Kataang or Zutara?
This argument has come up a lot, what are your opinions about Kataang and Zutara? Which pairing is more likely? Do you think they're age differences really matter? Everyone's invited! Keep it respectful, though.
New Follow Forum Follow Topic
Page 1 2 3 4 .. Last Next »
Severus Lawliet

I know I might get spammed or banned or hated because of this but...but I MUST say this!!! Let me tell you why...

The Ember Island Players. That and The Southern Raiders proves to me that Aang is just a whiny little kid (in the 3rd season, anyway). I have a rant a wrote for the Kataang in The Ember Island Players...I wrote it when I was angry so be warned...it's not very unharsh to Aangs behavior...

Why I Don't Support Kataang

I think that Aang is just too immature for a relationship at the moment. Not because of age, but because of actions. I really hate to say it, but lets be real here--Aang is the least mature character in the entire show next to Tom Tom.

He's a procrastinator and puts his beliefs in front of the entire world and his duty like a spoiled child. I would certainly kill a very evil (potential child molester) if I had the chance. And I dare you to argue, because Ozai burned his son alive, and the way he acted in the final showdown of the finale was beyond normal. Showing off your chest in front of a twelve year old boy and trying to attack and kill him, doesn't exactly help you escape the death penalty in any world I know of--magical or not.

I really started to dislike Aang in the episode, Ember Island Players. Apparently he thought that Katara's actor was expressing her feelings about him so he cornered Katara on the balcony and began to complain, and the thing that he said that really ticked me off was;

"We kissed at the invasion and I thought we were going to be together but we're not."

Okay, there are two things wrong with this, 1) YOU kissed her at the invasion. Not we, YOU. 2) I wasn't aware that a simple kiss gets people together. As I recal you have to work in a relationship. Not, "Smooch smooch, BOOM! Hey, we're together without putting any effort into our relationship at all!" *cough* Maiko *cough*.

Another thing that got on my nerves;

Katara: Aang, I don't know.

Aang: Why don't you know?

If she said she didn't know, that means that she wanted to think it over. So why on earth would you reply with a whiny comeback like, "why don't you know". It makes Aang look like a three year old asking his mommy,

"But why can't I have the ice cream now?" But yet and still Katara answers him.

Katara: (seriously) Because we're in the middle of a war and (folds her arms and looks towards the theatre) we have other things to worry about. This isn't the right time.

Aang: (Cut to a close up of an impatient Aang) Well, when is the right time?

DUDE! Take a hint for christs sake. He has the nerve to be impatient! I got the script, and this is what they are actually saying and doing.

Mom: Billy, you can't have the ice cream now.

Billy: But why mommy? Why can't I have it now?

This is what should have happened;

Katara: (seriously) Because we're in the middle of a war and (folds her arms and looks towards the theatre) we have other things to worry about. This isn't the right time.

Aang: (Cut to a close up of an understanding Aang) Oh, okay. I understand what you're saying. I should defeat the firelord first. I'll do that before I think about romance. It'll make it easier for both of us.

Katara: (smiling) I knew you'd understand, Aang

....Or something like that anyway... But does this happen? NO.

Katara: (Cut to a close up of Katara who is deep in thought) Aang, I'm sorry but right now, (she tugs at her hair and closes her eyes) I'm just a little confused. (Cut back to Aang who looks to the side. Cut to a side view of Katara as Aang's head appears on screen and he pecks her lips. Katara opens her eyes and takes a step back, shocked.)

And he has the nerve to kiss her after all of that. After all of what she just said. Aang should have really not done that. He just ignored Katara and everything she told him!

Billy ignores his mommy and opens the carton of ice cream. He sticks his hand in it.

Katara: (annoyed) I just said that I was confused. (Cut to a confused Aang. Cut back to a visibly displeased Katara) I'm going inside. (She walks off screen. Cut to an area outside the railing behind Aang as Katara runs off.)

Billy's mommy slaps his wrists.

Mom: Billy I told you NOT to do that! I'm going inside. No ice cream for you today.

Aang: (He turns his head towards the camera and raps his head several times) Argh! (He brings his head down to the railing) I'm such an idiot!

Yes you are an idiot. Aang didn't even say sorry. He could have followed her, apologized, and then went about his little egg headed buisiness, but he couldn't even do that. He just decided, "I might as well kiss you without any intentions that you wanted me to kiss you." And that was very wrong of him. It just shocked me that he didn't even bother to apologize.

And thats why I don't support Kataang. Because the episode that can be considered, the confession episode, he acted like a j*** all the way through it. Not trying to be overly harsh but god, take a hint and leave her alone. AND APOLOGIZE! I used to be a Kataanger. I really did. But how can I support a ship that lets Billy get his ice cream in the end, even if he didn't apologize to his mommy for sticking his hand in it?

Note : This isn't how I feel now, I was just really angry then. But I read it over and saw that it did have some really good points. What do you think? Am I spewing crap or do I have somewhat of an angle on this?

11/16/2010 . Edited 11/16/2010 #1
Mrs Pettyfer

Lol now I don't know if I agree with all of that, but I do agree that Ember Island Players realllly turned me off of Kataang even more than I was. Aang's jealousy did get on my nerves and he was a bit pushy. It just furthered my belief that he's simply too young for a relationship romance wise. And really, he's 12! lol He's a kid and deserves to have some fun without the stress of a relationship. He doesn't need to worry about tying the knot just yet. ;)

11/16/2010 #2
Severus Lawliet

I don't really agree either, I just wanted to post up the whole thing so you could see all of it's points.

11/16/2010 #3
Amira Elizabeth

Actually that whole post made me slightly ill. Or it could be that I am still recovering from major surgery. Who knows.

But I digress...

This comment is one I do want to address because I see it all the time:

"And really, he's 12! lol He's a kid and deserves to have some fun without the stress of a relationship."

He might be just 12, but he is NOT in a typical 12 -year old's situation. Nor is he a typical 12 year old. He is a kid and deserves fun, but he has been placed into the very adult role of being the Avatar, ending a war, and even dying for a cause. Those are not the typical things a 12 year old does. He has the weight of being a peacemaker, a diplomat, an arbiter, etc. on those young shoulders. He is not going to have a normal life. The fact he is interested in girls and relationships shows that he is still grounded in his humanity.

And a kiss at the end of the finale does not mean Aang and Katara are going to have a hot and heavy relationship or even think about marriage at that stage. Katara herself is pretty naive romantically. While I don't condone what Aang did in EIP, Katara herself was pretty annoying about the whole issue. She had spent 2 seasons flirting with him off and on and then when he is about to face the fight of his life, she can't even say: "I don't know what the feelings I have for you are yet, but I do care about you and think you are special." Several guy friends said hearing "I'm confused" from a girl you like with little explanation is like a knife in the gut.

11/17/2010 . Edited 11/17/2010 #4
Mrs Pettyfer

Aw what did you have surgery over? My dad's girlfriend just broke her arm and might have to have surgery. =(

I do want to reply that everything you mentioned about Aang in the first paragraph furthers my belief in why Aang shouldn't be in a relationship, yet. You're right..he isn't going to have a normal life which is why I think a relationship would be difficult. Especially with Katara, whom I feel like is more of a the type of person who would like to settle down in one place and start a family. Not at 14 obviously, lol but in a few years. That's just my opinion of her though. I think it would be hard for Aang to play the boyfriend role, and maybe even father role in the future, while rebuilding the nations after the war. The after math of a war is almost as hard as the war itself.

Aang might be mature for 12, but the fact that he thought because he kissed Katara before the eclipse and she didn't I don't know, push him away...meant they were going to be in a relationship just shows how young his mind still is. A kiss does not equal relationship, lol. And that thought process does seem more like a 12 year old level. I mean that kiss seemed more like 'if I die today, I at least want to have kissed you' kind of kiss. Not 'I want to be with you' kind of kiss. At least on Katara's part.

I wouldn't really say Katara flirted a lot with Aang actually. Like you said, she's pretty naive when it comes to romance and I'm not sure if she thought of the things she did as flirting. I agree, her character did annoy me a bit because some of her signals were a little mixed. But for example, during the Headband...a lot of people believe she was jealous of that girl because she liked Aang. To me, I thought she was jealous because Aang was showing attention to someone other than her. Aang was the first boy to really show Katara any attention...there were no boys really in her village. At least not when the show started. And when Aang finally acted like there was another girl in the world besides Katara, she got jealous. It could be because she liked him, or because she's selfish and didn't know how to handle it. Maybe both.

Katara's confusion in EIP and how it appeared to be a big deal...then it wasn't addressed and she suddenly kisses Aang in the finale didn't make sense to me. I still don't get that.

11/17/2010 #5
Severus Lawliet

Actually that whole post made me slightly ill. Or it could be that I am still recovering from major surgery. Who knows.

Hope your recovery goes well.

But I digress... This comment is one I do want to address because I see it all the time: "And really, he's 12! lol He's a kid and deserves to have some fun without the stress of a relationship."

Maybe there's a reason you see it all the time. It might be....true.

He might be just 12, but he is NOT in a typical 12 -year old's situation. Nor is he a typical 12 year old. He is a kid and deserves fun, but he has been placed into the very adult role of being the Avatar, ending a war, and even dying for a cause. Those are not the typical things a 12 year old does.

Riiight. Aang never lost his humanity. It was only in the finale was he snapped awake to the reality that he might have to do so, and when Yang Chen told him this he ignored her and didn't even consider losing it for the fate of the world. He found a trickety trick way out of it -- like he always does. Sigh. Anyway, (before I go into a rant about the suckiness of the finale and how it completely ruined Aangs character...) Yeah he's not a typical 12 year old but come on he's not mature for his age. He's not an adult. He doesn't act like an adult. That's why I like his character, he's a kid and he knows it.

He has the weight of being a peacemaker, a diplomat, an arbiter, etc. on those young shoulders. He is not going to have a normal life. The fact he is interested in girls and relationships shows that he is still grounded in his humanity.

Yeah, that's kind of obvious that he has the responsibility of an adult. But this doesn't mean he acts like one and/or deserves to be treated like one. It means he's a 12 year old with wayyy too much responsibility because Roku was a very very sucky avatar.

And a kiss at the end of the finale does not mean Aang and Katara are going to have a hot and heavy relationship or even think about marriage at that stage. Katara herself is pretty naive romantically. While I don't condone what Aang did in EIP, Katara herself was pretty annoying about the whole issue. She had spent 2 seasons flirting with him off and on and then when he is about to face the fight of his life, she can't even say: "I don't know what the feelings I have for you are yet, but I do care about you and think you are special."

I'm not going to say what I want to say on this. If I do, I'll just get you mad.

Several guy friends said hearing "I'm confused" from a girl you like with little explanation is like a knife in the gut.

100 Rachel Summers say hearing "I'm confused" from a guy you like with little explanation is like a knife in the gut. But that doesn't mean those Rachel Summers have the right to ignore that guy and kiss him anyway even though he said he's not sure he likes you like that (without being considered idiots).

11/18/2010 . Edited 11/18/2010 #6
pandora1225

I totally agree with the ember Island thing. Aang did get on my nerves ,but I liked the play it was funny.

Any ways i'm now having second thoughts about Kataang, No I'm just playing I still love Kataang. I Also think Aang was imature but I liked it. He is still just 12 , and boys muture so much slower than Girls. Since the other kids found out that he was the Avatar the other airbenders didn't want him to play any other games with them ,so maybe he missed playing and wanted to play. My opinion he knew when to be muture and when he could stop and just be a kid.

Kataang rocks and Zutara sucks!!!

1/19/2011 #7
TigerShadow

Kataang rocks and Zutara sucks!!!

That was...so profound...

Right up there with "Whip My Hair."

1/21/2011 #8
Fullmetal Catalyst

Right up there with "Whip My Hair."

:(

For someone born in this millenium the kid has an insane amount of swag. The song itself may not be terribly profound, but its mere presence suggests that ten years from now (assuming she avoids the pitfalls inherent in young talent) she'll be a star.

Oh, right, on-topic...um, yes, I think Aang deserves Katara. A more interesting question would be, does Katara deserve Aang? My favorite question would be, does anyone deserve to be with Zuko?

1/21/2011 #9
Mrs Pettyfer

A more interesting question would be, does Katara deserve Aang? My favorite question would be, does anyone deserve to be with Zuko?

I'm so glad you pointed these two out because this was where I struggled with Kataang and Maiko. Aang did so much to show how he felt towards Katara that it was painfully obvious. And I hate to say this but at times I found Katara a little Bella Swanish in the sense of sending mixed signals (perhaps unknowingly) and selfishness. I'm not saying Katara is entirely selfish, just that she strikes me as the girl who thinks 'I'm not going to date you but I don't want anyone else to either.' Just a little bit.

So does Katara deserve Aang? No...not without some explaination for her actions..especially in the Ember Island Players. I don't like the idea of her basically shooting him down..saying she's confused and isn't sure what she wants..and then kisses him without explaination. Aang deserves more than that.

As for Maiko, honestly Zuko wasn't that nice toward Mai at times. Granted, the entire time he was back in the FN he was conflicted about what he did to Iroh...so I blame the writers for putting him in a relationship because he was pretty messed up at the time. And he wasn't the type to lean on a girl for support when going through rough times..he faced them head on and alone. So I didn't see the point of Maiko to be honest.

So when Mai saved Zuko I thought..why are you doing this?! What did he do to deserve that kind of act? The answer I'm sure many will say is 'Because she loves him!' Well okay, why does she love him? Which brings me to does Mai deserve Zuko?

It sort of bothers me the way Mai followed Azula like a puppet and had virtually no opinion on the war. Zuko stood up to his nation because he knew they were wrong. Did Mai think they were wrong? Or did she just do what she did for Zuko? That just made her a little too Zuko-centric in my opinion. I guess I wish she would have stood up to Azula for herself rather than for Zuko.

1/21/2011 . Edited 1/21/2011 #10
TigerShadow

For someone born in this millenium the kid has an insane amount of swag. The song itself may not be terribly profound, but its mere presence suggests that ten years from now (assuming she avoids the pitfalls inherent in young talent) she'll be a star.

I didn't say she didn't have talent or that she doesn't have the stardom capabilities; she is quite talented. However, I remain of the opinion that while "Whip My Hair" is a well done song as far as mechanics go, the lyrics are basically fluff.

Oh, right, on-topic...um, yes, I think Aang deserves Katara. A more interesting question would be, does Katara deserve Aang? My favorite question would be, does anyone deserve to be with Zuko?

I find this a little ridiculous at this point. We discuss deserving a person as though they are a prize to be earned. The fact is that Aang doesn't "deserve" Katara, Katara doesn't "deserve" Aang or Zuko, and Zuko doesn't "deserve" Katara or Mai. You cannot "deserve" a person; you can deserve their love, but the topic title wasn't specific enough to point this out.

Then again, of course, I'm a lunkhead with an opinion, so what do I know?

1/22/2011 . Edited 1/22/2011 #11
Fullmetal Catalyst

You cannot "deserve" a person; you can deserve their love, but the topic title wasn't specific enough to point this out.

Oh. I thought that's what we were talking about, hah. I should know by now that ambiguity on the Internet is just asking for misunderstanding. Oops.

Yes. The lyrics are fluff. I just figured there were even less profound songs from much less likable "talent". As I'm sure is quite obvious, I'm a bit of a nit-picker at times.

I'm so glad you pointed these two out because this was where I struggled with Kataang and Maiko. Aang did so much to show how he felt towards Katara that it was painfully obvious. And I hate to say this but at times I found Katara a little Bella Swanish in the sense of sending mixed signals (perhaps unknowingly) and selfishness. I'm not saying Katara is entirely selfish, just that she strikes me as the girl who thinks 'I'm not going to date you but I don't want anyone else to either.' Just a little bit.

So does Katara deserve Aang? No...not without some explaination for her actions..especially in the Ember Island Players. I don't like the idea of her basically shooting him down..saying she's confused and isn't sure what she wants..and then kisses him without explaination. Aang deserves more than that.

I saw Katara as more "I'm not going to date you because I'm afraid I'm going to lose you" than anything Bell-ish (who is so incredibly not confused about what she wants that her confusion confuses me). Katara's quite selfish, but even if she consciously acknowledged it I don't think she'd change her actions. She's remarkably stubborn about protecting people, and this includes herself. Her dad hurt her by leaving - it wasn't until the Awakening that she is willing to tell him (and only then after she may have lost Aang). She'll always regret never telling Aang she loved him if he dies, but she doesn't know this. She only "knows" that she has a LOT of feeling for a boy who may not live out the summer. She can't even admit it to herself; she says she isn't sure because she really isn't. While the war exists, her love can't (consciously, that is), because if the battle goes ill she will shatter.

1/22/2011 . Edited 1/22/2011 #12
Mrs Pettyfer

Katara being Bella-ish was more so how Bella treated Jacob..not Edward. :P

She's remarkably stubborn about protecting people, and this includes herself.

I do agree with that. At times she seemed almost overprotective..which is a trait that thoroughly annoys me with characters. That's a personal thing though. :P

1/22/2011 #13
Alactricity

I for one can't believe we're comparing Avatar to Twilight. x____o

1/23/2011 #14
Amira Elizabeth

Thank you, Cadmos. I always thought Katara's inability to express her feelings fully was because of the fear. She did keep a wall around herself. I think nearly losing Aang in Ba Sing Se really did a number on her because everyone (with the exception of Sokka) has either left her or died because of the war and the Fire Nation.

1/23/2011 #15
Fullmetal Catalyst

I for one can't believe we're comparing Avatar to Twilight. x____o

Many aspects of Twilight are vague enough for its specific universe that you can compare them to just about anything. Regardless of what I may or may not feel about the books, the fact is that they appeal to a LOT of people simply because you can put so many different things (from relationships to personal desires to characters to anticlimactic anti-fights) into Twilight's shoes and see the connection.

1/25/2011 #16
Severus Lawliet

I totally agree with the ember Island thing. Aang did get on my nerves ,but I liked the play it was funny.

The play was sort of funny, and it was a wonderful recap episode.

Any ways i'm now having second thoughts about Kataang, No I'm just playing I still love Kataang. I Also think Aang was imature but I liked it. He is still just 12 , and boys muture so much slower than Girls.

That is very true, but I don't like it when this is used as an excuse. I expect people to act their age, gender out of the question. I know not all 12 year old boys are the most mature in the world, but this is exactly why I don't believe Aang is necessarily right for a relationship right now.

Since the other kids found out that he was the Avatar the other airbenders didn't want him to play any other games with them ,so maybe he missed playing and wanted to play.

That's also true, but what does playing have to do with a serious relationship? I mean, personally, I love to pity and sympathize with characters -- but this statement doesn't have anything to do with why his immaturity in the situation is okay or not.

My opinion he knew when to be muture and when he could stop and just be a kid.

I don't think this was true. He was always having to be reminded by everyone that he needed to focus. He was always goofing off. This is okay, but you can't have it both ways. Either he's "just a 12 year old boy" or he's super mature. Kataang rocks and Zutara sucks!!!

Geez, why'd you need to add that?

2/3/2011 #17
Severus Lawliet

Kataang rocks and Zutara sucks!!! That was...so profound... Right up there with "Whip My Hair."

Sarcasm, or what? I dun geddit :(

2/3/2011 #18
Severus Lawliet

Right up there with "Whip My Hair." :( For someone born in this millenium the kid has an insane amount of swag. The song itself may not be terribly profound, but its mere presence suggests that ten years from now (assuming she avoids the pitfalls inherent in young talent) she'll be a star.

Lol, I listened to this song. I wasn't impressed, but I wasn't un-impressed either. Weird. I thought it was ok, and I wouldn't be disappointed if she got famous in a few years. God, Willow looks so much like Jaden...every time I see her I keep seeing Dre from Karate Kid...it's just weird O.o Oh, right, on-topic...um, yes, I think Aang deserves Katara. A more interesting question would be, does Katara deserve Aang?

I always get annoyed at things like this for some reason. Don't ask me why, it's just something that clicks. Why on earth wouldn't she deserve Aang? She never really went looking for Aang, wasn't he the one pursuing her? She's never done anything really awful to him (besides telling him to shut his airhole in the 1st season, but she apologized) that it should be questioned of whether she deserves him or not. Sure, she could have been a bit quick with her answer in the 3rd season, but lets get real here -- she wasn't the one driving the interest of a relationship with him to begin with.

My favorite question would be, does anyone deserve to be with Zuko?

I don't know what you're getting at here, actually. Are you saying that no-one is good enough for Zuko, or Zuko isn't good enough for anyone? I'm guessing the latter, but I don't know. On the plus side, I thought we were discussing Aang? When did Zuko come so deep into the equation?

That's all.

2/3/2011 #19
Alactricity

People keep saying "Oh, Aang is so immature. He's the least mature character in the show," and I happen to disagree completely. Just because somebody enjoys having fun and playing games doesn't make them immature. Does no one remember Southern Raiders? He demonstrated more maturity than both Katara AND Zuko, both of whom are older.

2/3/2011 #20
Severus Lawliet

I'm so glad you pointed these two out because this was where I struggled with Kataang and Maiko. Aang did so much to show how he felt towards Katara that it was painfully obvious. And I hate to say this but at times I found Katara a little Bella Swanish in the sense of sending mixed signals (perhaps unknowingly) and selfishness. I'm not saying Katara is entirely selfish, just that she strikes me as the girl who thinks 'I'm not going to date you but I don't want anyone else to either.' Just a little bit.

Hmm, this has never bothered me. I hate Bella, and the reason I hated her was because she was sort of stringing Jacob along. Bella was always running to hang out with Jacob, and then spinning around and telling him they couldn't be together. Plus, she was so stand-offish whenever he was trying to understand about Edward. She is also a whiny brat who never appreciates anything anyone does for her. Katara isn't one of my most favorite people, but I wouldn't compare her to Bella. That's mean.

As for the 'I'm not going to date you but I don't want anyone else either' thing, so what? I don't have a problem with that. You can not like someone but not neoclassical be interested in anyone else. Not saying that Katara doesn't entirely not-like Aang, because I do believe that she's thrown SOME mixed signals, but not many at all.

So does Katara deserve Aang? No...not without some explaination for her actions..especially in the Ember Island Players. I don't like the idea of her basically shooting him down..saying she's confused and isn't sure what she wants..and then kisses him without explaination. Aang deserves more than that.

She doesn't deserve him, no. But I don't believe that she really WANTED him, that's what the problem is. She said she didn't know what she wanted, and I think she was right. She WAS confused, and no confused person should EVER be in a relationship. But as for the kiss without the explanation, anybody deserves better than that -- but I didn't exactly see Aang protesting. Or questioning. It looked like a mutual kiss too, not she-on-them, more of they-on-them if you will.

As for Maiko, honestly Zuko wasn't that nice toward Mai at times. Granted, the entire time he was back in the FN he was conflicted about what he did to Iroh...so I blame the writers for putting him in a relationship because he was pretty messed up at the time. And he wasn't the type to lean on a girl for support when going through rough times..he faced them head on and alone. So I didn't see the point of Maiko to be honest.

Woohoo! I agree, Zuko acted like such a b*** to Mai and then she forgave him again. I think Mai deserves better, and I think Zuko should sit in a little relationship-time-out for a while. Obviously he didn't care that much about Mai if he left her like that. In the scenario of Katara-dump-Aang-for-Zuko and Zuko-dump-Mai-for-Katara, I ship AangxMai. I like them without the circumstances, but really, they'd never look at each other twice without those things.

So when Mai saved Zuko I thought..why are you doing this?! What did he do to deserve that kind of act? The answer I'm sure many will say is 'Because she loves him!' Well okay, why does she love him? Which brings me to does Mai deserve Zuko?

Yesh, very true. There really was no good reason for her to care about him at that point, since he practically proved that he didn't care about her and barely tried to say otherwise.

It sort of bothers me the way Mai followed Azula like a puppet and had virtually no opinion on the war. Zuko stood up to his nation because he knew they were wrong. Did Mai think they were wrong? Or did she just do what she did for Zuko? That just made her a little too Zuko-centric in my opinion. I guess I wish she would have stood up to Azula for herself rather than for Zuko.

Exactly. My personal opinion is that she did it for Zuko, and not because it was right, which is why I don't ship Maiko. We're not given any valiad reasons as to why they should be together besides some broken child-hood crush that's only mentioned once or twice as some crappy excuse for buildup. Mai standing up to Azula on her own, maybe using Zuko as a reference for her argument, I would have been okay with that. But the fact remains is that there is really no good reason to believe that Mai thinks the war is wrong, learns anything about justice and morality, or pretty much does anything useful besides breaking Zuko out of jail -- which I've deducted she did for her own gain.

Mrs. Pettyfer, you have some interesting takes on things.

2/3/2011 . Edited 2/3/2011 #21
Severus Lawliet

I find this a little ridiculous at this point. We discuss deserving a person as though they are a prize to be earned. The fact is that Aang doesn't "deserve" Katara, Katara doesn't "deserve" Aang or Zuko, and Zuko doesn't "deserve" Katara or Mai. You cannot "deserve" a person; you can deserve their love, but the topic title wasn't specific enough to point this out.

Oh no! That's not what I meant at all!! When I say "deserve" I mean deserving to be loved by that person, or deserving to be in a relationship with them. For instance, the Joker didn't deserve Harley, because he treated her badly. When I say that I mean he didn't deserve her love and devotion, because he abused her. I just kind of simplify it...sorry if it's unclear! Oh no! Then again, of course, I'm a lunkhead with an opinion, so what do I know?

Don't feel bad. I'm a lunkhead with an opinion too! YAY!

2/3/2011 #22
Severus Lawliet

People keep saying "Oh, Aang is so immature. He's the least mature character in the show," and I happen to disagree completely. Just because somebody enjoys having fun and playing games doesn't make them immature. Does no one remember Southern Raiders? He demonstrated more maturity than both Katara AND Zuko, both of whom are older.

That's not called being mature. That's called lecturing and being insensitive. He could have attempted to understand about her mom, but instead all he did was claim that he had tried to and lecture her again about being angry. Hmm, I wonder if he would have been so calm if he knew the location guys that killed Monk Gyatso? I think not.

The only person who had a right to try and tell Katara not to be angry was Sokka, and that's because he completed understood what had happened and felt the same pain.

2/3/2011 . Edited 2/3/2011 #23
Severus Lawliet

I saw Katara as more "I'm not going to date you because I'm afraid I'm going to lose you" than anything Bell-ish (who is so incredibly not confused about what she wants that her confusion confuses me). Katara's quite selfish, but even if she consciously acknowledged it I don't think she'd change her actions. She's remarkably stubborn about protecting people, and this includes herself. Her dad hurt her by leaving - it wasn't until the Awakening that she is willing to tell him (and only then after she may have lost Aang). She'll always regret never telling Aang she loved him if he dies, but she doesn't know this. She only "knows" that she has a LOT of feeling for a boy who may not live out the summer. She can't even admit it to herself; she says she isn't sure because she really isn't. While the war exists, her love can't (consciously, that is), because if the battle goes ill she will shatter.

This is an interesting thought. I actually agree.

2/3/2011 #24
Alactricity

That's not called being mature. That's called lecturing and being insensitive. He could have attempted to understand about her mom, but instead all he did was claim that he had tried to and lecture her again about being angry. Hmm, I wonder if he would have been so calm if he knew the location guys that killed Monk Gyatso? I think not.

The only person who had a right to try and tell Katara not to be angry was Sokka, and that's because he completed understood what had happened and felt the same pain.

I don't agree. I do, however, agree with what Aang was saying. He wasn't doing it in malicious attempt. He wasn't doing it to be spiteful, or a know-it-all. He gave Katara helpful advice, and she and Zuko mocked him for it, and then pretty much took his bison.

... And he DOES know the guys that killed Monk Gyatso. It's a little place called the Fire Nation.

2/3/2011 #25
Severus Lawliet

I don't agree. I do, however, agree with what Aang was saying. He wasn't doing it in malicious attempt. He wasn't doing it to be spiteful, or a know-it-all. He gave Katara helpful advice, and she and Zuko mocked him for it, and then pretty much took his bison.

He might not have been trying to be like a know-it-all, but somehow he always does with the wonderful advice that he never actually follows himself. In the desert when that giant bee captures Momo and Aang catches up, is he so peace-loving and live-preserving then? I still think not. When he meets the guy that kidnapped Appa, he wants to kill him. He says so. The others have to stop him, and only then does he realize his fault. Ironically, Katara is the one to pull him out of the Avatar state that time.

Aang gave her the Bison. She didn't take it. Yes, Zuko mocked Aang, but (not only was it hilarious) but Aang sort of deserved it in a way. You can at least attempt to sound the tiniest bit sympathetic when talking to a girl about her dead mother.

... And he DOES know the guys that killed Monk Gyatso. It's a little place called the Fire Nation.

I find this ridiculously stupid. The whole firenation didn't kill Aang's people. That's like saying the whole firenation kidnapped the water tribe. You can't always blame the firenation for everything. 100 or so of the firenation's soldiers, under the control of FireLord Sozin, killed Gyatso. Not the little place called the firenation. All of Germany didn't cause the Holocaust. Just Hitler and lots of sick Nazi's.

2/3/2011 #26
Alactricity

He might not have been trying to be like a know-it-all, but somehow he always does with the wonderful advice that he never actually follows himself. In the desert when that giant bee captures Momo and Aang catches up, is he so peace-loving and live-preserving then? I still think not. When he meets the guy that kidnapped Appa, he wants to kill him. He says so. The others have to stop him, and only then does he realize his fault. Ironically, Katara is the one to pull him out of the Avatar state that time.

Exactly! What did his blind rage accomplish? Nothing!

Aang gave her the Bison. She didn't take it. Yes, Zuko mocked Aang, but (not only was it hilarious) but Aang sort of deserved it in a way. You can at least attempt to sound the tiniest bit sympathetic when talking to a girl about her dead mother.

Aang: "How do you think I felt about the sandbenders when they stole Appa? How do you think I felt about the Fire Nation when I found out what happened to my people?" --- Sympathy.

Sokka: Katara, she was my Mother too. But I think Aang might be right. --- Even Sokka agreed.

And I don't think it was funny at all. They mocked his culture. I think it was rude.

Aang: (Aang & Sokka climb over the rock) So you were just going to take Appa anyway?

Katara: Yes.

I find this ridiculously stupid. The whole firenation didn't kill Aang's people. That's like saying the whole firenation kidnapped the water tribe. You can't always blame the firenation for everything. 100 or so of the firenation's soldiers, under the control of FireLord Sozin, killed Gyatso. Not the little place called the firenation. All of Germany didn't cause the Holocaust. Just Hitler and lots of sick Nazi's.

While I appreciate you finding my comment "ridiculously stupid," I didn't mean all the Fire Nation mobbed the Air Temples and little children murdered each other. I meant that it was the Fire Nation army that caused the genocide of his people. He could easily take his anger out on them.

2/3/2011 #27
Fullmetal Catalyst

WHOA this thread progressed swiftly. Time to catch up. I'm going to answer most of the last few posts so...sorry, but another long one incoming.

My favorite question would be, does anyone deserve to be with Zuko?

I don't know what you're getting at here, actually. Are you saying that no-one is good enough for Zuko, or Zuko isn't good enough for anyone? I'm guessing the latter, but I don't know. On the plus side, I thought we were discussing Aang? When did Zuko come so deep into the equation?

Actually, I wasn't saying anything. I was simply trying to expand the debate to include Zuko so he didn't feel left out. However, if I was suggesting something, I suppose it would have been that Zuko was too good for anyone. Zuko is my favorite character - I'll never say that he's not good enough for something unless he really, really isn't.

That's not called being mature. That's called lecturing and being insensitive. He could have attempted to understand about her mom, but instead all he did was claim that he had tried to and lecture her again about being angry.

I suggest you read up on the recent discussion about this in the other thread. Attempted to understand? I don't mean to be rude, but Katara would like to have a word with you. Katara: "Thanks for understanding, Aang." You're welcome to your opinion, but Katara's opinion matters more than any of ours, and she seems to think Aang understands. If you're referring to the daytime encounter, when Katara gives him a malicious, condescending grin and says, "you wouldn't understand", consider that she also tells Sokka that he didn't love their mother and apply that to her frame of mind. I'm not going to include any other part of my argument from the other thread because it was long.

As for "lecturing" (and trying to talk someone down from an icy rage is NOT lecturing, by the way): would you say the alternative was to go along with her? To allow compassionate Katara to destroy herself by killing an old coward in cold blood?

Hmm, I wonder if he would have been so calm if he knew the location guys that killed Monk Gyatso? I think not.

Probably not. But I don't think anyone's saying that she was wrong to be enraged or that Aang would never lose control. That's the point. When someone's dark side begins to take over, do you stand aside and let them commit unspeakable acts in the name of revenge, or do you remind them who they are and attempt to bring them back to the light? This event in TSR does NOT occur in a vacuum - Katara has done the same thing for Aang on multiple occasions.

The only person who had a right to try and tell Katara not to be angry was Sokka, and that's because he completed understood what had happened and felt the same pain.

Check the other thread. If you think Aang has never felt pain and rage on the same level, then you are mistaken, and if you'd like I will draw several instances from the show where he has been taken over by it.

He gave Katara helpful advice, and she and Zuko mocked him for it, and then pretty much took his bison.

To be fair, she then accepts what he's saying. Zuko is the one who mocks his beliefs because these beliefs don't line up with his own idea of justice. For the record, Zuko's idea of justice does not make him a worse person than anyone else...but his justice is not what Katara needs.

... And he DOES know the guys that killed Monk Gyatso. It's a little place called the Fire Nation.

This isn't entirely valid. The guys who killed Monk Gyatso died at least half a century ago. Their kids are probably dead, too. The reason he cools down from his rage is not that he has no way to strike back - because, frankly, when you're controlled by pain there is ALWAYS someone to strike against, as Katara shows in TSR - but that this all-consuming rage is not who he is (which actually I think you said, so my apologies). Katara knows this (even though they've only been together for a week, tops) and tries to talk him down, and succeeds.

In fact, she uses her own experience with her mother to do so. Katara directly compares Aang's loss of Gyatso to her loss of her mother. I will provide quotes and a scene description if asked. Given the direction of this debate, I recommend this be taken into account.

He might not have been trying to be like a know-it-all, but somehow he always does with the wonderful advice that he never actually follows himself. In the desert when that giant bee captures Momo and Aang catches up, is he so peace-loving and live-preserving then? I still think not. When he meets the guy that kidnapped Appa, he wants to kill him. He says so. The others have to stop him, and only then does he realize his fault. Ironically, Katara is the one to pull him out of the Avatar state that time.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here. It's not, by any stretch of the imagination, "ironic" that Katara pulls him out of the Avatar State - that's the kind of person she is. Compassionate, caring, generally empathetic and open-hearted/minded despite a degree of selfishness. As far as the "guy who kidnapped Appa" goes, I think you're confusing Aang, the young Airbender, with Aang, the cosmic demigod. Yes, there's a difference. Aang's duality (by the gods, I'm using this word too often) is one of the primary supports on which the show was built.

Aang gave her the Bison. She didn't take it. Yes, Zuko mocked Aang, but (not only was it hilarious) but Aang sort of deserved it in a way. You can at least attempt to sound the tiniest bit sympathetic when talking to a girl about her dead mother.

Zuko isn't mocking Aang as much as he's mocking Aang's beliefs. The peaceful, loving, Buddhist-influenced beliefs of a dead culture...a people that his own family (great-grandfather?) obliterated. It's in real good taste, to be sure. I'm not sure what your intent was, but the words you typed essentially state that Aang, because he tries to prevent Katara from doing something that will tear her very soul (if you can excuse a Harry Potter reference), "sort of deserved" to have the kind-hearted beliefs of his spiritual people intentionally mocked by the descendant of the man who ensured their extermination. In light of the possibility that their peaceful, near-pacifistic beliefs may have assisted in that extermination, and in light of the FACT that these beliefs are one of two reasons Aang accepts Zuko as a person in "Western Air Temple"...forgive me if I see something wrong with this statement. If this wasn't your intent, then I recommend you choose your words more carefully.

You are correct, Aang lent her Appa. He was right to do so - and she was right to request him (though attempting to steal him in the night is what Alactricity was referring to, methinks).

I find this ridiculously stupid. The whole firenation didn't kill Aang's people. That's like saying the whole firenation kidnapped the water tribe. You can't always blame the firenation for everything. 100 or so of the firenation's soldiers, under the control of FireLord Sozin, killed Gyatso.

"ridiculously stupid" may or may not have been appropriate, but your point is spot on. I would like to add further that the statement was written rather similar to Jet's attitude, which I think few would agree was the appropriate path to travel down.

Exactly! What did his blind rage accomplish? Nothing!

I'm chuckling over here. You said it way better than I did and in fewer words :p . Not to mention, the quote to which you're responding uses an event that happened months before Katara's revenge field trip. I expect Aang to break his own code when he's not himself. And then you again say it well re: the sympathy business. I'd forgotten Aang's words in the daytime discussion.

While I appreciate you finding my comment "ridiculously stupid," I didn't mean all the Fire Nation mobbed the Air Temples and little children murdered each other. I meant that it was the Fire Nation army that caused the genocide of his people. He could easily take his anger out on them.

Summerz was a tad aggressive, but the point is correct. Even the Fire Nation army...well, the ones who killed Gyatso are dead. Their children are probably dead too. Aang has no reasonable target for his rage - as if revenge could ever be truly reasonable to him.

2/3/2011 #28
Amira Elizabeth

He might not have been trying to be like a know-it-all, but somehow he always does with the wonderful advice that he never actually follows himself. In the desert when that giant bee captures Momo and Aang catches up, is he so peace-loving and live-preserving then? I still think not. When he meets the guy that kidnapped Appa, he wants to kill him. He says so. The others have to stop him, and only then does he realize his fault. Ironically, Katara is the one to pull him out of the Avatar state that time.

If the show had been plotted with TSR first and the other eps following it, I would say you have a point. But it wasn't and because the eps where Aang did rage out came before TSR, he knew what he was talking about. He knew what it was like to be so consumed with rage that nothing else mattered. Not even his friends. When Appa was stolen he snapped and yelled and then shut himself off emotionally around those that cared about him. And that is precisely what she was doing. All she felt was the anger and hatred. She wanted revenge and to hunt this guy down so badly she was willing to hurt the two people she cared about the most.

He was trying to keep her from going down a path he knew would harm her. He knew she needed to go find the man and confront him, but he didn't want her to go on the journey not thinking clearly.

In the episode "The Avatar State" Aang and Katara are on the balcony and he is deciding whether to go into the Avatar State for General Fong. Katara says the following:

"Do you remember when we were at the air temple and you found Monk Gyatso's skeleton? It must have been so horrible and traumatic for you. I saw you get so upset that you weren't even you anymore. I'm not saying the Avatar state doesn't have incredible and helpful power. But you have to understand, for the people who love you, watching you be in that much rage and pain is really scary."

And I can't help but think of that scene when the issue of Aang talking to Katara in TSR comes up. Watching her be in that much rage and pain for him must have been scary. And he didn't want her to do something that would change her irreparably.

Yes, Zuko mocked Aang, but (not only was it hilarious) but Aang sort of deserved it in a way.

No he didn't. And especially not from Zuko. Zuko was being small-minded and immature. And it was a behavior we had seen before from him. He had mocked or verbally lashed out at his uncle when Zuko couldn't or didn't want to understand what Iroh was trying to say.

You can at least attempt to sound the tiniest bit sympathetic when talking to a girl about her dead mother.

He was sympathetic. So was Sokka. And when she wasn't hearing what she wanted to hear, she bit their heads off. Trying to get her to not go off so bent on revenge and in so much rage showed just how much Aang did care about her and her mother's death. Do you think Kya would have wanted to see her 14 year old daughter take a life in revenge?

2/3/2011 . Edited 2/3/2011 #29
Alactricity

Okay, okay, I concede. Aang has no one to destroy with hypothetical revenge.

2/3/2011 #30
Page 1 2 3 4 .. Last Next »
Forum Moderators: LadyLore3 ScatterSunshine50, moaaa, TheLadyBlackhawk
Rules:
  • Forums are not to be used to post stories.
  • All forum posts must be suitable for teens.
  • The owner and moderators of this forum are solely responsible for the content posted within this area.
  • All forum abuse must be reported to the moderators.
Membership Length: 2+ years 1 year 6+ months 1 month 2+ weeks new member