Kataang or Zutara?
This argument has come up a lot, what are your opinions about Kataang and Zutara? Which pairing is more likely? Do you think they're age differences really matter? Everyone's invited! Keep it respectful, though.
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Mrs Pettyfer

^That would have been nice ending with everyone staring over the balcony. I can picture it now...lol. Well said TS.

1/5/2011 #61
thebloodfiend

Yes, a group hug would have been the perfect ending. Signifying that the four nations had united and were at peace, even though in reality this would have been impossible. I know it's a kid's show, but it's like Bryke knows nothing about history. I doubt Germany and Japan were willing to let America and co. beat them down, then sit with them at tea. But this is television, not reality. Just goes to show -- never trust Nick for anything.

1/5/2011 #62
Amira Elizabeth

I actually liked the ending. Not just because of the kiss, but because we saw the characters doing what they should be - acting as a family and being able to relax fully. Not that I don't thing a group hug on the balcony wouldn't have been nice, but I kind of liked seeing them as they were and that is how we leave them - bickering, laughing, having fun and enjoying each other.

I'm not going to go into my views on the kiss because honestly all there is to it is I liked it. I liked that they didn't leave it open. I liked that it was a kiss instead of a hug because to me a hug is friendship, but a kiss is something more.

1/5/2011 #63
Fullmetal Catalyst

thebloodfiend: two points. First being that, while you're right about the cultures, it's important to take the state of the South Water Tribe into consideration. 1st cousin? Probably not. 3rd cousin? In a society that small and remote, it's quite likely. No Air Nomads, Earth Kingdom is under siege and losing, and the North, as Katara says, is too far away for contact. She can't marry anyone else, and the tribe must survive. Second being that, I think it's important to remember Aang. If you've read/seen Watchmen, imagine a Dr. Manhattan who actually cares about his world, and you have Aang. If you haven't read/seen Watchmen, then just remember that Aang cares about balance too much to allow anything but peace. Although, yeah, for it to happen so soon would require an imagination stretch (that the nations really ARE too tired of fighting to continue). Not a huge stretch, but a stretch nonetheless. Don't think of post-WWII, think of post-WWI. Took 20 years for people who hated each other to start shooting again.

TS: though the initial outcry might have been lessened, the shipping debates would have intensified. From what I've seen by this point, Kataang is accepted as the canon one , and most of the debate either comes from a few eloquent Zutarans who see canonical justification (or a few diehard idiots on both sides) or from the fact that some people don't express themselves as clearly as the other side would like (miscommunication of sorts). Without a clear "winner" (it hurts my fingers to type that term here), every side would have risen up in an attempt to convince the other side that THEIR ship was canon, ignoring the few objective neutralists who said, "No, actually, canon is what Bryke say it is, and they didn't say ANYTHING." When you leave ambiguity, people have unlimited ammunition. Hell, take Crossroads of Destiny and the cave scene. It's not very ambiguous about what's going on, but because it's not blatant, people interpret it differently (and radically so) in droves.

And yes, the sun's setting :)

1/5/2011 #64
Fullmetal Catalyst

"But by picking Aang and Zuko apart we aren't really accomplishing anything because both sides have determined that Katara isn't really suited for either of them. Of course I expect to be jumped on for that comment."

I won't jump on you :)

But I will ask that you not generalize with "both sides", and rather say "many people on both sides", if that's what you mean. I find Katara and Aang to be...not opposites, but complementary "differents", if that makes any sense (and if there's a difference). They bring each other to life, literally and figuratively. I'll admit, though, that true to your point I had more trouble finding deep reasons for Aang to like Katara than vice versa.

1/5/2011 #65
thebloodfiend

I agree Amira, and Cadmos. The kiss provides closure, but I would have just liked a neutral ending. Of course that would make even more arguments -- or maybe not -- but hey, there's still that little bit of me that wished Jetara, Zutara, or even Aangzula had happened. Call me crazy, but I'll support just about anything except slash/i***/or weird age gaps, ie Iroh/Jun.

And I've read Watchmen. I didn't like it. I preferred V for Vendetta. Alan Moore, Jeph Loeb, and Frank Miller -- except for Year 1 -- just don't do it for me. It's just hard to take Avatar in terms of the real world. Like Ohba -- Death Note -- and Meyer -- who's vastly inferior to both -- Bryke really needed to do a history review, and a review of how government really works. That's my main beef with Avatar. Their politics are all over the place.

How old is everyone btw? Just curious cause I hear some people are married. I'm 16, going into college next year.

1/5/2011 #66
Fullmetal Catalyst

Heh, I also preferred Vendetta (such a stylish vigilante, V is), but there's no denying that in the Watchmen 'verse Dr. Manhattan plays a somewhat similar role to Aang in terms of power and international peace.

Part of why it's hard to take Avatar in terms of the real world is because of what makes it so different: the bending. Doesn't throw in a wrench as much as a sack of wrenches. I can see Avatar's politics needing improvement, but can I ask specifics? Not necessary, I'm just curious because I never really thought about the political sphere except as it related to the Avatars.

1/5/2011 #67
Marius Prime

I thought the kiss was alright. It provided adequate closure, anyway. I'd have preferred at least a little dialogue, but with the time constraints, I figure the kiss was elegant simplicity.

I agree with Cadmos, though. Why does Katara like Aang? Well, that's easy. He's not just a powerful bender, but a hero, with nobility and maturity far beyond most people, let alone others of his age. He's not flawless, and sometimes that cracks, but he's bearing greater burdens than anybody should have to, let alone someone trying to deal with puberty at the same time.

Why does Aang like Katara? Well, she's pretty enough, I suppose... She's got an okay personality, once you get used to her, but it's pretty much an appearance-based infatuation at first.

I also agree with Summer's Frost about something, oddly enough. I'm not a big Watchmen fan. Not really seeing where the politics in Avatar are relevant to anything, though. It's a kung fu epic, not a social commentary. V for Vendetta wasn't without its flaws in understanding either, considering that Guy Fawkes was actually trying to institute a more tyrannical and oppressive political system.

Oh, and I'm 28, since you asked.

1/5/2011 #68
Fullmetal Catalyst

Exactly, Marius. Though I would say they move from attraction/infatuation to friendship at a similar pace. He's not the Avatar to her until the end of episode 2, after all.

Katara's pretty easy to figure. Along with Marius' points, Aang is also just one of those cheerful souls (to Zuko's exasperation in "The Firebending Masters"). Part of having grown up in a world at relative peace, in an Air Temple where his great feat was to invent the "air scooter", with a fluffy bison to fly around...point being, Aang is untouched by violence. He has a pure heart and a pure soul, and he has an open cheerfulness that no one in the world can possibly match. The war takes a good bit out of him, but he retains that childlike joy in the little things. He's just incredibly fun to be around. Not all the time, but the fun vastly outweighs the aggravation. Extremely attractive to a 14-year-old girl who all but saw her mother murdered, who's been "abandoned" by her father, and who has to "mother" not only her annoying brother but also the entire village, with initial frustration that she's alone as a Waterbender. She's pulled in so many directions (*cough* the ocean tides), the result being that the world threatens to keep her rooted in place, but with Aang she can be so free (*cough* air: surprise!).

As for why Aang likes Katara? There is the initial attraction, of course: she took him out of the iceberg, she's pretty (add some exoticism, to an Air Nomad), and she's immensely friendly. I would say, though, that he's very quickly drawn to her compassion, the loving attention she gives him, the fire she keeps hidden (both the fun and the stubborn: she penguin-sleds with him, she's not afraid to stand up to the entire village for him). She becomes someone he can always, always rely on, and she goes the extra step (she's not just a shoulder to cry on or a hug to...de-Avatar-ize?...but also a smile to laugh with and a friend to hang with and...etc.). To the point where she becomes his earthly attachment. She keeps him grounded (figuratively speaking) so he doesn't lose himself (e.g. in the berserk Avatar state) when he's flying from heavy responsibility to heavy responsibility.

So my conclusion would be that they both start out as friends with an initial attraction that quickly grows into a friendship based on joyful appreciation of each other's personalities and values that over time grows into deeper feelings of connection and romantic love (not a "I can't live without you", rather a "I want to live with you until Korra is born", just to clarify there). Add the Bending and the complementary elements (I'm a fan of that reasoning, what can I say?), and it's even better.

Still, it was harder to come up with Aang's reasons than Katara's.

1/5/2011 #69
Amira Elizabeth
Great post, Cadmos! I think another reason is like Aang, Katara can be open, helpful, and friendly. I think her being so willing to accept him immediately and become friends was attractive to him. And like him she sometimes headed off without necessarily thinking first to meet new people or help those she felt were in trouble. Another is that she always saw him as Aang. He was the Avatar, but she always saw the human boy who first - the one who needed love and attention to his needs. Finding out he was being sent away to train and leave Gyatso was i think painful for Aang because not only was he being taken away from the people he loved, but he was also aware then that it was the Avatar who would come first because the Avatar keeps the balance in the world. Aang the boy would have to take a backseat to Aang the Avatar. And Katara never let Aang the boy take a backseat. I love Aang and Katara together. I have a whole thing written up as to why. I'll have to post it later today, but it's off to the dentist. Bleh.
1/6/2011 #70
Fullmetal Catalyst

ARGH. Great call, Amira. I can't believe I neglected that reason. For the most part, Katara sees people first, which is probably what gives way to the most common Zutara canonical justification (CoD crystal cave) and certainly what gives way to much of the Kataang relationship.

Looking forward to the "thing"! Hope the dentistry goes well.

1/6/2011 #71
thebloodfiend

Very good points guys. But something that you said Amira really hit the mark. Aang the boy would always take a backseat to Aang the Avatar. I think that goes back to Zuko sending the assassin after Aang, and Zhao -- not to mention all adults -- having no qualms about taking out a kid.

I'm not trying to let the Fire Nation off the hook with this comment, but I'm going to try and stick to the real world as close as I can. During war, I'll use WW2 as an example because I've studied it the most, propaganda is a big part of shifting your country to rally behind you. I think the Fire Nation had really brainwashed their country into thinking the Avatar was evil. I mean, after what happened with Sozin and Roku, I don't think it would have been that hard to convince the people that the Avatar had it out for the Fire Nation and their Golden age of peace. I mean, America was fooled into thinking Germany had the best intentions for the Jews for almost ten years. Henry Ford, and IBM even supported the Third R***.

How hard would it have been to train children from the time they were five to think that the Avatar was evil. It was even shown in the Deserter what sort of plays they were showing them. To them, Aang really isn't a boy, but more or less the vessel of the Avatar. It's like a God taking the body of a child -- to them anyway. I think that's why they had no qualms about capturing him.

But the real thing about this that gets me is, even if this is true -- they're wrong. The only thing that makes the Avatar so powerful is his connection to the spirit world and that he can speak with his past lives. Any one can go to the Spirit World -- Sokka and Iroh have done it. So being the Avatar must connect directly with being able to tap into his past lives. The spirit energy of his past lives gives him the energy to bend four elements. Bending isn't genetic, otherwise the two identical twins in the Fortune Teller would have both been Earthbenders. So it is possible for there to be other Airbenders without Aang having to get with anyone, but apparently it is more complicated than that -- otherwise Teo and the other kids up in the Northern Airtemple would have been able to bend.

Anyway. it must be the ability to connect with the spirit energy of hi past lives that makes him the Avatar. But the faulty logic in this is that everyone -- following Buddhist beliefs anyway -- reincarnates. As seen by the mistakes his past lives have made, the Avatar is no Buddha and he definitely is no Jesus. So if everyone has past lives, why can't they connect with them? I took Aang's ability to easily connect with them as part of his AirNomad abilities. But if everyone has past lives, couldn't a monk just hook up with his and start bending the four elements? Their spirits must get reincarnated into other nations too, otherwise more AirNomads would have been born in other parts of the world following their genocide. So why isn't everyone an Avatar? Is it just because the spirits favor the original avatar's spirit over everyone else?

Just my thoughts, sorry for getting off track.

As for their politics Marius. I think they're important because war revolves around politics. But I think there was a thread discussing how messed up their world is anyone. There is no way you can filter in the Avatar, who works for no-one, with the crazy government systems of that world.

And for the most part I like Kataang. I have my favorite Kataang story under my favorite stories on my profile. I just don't like the way the show rapped it up. I am however a big fan of the Best Friends Fall In Love story. Very cliche I know, but if done right it's awesome. Guess that's why I ship Harry/Hermione. But I've never been on the Harmony forums before, heck I've never written HP fanfic, or even visited their fan sites.

I think Katara and Aang would be good for each other after Aang matured. I just really don't think they should have rushed him into a relationship like that. I ship Blackwater -- four year age difference --, and Rose/Adrian -- also four year age difference, and I hate VA -- but I think they work because both characters are at the same maturity level. I just think it would take Aang maybe four more years to catch up to Katara so they could be balanced.

Perhaps the perfect ending would have been them doing a four years later sort of thing. A group hug -- with no Maiko, sorry I just don't like them together, but Kataang is cool -- then after everyone hugged we get Katara hanging around, asking Aang to wait after everyone is gone. Then they talk -- after making it clear he apologized for the EIP thing years ago -- and after that a kiss. Then roll credits. I think most Zutarians would have been happy if Zuko wasn't with Mai. It would have made me happier. It's not like you need Taang to have Zutara -- even if AU Taang is cute -- so you really don't need Maiko for Kataang. Hope I haven't offended any one.

1/6/2011 #72
Fullmetal Catalyst

Not offended at all. I don't know how to quote with blocks, so please bear with my lack of forum skills.

"I think that goes back to Zuko sending the assassin after Aang, and Zhao -- not to mention all adults -- having no qualms about taking out a kid."

Very true. As you say, it doesn't let them off the hook, but it puts it very neatly in perspective. To add to this, while Zhao's just a malicious warmonger, Zuko has relatively pure reasons for wanting Aang gone. Selfish, but pure. He just wants to be accepted by his family, his nation, but ESPECIALLY his father. The only reason he's even searching for Aang is because he thinks only something THAT impressive would appease his father, the man he thinks he needs to follow.

Fire Nation propaganda: yes. For a century, really, the FN has been under the shadow of a terrible atmosphere of hate and rage. Not to mention even Zuko, who should know something about the Avatar if he wants to catch him, thinks Aang is an old man at first. The Avatar Aang in most people's minds. Zuko isn't excused for his actions, but I wouldn't dare denounce the fact that he was trying to regain his honor.

I think the Avatar was created as, well, an "avatar" of balance. Someone in the distant past was imbued or awoke with the power to be the Avatar, to represent the spirit world on Earth. No one else can connect with their past lives on the level that the Avatar can because he (Aang) is not only connected, but he's also the conduit itself. Katara mentions to Yue that he's the bridge between their world and ours. I don't know how it originated, but the Avatar is the only bridge that exists.

Regarding the ending: I always wished Zuko had ended up alone. His character arc and development are very solo-oriented. I don't know much of Mai because I didn't see all of episodes 3-9 in the 3rd season, but Zuko is a lone wolf in a LOT of ways. Given a couple nudges from his uncle now and again, he'd do perfectly fine on his own as Firelord. However, I disagree with a four-year difference. Think about how much these characters change in just 9-12 months (the entire series). Though there are certainly fewer catalysts for change with balance restored, they are still largely a group of kids entering/experiencing a very hormonal period with a LOT of growth. If the issue is maturity, then it would need to be shown through development, which they had no time for. It could be skimmed over or simply assumed, but then we might as well just have the kiss the day/week after, as happened, rather than wait four years. Though inexperienced in our society's conventional romance, Aang is mature enough, having been forced over the last year to grow well beyond his years (something he and Katara share). Also, while I kind of wished Aang (AND Katara, but that's another debate) had apologized for the EIP business...an apology 4 years later? That would be hanging on to it too long, I would think.

Nevertheless, I suppose a time lapse (whatever the period) could definitely have been a viable path, as much of the above is opinion-based. Just very difficult to pull off given that they had very few minutes of ending to address a fair amount of things while still keeping the awesome stuff (Zuko serving Iroh tea was pure brilliance).

1/6/2011 #73
TigerShadow

TS: though the initial outcry might have been lessened, the shipping debates would have intensified. From what I've seen by this point, Kataang is accepted as the canon one , and most of the debate either comes from a few eloquent Zutarans who see canonical justification (or a few diehard idiots on both sides) or from the fact that some people don't express themselves as clearly as the other side would like (miscommunication of sorts). Without a clear "winner" (it hurts my fingers to type that term here), every side would have risen up in an attempt to convince the other side that THEIR ship was canon, ignoring the few objective neutralists who said, "No, actually, canon is what Bryke say it is, and they didn't say ANYTHING." When you leave ambiguity, people have unlimited ammunition. Hell, take Crossroads of Destiny and the cave scene. It's not very ambiguous about what's going on, but because it's not blatant, people interpret it differently (and radically so) in droves.

Eh. I mentioned that I'm not big on getting into shipping wars. I've seen what it does to the HP fandom, I've seen what it does to this fandom, and I don't want to get too heavily involved.

Largely, by those eloquent Zutarians and/or those who tolerate the canon but don't support it, Kataang is accepted. But those Zutarians are few and far between, and it is that fact that makes me irritated. I see many an obnoxious comment aimed at Bryke, and as I have stated before, it's embarassing to those few sane Zutarians. However, I do see the point in making a "winner," though I was upset that on the Avatar Extras they had to make a Take That comment to Zutarians during the ending Kataang kiss.

...Yeah, lots of shippers are completely insane. That's why debates are so fun! XD

Oh, and as far as quoting with blocks goes, when you start to type your post, there's an area that has "Styles" written with a drop-down arrow. There's a Quote one, which--when you click on it after highlighting the block of text--does the block quote formatting. Further along the top, there's an eraser-looking thing next to a curvy arrow that I don't know quite what it does, which erases the formatting.

But I've never been on the Harmony forums before,

And you don't want to. You want to differentiate between Harmony and Harry/Hermione, because Harmony is basically the hub of insane shippers who believe that not only is Harry/Hermione their OTP, but Ginny is the school bicycle and Ron is going to abuse/r*** Hermione if they get together. Harry/Hermione fans, meanwhile, just enjoy the pairing and prefer it over what is canon. This is similar to the Zutara fandom, as there are plenty of insane shippers, but then there are those who can actually put up an argument. Anyway, as we're not here to discuss Harry Potter, let us return to the course of topic.

1/6/2011 . Edited 1/6/2011 #74
Mrs Pettyfer

^It seems now you've peaked my curiosity. I shall check out the Harry/Hermione threads! lol Eek I can't swallow that pairing, but that's just me. :P

Excellent points Cadmos.

You know if you notice when Zuko refers to Aang, he always called him 'The Avatar' which I think shows he doesn't look at him as a 12 year old boy. Like Amira pointed out, there's the boy Aang and Avatar Aang. When Zuko first finds Aang, he refers to him as just being a child. But after Aang bests him and escapes his ship, he mentions something along the lines of never under estimating him again. From that moment on, I think Zuko looked at Aang as a threat and a shred of hope to regain his honor. Not that it excuses him sending a hitman after Aang, but I don't think he viewed it as 'I'm sending a hitman after a kid.' In Zuko's eyes, he wasn't a typical kid. He was a reincarnated being of past lives and the one way ticket to his throne, kingdom, and family. Like I said, it doesn't excuse the things he did but like Cadmos mentions, it puts it into perspective.

Zuko's entire situation is complex given his past. It's a horrible position to be in. To be honest, it would be silly for Zuko to hire someone to 'end Aang' as he would be reborn into another nation and thus the hunt would continue.

Cadmos, I too wish Zuko had ended up alone. Mai sort of came out of no where in regards to a relationship with Zuko. It's never really explained if they got together before he was banished, or when he's allowed back in the Fire Nation. It just happens. And really, the entire time he's in the Fire Nation he's conflicted about when he betrayed his uncle. His change of heart and character was really his own doing with the help of his uncle. I personally don't think Mai was part of his change..if anything she was a tie from his past life. Not that Mai needed some effect on him, but the point being like with what Cadmos was saying. He went through his inner journey virtually alone (aside from Iroh) and it would have made sense at least in my eyes for him to end up alone.

As far as the apology, I too think 4 years later is a tad late. I think some kind of explaination of that entire scene on both Aang and Katara's side should have been addressed in the finale before their kiss. If that meant cutting into Zuko and Mai's moment, than so be it. :P

1/6/2011 . Edited 1/6/2011 #75
Amira Elizabeth
Cadmos - I'll take you up on that Katara issue with EIP. I think she needed to do some apologizing. I've got other points to address as well in these above posts, but the dentist ended up being dental surgery, so I'm pretty zonked out
1/6/2011 #76
Fullmetal Catalyst

TS, thank you very much. Time to go to town with this quote stuff...

You know if you notice when Zuko refers to Aang, he always called him 'The Avatar'

Just so. I'm trying to think of how he addresses him after he joins the Gaang, but I can't remember. As Firelord, it's 'The Avatar'.

Zuko's entire situation is complex given his past. It's a horrible position to be in. To be honest, it would be silly for Zuko to hire someone to 'end Aang' as he would be reborn into another nation and thus the hunt would continue.

Exactly. And his subconscious at least realizes how trapped he is. On the one hand, exile forever and what he thinks is a permanent loss of honor. On the other...defeating a Master Airbender who can also summon apocalyptic power. No wonder he's so frustrated all the time. The hitman, I thought, was partially desperation from so much failure and partially secrecy so Ozai doesn't suspect.

Zuko's whole deal, the honor search, is what makes him my favorite character. From "The Beach" ("I'm angry at myself!!!") to his enlightenment in "The Firebending Masters" and taking the lightning bolt and serving tea, I enjoyed every moment of his gradual evolution from wild, empty rage to steady, focused passion. The only Maiko moments I really got into were the ones that in some way furthered Zuko's redemption (as when she saves the trolley in BR).

Amira, I look forward to it.

1/6/2011 #77
Mrs Pettyfer

I think Zuko calls Aang by his name when he joins the group. Yes! It just hit me...when Katara and Zuko were off to fight Azula..Katara says something like "Zuko, it's okay we can take Azula." And Zuko says "I'm not worried about her, I'm worried about Aang." Or something like that but he does use Aang's name.

For those reasons you mention Cadmos, that's why Zuko is my favorite too. I love the struggle and character growth he went through. I liked that Zuko isn't a Marty-Stu. He had problems, he wasn't always the best, he failed over and over again yet he never stopped trying. His journey was a hard one and that's why I like him so much. He earned everything he got in the end.

1/6/2011 . Edited 1/6/2011 #78
Amira Elizabeth

Ah, see now I am the other end of the spectrum so to speak. I appreciate Zuko, wouldn't want Avatar without him, appreciate and grasp the struggle, but he just doesn't grab me and never really has. Not like Aang. And I rarely gravitate towards characters like Aang so for him to make the impact he did on me is pretty unique. Aang for me was the emotional pull, the grab, the reason I wanted to keep tuning in. Seeing him struggle not only with the loss of his people, with being the Avatar, and with trying to handle the various ups and downs and mistakes he made along the way combined with just trying to grow up and be as normal as he could was interesting and endearing. Aang needing to hang onto his humanity was endearing. His growth as a character. Aang for me was the heart of the series. Like I said, I am rarely drawn to those types, but I winced, cried, laughed, and wanted nothing but a happy ending for that character.

1/6/2011 #79
thebloodfiend

For me it wasn't Aang that drew me into the show. It was actually Sokka. But the combination of the team as a whole was definitely the heart of the show for me. It was never Zuko -- although he made it interesting. I couldn't have watched season 2 without Azula or Toph though.

As for the EIP Amira, what sort apology do you think Katara owed Aang? I'm just wondering because while I think he owed her one, she did owe him more of an explanation than "I'm just confused." Cause that statement confused me too. What did she want his hair back? Did she secretly like Sokka, Toph, Suki, or Zuko? What was it, cause the war wasn't stopping her from liking Jet or Haru.

1/6/2011 #80
Marius Prime

As much as I badmouth Zuko, I do really like the character. However, I like him because of his flaws, not because I can ignore them so well, like many posters here.

One of the fundamental strengths of the series, I feel, is its ability to make the characters feel so very much like people. All of the main characters had their virtues and their flaws, the limits and complications of their backgrounds, and their experiences and lack thereof. Aang, we see constantly, so we're aware of his immense power, his personal strength, his cheerfulness and his wisdom. However, he's not exactly a Gary Stu. His youth and cheerful nature sometimes result in a lack of focus, so he wants to play instead of focusing on his responsibilities sometimes, particularly in the beginning. He has insecurities about romance. He wants to be a kid, not the Avatar, and in some ways, he really is. He makes genuine mistakes because of it. Zuko is even more messed up, but we know why, and can understand why he does what he does, even though it's really messed up. It's really amazing that his character development, as extreme as it is, is still believable.

I think that's why Mai and Ty Lee are as unpopular as they are. They seem like far weaker characters than they actually are, just due to the contrast. They're minor characters, and pretty well-developed for their role, but the depth of the other characters makes them seem so very bland.

This conversation seems to have deteriorated into civility while we weren't looking. Quick, somebody make nasty jokes about one of the two male leads. Either one - it really doesn't matter which.

1/6/2011 . Edited 1/6/2011 #81
thebloodfiend

Ty Lee isn't exactly unpopular like Mai is. She's more of fanboy bait for them to draw perverted pictures about. They did that for Katara for a while before the Beach came. Anyway, I don't hate Mai. She's a decent character, but I really don't like Maiko.

As for civility, it seems that once we all just understood the other's points, we were able to get along. But I can make two jabs right now for kicks. Or at least I would, but I can't think of anything good right now. Oedipus Complex and Whiny Emo kid are already overused.

1/6/2011 #82
Fullmetal Catalyst

He earned everything he got in the end.

Yes. "All hail Firelord Zuko" was the crowning moment for him, the public acknowledgement of "yes, you're finally here, and you did it the right way".

Aang for me was the heart of the series. Like I said, I am rarely drawn to those types, but I winced, cried, laughed, and wanted nothing but a happy ending for that character.

Indeed. He's the heart of the series for me too - just not alone. I have trouble separating my draw to Aang and my draw to Katara because, in so many ways, their growth is remarkably intertwined. It doesn't help that they're rarely apart. I wanted nothing but a happy ending for them, because after a certain point I couldn't really see a happy ending if it wasn't "them". I had a HUGE smile on my face at the final kiss, because they deserved it. As characters, Zuko grabs my mind for his arc, Aang and Katara my heart for their bond. So I guess I have "two" favorites. Meh.

It was actually Sokka.

Actually just saw "Sokka's Master" for the first time tonight...remarkably fun. He jumped several levels in my book.

One of the fundamental strengths of the series, I feel, is its ability to make the characters feel so very much like people.

This, this, and I s'pose this.

This conversation seems to have deteriorated into civility while we weren't looking. Quick, somebody make nasty jokes about one of the two male leads. Either one - it really doesn't matter which.

Aang is a jealous brat who has no right leading the show. He's ex-TREME-ly envious of everybody's ability to grow hair. He thought that due to his advanced age of 112 he couldn't grow his hair back, so he hated everybody having it, to the point where he tried to shave Appa (canon proof). When he grew hair, he was devastated and tried to run away, but realized it would be safer for his cause if he hid underneath the fuzz for the time being (more proof). He's a conniving, manipulative demigod whose sole purpose in romancing Katara was to snip away her loopies to make himself feel better.

Zuko is just sore that he can't lead the show. But why in hell would we let him lead? He's always shouting and making ridiculous noises because he thinks his uncle is ignoring him. Iroh IS ignoring him except when it suits his own ends. He turns Zuko and Zuko's Bottled Up Frustration on the motherland, causing him to lash out at people who love him, even challenging his devoted sister to multiple Agni Kais. Zuko thinks he's the man because he's doing it to return home to be able to talk with his father again, but really his family just sent him away because he wouldn't shut up. And his scar is on the wrong side. Idiot.

(...I can't do nasty about characters I like...apologies...)

1/6/2011 #83
Mrs Pettyfer

First of all, thebloodfield, your little icon cracks me up. Every time I see it I laugh and I have no idea what it is! lol What creature is that?

It's funny because the first time I saw Avatar, my boyfriend was watching it. I see this bald kid with arrows gliding through the air and I literally walked up to the screen and asked 'what the heck are you watching?' lol He forced me to watch the episode and I immediatly wanted to watch more. Not one specific character pulled me in, it was the story as a whole. What happened next? Sort of thoughts. I went out and bought all 3 series so I could watch them all, lol.

Haha Cadmos I loved your Aang and Zuko post. Aw Aang's hair! I loved it when he had hair. And Zuko going from calm to shouting always cracked me up. Him and Iroh together were great. I love them. Actually all the characters are great..even the bad guys. Azula, though crazy, is one of my favorites. She's the main villain of the series in my opinion. Even over Ozai. I feel like what's so great about the series is for me, even though it's Aang's story..he isn't the center because it's not just him..it's everyone in their little group. Like the elements in a way..how their each a piece of the whole.

1/6/2011 #84
Fullmetal Catalyst

Like the elements in a way..how their each a piece of the whole.

Well played. As for Azula, in terms of villain presence, she's like the Darth Vadar to Ozai's Palpatine ("Aang, I am your father." "???")

1/7/2011 #85
thebloodfiend

Mrs. Pettyfer, my icon is from Pan's Labyrinth by Guillermo Del Toro. It's called the Pale Man, a symbol of greed and materialism. Sort of all the negative traits of Saturn. It's definitely a movie worth watching, even more so than all of Avatar.

It wasn't necessarily the relationship of Katara and Aang that drew me in. I think Aang and Sokka are a pretty good team too, as well as Aang and Toph, and Sokka and Toph, etc. Like I said previously it's just the cast of amazing characters together. Plus, I didn't watch to watch iCarly.

1/7/2011 #86
Mrs Pettyfer

^Oh okay! Yeah I'll have to watch it sometime.

Toph is a badass..no question. She's probably my second favorite character. I loved when she taught Aang earthbending. They cracked me up. :P And omg, iCarly is on nick allll day I swear. Whenver I turn it on Nick for my brother it's always on. I miss the old school Nick shows like Doug and Rugrats.

1/7/2011 #87
thebloodfiend

I miss Rugrats too. That all Grown Up thing they replaced it with sucked. iCarly is ok at times, but Dan Schneider need to stop recycling his humor. Abuse and random stupidity does not a good sitcom make.

1/7/2011 #88
Marius Prime

iCarly is rubbish, and I can't believe they put it on TV for impressionable kids to watch.

1/7/2011 #89
thebloodfiend

I know right? I don't like watching it when my little brothers are around because they might emulate the behavior. Really I think people only watch it because they worship the actors. Jennette McCurdy has almost a cult following on here. You should check out the horrible Seddie fics -- Sam/Freddie -- fics on here. It makes me wish I didn't support the ship. But I don't like it enough to put it on my profile page.

1/7/2011 #90
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