking forgiveness from that same boy and he in the end gets Katara's forgiveness and his uncle's. Iroh sacrificed a lot for Zuko and Zuko often treated him like dirt. Yeah, a real hero there. Aang, while having his own faults, saved Zuko's butt on more than one occasion, was willing to be friends with him, sacrificed his own safety for a tribe of people who had just hours before thrown him out (Episode 2), accepted his role as Avatar, etc.

This is precisely why the fandom has made me loathe Zuko. They feel the need to fault Aang for any human mistake (and understandable human mistakes at that) to the point he is stripped of his hero status, yet the conveniently turn Zuko into this can-do-no-wrong innocent that has been so put upon by his tragic circumstances and he is so brave and perfect that he practically shoots rainbows out of his butt and flies like Santa Claus bringing joy to the world!

Half of what you described about Zuko is not admirable - "tore up his body mentally and physically to get home to someone who will never accept me" - sorry, but that isn't admirable. Considering he mistreated Iroh during that time and hunted a 12 year old boy who would have been tortured to within an inch of his life if Zuko had brought him back to the Fire Nation - not terribly admirable or heroic. And Zuko made his own decision to be miserable and hunt the Avatar in the quest for his father's affection. Once banished, he is responsible for every choice he made. He chose to be miserable. He chose to mistreat Iroh and betray him. He chose to hunt the Avatar. He chose to become the Blue Spirit. You cannot hold it against Aang that Zuko made the choices he did. Because while Aang did make the choice to leave his people all those years ago and he has since tried to atone for it, Aang has also made the choice to not take his bad decisions out on others. The fire nation needed to be stopped, or more accurately the fire lord, but Aang rarely if at all took out his feelings over the loss of his people on members of the fire nation. If anything, Aang beat himself up for his actions.

And for the record, the monks were wrong to treat Aang like that. He had spent his childhood happy and loved and then all of a sudden, he is no longer a person - he is this thing that has to solve the problem of war. I don't blame him for running away. And one thing Avatar as a show has never shied away from is making it clear that the Avatar is NOT some thing, but a person with feelings and who makes mistakes.

8. Zuko tried so hard to get Katara to accept him. It's nice to think that he got something in return other than an innocent friendship. FOR. REAL. Honestly, the attempts that he went through, aka, leaving his home again, breaking into a prison to find her father, doing the chores, teaching Aang, and risking his life to find her mothers killer don't show some sort of feelings I don't know what does. (He seems like her cares more with all these than saying "Sorry" to Mai about a certain letter...)

Again...REALLY? I mean REALLY? He didn't do any of that to "win" Katara. He did those things because he had finally pulled his head out of his arse. But he should "get" her anyway. Thus turning her into a prize. Yup. Because just being friends with the girl whose best friend Zuko helped to nearly kill isn't enough. She should reward him with her love. I think I just threw up a little.

3. Aang hasn't hit puberty yet. THAT'S a big one for me. Being 14 when the series ended, I always wondered... "Why would a mature girl like her be dating a bratty child younger than her?!" It makes no sense. A guy dating a younger girl would make sense, because of the maturity issues. Sorry, guys, but the truth is, a girl's mentality is a lot more mature than a guy's of the same age. So to go for a guy that's younger and whose voice just cracked does not seem logical.

Riiiiiight, because Zuko and Katara are the paragons of romantic maturity. Sixteen year old Zuko didn't even notice girls until late in season 2 (12 year old Aang was far more interested in girls and romance than he was) and even then his interactions were awkward and katara had a crush on Jet and then didn't even look at another boy in any romantic capacity except for Aang the rest of the series. So exactly how are they so far above Aang? And given his behavior, Zuko fits "bratty child" more than Aang does. This whole post of yours leads me to wonder if you even watched the show in any capacity other than to drool over Zuko.

11/12/2011 . Edited 11/12/2011 #124
Odekake

Oh, boy ...

For the record, topics like these are the reason I cannot take Zutara and a good portion of Zutara fangirls seriously. What so many of the people who make these topics don't seem to understand is that the reasons they state are not the signs of a good relationship. You're allowed to like what you like, for whatever reason you like, but when you post these things on the Internet for people to read, other people who disagree with you are going to come in and try to tear your points down. Especially if you're trying to pass said relationship as a healthy one. You can like Zutara for these shallow reasons, fine by me, but don't try to push it onto the rest of us, don't try to pass Zutara off as a good relationship, and know that people are going to argue against your reasons.

I really hate it when people use reasons such as "they are opposites" or "Aang is twelve" or "they look good together" as "good" reasons to like a ship. Opposites don't always attract. It depends on the specific personality of the people involved. Sometimes people who are similar attract and make a good couple, but sometimes people who are too similar who attempt a relationship might end up killing each other. The thing is, Zuko and Katara are not opposites in personality. He bends fire, she bends water. He is male, she is female. That is where opposites in personality end. They are both hotheaded, temperamental, emotional, and have a tendency to lash out when angry. Neither of them want to back down. These characteristics combined will make for a terrible relationship. It won't make them stronger, because neither would want to admit that they're wrong. It'll just make things contentious between them.

Aang is twelve, perhaps thirteen by the end of the series. So what? You can't judge AtLA by the standards of our time and place. Maybe we think that a twelve year old and a fourteen year old getting together is disgusting. But a little more than a century ago, that wasn't so unusual. People married early, and young girls married older men. Heck, it's not so unusual for certain parts of this world, even today, to marry girls as young as Aang to men who are old enough to be their grandfathers! The point is, you can't dismiss Kataang simply on the basis that Aang is twelve. This is not Earth! This is not the Western world! We can't judge a couple based on our standards. Instead, we have to base it on the standards of THEIR world.

"They look good together" is a horrible reason to ship anything. You have to get to know a person and accept them for who they are for a relationship to work. I don't even need to go into detail on this one. If you pick a boyfriend or girlfriend simply because you think s/he is hot, then I am almost certain that said relationship is doomed. It is shallow to judge on looks, and the sooner people realize that the sooner we'll stop having so many failed relationships.

Also, I am sick of people saying that Zuko is mature simply because "he was banished" or "he lost his honor" or "he grew up with his father" and all that stuff. Those things alone DO NOT make a person mature! It is how they deal with the hand fate has given them that makes a person mature or not. And let me tell you, Zuko reacted horribly. He threw temper tantrums and hunted a twelve-year-old boy simply because he wanted to (re)gain his father's favor. He cared not for whatever or whoever that stood in his way. He was horrible to his uncle, who honestly didn't need to follow him but accompanied him because he cared. He changed, yes, but Zuko is still hardly mature, until perhaps the very last episode. We saw in TSR that he was willing to encourage Katara's bloodthirsty behavior to gain her favor. That's not what I'd call mature, since he had to have known that killing out of revenge is wrong.

Not to mention that a lot of you Zutarians don't seem to consider that Aang went through just as much as Zuko, if not more, and he deserves a happy ending too. You seem to act as if it's a horrible tragedy that Zuko didn't get Katara. Yes, you're right, it's such a horrible tragedy. It's not like he didn't get his throne, his honor, his father and sister in jail, his uncle's love, the girl he truly loves, actual friends, perhaps the whereabouts of his mother, at the end of the cartoon, right? Oh, wait ...

In a way, what Zuko lost was reclaimable. His throne and honor weren't lost forever. His father's approval was never worth having. He redeemed himself and reclaimed that what he had lost, and gained so much more. Aang, on the other hand, lost his entire people, his culture, 100 years wasted being frozen in an iceberg. He can never have Monk Gyatso and the other air nomads back. Not the ones who he grew up with and knew. He struggled to become the Avatar, the savior of the world that he was meant to be, and he succeeded while keeping true to his beliefs. Is it so much to ask for to let Aang and Katara have their happy ending? Is it necessary to tear Katara away from the guy SHE CHOSE HERSELF and stick her with a guy WHO ALREADY CHOSE SOMEONE ELSE? The real Katara and Zuko clearly don't want to be together.

I have nothing against Zutarians liking Zutara, make no mistake of that. What I do have a problem with is when they give us a list of silly and shallow reasons to support their ship and expect us to accept it, like "oh, you're right, these are the signs of a healthy relationship and we should totally not react to you putting down Aang". If you enjoy Zutara, just give your reason for liking it as, "I like Zutara because it's different" and leave it at that. No need to hate on Aang or make unfortunate implications on how real relationships work.

You know a "good" reason to liking Zutara? You could say something like, "Zutara as a ship would demonstrate the ultimate power of human forgiveness and strength," which in itself is pushing it because it requires people who actually know how relationships and the psychological mind work to suspend disbelief quite a bit. But even then, it's a much better reason than simply, "They look good."

11/12/2011 #125
Crow's Reach
I don't really want to take part in this dried out debate/argument but I thought this needed to be said; Korean Boron, very respectable opinion.....but, I just don't see how you can say Zutarans can like whatever they like for whatever reason you like, then turn around and say those reasons are shallow or not good enough, as if there are standards set for having an opinion or simply enjoying a ship for the sake of its diffeence from Kataang. Like there are "bad" reasons for putting fictional characters together. Now, I don't want to start a war with you, but I thought that was a bit.....idk, not fair? Especially when you consider the fact that those same "shallow" reasons for liking Zutara are often reworded and listed as reasons for liking Kataang. ie: "They look good together" "Aang liked her from the start" "They go well together." "Water and Air work well together" "Aang was the main character." Also, what makes you think every fan of Zutara is female? Nearly everything you said in that last post can be fired right back at Kataangers. When you think about it, there really isnt much difference between the fans of either ship, they both think their ship is the All Mighty of ships and the reasons for liking the other couple are wrong.
11/12/2011 #126
Odekake

I never said that there aren't shallow reasons to liking Kataang. There are people who like Kataang for rather shallow reasons as well, but this thread is called "The Zutarian Appeal" and no one else brought it before you did, so I didn't feel the need to go into much detail.

As for my saying that Zutarians are allowed to like whatever they want for whatever reason and saying that they're still shallow, I don't feel as if it's contradictory. You have the right to like whatever you want for whatever reason you want, but I have the right to see said reason as shallow if I feel it is such. Perhaps it doesn't seem fair, and I'm not trying to start a war with you either, but from what I've read up on these boards (and I've done a lot of reading even if I've only started posting recently) it seems to me as if on this specific forum at least Zutarians are the more likely to give shallow reasons than the Kataangers. I'm not saying that this is completely the case. There are very articulate Zutarians and very ridiculous Kataangers in the world. I'm just saying that from what I've seen on this one specific forum, it seems as if more Zutarians give shallow reasons than Kataangers.To give an example, if I said that I hated Zuko simply because his scar scares me, it is my right to feel that way but it is still shallow nonetheless and nothing I argue will change that.

I don't have a problem with Zutarians simply stating their opinion, but it bothers me when they feel the need to bring Aang down with their opinion, and the few who try to push their opinions onto everyone else. I have no reasons with someone telling me that they like Zutara. But when they try to give me poorly constructed reasons as why the pairing is a "good" one, I'll have problems. You can give those reasons as to why you like the ship, but if you try to give those reasons as to why it is "good," then not everyone's going to agree. Zutara doesn't seem like a healthy relationship to me. In fact, it reminds me of the relationship between one of my friends in undergraduate school and her then-boyfriend, after they started showing their true colors. They fought and argued all the time after they were past the initial stage of dating, and they're no longer together.

You're also right when you say not every Zutara fan is female. However, I believe that at least a majority of them may be female, at least the ones who are the most vocal. And I think that a majority of vocal Kataangers are female as well. I think that in general, guys aren't nearly as bothered by shipping. Oh, there are some who really do care about shipping, but as a whole I think men just aren't as concerned as women are.

You're right, though, when you say that fans of any ship will tend to believe that their ship is right and the others are not. I think that some specific people are a bit more tolerant of and not as virulent towards rival ships. Because unless you're talking about an absolute crack pairing between characters who never interact or a relationship that is clearly meant to be a doomed one, almost all ships have some merit to them.

11/12/2011 #127
GothGeek89

I've seen too many "Zutara's" in other fandoms to know exactly what the appeal is for most fans: Most fangirls see themselves in Katara and see Aang as "too young" to date since he hasn't hit puberty yet; so they go for the next guy in line: there was Jet, but he screwed up and eventually died. Next, we have Zuko despite their status then as enemies and his eventual love interest in Mai, who many fangirls found too "goth/emo/boring/ugly" for their precious Zuko and he felt needed a magical girlfriend who could "save" him(Katara).

There's also the overall bad boy/good girl fantasy that they seem to have that appeals to many especially after all the Twilight hype(a series that I hate). I admit, I used to be a sucker for it until I grew up and realized that it's a diaster in real life with only an extremely small percentage of actually working out. What's ironic about all that is that Zuko isn't a bad boy; he just seems that way compared to Aang and Sokka. Jet was the series' bad boy until he died. Once he let go of all that anger at his past and saw his family/country for what it really was, Zuko is a down right dork(and I say this in a nice way. I'm a little dorky myself. Besides, dorks can be very sexy. Mai is a lucky girl.)

Before anyone starts, I'm just talking about the majority of fans. I know that there are fans who really do see the potential in Zuko/Katara. Over half of my OTPs are ones that are purely fanon that I know will never become canon, but I see the potential there so strong that they have, in a twisted way, become my canon.

11/13/2011 #128
Odekake

Agreed. I honestly think that if Avatar hadn't ended the way it had, if there were at least one more season after the finale, then Zutara wouldn't be so hard for me to believe. There is potential that could've been explored had the series continued. But it didn't. The way AtLA ended, I cannot see it becoming Zutara without a lot of OOC-ness or character twisting. And unless it's done for the sake of humor or for a crack fic, I cannot stand blatant OOC-ness. Also ... a lot of the shallow reasons people give for liking a ship worry me. I wouldn't give a flying banana about these kind of things if it didn't worry me. The reasons why some fangirls/fanboys seem to ship Zutara would make for unhealthy relationships in real life or at least not a long-lasting one. It's one thing to like a fictional ship for those reasons; it's another to delude yourself into thinking that it's healthy. I don't like Twilight because it takes an obviously unhealthy and somewhat abusive relationship and portrays it as romantic. It's not romantic, and Bella is a horrible protagonist. But it's being portrayed as a good thing! That's what I don't like about Twilight. It's misleading young impressionable and easily deluded preteens and teenagers, making them believe that this twisted relationship is good. It's not.

I mean, there's a fic on the second or third page of the Avatar section, where Zuko captures Katara during the Waterbending Scroll episode and takes her with him, pretty much abuses her, and makes Katara fall in love with him! I checked the reviews. Unfortunately, a significant number of reviewers are PRAISING the author, and the few who try to say that "no, this is not healthy and this is not romantic" are shot down by the author saying that if you truly loved a person you'd stick by them no matter what. Seriously? W**? I am considering finding that fic myself and giving that author a thorough tongue-lashing on why abusive relationships are not romantic.

11/13/2011 #129
Marius Prime

KBPS: I agree that it requires OOC behavior to pair Katara and Zuko. I disagree that it could have changed if there had been more time, because developing them in that direction would have been OOC. All the rest, yes, definitely. One thing I would add, though, is that some of the relationships you describe aren't just unhealthy. They're flat-out unbelievable. Like the fanfic you mention where Zuko abuses Katara and they fall in love. The author says she sticks my him because she loves him, but why would she love him in the first place in order to feel compelled to do that? Similarly, Bella, the inverted Sue, is completely lacking in positive qualities, and there's no reason why anyone should ever find her appealing. So why are supernatural predators willing to fight to the death over her?

11/13/2011 #130
Odekake

Well, I suppose you're right about that, in which developing Katara and Zuko to make Zutara work would be a bit OOC, since the finale ended in Kataang and Maiko. But I'm not a writer for Zutara, if any Zutara fans want to go in that direction though that's their prerogative.

Anyway, did you actually find the story where Zuko is abusive to Katara? The only reason I haven't typed up a long review to that person yet is because ... I am in sheer disbelief by some of the things that person had to say to defend the abusive Zutara route. What I really wanted to tell that person was, "Fine, then you go start a relationship like that and see how you like it," but it wouldn't have really got my point across because the person would get angry. And I actually was unable to even finish the first Twilight book, that's how much I hated Bella. She ... really doesn't do anything. All she seems to do is complain. From what I've surmised, Edward only likes her because of her smell and because he can't read her mind. ... Okay, so it's not implausible to say that Edward's interested in her for those two reasons, but being interested in someone initially for whatever reason and falling madly in love with them is not the same thing. I completely agree with you when you say some of these relationships are just unbelievable.

I think that's what bothers me. A lot of the relationships that a majority of teenage girls like (I say girls, because the majority of boys don't seem to care nearly as much about romance stories) "squee" over are unhealthy at their core, and simply reek of inexperience. It's all right to like Twilight and Zutara, it's all right to have it as a guilty pleasure. But I worry when people start buying into the message that stuff like Twilight is selling.

11/14/2011 #131
Crow's Reach

I can agree and disagree with what's been posted recently. I do think that its the bad boy thing going on that makes Zutara appealing, however, as far as some Zutara fans seeing themselves as Katara? I think thats pushing it, maybe? I mean for that matter the same thing can be said about Kataang fans.

Maybe they see themselves as Katara and Aang as Mr. Right.

Or maybe for Sokka and Suki fans, girls see themselves as Suki and Sokka is the funny guy that everyone loves.

and for Maiko fans, the girl is Mai and Zuko is the (at times) over protective but caring boyfriend.

It all makes sense.

But I dont think these relationships (Zutara, Twilight etc) are unhealthy. Maybe I'm a little off or maybe because I see them as strictly fictional. I just don't understand why some, not all, people even bother to take the characters out of fiction and compare them to reality, that just brings up useless points. How can anyone argue that Zutara or Kataang or any pairing is unappealing because they wouldnt work out in reality? Not saying anyone is doing that, I'm just on a little rant here. Seriously, OF COURSE the relationships are going to be seen as unhealthy and unrealistic because they are just that. Unreal and unnatural. They are made up.

But I must be fair and play devils advocate here. Since the characters are purely fictional and made up then taking them out of context and pairing them with one another is also quite foolish.......but also creative.

But then, nearly the same thing can be said about every other couple in every other cartoon/anime. Seriously? Boy gets found in middle of nowhere and after many death defying events him and female companion fall in love? What Aang and Katara have is not love, its a simple case of the Schatcher-Singer syndrome. Whenever someone and a close companion are put in a situation in which great fear and/or other emotions are present those feelings are often confused with affection. Thus Kataang was born. But then I can't exactly argue that because I'm doing just what I criticized, taking Kataang and comparing their relationship with reality.

I think the problem in the Kataang/Zutara debate is that we are arguing over the wrong question. It's not which is better? Or who works better together?

It should simply be; Which couple do you individually find attractive. because neither Zutara nor Kataang is better than the other. to me they are both good couples, equal in love and strength. Do I have a preference? Of course, but does being a Zutaran make Kataang a stupid couple? No and vice versa. We shouldnt see others listing reasons why they like Kataang or Zutara and lie in wait to tear their opinions apart. That makes forums unenjoyable. Not saying I'm not guilty of this, really, I havent set foot in a Kataang forum because I dont care why they like the couple its their choice and bashing them over it won't change their minds.

But as far as OOC goes, I think it's possible to keep Zuko in character in order to put him and Katara together or vice versa. After all, he is caring and affectionate just because he wasnt affectionate towards Katara in the show doesnt mean he has to be OOC for it to happen. But that's just me. Honestly, I like it when characters are OOC, it makes the fic less predictable and less related to ATLA. which sounds wierd I know, why read an ATLA fic if its not even ATLA related? I can't say, but I do enjoy it. I love it when Aang is rather brash and hotheaded and Zuko is the wimpy emotional character. Not saying Aang is wimpy. For me its quite enjoyable to see an author take such an important and popular character as Zuko, make him OOC and still have the fic work out ok. That's creativity at its best. In my opinon.

11/14/2011 #132
Odekake

There is OOC, but there is also maliciously warping a character's established personality to make them a "thing" that the good guy protagonist has to save his beloved from. And I think at the end of the day, that's what a lot of people hate. Even people who absolutely hate Aang for whatever reason can't reasonably deny that he has many good qualities about him. It is a fact that Aang has numerous good qualities. But what I hate is when people take away every little good quality that Aang has, make him some unlovable j*** to the point where you wonder how this was the protagonist of the original cartoon, all for the same of making his rival for Katara's affections (usually in this case Zuko) look better. And unfortunately, a lot of people are guilty of such twisting of characters' personalities, not only in AtLA but in all fandoms that have a significant shipping war.

When I say relationships like Zutara and the ones in Twilight are unhealthy, I think what I mean is that the message they give across is unhealthy. I'm not going to harp on Zutara, since there are plenty of other people to do that. But Twilight essentially tells young women that you should throw away your family, your future, your friends, your ambitions ... everything, just to be with the guy you are in "true love" with; that you should mope and cry for months upon end because your "true love" left you; that when he keeps you from seeing your friends, breaks your stuff, and watches you when your sleep that it's all right if he's the guy you're in "true love" with. Twilight isn't unhealthy for people who know that it's just fiction and don't buy into that message. It's not unhealthy for people who read it as a guilty pleasure and can make fun of its weak points. It's unhealthy when it gives impressionable preteens and teenagers the idea that they need an "Edward", that Edward is the absolute most perfect guy in the world and that he can do no wrong, that the relationship portrayed in Twilight is "loving" and "romantic".

Also, a lot of people nowadays are in love with drama, there is nothing wrong with that. But I think that some people forget that lack of drama doesn't necessarily equal a "boring, predictable" couple and relationship. Neither does a "dramatic, passionate" couple and relationship always mean it's better or more equal for the participants. Dramatics and passion can go one of two ways: it can either make the couple stronger, or it could tear them apart. So when people say they like a certain pairing simply because of the drama involved and the fiery temperaments of both characters, I can't agree with that simple reason alone.

Perhaps I do try to see fictional couples in lieu of how they would be like in real life, but I've seen relationships break apart and former friends go antagonistic because of various factors that some people think makes a relationship more interesting. So I'm a bit touchy on that subject. I was especially annoyed when two of my friends in first year of undergraduate college broke up halfway during our second year, because it splintered our "group" into two camps: his side and her side. Another two friends during that same year got together and, once they showed each other their true colors, fought all the time. It didn't work out. So I don't see "bickering like a married couple" or even just "they fight all the time, they must harbor feelings for one another" as a good reason. The point is, people who have seen these types of relationships will tend to automatically compare fictional relationships that are similar to such relationships they've seen in real life, because they have a reference point and they have an idea of what might happen.

11/14/2011 #133
Marius Prime

PO, you're way off-base. When you're writing about people, you have to make sure they behave as people behave. That's why you MUST compare fiction to reality. If you just have people acting in bizarre ways in order to result in your desired outcome, then you're destroying immersion in the story. It's one of the most common flaws writers have, not being able to write people believably. If you don't see the characters as people who act as people do, you're not engaged with the story, because stories are about people. Having them act in strange, nonsensical ways is not creativity.

Your fondness for OOC fanfiction is weird. Go read original stories. They have the traits you're looking for. OOC fanfiction is horrid writing, plain and simple. Pretty much all of your post stems from an ignorance of the principles of writing and good fiction. Good fanfiction takes the characters as they're presented and puts them in new situations, ideally related to the themes of the source material in some way (sometimes tangentially, sure), and has the story unfold with the characters still acting like themselves.

It's not about whether a specific character can exhibit certain behaviors. It is all about the situation in which they exhibit those behaviors. Zuko and Katara have both exhibited good, relationship-positive traits. Thing is, they would never direct those behaviors at each other. They have no cause to, and ample cause not to.

You have a point about Schatcher-Singer, and I've considered it, but really, it doesn't preclude the possibility of something genuine also being there, unless you like to analyze to the point where all emotion is pathology. Watching their behavior, there's a compatibility between Aang and Katara that just isn't there for Zuko and Katara while they remain in-character, which all good writing will maintain. The fanfic that was referenced earlier, with Zuko abusing Katara and leading to "love," could possibly be rationalized with Stockholm Syndrome, but Stockholm Syndrome is tricky as hell to write properly, and Zuko's character isn't conducive to it.

11/14/2011 #134
Odekake

Stockholm Syndrome, perhaps. That would be a believable reason, but the person who wrote the story seemed to be shooting off at any detractors by saying that if you truly loved someone, you would stay with them no matter what. In other words, this writer seems to truly believe that it's okay for Zuko to abuse Katara and have her fall in love with him and have it be "true love".

11/14/2011 #135
Marius Prime

Right. I've seen the fic you're talking about, KBPS. Haven't read it, but I glanced through the author's comments, and yeah, that's the impression I get. The author seems to default to the assumption that Katara and Zuko are in love from the start, and that interacting in any way, no matter how horrible, will bring that to the surface. It's terrifying, really.

11/14/2011 #136
Odekake

I completely agree with that, and I'm wondering if I should leave that fic a scathing review once I can actually find the right words. But I doubt that my words will make that writer see that what s/he is writing is not romantic at all. It's one thing to write about an abusive relationship knowing that it's abusive and not healthy. It's a completely different matter when the writer actually believes that this is a healthy, normal relationship. Seriously, if a similar situation were happening to two people in real life, people would be screaming at the woman to get out of that relationship. But when it's a fanfic with characters they love and/or know, then suddenly it's all right!

11/14/2011 #137
Crow's Reach

Whoa, Prime, I never said don't write about people. Because fictional people are still people nonetheless. What I meant was that comparing the formation of a fictional relationship, one that has been planned and written out and can only change if the author allows it, comparing that to ones that exist between actual human beings where there are other factors and other background stories not written by someone elses hand and is completely unpredictable, that is not legit enough to say that it won't work out. I never once reccomended that anyone should make their chracters act in wierd ways, how an author makes a character behave is up to them. Because what is wierd to me may be the norm to ten other people.

As far as me liking OOC fanfiction, is it wierd because it's not very popular? No, it's just a preference that happens to be different from yours. I think its wierd that you don't like OOC. Saying I'm wierd for liking OOC fics is like calling someone wierd for liking crossovers. Of course I read original stories, (who doesnt?) If I wanted to strictly read OS I wouldnt have bothered coming to the site. sometimes I enjoy seeing different sides of ATLA characters. How would ATLA be different if Aang were hotheaded? Or if Mai was always full of energy and happy-go-lucky? That is what I'm interested in. And by who's standards are you defining creativity? I think I said it many times that what I posted was simply my opnion. And when dealing with creativity you cannot lable it otherwise simply because you disagree with what I said. The same goes for me. Whose to say it is creative because I like it? Well, that's a matter of opinion.

And ignorance of the principles of writing and good fiction? Considering that I am a professional writer I strongly disagree. I don't believe there is such a term as "good" or "bad" writing. I think there are works that are not my cup of tea and others that match my liking very well. There is no definition, no set standard that determines what writing is good and what is not because everyone has different tastes. As you can see, I like some fics where characters are a bit OOC, you obviously don't. Does that make the writer a bad one? Or their story unenjoyable? No not for me. Does that make the writer of a story whose characters match the show perfectly a bad writer? No. Not at all.

And you are right, its really not about characters exhibiting certain behaviors, because that's not what OOC is. Its a combination. Both putting them in new situations and exhibiting off screen behavior. And of course Kataang is genuine, it's written in the script.....

11/14/2011 #138
Marius Prime

For a professional writer, you're certainly having to clarify a lot, which is a sign of poor communication. I'd be skeptical, but I suppose that if rubbish like Twilight sees print, anybody can make a living with a keyboard. Even with your rather - *ahem* - rudimentary technical skills.

You said that you don't see the problems with a Zuko/Katara relationship, as well as the Twilight romance, because the relationships are fictional, and therefore inherently unreal. So what? The problem with both of these relationships is that the characters are acting in ways that people do not act. They are not believable, and therefore bad. How can you not get this, and still be a writer?

I said that liking OOC fiction is "weird" because failure to maintain consistent characterization is one of the worst traits a fiction writer can have, by any educated standard. In fact, you appear to not have any sort of formal education in writing at all, since you believe that there is no such thing as "bad writing," only tastes. There are, in fact, standards. Take a literature class, or creative writing, or SOMETHING that will break you out of your hippie all-accepting mindset, because that is actively detrimental to improving as a writer.

11/14/2011 #139
pancakes are relevant

I've never been a fan of Zutara and here's why: it is the same old story over again. Bad boy meets nice girl, he's firey she's cool like water blah blah blah, there's nothing new about it and it leads into a whole series of opposites. Once people root for Zuko and Katara then they'll be rooting for Aang and Toph just because their elements are opposite of one another, even though they're obviously wrong for each other. Katara and Aang is different from the typical stories because: 1. she's older than him, 2. it was never really obvious throughout the series if Katara liked him or not so it didn't become one of those cheesy we're both in love with each other but our self esteem is too low for us to do anything about it things, and 3. They're relationship has meaning unlike the passion induced ordeal Zutara shippers are hoping for. Yes Aang's not the best looking kid but that's not really what a relationship's built on anyway.

Finally: Does any of this really matter? The series ended 3 years ago. Obviously nothing's going to change. Arguing for the sake of arguing is juvenile. I'm not opposed to debates, but I hate it when people begin to antagonize and disrespect others for having a different opinion. I know younger people aren't always aware of other people's feelings but this is the internet, once you've insulted somebody it's out there and you can't just smile and say you're still friends. Please remember this is a kid's show so that person you're antagonizing might just be a kid.

11/14/2011 #140
Crow's Reach

Its not that I have to clarify things, or that there is bad communication. You just refuse to accept an opnion that dares to disagree with yours. You really have a hard time looking at things from a different perspective don't you?

Maybe you should stop throwing insults and just think for a second, not everyone will agree with you. clearly.

And characters acting in ways that people don't act, of course, they're not real. What part of that don't you understand? Did you miss the part where I said that what's normal to one may be different to another?

I have taken a creative writing class, many to be honest. Have you? If so did you fail? How about creative expression? Outside of high school? If so, did you fail? Becuase creativity does not have standards or rules. It does not cease to exist because some boxed up moron just can't get the picture. You would have learned this had you furthured your education in writing. You my friend, need to learn to be more accepting rather than getting upset and insulting others everytime someone doesnt bow down and agree with your point of view and I have agreed with some of the things you've posted. You have good points in your arguments as well. But there are only likes and dislikes in the world of creativity. No one is wrong because each individual is different. Must I say it again? What you think is bland or unhealthy may be rich and exotic to another. One man's trash is another man's treasure. Heard of the saying? It's the epitome of what I've been telling you over and over. How can YOU not get that as a human being?

And I think a fanfiction is more than consistent if the characters are OOC from the start. Besides whose to say it isnt consistent. Whats consistent to you may be jumbled and random to me. Opinions Prime. That's what I'm saying.

I'm done with this conversation. Thank You for your time.

11/14/2011 #141
Crow's Reach

Pancakes I agree with you. Except I don't like Zutara for those reasons at all. And I certainly dont like Toph and Aang. Besides, to me, there's nothing new about Kataang just as there is nothing new about Zutara. I mean, Kataang was written in the script, no spontaneity there.

But yes, I thought I would grow gray hairs before someone brought up the fact that the show ended years ago. Absolutely nothing will change no matter who anyone ships. That's what's laughable and yet I continue to entertain such foolish arguments.

11/14/2011 #142
pancakes are relevant

@ProudOtaku Thanks for the input and I'm glad I'm not the only one who doesn't get why this argument has gone on so long. Personally I don't really care all that much about Avatar ships so idk why I even posted on here. I do love the show, but once it ended I felt like it was over, I might one day be tempted to read an adventure story about Zuko finding his mother, but I would never want to think of the character's relationships toward one another in more than a PG sense, and that's probably because I'm 19 so they all seem so young. Personally I'm into HPFF. I know Harry was eleven when the series started, but I grew up with him and I didn't start watching Avatar until about a year ago. Also most of the fics I read are about older characters like Charlie or Oliver or Harry or Draco after Hogwarts. I guess once you get to a certain age these things don't matter, which might be why I don't understand the majority of people on this forum.

11/14/2011 #143
Cadilus

I do think that its the bad boy thing going on that makes Zutara appealing, however, as far as some Zutara fans seeing themselves as Katara?

This is just it, though. The other classic stereotypes that you claimed (and I would agree) Aang, Sokka, and Zuko portray...they're pretty darn close to the truth. With Zutara, it's simply not the case. Jet is the "bad boy", plain and simple. Zuko isn't a bad boy, at all -- he's a conflicted, suffering, goodhearted-beneath-his-j***-exterior, possessive, strong-willed dork. When people call Zuko a "bad boy" in any situation, they're already casting a substantial bias over the character that affects their interpretation of the show. The interpretation of Zuko as a "bad boy" is an incorrect interpretation.

In short, it's less a bad boy thing going on that makes Zutara appealing and more a willingness to view a character as one wants to view him rather than as he is portrayed. Same thing with Twilight -- someone mentioned a "bad boy" thing, when in reality Edward seemed to me to be one of the most gentlemanly "good boys"(?) to hit the typed page. He is so far from a Jet-character...

I don't see any problem with liking the ship, or any ship, for any reason -- but it is OOC, and OOC cannot by definition make writing better. (And characters in AU likely won't be OOC even if they're different from how they are in the show...but JUST making a character OOC and then calling it AU is one of the laziest things I can imagine from fanfiction.)

For me its quite enjoyable to see an author take such an important and popular character as Zuko, make him OOC and still have the fic work out ok. That's creativity at its best. In my opinon.

I personally see it in this way: which employs greater creativity...creating a new character from the ashes of the old (OOC), or playing within the confines of what already exists and pulling out new and intriguing revelations? And if one believes the former, why make the argument that fanfiction is creative at all? I ask this only from a speculative standpoint and would love to discuss it.

As far as Schatcher-Singer syndrome goes...it makes a lot of sense. But the connection was there instantly, and we see it all throughout the first couple episodes. We see it again as we move through the series...and many of the times when we see the most affection between them, they're doing something playful, lighthearted, without death hanging over their heads. I would apply the Schatcher-Singer syndrome most readily to the second half of Season 3, when everything is dark and defeat looms, except that there's no romance there. Cave of Two Lovers could be a solid S-S example, especially if looked at out of context. This could be a really interesting topic to take up.

How can anyone argue that Zutara or Kataang or any pairing is unappealing because they wouldnt work out in reality?

That's not a bad point. I could counter that Zutara wouldn't work out in AtLA, either, but that ground has been treaded so much already by both sides that even if I were inclined I probably wouldn't do it.

But fiction, apart from otherwise specified traits in SciFi/Fantasy, has to follow the laws of reality. If your characters are human beings, they better behave like human beings. We as readers expect the story to make sense within its own context. And there will always be a following that prefers its own logic to the original story's logic, and I don't condemn that...but it's not good writing. As such, if a relationship between two human beings in a story wouldn't work between these two human beings in reality, we can safely say it wouldn't work in the story, either.

All that said, to say it's "unappealing" is merely an opinion. If it's not, it's factually incorrect, because it very clearly does appeal to a lot of people for whatever reasons.

11/14/2011 #144
Cadilus

And I think a fanfiction is more than consistent if the characters are OOC from the start. Besides whose to say it isnt consistent. Whats consistent to you may be jumbled and random to me. Opinions Prime. That's what I'm saying.

Because it's fanfiction, it implicitly builds on the story that came before. As such, the consistency is with the original material.

You've taken creative writing classes, so I'm probably not telling you anything you don't know, but characters are built from their experiences. To make a single character OOC, you need to change some things that happened in the character's past or (less effectively) present. Big things, preferably, if the character is particularly OOC. Would Zuko have been so over-possessive of Mai in "The Beach" if he hadn't lost everything he'd known for three whole years with no hope of recovering them? Maybe, maybe not. But imagine if he hadn't been exiled...if he'd just been scarred. We might get a totally different character.

Once experiences have been changed, then we're not just talking about OOC, we're now talking about AU...and I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I think that AU is totally legitimate and fits the original source material as a tribute. It's saying, "Ok, here is source material, now I'm going to get creative and imagine that THIS happened instead of THIS, and he found HIM instead of HER and THEY hadn't left HERE, and let's see where this leads the characters."

What it's NOT saying is, "Ok, here is the source material, now I'm going to pretend that this is true instead of the canon despite the fact that there's no logical reason for it to be true." That's one of the differences I see between AU (viable for great writing) and OOC (viable for bad writing).

11/14/2011 #145
Marius Prime

I am fantastic at looking at things from a different perspective. I also happen to be fairly gifted at thinking analytically, which is why I don't think that just because somebody else thinks it, it suddenly becomes right.

It's true that not everybody will agree with me. Those people are, more often than not, completely wrong, either empirically or by commonly recognized standards. In this case, the latter.

The part that I don't understand is how you don't understand that it's the writer's job to MAKE THEM REAL. If the characters are not believable as human beings, then the writer has failed, and individual quirks do not override fundamental humanity. Therefore, the fact that it is a fictional situation does not excuse the writer from a failure to make character interaction credible.

Yes, I've taken multiple university-level courses on literature and creative writing. I did exceptionally well, because I am very good at LITERARY ANALYSIS, the practice of subjecting a written piece to judgment based on established standards - the very thing you're dismissing in favor of tastes and preferences. One man's trash is indeed another man's treasure, but if you go around with rubies in one hand and newspaper that had been wrapped around a dead fish until recently in the other and offer a choice, most people are going to be of the "opinion" that rubies are preferable. Why? Because our culture is of the "opinion" that precious stones are more valuable than paper that smells fishy, based on commonly accepted standards. That is what you're arguing against.

It boggles the mind, that a person that claims to be an educated professional can be so willfully ignorant.

11/14/2011 #146
Crow's Reach

Fullmetal......you posted so much......but WELL said especially the AU part. And I only called Zuko a "bad boy" because I was responding to someone elses post and I believe they referred to him as that. I do not in any way see him as a bad boy, in fact I took no side, Zutara or Kataang until I stumbled upon this website. I was fine with the outcome and still am, but it bothers me a little when others-for lack of better words- "look down upon" authors who choose to write less popular fics such as OOC and AU. And I don't think OOC can make a person's writing better but perhaps the story itself. I mean if Aang wasnt his usual forgiving self (I think that falls under OOC) in a fic based solely on book three of ATLA, I would find that a bit interesting. Wouldnt a less forgiving, less "monk like" Aang alter the ending of the show just a bit? Seeing that work out and still enjoying the story is in my opinon pretty cool. But thats just me.

I personally see it in this way: which employs greater creativity...creating a new character from the ashes of the old (OOC), or playing within the confines of what already exists and pulling out new and intriguing revelations? And if one believes the former, why make the argument that fanfiction is creative at all? I ask this only from a speculative standpoint and would love to discuss it.

Hmmm, very good question. Naturally I would shout creating a new character is more creative but is it more difficult to create something new from the old or to take what already exists and create new conflicts? New experiences? And new outcomes? But then, building a new character from what's already there would naturally bring about new circumstances correct? Any input here? My mind is swirling right now lol

Pancakes......again, WELL said. I have only read two pages of HP, the very first book some odd years ago. Its not my cup of tea but I know it must be popular for a reason. I can see what you mean about only wanting to view the couples of ATLA in a PG format. I think you're the first I've heard say that but there are so many dirty fics out there. Sometimes I wonder, where do these ideas come from???? lol

11/14/2011 #147
pancakes are relevant

@Marius Prime I understand that you're passionate about this subject but at this point you're not presenting persuasive writing, and I would think someone with a strong English background would want to be good at that. You won't change other people's opinions by insulting them or patting yourself on the back. When people write when they're angry they almost never present a persuasive argument. You started out with some really good points, but over the course of the conversation your writing has deteriorated and now you've presented yourself as someone who uses insults and a false sense of superiority to get your way. No one wants to listen to that type of person so please just take a deep breath and curb your temper. I know you're probably going to send a reply about how I have no right to judge you and I'm probably a hippie, etc. but this needs to be said. Think about how you're presenting yourself before you do it, then maybe people will actually listen to what you have to say.

11/14/2011 #148
Odekake

Looking at the way people write their posts on here, and sometimes the things that they believe in, it seems as if there is a big age gap and a difference in personal experiences between a lot of the primary figures on each side. I'm pretty sure both Amira Elizabeth and Marius Prime are older than the majority of the posters, and I think they mentioned in some of their older posts on other threads here that they both have personal experiences that allow them to substantiate their disagreements with relationships like Zutara and Twilight using first-hand experience. They also tend to give very in-detail analysis of how the human mind typically works psychologically, stuff that even fictional character should abide by if they want to be believable. To me, it seems like two really different groups of people arguing, when an argument does come up.

11/14/2011 #149
Crow's Reach

I have to agree about the age gap KBPS, but young or old none of us have reason enough to throw insults. Not pointing fingers or saying that I'm an innocent victim or evil agressor. Just simply agreeing. Although forums can bring out the worst in all of us if you allow them too.

11/14/2011 #150
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