Kataang or Zutara?
This argument has come up a lot, what are your opinions about Kataang and Zutara? Which pairing is more likely? Do you think they're age differences really matter? Everyone's invited! Keep it respectful, though.
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moaaa

This will be a debate. Not an argument. I hate seeing bashing, especially when it's of another person. Remember that this IS a cartoon series and that we shan't start a riot just to get our point across.

A Zutara moment could be when Jun insinuated that they were dating, and they heatedly denied it. I didn't see disgust, just, "They can't know." Like, I'd rather bite off my hand then have them and everyone know. Sometimes, when you're in a situation like that, you deny first, and react later. Another one could be when Zuko opened his eyes from the lightning. I don't know about anyone else, but I saw something different in their eyes, mainly Katara's. Not because of the tears, but the pure emotion in them.

Personally, I didn't see many Kataang moments. What I saw was a bunch of awkward conversations and a crush. And a kiss here and there, two of them by surprise. (That just seems like something important to me, like Katara never really had a say in when and where they kissed, except that last one.)

If that last paragraph sounds harsh, forgive me, please.

xxEchelonAtHeartxx

11/14/2011 #1
Amira Elizabeth

Kataang moments:

The Fortuneteller - when Katara makes the realization that Aang might her "powerful bender."

The Cover of Two Lovers - Their kiss in the cave and flirting.

City of Walls and Secrets - Aang telling Katara she looks beautiful and her blushing in response.

The Earth King - At the end of the episode Aang tries to tell Katara, but gets interrupted. She kisses him on the cheek.

The Guru/Crossroads of Destiny - Aang saying aloud he loves her, Aang making the heartbreaking decision to "give her up" (you could just hear it in his voice - "I'm sorry, Katara"), her holding him and sobbing, her healing him and then him waking up and smiling up at her. The obvious emotion in her eyes at the sight of him alive and then her clutching him close.

DoBS - Their kiss on the submarine, her comforting him after the battle

EIP - Their conversation on the balcony

The Finale - Their kiss, Katara looking up at Aang with pride and love, Katara worrying about Aang to Zuko

The Headband - The dance scene, Katara's jealousy, their flirting

And I am sure there are more that some other people might see as Kataang moments. To some these might not seem like moments, but I see them as the progression. Throughout the series I could see Aang and Katara growing into something more than friends.

To be honest, I don't understand how folks can see "Zutara" moments and yet deny or not see the Kataang ones. Even if you don't like the ship, they were there.

11/14/2011 #2
Mrs Pettyfer

Well, I think what constitutes "a moment" is going to be very subjective. I consider "a moment" to be a connection between two characters/individuals or a mutual understanding. Cadmos can probably define "a moment" better than me, but there it is, haha. I think Katara shares many moments with both Aang and Zuko. Not necessarily romantic moments, but moments none the less. Do "moments" have to be strictly romantic? I don't think so.

First two that pop into my mind is the kiss between Aang and Katara at the end. Obviously. With Zuko and Katara, the caves when she touches his scar. Both scenes, if I remember, are even captured in a moment-like fashion.

11/14/2011 #3
moaaa

I do see them, because, they most definitely are there. I just don't really consider them moments that would really constitute something else.

I disagree on the Fortuneteller one when she realizes that her powerful bender might be Aang. Katara was obsessed witht hat Fortuneteller, so she obviously believed anything and everything that she said, so when Aang presented the possibility, the wheels in her head starts turning. Granted, I'd do/think the exact same thing, but it'd honestly just be a fleeting though. I don't know about you though.

The Earth King - I think at most how Katara would have reacted was blush and tell him that, "They have more important things to worry about.". I don't think she would have revealed her undying love for him.

The Guru/Crossroads of Destiny -- Touché.

Ember Island Players - I distinctly remember her telling him that she was confused and then yelling at him for being..I guess the word is pushy.

Day Of Black Sun, The Finale - The comfort/worry thing, it could be chalked up to brotherly love.

The Headband - I honestly didn't see much flirting on Katara's part but maybe that calls for a refresher of the episode for me.

City Of Walls And Secrets - I think anyone would blush if someone is like, "You're beautiful.". But you are right. That could have been something besides modesty.

moments none the less. Do "moments" have to be strictly romantic? I don't think so.

I agree.

xxEchelonAtHeartxx

11/14/2011 #4
Fullmetal Catalyst

This will be a debate. Not an argument. I hate seeing bashing, especially when it's of another person. Remember that this IS a cartoon series and that we shan't start a riot just to get our point across.

Before I move on to points, I'd like to declare that I'm taking this to heart. First and foremost, if you're viewing this forum and you're not trolling, you're probably a pretty big fan of the show. This makes us all big fans of the show. So don't let a little thing like adolescent romance get in the way of the fact that we all like the same story.

Secondly, I won't bash, EVER, but I'm not going to hold back on if I disagree with a point. Don't hold back on mine, either. If you disagree strongly, shred my points. But SMACK them, don't poke at them with cotton swabs.

A Zutara moment could be when Jun insinuated that they were dating, and they heatedly denied it. I didn't see disgust, just, "They can't know." Like, I'd rather bite off my hand then have them and everyone know. Sometimes, when you're in a situation like that, you deny first, and react later.

Does seem age-appropriate for them. However, Jun has proven to be a character who does this for kicks. She said something extremely similar to Zuko back in Season 1 (during Bato of the Water Tribe, I think) when there was no chance of anything resembling even neutrality, let alone friendship, let alone romance. It's just who Jun is, arguably backed up by the fact that Toph admires Jun and also pokes fun at Katara's love-life. Furthermore, there would need to be other moments building as well as obvious signs of a crush for this to work.

Another one could be when Zuko opened his eyes from the lightning. I don't know about anyone else, but I saw something different in their eyes, mainly Katara's. Not because of the tears, but the pure emotion in them.

Of all the instances you could've brought up, I would have called this the most likely Zutara moment. I personally think that romance actually cheapens it a little, but it's great any way you look at it. There really is a lot of emotion between them. I'm tempted to make the Schachter-Singer argument now that it's been brought up in the other thread, but I'd rather simply say that it comes in the same episode as both canon couple kisses, which I simply can't ignore. However, I posted on this scene a while back and I'll rehash it here:

So many things going on. Zuko's finally gotten himself under control, mastered himself after his encounter with the dragons. Azula is frustrated, frightened, unable to shake her silent, immoveable brother no matter how much she leaps around. Then the jump, the culmination of Zuko's arc. He doesn't hesitate. He just jumps. Did he mean to fail at redirecting the lightning? Of course not, but it was always a heavy risk, one he took without a second thought.

We get a sense of how far they've come. Katara's mere presence...she's with the son of Aang's enemy, alone in the heart of enemy territory, against the greatest Firebending prodigy in decades. They've already proven themselves to be a dynamic duo, now they show their trust. She trusts his strength and newfound pride/acceptance so much that she steps aside to let him fight. He trusts her so much that he's willing to risk himself to keep her safe. Then they save each other, share a tender moment at the end of the violence. For all their history, they've found something there, a friendship in action that just works.

Well, I think what constitutes "a moment" is going to be very subjective. I consider "a moment" to be a connection between two characters/individuals or a mutual understanding. Cadmos can probably define "a moment" better than me, but there it is, haha.

Thanks, Pettyfer :D

That's just it. Are talking about moments where people saw Zutara or Kataang? Because that can't be debated, either you saw something or you didn't, no matter why. Are we talking about romance, or are we talking about that mutual understanding to which Pettyfer is referring? I'm considering a "moment", for the sake of this debate, to be one with a possible romantic subtext simply because of the terminology we're using. "Zutara" and "Kataang" refer to the ships.

I mean, there are lots of moments that "could" be Zutara moments had the story been very different. Can that even be properly debated? If we're not on the same page here, we may just end up re-analyzing the show...totally fine with me, I love this kind of stuff, but is that the path y'all want to take?

11/14/2011 #5
Fullmetal Catalyst

I'll respond to some more of these soon and expand further on what I've listed here.

- I distinctly remember her telling him that she was confused and then yelling at him for being..I guess the word is pushy.

I'm happy to take EIP to its own topic. I dislike the episode a great deal, but I think I made sense of the Aang/Katara development. More on that later, because it actually ties into both Two Lovers and Black Sun.

- I honestly didn't see much flirting on Katara's part but maybe that calls for a refresher of the episode for me.

I'd argue that the dance alone is enough, but to do so wouldn't do the scene justice. Katara brightens when she sees Aang happy and bouncing around the cave -- just friendship, perhaps, as well as the fact that he was comatose a couple weeks before. She just cares about him, but we already knew that. Add in her open jealousy when Aang starts dancing with On Ji, her general morose attitude while she sits off to the side, her reaction to Aang's approaching her (with all its quick stages), her seductive glance after he pulls out his charm, the dance itself, ending with the kiss on the cheek, and you get a very powerful scene for them. I'm ignoring her outfit because she's always wearing that in the first half of S3.

11/14/2011 #6
moaaa

Jun has proven to be a character who does this for kicks.

However, when Zuko first denied it, he was like, whatever. Then, later on when he knew Katara and they had progressed to however far they were going, then he blushes, and sputters and whatever.

a friendship in action that just works.

Are you saying that you think in the end it comes down to a friendship for them? I mean, is that what point you're making? Because if so, I have to disagree, because, how easy would it have been for Katara to simply consider Zuko?

"could" be Zutara moments had the story been very different.

I mean, basically, that's what Zutara is. What could have been. Because obviously, it wasn't. But, that does not mean it was a completely unthinkable possibility. "I SHUN THEE BECAUSE THEE THINK DIFFERENTLY AND ARE ZUTARIAN.". If we all thought like that, we'd all have another war on our hands.

I'd argue that the dance alone is enough, but to do so wouldn't do the scene justice. Katara brightens when she sees Aang happy and bouncing around the cave -- just friendship, perhaps, as well as the fact that he was comatose a couple weeks before. She just cares about him, but we already knew that. Add in her open jealousy when Aang starts dancing with On Ji, her general morose attitude while she sits off to the side, her reaction to Aang's approaching her (with all its quick stages), her seductive glance after he pulls out his charm, the dance itself, ending with the kiss on the cheek, and you get a very powerful scene for them.

What I bolded is what I really think makes a good scene from them as a couple. But the thing is, when again is there another episode that shows the two having fun, as..a, couple? (It was kind of a club scene, Katara had her cup in her hand looking sullen, the cute guy asks her to dance, she puts up a futile resistance and haves a couple more drinks...[Okay, that one was completely my imagination.]

A Zutara moment hints at a romance, because the name Zutara is the world-wide name for a romantic relationship between the two. Same with Kataang. I think we'd get confused if we used the same names to refer to their friendships. I doubt any of us really think friendship when hearing meshed names?

xxEchelonAtHeartxx

11/14/2011 #7
Fullmetal Catalyst

Are you saying that you think in the end it comes down to a friendship for them? I mean, is that what point you're making? Because if so, I have to disagree, because, how easy would it have been for Katara to simply consider Zuko?

Well, not really. I personally believe it's a warrior-bond, a brother/sister-in-arms relationship, with a deep and powerful emotional trust based on what they've done for each other since recognizing that they'd be better allies than enemies. I said friendship for convenience and probably shouldn't have. But I think there's something to the fact that they're a powerfully efficient duo with few words said. What do you mean in your last sentence here?

I mean, basically, that's what Zutara is. What could have been. Because obviously, it wasn't. But, that does not mean it was a completely unthinkable possibility. "I SHUN THEE BECAUSE THEE THINK DIFFERENTLY AND ARE ZUTARIAN.". If we all thought like that, we'd all have another war on our hands.

I'm happy to continue discussing the show because I love doing so, but there can't be much debate about something so subjective. I didn't think of Zutara while watching the show -- never occurred to me once. I discovered it after coming here. But then there are people who thought of it immediately. I will gladly argue that within the show, there is nothing that provides a hint at a canon romance, that it couldn't have been in this story and that we would've needed major changes for it to work, but beyond that it's just what we individually see or don't see, and that's undebatable. The ship also certainly wasn't unthinkable early on, before much of their backstories had been established, but after a certain point a canon-mance became impossible.

11/14/2011 #8
moaaa

something to the fact that they're a powerfully efficient duo with few words said.

I think, when you say this though, it could also translate into that they could be a very powerful, easy couple with few words said. I mean, that makes sense right?

What I mean is, what if Katara had stopped, and said, "Hm. Zuko would make a nice boyfriend." It doesn't even have to be a romantic thought, just a simple statement that could lead to more. (That's not the best example though, but something along those lines.

within the show, there is nothing that provides a hint at a canon romance, that it couldn't have been in this story and that we would've needed major changes for it to work, but beyond that it's just what we individually see or don't see, and that's undebatable.

I didn't really think of Zutara either, and discovered it after coming here also, but I think that, just cut out that big kiss at the end and Zutara would have been easier to manipulate into a story. I think after that certain point you referred to, after awhile it was like, "Their not ending up together, let's take matters into our own hands." I don't think when I saw the ending I was satisfied, and that led to speculation about other possibilities, then Zutara galore.

xxEchelonAtHeartxx

11/15/2011 #9
Fullmetal Catalyst

I think, when you say this though, it could also translate into that they could be a very powerful, easy couple with few words said. I mean, that makes sense right?

The idea makes sense, and between characters it makes sense, and that's one kind of couple I absolutely adore (I find Jasper and Alice in Twilight to be the best couple of the lot by a light year). Between Zuko and Katara, I don't know. Haven't given it thought. I prefer to think of their bond as a sibling/warrior duo because it just has so much more raw power for me.

What I mean is, what if Katara had stopped, and said, "Hm. Zuko would make a nice boyfriend." It doesn't even have to be a romantic thought, just a simple statement that could lead to more. (That's not the best example though, but something along those lines.

It's not a bad example by any means. The problem is that as it stands, she has no reason to think that kind of thing. It's not in her character to consider Zuko romantically, or even to find him attractive, and vice versa, because it would have been brought up in some manner. Also, on a side note, I doubt Zuko thinks about attractiveness at all :D

That said, if she's given a reason to think that kind of thing, then hey, now we're talking. Let the possibilities abound.

I didn't really think of Zutara either, and discovered it after coming here also, but I think that, just cut out that big kiss at the end and Zutara would have been easier to manipulate into a story. I think after that certain point you referred to, after awhile it was like, "Their not ending up together, let's take matters into our own hands." I don't think when I saw the ending I was satisfied, and that led to speculation about other possibilities, then Zutara galore.

How do you mean, easier to manipulate into the story? Sorry for being a bit slow here :D

By certain point, I meant as we learn about the characters rather than as the story progresses, although now that I think about it that certainly applies just as much. Zuko is a j*** in the Season 1, that's undeniable, but he does a lot of forgivable stuff. But if we started the show thinking, "Hey, Zuko and Katara...you two should, y'know, take a look at each other", at a certain point we're thinking, "Well...would have been an interesting take, but it can't happen between two characters like this anymore."

And I very much understand the desire to turn that speculation into something -- if you've ever read the end of His Dark Materials (trilogy), I can almost guarantee you wanted certain things to turn out differently (though, without giving spoilers, I thought that was one of the most powerful endings in fantasy, but call me biased). With almost every book or movie I love, I end up thinking, "Well, what if...?" And as far as liking something, it doesn't need to go any further than that. What makes me sad about fanon shipping is that in too many cases it turns that idea, that like, that speculation into a story without taking it any further. It needs development -- not much, in some cases.

To speculate: I think if Ozai hadn't given Zuko an option to come home, Zutara would've had boatloads of canon possibility because a single sentence would have shifted Zuko's entire outlook on life. Imagine a teashop Zuko or a Western Air Temple Zuko except right from the start.

Zutara as a romance has some incredible potential and possibilities in fanfiction -- if certain conditions are met. Too many writers in the fandom, however, waste that potential by ignoring everything that would enable such a relationship and decide to MAKE it happen instead of creating a situation in which it COULD happen. To return to the example I just gave: Zuko has no chance to return home except by defeating his father. He's not chasing the Avatar because of his honor, he's not an angry j*** who would hurt anyone to have his father approve of him again. He's just a damaged, lonely, lost soul with nothing but a loyal crew and a doting, weary uncle. Zutara feasibility? Why not?

And that's by removing a single line of dialogue from an offstage scene that happened three years ago. It also turns Zuko into an incredibly sympathetic character right from the start. Some will say, "this isn't Zuko." I'd respond, "Why not?" It's AU, not OOC, because all that was changed was a plot event...but because that event was so pivotal to Zuko's character, it will affect his entire arc. Now, we might ask why Ozai wouldn't give Zuko the option to return home (although why'd he give him the option in the first place?) and if that's reasonable given HIS character, but because Ozai's character is relatively undeveloped, it seems almost reasonable to me to just say, "a wizard did it", and make the change.

If we already know Zuko and Katara are going to end up together and we have a really good idea of how, what's the point of reading the story? That's how I feel when I look at a lot of summaries here...and it's the same with any ship, even canon ones. But if we create circumstances that stir up trouble in the world, draw out a change in certain characters at key points, and then a romance develops, hesitantly or confidently, sometimes at a snail's crawl and sometimes built up to explode at in an instant...I know which one I find more powerful, more engaging, and more real. To me, one is a piece of candy, the other a carefully-prepared feast. I know, I know, "the journey, not the destination". This paragraph still applies with that in mind.

That's my ludicrously offtopic rant about fanfiction for the hour. This post was NOT supposed to go anywhere near this length. I am so, so sorry.

11/16/2011 . Edited 11/16/2011 #10
moaaa

sibling/warrior duo because it just has so much more raw power for me.

See, it's that raw power that makes it so easy for me to see them as a couple! I just don't think it'd be so calm, or like one would follow another easily. I feel like they'd have to struggle, and though Aang and Katara didstruggleit wasn't as building a relationship. It was a partnership, but I didn't see some random person coming as a rift between their relationship. Zuko and Katara, that person would easily be Aang. Zuko was never a threat to their relationship(their friendship and their lives, yes, but not their relationship.). But aside from someone being a problem, they'd have problems within themselves too. They already have each other's trust, I just believe it'd be beautiful so see that expand to love. Granted, Aang and Katara already had that trust, and like/love thing down, but that just seems so easy.

she has no reason to think that kind of thing.

That's true, but what I meant was, maybe she was just assessing his character. As I said, it really doesn't have to be romantic, just a simple, fleeting thought, that was just randomly there. But, no, not in the show does she really have a reason to think that, with a war and everything.

To speculate: I think if Ozai hadn't given Zuko an option to come home, Zutara would've had boatloads of canon possibility because a single sentence would have shifted Zuko's entire outlook on life. Imagine a teashop Zuko or a Western Air Temple Zuko except right from the start.

we might ask why Ozai wouldn't give Zuko the option to return home (although why'd he give him the option in the first place?) and if that's reasonable given HIS character, but because Ozai's character is relatively undeveloped, it seems almost reasonable to me to just say, "a wizard did it", and make the change.

I think we are given enough information to assess him. It's simple, he's mean and power-hungry. Unless there's a reason where he has a respectable change of heart, he'd always be that way. But it almost never works, at least not correctly. Either he's too mean, or he's too nice. I'd need some type of explanation, because he isn't justnice.

Zutara as a romance has some incredible potential and possibilities in fanfiction -- if certain conditions are met. Too many writers in the fandom, however, waste that potential by ignoring everything that would enable such a relationship and decide to MAKE it happen instead of creating a situation in which it COULD happen.

That is my problem with fanfiction writing sometimes. They just drop in in there, like, "understand this, but don't take too long, because I have to get to the make-out scene." I hate it when they just skip over how they REALLY got involved. In general, stories that start out as canon, Aang/Katara - Zuko/Mai, that build up into something are best. Like, you understand how they feel and how it developed.

My problem(might as well put in my two cents while we remain on the topic, haha), is that here at fanfiction, it's so hard to characterize Katara for most authors. How would Katara feel about this? Apparently, we don't know. With Zuko, she's still her own fieryself, but in some stories, I see that she's just a b***. (Excuse my vulgarity, hehe.) It's not even being stubborn, she's just acting plain rude. I want to pull her out of the story and slap her, but in the shows I never wanted to do that.

How do you mean, easier to manipulate into the story? Sorry for being a bit slow here :D

No problem, maybe I wasn't clear. It seems to me that, that big kiss at the end kind of "cemented" Kataang, in a way. If that had been cut out, I think people would find Zutara a more plausible possibility. I mean, that was obviously a Kataang moment, but I mean, what if it was just a Kataang friendship moment?

xxEchelonAtHeartxx

11/16/2011 #11
Fullmetal Catalyst

See, it's that raw power that makes it so easy for me to see them as a couple! I just don't think it'd be so calm, or like one would follow another easily.

Ah, I was speaking of the raw power of the relationship itself, not the power that goes into the relationship, though there's a boatload of power between the two as well. And indeed, it would almost certainly not be calm.

Zuko and Katara, that person would easily be Aang. Zuko was never a threat to their relationship(their friendship and their lives, yes, but not their relationship.).

I'm not so sure about Aang. If there was any rift, it would be more likely to come in the form of how Zuko and/or Katara felt than from anything Aang did. If he saw love, I think he would live and let live -- it's not in his nature to pursue a vengeful grudge, though of course their friendships would take a big hit. But there would definitely be a threat to their relationship...Mai. She would let Zuko go, but if she felt threatened or humiliated I'm not sure she would allow it to go unpunished. And she seems deadlier than Aang, with an intensity he can't match -- and she doesn't have to hold back with her abilities.

They already have each other's trust, I just believe it'd be beautiful so see that expand to love. Granted, Aang and Katara already had that trust, and like/love thing down, but that just seems so easy.

Fair enough. To each his/her own. I saw Katara as more of a foil to Azula than to Mai, in the same sense that (for Zuko) Iroh was a foil to Ozai. And while there were many reasons why Katara trusted Aang so easily, I do see something very strong in her trusting Zuko, hard-won and earned as it was.

That's true, but what I meant was, maybe she was just assessing his character. As I said, it really doesn't have to be romantic, just a simple, fleeting thought, that was just randomly there. But, no, not in the show does she really have a reason to think that

Gotcha.

I think we are given enough information to assess him. It's simple, he's mean and power-hungry. Unless there's a reason where he has a respectable change of heart, he'd always be that way. But it almost never works, at least not correctly. Either he's too mean, or he's too nice. I'd need some type of explanation, because he isn't justnice.

He is mean, and he is power-hungry, but I meant more in terms of why he gives Zuko a return ticket. It's strategically sound and he needs an heir, but does he really distrust Azula that much? Was he actually serious in giving Zuko the return ticket or just playing an even worse joke? It's almost impossible to see Ozai having a change of heart with what we've been given, that much seems clear.

My problem(might as well put in my two cents while we remain on the topic, haha), is that here at fanfiction, it's so hard to characterize Katara for most authors. How would Katara feel about this? Apparently, we don't know. With Zuko, she's still her own fieryself, but in some stories, I see that she's just a b***. (Excuse my vulgarity, hehe.) It's not even being stubborn, she's just acting plain rude. I want to pull her out of the story and slap her, but in the shows I never wanted to do that.

*shrug* Either misinterpretation or mischaracterization. Part of the problem is that in lots of fanfiction, utterly regardless of the ship if the story even has one, authors are writing out what they wish had been the case instead of building off the source material. This isn't a bad thing at all and can be quite excellent, but it's much, much easier to mischaracterize when one is casting a non-canon bias on a canon personality. It's just the nature of fanfiction, and there's no problem with it except when there is one.

No problem, maybe I wasn't clear. It seems to me that, that big kiss at the end kind of "cemented" Kataang, in a way. If that had been cut out, I think people would find Zutara a more plausible possibility. I mean, that was obviously a Kataang moment, but I mean, what if it was just a Kataang friendship moment?

Thanks. Zutara wouldn't have been more canonically plausible because the kiss at the end was kind of a cherry on top of a very large ice cream sundae (a sundae with flavors that some people find delicious and some find unappetizing...), but it would definitely open up some more feasible fanfiction possibilities (which is how I read what you wrote) and probably create more Zutara shippers than already exist (the majority of the active shipping fandom). If you also cut out the rekindling of Maiko pre-Coronation, then those possibilities would double. If no one (Sukka aside) was in a relationship at the end of the show...that's a can of worms I'm not opening, but it would change perspectives on the existing ships. If it was just a Kataang friendship moment? It would make Kataang fanon, I think, if they did not end the series in a relationship, no matter how strong their love throughout the show.

11/22/2011 #12
moaaa

I'm so sorry for taking so long. I actually forgot you had posted, and I kept losing time whenever I remembered. Anyways:

If he saw love, I think he would live and let live -- it's not in his nature to pursue a vengeful grudge, though of course their friendships would take a big hit. But there would definitely be a threat to their relationship...Mai. She would let Zuko go, but if she felt threatened or humiliated I'm not sure she would allow it to go unpunished. And she seems deadlier than Aang, with an intensity he can't match -- and she doesn't have to hold back with her abilities.

I think, if some fan-girl decided to be really mean to Zutara they could team Aang and Mai up together to take Zutara down. It's plausible, if Aang was just being misguided by Mai who only wanted revenge. I doubt it, but I agree that it isn't in his nature to be vengeful. However, like someone else said, he can be quite petty.

I saw Katara as more of a foil to Azula than to Mai, in the same sense that (for Zuko) Iroh was a foil to Ozai.

I think I have to ask you to expand and explain on that?

I meant more in terms of why he gives Zuko a return ticket. It's strategically sound and he needs an heir, but does he really distrust Azula that much? Was he actually serious in giving Zuko the return ticket or just playing an even worse joke? It's almost impossible to see Ozai having a change of heart with what we've been given, that much seems clear.

I think Ozai saw Zuko as a threat and felt he had to keep him under leash and that he couldn't just let him be free, along with what Azula told him about Zuko taking down Aang. It was obvious all throughout the show that Ozai favored Azula, so, he went with what she said. I honestly believe he just wanted to keep Zuko under his nose.

Zutara wouldn't have been more canonically plausible because the kiss at the end was kind of a cherry on top of a very large ice cream sundae (a sundae with flavors that some people find delicious and some find unappetizing...), but it would definitely open up some more feasible fanfiction possibilities (which is how I read what you wrote) and probably create more Zutara shippers than already exist (the majority of the active shipping fandom). If you also cut out the rekindling of Maiko pre-Coronation, then those possibilities would double. If no one (Sukka aside) was in a relationship at the end of the show...that's a can of worms I'm not opening, but it would change perspectives on the existing ships. If it was just a Kataang friendship moment? It would make Kataang fanon, I think, if they did not end the series in a relationship, no matter how strong their love throughout the show.

If Kataang was fanon, I think we would have a much larger debate, unless people decided they didn't care enough if it was just fanon. I honestly like how it is right now, some people have valid points, some people don't, and that's just how it is, but we'll never let it go. And the Maiko thing, I honestly found that unsatisfying. With the Kataang kiss at the end I was like, "Damn, Zutara would be a lot more harder to make possible now.", but with the Maiko moment I was like, "Eh." It didn't seem to have any passion at all for me, that's why, if you've noticed, I tend to overlook that scene, because I find it insignificant.

Either misinterpretation or mischaracterization.

I think it's a little bit of both and sometimes the lines blur between how to interpret her and how to characterize her. Like you said, a lot of writers do just write how they wanted it to happen, and in the end, the characters are completely different people that didn't really take a believe-able journey to find change their ways. Zuko either becomes a b*** and Katara becomes a b***, or Katara's too whiny and Aang's too needy (never a good combination for a relationship, if you ask me. I think some 'amateur' Kataang shippers should watch out for that.), or Mai's too uncaring and Zuko is, in the end, too needy.

As you go through the show (and this is what I mean, personally, as "moments") is that Zutara became more and more easy to see as we progressed. First Book: it was nearly impossible. Besides the whole tying her to a tree thing (which, in my opinion, isn't very romantic at all, actually. ), there was nothing to really make Zutara happen, except for those of us who did it just for giggles and to see what could happen. Second Book: we saw parts of Zuko that hadn't been revealed before, and we saw a lot of Kataang moments that made some of us cringe - whether because we didn't like it or were already shipping Zutara - , and some of us fawn. Third Book: I think that just opened up possibilities that some of us couldn't help explore. It was also when we saw Kataang struggle the most, so some Zutarians find that reason to tear them apart and some say that's why they shouldn't be together.

That's never really been my reason, since all relationships struggle, but some of the times when they were in the down, it was kind of explosive (over-exaggeration, excuse me) and it seemed like they wouldn't last through it. As in, what Aang or Katara did didn't seem like it could or would be fixed so easily.

xxEchelonAtHeartxx

12/20/2011 #13
Fullmetal Catalyst

I think, if some fan-girl decided to be really mean to Zutara they could team Aang and Mai up together to take Zutara down. It's plausible, if Aang was just being misguided by Mai who only wanted revenge. I doubt it, but I agree that it isn't in his nature to be vengeful. However, like someone else said, he can be quite petty.

Petty enough to hold a grudge for a while, which would affect his interactions with them. Not petty enough to pursue it, and certainly nowhere near violence. If Katara was clearly in love with Zuko, Aang would be initially upset but would accept the love in time. If Katara was torn between the two of them, it's true, Aang wouldn't give up. But yes, Mai, on the other hand..."don't EVER *poke* break up with me *poke* again." We've seen the knives. Whether or not she'd actually take revenge, she'd be heavily inclined toward it.

I think I have to ask you to expand and explain on that?

I saw (and the creators put in enough hints) Iroh as the father figure Ozai should have been. As such, I thought Katara toward the end of the series became the sister Azula should have been. Unfortunately, the creators didn't write a blatant contrast the way they did with Iroh and Ozai, so it seems to me to be one of those things that's nothing more than a fanfic opportunity.

I think Ozai saw Zuko as a threat and felt he had to keep him under leash and that he couldn't just let him be free, along with what Azula told him about Zuko taking down Aang. It was obvious all throughout the show that Ozai favored Azula, so, he went with what she said. I honestly believe he just wanted to keep Zuko under his nose.

I like it, although "under his nose" may not be the best phrase given that Zuko goes just about everywhere but :)

Also not sure Zuko was seen as a threat as much as a loose cannon. Better to give him bait than to just forget about him, as you imply.

If Kataang was fanon, I think we would have a much larger debate, unless people decided they didn't care enough if it was just fanon. I honestly like how it is right now, some people have valid points, some people don't, and that's just how it is, but we'll never let it go. And the Maiko thing, I honestly found that unsatisfying. With the Kataang kiss at the end I was like, "Damn, Zutara would be a lot more harder to make possible now.", but with the Maiko moment I was like, "Eh." It didn't seem to have any passion at all for me, that's why, if you've noticed, I tend to overlook that scene, because I find it insignificant.

If Kataang and Maiko were fanon, it would immediately remove all semblance of the strange "canon vs. fanon" mentality that's pervaded and divided the fandom. It's why I'd like to see nothing canon in Korra -- if the writers say she's not romancing anybody, then it makes it pretty clear that she's not, and everyone will be content to believe them, in theory. I like to believe there'd be less anti-shipping with no canon ships, but rabid shippers will always prove me wrong :(

It's fine to overlook the scene in general, but in interpretation (and all that it entails) I think it's risky to overlook any part of the show based on how one feels about it. I saw the Maiko scene at the end as displaying the comfort level between them. They're quite happy in it. Yes, it certainly lacks a forceful passion.

As in, what Aang or Katara did didn't seem like it could or would be fixed so easily.

Really? Interesting. Like what?

12/20/2011 #14
Mrs Pettyfer

It's why I'd like to see nothing canon in Korra -- if the writers say she's not romancing anybody, then it makes it pretty clear that she's not, and everyone will be content to believe them, in theory. I like to believe there'd be less anti-shipping with no canon ships, but rabid shippers will always prove me wrong :(

In my opinion, there's going to be problems right off the get go with shipping. There will be a group of Zutara fans who automatically want "justice" since their ship didn't happen and naturally ship Korra with Mako, a default of Katara and Zuko. (Weird how similar those names are...just realized that as I typed it) And you'll probably have a group of Kataang fans or anti-Zutara fans automatically resent Korra and Mako simply because they see it as a default of Zuko and Katara. *sighs*

Bryke gave us plenty of romance with kids ages 12-16, I definitely think there will be romance with Korra being 16 and the boys being 17-18. Maybe Korra won't be interested in them--doubtful, but possible--but I think she'll have a love interest. Or two.

EDIT: Just found this on tumblr and thought it was hilarious: "Long ago the shows of nick lived together in harmony, then everything changed when ICarly, Big Time Rush, and Victorious attacked. Only Avatar the Last Airbender, the greatest of all shows could save the channel. But when they needed Avatar the most, it ended. Almost two years had passed, when Bryke announced the new Avatar, a waterbender named Korra. And although her show looks great, we still have yet to receive a release date. But I believe Korra will come in 2012."

Haha :D

12/20/2011 . Edited 12/21/2011 #15
Fullmetal Catalyst

EDIT: Just found this on tumblr and thought it was hilarious: "Long ago the shows of nick lived together in harmony, then everything changed when ICarly, Big Time Rush, and Victorious attacked. Only Avatar the Last Airbender, the greatest of all shows could save the channel. But when they needed Avatar the most, it ended. Almost two years had passed, when Bryke announced the new Avatar, a waterbender named Korra. And although her show looks great, we still have yet to receive a release date. But I believe Korra will come in 2012."

Haha :) Found a similar one on Youtube, first comment at the link /watch?v=1XE9iuNOXzo

12/21/2011 #16
moaaa

Really? Interesting. Like what?Like, when Aang kissed Katara after the Ember Island Players because he was jealous of something that happened in a ridiculous interpretation of their lives, and Katara so obviously turned him down, I felt like a rift had been created in their relationship.

However, that whole statement about one forgiving the other could be shaded by my preference for Zutara, but all through the show it seemed like there were a lot of little things that tested Kataang, and of course they powered through, but at first I didn't believe they would. And there were somethings in it that made me feel like, eh, who has enough time to build a romantic relationship during all of that crap? They had a strong friendship, you can't deny that, and it just seemed like a little crush to me, although, yes, a mutual crush. But in the end, with all of that stuff that happened between them, and around them, in ten years I didn't really see them together.

I saw (and the creators put in enough hints) Iroh as the father figure Ozai should have been. As such, I thought Katara toward the end of the series became the sister Azula should have been. Unfortunately, the creators didn't write a blatant contrast the way they did with Iroh and Ozai, so it seems to me to be one of those things that's nothing more than a fanfic opportunity.

I do think it would be cute to see Katara and Azula as sisters, but they were not close enough for that. In an Alternate Universe, definitely. But how much did they really talk and say nice things to each other throughout the series? ..Never. It was easy to see Iroh as the father-figure Zuko didn't have, since Zuko blatantly stated it and it was obvious, but Katara and Azula being sisters is harder to see so easily.

Also not sure Zuko was seen as a threat as much as a loose cannon.

Yes. A loose cannon can easily become a threat, so I see no difference, though, haha.

It's fine to overlook the scene in general, but in interpretation (and all that it entails) I think it's risky to overlook any part of the show based on how one feels about it. I saw the Maiko scene at the end as displaying the comfort level between them. They're quite happy in it. Yes, it certainly lacks a forceful passion.

But, unlike the Kataang kiss, it didn't seem to cement anything in the show. I overlook it because, when arguing for Zutara, that scene holds no threat to possibly thwart my argument. The Kataang kiss holds a lot of issues for me in my argument, so I focus on that.

I like to believe there'd be less anti-shipping with no canon ships, but rabid shippers will always prove me wrong :(

Aw, where's the fun in that. :( No canon-ships is rather boring, because, like you said, that opens up a whole new can of worms. There would be two rival couples either way, one pinned against the other in fiery debates, just because that is fun. Even if Korra ends up with no one in the end, it'd still be fun to debate. :)

Whether or not she'd actually take revenge, she'd be heavily inclined toward it.

In the end, I think Mai would be kind of bitter. You can't please everyone, especially her since apparently Zuko was the only thing that really made her happy..Take that away and what has she really got left? She'd find something or someone eventually, but still.

xxEchelonAtHeartxx

12/21/2011 #17
Fullmetal Catalyst

I do think it would be cute to see Katara and Azula as sisters, but they were not close enough for that. In an Alternate Universe, definitely. But how much did they really talk and say nice things to each other throughout the series? ..Never. It was easy to see Iroh as the father-figure Zuko didn't have, since Zuko blatantly stated it and it was obvious, but Katara and Azula being sisters is harder to see so easily.

Ah, no, of course. I should have been clearer. What I meant was that Katara became almost a sister-figure to Zuko the way Azula should have been. While it would be interesting to see the two of them as sisters, that's one thing that's basically flat-out impossible except in serious AU.

12/21/2011 #18
moaaa

Ah, no, of course. I should have been clearer. What I meant was that Katara became almost a sister-figure to Zuko the way Azula should have been. While it would be interesting to see the two of them as sisters, that's one thing that's basically flat-out impossible except in serious AU.

Oh, okay, that makes more sense. Yes, she does, however, I don't think it's limited to that. If anything, I think it builds a stronger bond between them in general, instead of drilling it down to being just sisters and brothers.

One thing that always troubled me was Zuko and Toph's relationship. It's not really explored, and I feel like they would be more sister-brother than anything. They both had parents that absolutely didn't understand them (Zuko with his father, Toph with both of her parents.) and they seem to have complimentary personalities, but I mean that in a strictly friendship way. I can't really see them in a relationship beyond the platonic. Sometimes I get little urges and go hunting for a good read that explores them in such a way, but it always passes.

xxEchelonAtHeartxx

12/21/2011 #19
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