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What are your favorite Final Fantasy XII pairings and characters? Discuss it all here!
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Gweneal
Hmm, for me Basch and Balthier have very interesting backgrounds - I would love to see Basch being the leader and Balthier still claiming for the leading role - it would be more interesting and appealing as, after all, in the present situation, is very easy for any character to steal the show from Vaan. As for Reks and Vash, we don't know too much, do we? Actually I don't find them appealing, and not because Reks died in the beginning. Because for instance, Rasler died also in the beginning yet I would like to know more about Ashe and Rasler relationship, before their wedding, besides the flashback at Phon Coast.
3/11/2008 #361
Hito me Bore
*Vash? Earisu? =P That's what I used to call Vaan at the beginning when I couldn't get the names straight haha. Yes, FFXII certainly didn't do too good a job giving the main character a leading role. I guess it's anyone's game. I'm thinking it could have been Ashe though, followed by Balthier since it was his father who aided in the mess. Basch was definitly lead to begin with, but after that beginning business with Reks, he was given the role of helpful, kind, wise kight...the character of age+wisdom. He didn't have much to do with the main story line.
3/11/2008 #362
Gweneal
LOL!!!! Here's what I get for thinking so much about Basch and wanting him to have a main role. I thought Vash XD I meant Vaan though :P silly me. Hmm, but I think Basch has much to do with the story line, being him who "played a major role in Dalmasca's fall" and the events that followed, and after all we found out about the existence of a twin - And I wonder what would happen if he didn't have a twin - what would Vayne do in the beginning of the game, without "Gabranth"? It would be great to have Basch as the leader... that would make so much sense with the logo of the game, which is Gabranth :P light vs dark side and stuff.
3/11/2008 #363
Hito me Bore
Hm...perhaps if he were given more of a lead role throughout the game, and if Noah had more of a role in general, I could see it. Ooh, Good point Earisu. Yeah, actually, now that I think about the logo, yes. I can see Basch as a leader, he just wasn't given that big of a role in the game. Hm, I wouldn't mind if Basch was the leader, it would make sence...
3/11/2008 #364
Gweneal
... and then, SE could just follow the same lines as the other FF games meaning: Main male character (Basch) x main female character (Ashe) = canon HAHAAA It would make sense. Ashe mourning her husband, Basch guilty for not being able to save him from death... it would make them grow close I guess. :D And who knows, maybe that was the originally plan (now that's a lovely idea to believe in :P ). But then, Vaan had to pop out of nowhere :P and makes odd appearances behind Rasler shadow...
3/11/2008 . Edited 3/11/2008 #365
Hito me Bore
Yeah, I know! But perhaps the creators of SE hit their heads on the drawing table, and made a mess of things. XD Vaan...was a waste of pixils.
3/11/2008 #366
Gweneal
Hahaha almost! Apparently, the team changed during the game :P and therefore, FFXII although being A GREAT GAME, was finished in a rush, to correspond to deadlines and stuff. I think the team were all shipping Ashe x everyone Ashe marries Rasler. Ashe sees Vaan in Rasler. Ashe falls into Vossler's arms. Ashe yells for Balthier. ... and in the end she misses Basch.
3/12/2008 #367
Basched
In the end she misses Basch...."and HE's the one she gets with." Oh did no one know that? I have a bit of paper here...(in red crayon) from the big dude at SE. It say's so...look!! *Ahhh...you can't see the bit of paper can you?* Oh well. You'll just have to trust me. :)
3/12/2008 #368
Gweneal
I saw it right now! You're telling the truth I know! :P
3/12/2008 #369
Sita 900
Ashe is a slut, isn't she?
3/12/2008 #370
Basched
She tries. :) It's such a breeze sometimes. Thanks for believing in me, Earisu! :)
3/12/2008 #371
Gweneal
I could not believe you? :) Me loves Ashe for who she is :)
3/12/2008 #372
The Mock Turtles

I swear, FFXII were so slutty with their characters this year - I swear I saw frickin' moments between every character - heck what didn't worry me was Ashe's 'moments' with everyone, but I stared seeing Balthier with everyone at some point! xD It was probably the 7 straight hours of gameplay that everyone seemed to be having sexual tension. xD Oh well, leaves so much open for fanfics when there is nothing set in stone. As per the topic title... it is unfair to have Balthier in such a story cause he should just... win the title of being one the most memorable characters in my book. His backstory is wonderful - a nice classic touch (which I cannot go into without spoiling) of their ol' nobel sky-pirate with a past he cannot escape. Plus, his charm is almost unbearable at times - he is just so witty and playful in his speech that its difficult not to giggle when he jokes or fawn over his delicious vocabulary - yes, I did describe it as delicious. xD I mean, its not that he is stunning - well he is - but he is purposely... not as attractive as the pretty boys like Vaan and Rasler, if you know what I mean? But he just occupies your mind because he has this aura about him that for me, outshines the other 'leading men' in the game. I also have a thing for Basch. My like for his loyal character sorta jumped to new heights when they reached Archades. He was just so much more amicable and... relateable? When he jokes with Penelo and Vaan you do have to smile at his almost 'big brother' like behavior. Thirdly, it would be Larsa. Yes - his accent and his manners! I cannot help it that I am drawn to people who sound nice. Even if he does look like 12. I also loved that scene when he was having a laugh with the two orphans in... Jahara I think. It made him seem more real - not as a prince, but just a normal kid. I liked it. xD

3/28/2008 #373
ArinaIrene13

Yeap.And also Baltheir has a manly kind of style.Not as childlike as of Vaan's and definately not as a 'father's' style of Basch.As for the moments I agree you can pair any of them with almost anyone.I think it's more fun than in the other games where almost everything was set.

3/28/2008 #374
Feeny

Vaan lost his purpose. His reason to live. Yet he carried on living with a smile on his face.

I don't think that's a bland character there.

3/28/2008 #375
Hito me Bore

Vaan is sort of a typical 17 year old boy. He didn't have much depth. He didn't seem that destroyed about his family about mid-game. After that, it was all about the adventure. Maybe if he was a bit more dramatic...

Balthier however has many layers to him. The sarcasm blankets the dispair he felt as a child being cast aside by his father. Sarcastic and charm has taken over his personality now, but every once in a while, he seems really earnest.

*melts

3/28/2008 #376
The Mock Turtles

-is destracted by Hito's hot avvy- Uh, yeah. I think it just depend on your personal preference. I mean, I really don't despise Vaan - I do Ashe - but not him. I think its good to have a teen in there because if we had all experienced, brooding characters we would not see the depths and levels of them... if you get what I mean. Its like, the different personalities all help to emphasize the individual characteristics. And besides, (no matter how disturbing a thought this is) not all of us may be in love with Balthier's personality. -le gasp- I am... but... just saying. xD SquareEnix is out to target a large audience. Thats the point of having six completely different characters. For stabilo's sake, they have got a playboy bunny in there! How much more diverse can you get? I fullheartedly agree with you Hito, regarding Balthier. He reminds me of another character on this game called Drakengard. He was in the sequel - a guy named Urick. Always the joker. He helped people take their minds of their problems so that they would not notice his, kinda thing. -nodnod- -goes back to melting with Hito-

3/28/2008 #377
Hito me Bore

Hahaha! Vivi! Well said, well said! You have excellent logic there! :D Another Balth-advocate!

Vaan does add that bit of comic relief needed in a serious plotline, while Balthier adds the sexiness, witt, appeal, charaisma, daring...

3/28/2008 #378
Kanarah J

Where has this thread been all my life?!

*Gasp* Vivi, is that you? You sent me a review a few minutes ago, did you not? I sent you a PM. Thanks so much!

Hm, I agree with Vivi and Hito's points. FFXII is targeted to a large audience and there are multiple characters to fit certain members of the audience accordingly, and with so many characters, there are multiple relationships to be established to create a wide array of romantic, family, and friendship connections. It's no wonder FFXII got the highest rating of a PS2 game in...er...some survey I don't remember the name of.

Vaan is the comic relief. I think he would have made a fine main character, but it seems Balthier and Ashe kind of took the spotlight for the majority of the game. Not even Basch got as much screen time. When first played, it kind of seemed like Vaan would have a major affect in the run of things, but he kind of took a back seat. It's interesting. He had such a strong personality. I've heard that RW fills that for him though.

As for Balthier...ah, there are no words for that man... XD That cocky grin, that suave voice, that dainty, scarcastic and eloquent grace that hides his true feelings about his family troubles...the betrayal...Ahhh, what an amazing character. Hito, Vivi, I'm going to melt with you.

*AHEM*

I wonder if someone could explain the significance of Vossler. Sure, he was Basch's conflict, but Bash had a lot of different conflicts, all of which filled the same role as Vossler. (Nobility, betrayal, and the like twisting up his mind, making him find the right choice, etc.) I'm trying to find out if he has any redeeming qualities before I just cast him off as the breaker of chains in the Sand seas.

3/28/2008 #379
The Mock Turtles

I know! I was like what the heck have I been missin?! It is indeed the same Vivi! xD I feel infamous now. -titters- As for my review - pft you deserve all the credit you get for that fic - it was so well thought out and wonderfully explained. I must learn from you! -takes out a notepad- AS FOR THE TOPIC... -coughcough- I agree. I think what is nice is that each character has their fifteen minutes of fame [SPOILERS: Vaan pretty much dominated until the arrival of Fran and Balthier. Penelo had her say before Vaan was taken to to prison. Basch suprisingly, dominated quite a large portion of the storyline until the Leviathan exploded. Ashe... pretty self-explanatory; ever since Raithwall's tomb with Rasler's arrival she's been on the protagonists. And... Fran had her Viera time and Balthier's pretty much been the main man of the entire story; with emphasis at certain parts. [/SPOILER] As for Vossler... I think he was almost a parallel of Basch to a certain extent. He was the loyal hero and Basch's idol from what we learned from the script. I think his "betrayal" proved what had been the 'easy way out' for many Dalmascans. It probably helped show Basch as one of the most prominent and loyal characters as he did not abandon his kingdon. But Vossler isn't an evil per say. He felt that what he was doing was right. As an audience we 'feel' that it is necessary to believe in what our party members think is right - which changes as the plot unfolds. We think that the decisions we make at the time are the right choice. With hindsight we learn that they probably come with consequences, but no one can see into the future. I think thats why I almost sympathise with Voss. That's my two cents at least.

3/28/2008 #380
Hito me Bore

Vivi...are you in some kind of complex reasoning course...because...you're good.

Hmn, what a good point you have there. I don't see Vossler as being particularly evil either. Though I don't rember much about that part of the game, I don't think he really wanted to betray Ashe, it just sort of happened that way. He just wanted to do whatever was needed to keep his country safe...or something like that. Besides a warped fashion sense and an obscene addition to chain killing, he was a pretty valiant guy. A shame he had to die. With the proper gambits he could have been a decent party member.

What about Cid? Sure he was evil, driven by Nethecite and an Ocurian, but a part of me wants to think he's got a little good in him somehow (the part that makes me want to seem mature ;)). Perhaps it was the Ocurian driving all thoughts of family, what was right, and really, his true self that made him power hungry. Perhaps it wasn't all self induced.

3/28/2008 #381
The Mock Turtles

-huggles- That's so kind of you to say! I don't think I am since I cannot articulate my ideas very well, but I am glad you understand my rambling posts and the viewpoint I hope to put across. ^^ Yeah, I agree with your point on Vossler. Not evil... just mislead. As Balthier once said: p"The best intentions invite the worse kinds of trouble." I think that is the epitomy of dear ol' Voss. I think his death was also a redeeming feature. He could have called for help; he could of stopped them from leaving, nonethless, I believe that he came to comprehend that what he had done went against principals he sought to uphold and against the interests of the country. Again, with hindsight he came to realise the dreams of the nation could not be accomplished if they were kept under the shoe of the Empire. Again, just my thoughts on the matter. Oh and for sure. I was like... dude could kick some serious monster behind. -nodnod- But death for these soldier is like their way of 'redeeming themselves'. A bit dramatic, but whatever floats your boat. Ha... Cid... I do want to believe that he was once of the good guys. Heck, I even wrote a fanfic that expressed that he was not always a power-hungry-nut job. I thought personally that he would always been a bit queer - eccentric is probably a better choice of words to describe him, but he was once using his passion for the greater good. However, he always had the capacity to do bad things - his over the top way of thinking could either greatly benefit society or destroy it. [SPOILER - I think when Vayne was talking to him and Vanat and he was like "we conquered two countries for your nethecite" that it shows how it is embedded within his character to do everything on a large scale and the Occurian brought it out of him and expelled all the good thoughts from him. In the end, it could be argued that he was possessed to a certain extent, by the power of nethicite. /SPOILER] However, the fan girl in me wants him to have been good. Not the best father, but had certainly inspired Balthier at some points in his life. I think however, that he did love his son... but perhaps... he could not see that what he did "in the best interests" for his son was really repressing him. I dunno - something along those lines. Sorry once again for the crappy explanation.

3/29/2008 . Edited 3/29/2008 #382
Hito me Bore

Hear Hear!

Yes, Cid was ultimately good when he first started out working for the Archadian Government. I want to think that when he first started out, he was optimistic, like leaders of a government should be. However, over the course of time, working under the pressure of Vayne and a hovering Ocurian, the pressure started to build, and he developed a sort of tunnel vision, unaware that he was neglecting his family, foundation, and beginning principles. As Vayne continued to pressure him to produce more information on Nethecite, he caved, working non-stop. Perhaps, in the beginning, he worked to maintain the prestige of the Bunansa name. He wanted to make sure his son had a good education, and was well taken care of. However, after Vayne upped his rank...credentials etc., he started to experience just how addictive power could be. Instead of Balthier's education, he worked on making sure his son was just as powerful as any other judge. He wanted his son to have that power; taste it, appreciate it, and eventually strive for it himself. Ah, but Balthier didn't choose the same path as Cid, and thus, refused. Maybe, Cid was too caught up in his ambitions to realize this, and the departure of his son soon faded. I'm sure Vayne and the Ocurian helped keep him busy enough so he wouldn't have time to focus on that though. ;)

3/29/2008 #383
The Mock Turtles

I love that thought - that Cid wanted him to taste the power he wielded. I think in one way, he was trying to help his son by doing what he thought would be best for him. Maybe he fooled himself into thinking that it was? Maybe he was trying to disguise his attempts of gaining ultimate power through making Balthier a member of the imperial army. Sorta like saying "Kid, I am gonna make you a Judge! Yea' how good is that? Okay, now go find me some nethicite!" That sort of relationship. I think it just became intangiable; his work and his personal life. But I believe from the timeline that Cid only started working for Vayne after Balthier left which is why in one early scene in the game, that when Cid is mentioned to be working for Vayne that Balthier is shocked. (unfortunately, my stupid senses picked that up immediately and I knew before Balthier told us about his past life, that he was the son of Cid. -sighs- My sad story.)

TIMELINE: Unhappy with his father and life, Ffamran runs away. He becomes a sky pirate under the name "Balthier" Cid meets Vayne Solidor (age 21); the two form a partnership and begin a project to create artificial nethecite. Disappointed with Ffamran's abandonment, he places his hopes on Vayne.

3/29/2008 . Edited 3/29/2008 #384
With A Smile

Ngfahh why didn't I scent out the mention of Balthier earlier??

My radar must need polishing.

Ahem.

Vaan is sort of a typical 17 year old boy. He didn't have much depth. He didn't seem that destroyed about his family about mid-game. After that, it was all about the adventure. Maybe if he was a bit more dramatic...

Yeah, I guess Vaan is just your average tweenybopper. Which is why he doesn't appeal to me much, I suppose. I like characters with more going on than just "hey I'm a kid with dreams of doing cool stuff, let me come too". With that being the extent of why he appears to be in-game. I don't despise Vaan, but I do wish he had had a bigger role in saving the world. He's the main character of the game, but Ashe (or Balthier!) is the main character of the story.

And there have been good 17-year-old heroes. Like Squall (yes, I like Squall) or Tidus (yes, I like Tidus).

Balthier however has many layers to him. The sarcasm blankets the dispair he felt as a child being cast aside by his father. Sarcastic and charm has taken over his personality now, but every once in a while, he seems really earnest.

Guhh you're so RIGHT, Hito! *drool* Balthier is the epitome of manliness, charm, wit, and HANDSOMETIVITY!! He's had a troubled past but he remains so strong :D And he's so witty, methinks men with senses of humor are made of win. Yay for Balthier fangirls ^^

-is destracted by Hito's hot avvy- Uh, yeah.

xD Um, YESH. It's quite distracting trying to avert your eyes from sexeh necks like those. (Is that a turtleneck I see?)

I think it just depend on your personal preference. I mean, I really don't despise Vaan - I do Ashe - but not him. I think its good to have a teen in there because if we had all experienced, brooding characters we would not see the depths and levels of them... if you get what I mean. Its like, the different personalities all help to emphasize the individual characteristics. And besides, (no matter how disturbing a thought this is) not all of us may be in love with Balthier's personality. -le gasp- I am... but... just saying. xD SquareEnix is out to target a large audience. Thats the point of having six completely different characters. For stabilo's sake, they have got a playboy bunny in there! How much more diverse can you get?

You make a nice point, Vivi. I think diversity does add a whole 'nother level of depth to the game. To have such vibrantly different characters allows for almost everyone to find someone who they like in the game. Though I wouldn't go so far as to call Vaan "vibrant", but that's a whole other point. He's not terrible of a character, just kind of... there. Which I guess an average 17-year-old would be on a journey to save the world. I mean, how do you expect him to react and take charge? I don't blame Vaan- he hardly can make themselves personality-ful with Balthier of all people standing right next to him.

As for Ashe, I appreciate the realism of her snobbishness, because in actuality being royalty she probably would have had airs about her, but I don't like the airs themself (is that a word?). But again, it's realistic, just like in the case of Vaan's blandness. Square Enix is getting smarter about their characters (or stupider, depending on how you look at it).

I agree with Vivi and Hito's points. FFXII is targeted to a large audience and there are multiple characters to fit certain members of the audience accordingly, and with so many characters, there are multiple relationships to be established to create a wide array of romantic, family, and friendship connections. It's no wonder FFXII got the highest rating of a PS2 game in...er...some survey I don't remember the name of.

Yeah, we've got dashing men for the drooling fangirls, scantily clad women for the horny teenage boys, average teenage boys for the average teenager, stout and sturdy men for the other fangirls, and powerful and kickass ladies for the feminist. And that's just talking about the playable characters. Lots of good choices and fun for all, no? I really don't think I've ever met a single person who doesn't like at least one character from FFXII.

And Final Fantasy XII was one of the only six games to ever receive a perfect 40/40 score from Famitsu.

Vaan is the comic relief. I think he would have made a fine main character, but it seems Balthier and Ashe kind of took the spotlight for the majority of the game. Not even Basch got as much screen time. When first played, it kind of seemed like Vaan would have a major affect in the run of things, but he kind of took a back seat. It's interesting. He had such a strong personality. I've heard that RW fills that for him though.

Comic relief? To be honest, I never thought much of Vaan's role, comic relief or not. What had me chuckling most was Balthier's wit :D His personality had the potential to develop into something more deep and intriguing, I suppose, but Square Enix didn't take that route and instead focused a lot more on Balthier and Ashe.

As for Balthier...ah, there are no words for that man... XD That cocky grin, that suave voice, that dainty, scarcastic and eloquent grace that hides his true feelings about his family troubles...the betrayal...Ahhh, what an amazing character. Hito, Vivi, I'm going to melt with you.

Allow me to collapse into a gooey mess with you xD

I wonder if someone could explain the significance of Vossler. Sure, he was Basch's conflict, but Bash had a lot of different conflicts, all of which filled the same role as Vossler. (Nobility, betrayal, and the like twisting up his mind, making him find the right choice, etc.) I'm trying to find out if he has any redeeming qualities before I just cast him off as the breaker of chains in the Sand seas.

Vossler, I think, was important as Ashe's protector after the supposed betrayal by Basch. He was supposed to be a solid sort of guy that Ashe could depend on, I think. Every princess needs a knight, right? And yes, I think Vossler had faced many interesting predicaments. Although his poking of the Salamand Entite was quite unwelcome, I personally find Vossler to be a not-so-bad sort of guy with an ironclad duty to Dalmasca.

As for Vossler... I think he was almost a parallel of Basch to a certain extent. He was the loyal hero and Basch's idol from what we learned from the script. I think his "betrayal" proved what had been the 'easy way out' for many Dalmascans. It probably helped show Basch as one of the most prominent and loyal characters as he did not abandon his kingdon. But Vossler isn't an evil per say. He felt that what he was doing was right. As an audience we 'feel' that it is necessary to believe in what our party members think is right - which changes as the plot unfolds. We think that the decisions we make at the time are the right choice. With hindsight we learn that they probably come with consequences, but no one can see into the future. I think thats why I almost sympathise with Voss.

Brilliant response. Vossler and Basch certainly have their similarities, and Vossler sort of stepped up when Basch committed his traitorous deeds. The only thing I'm unsure of is Vossler being Basch's idol. I think the two were good friends and comrades and neither sort of idolized the other, because both were loyal servants of the royal house of Dalmasca and that's all that really mattered. Vossler is a classic example of the good guy doing the "wrong thing" (which is in quotations because it's all about perspective) but with good intentions. He was always trying to help out Dalmasca as a whole, and for that, I don't think he's bad at all.

What about Cid? Sure he was evil, driven by Nethecite and an Ocurian, but a part of me wants to think he's got a little good in him somehow (the part that makes me want to seem mature ;)). Perhaps it was the Ocurian driving all thoughts of family, what was right, and really, his true self that made him power hungry. Perhaps it wasn't all self induced.

I think Dr. Cid is just an ambitious guy. He wanted the nethicite, he wanted power with the Occurians, just so he could come out on top. Ambitious. And his ambition led to his downfall, because obviously the nethicite proved stronger than him and what he expected and drove him mad. I don't suppose he's truly evil at heart, just had a thirst for power, and the power hungry never do seem to do well. I think the man was just insane, that's all. It's like that saying "nobody is born evil, we only commit evil deeds". Or something like that (that was totally off the top of my head, the actual quote probably is nothing like that xD).

-huggles- That's so kind of you to say! I don't think I am since I cannot articulate my ideas very well, but I am glad you understand my rambling posts and the viewpoint I hope to put across. ^^

Sounds like me xD I always have points that makes loads of sense in my head but when I try to explain them it comes out all garbled and I end up losing everyone.

Yeah, I agree with your point on Vossler. Not evil... just mislead. As Balthier once said: p"The best intentions invite the worse kinds of trouble." I think that is the epitomy of dear ol' Voss. I think his death was also a redeeming feature. He could have called for help; he could of stopped them from leaving, nonethless, I believe that he came to comprehend that what he had done went against principals he sought to uphold and against the interests of the country. Again, with hindsight he came to realise the dreams of the nation could not be accomplished if they were kept under the shoe of the Empire. Again, just my thoughts on the matter. Oh and for sure. I was like... dude could kick some serious monster behind. -nodnod- But death for these soldier is like their way of 'redeeming themselves'. A bit dramatic, but whatever floats your boat.

Balthier is so wise. He died for what he thought was right, and you make a good point- he could have called for help or whatnot but he didn't and I think he came to terms with what he did and that our side was doing the "right thing", and that he had sort of gone back on his vows and beliefs in the restoration of Dalmasca by battling us. You have excellent points, Vivi.

Ha... Cid... I do want to believe that he was once of the good guys. Heck, I even wrote a fanfic that expressed that he was not always a power-hungry-nut job. I thought personally that he would always been a bit queer - eccentric is probably a better choice of words to describe him, but he was once using his passion for the greater good. However, he always had the capacity to do bad things - his over the top way of thinking could either greatly benefit society or destroy it. [SPOILER - I think when Vayne was talking to him and Vanat and he was like "we conquered two countries for your nethecite" that it shows how it is embedded within his character to do everything on a large scale and the Occurian brought it out of him and expelled all the good thoughts from him. In the end, it could be argued that he was possessed to a certain extent, by the power of nethicite. /SPOILER] However, the fan girl in me wants him to have been good. Not the best father, but had certainly inspired Balthier at some points in his life. I think however, that he did love his son... but perhaps... he could not see that what he did "in the best interests" for his son was really repressing him. I dunno - something along those lines. Sorry once again for the crappy explanation.

Cid wasn't always a nut job, but his thirst for power led him down the wrong paths to achieving it. The Occurian really did use Cid as a vessel to manipulate the people and they manipulated Cid, in my opinion. I think he was possessed by the nethicite and the ideas of the power that accompanies it. I basically agree with everything you said :P I also agree that however much he doesn't want to, Balthier did look up to his father a lot and that's why when he went insane due to the nethicite it hurt Balthier a lot and he abandoned his home for a life of freedom without ties to anyone (aside from Fran) where he could do what he pleased without getting hurt again, and sort of developed into the Balthier we see now (er, did that make any sense?).

No need to apologize, you explain things wonderfully :)

Yes, Cid was ultimately good when he first started out working for the Archadian Government. I want to think that when he first started out, he was optimistic, like leaders of a government should be. However, over the course of time, working under the pressure of Vayne and a hovering Ocurian, the pressure started to build, and he developed a sort of tunnel vision, unaware that he was neglecting his family, foundation, and beginning principles. As Vayne continued to pressure him to produce more information on Nethecite, he caved, working non-stop. Perhaps, in the beginning, he worked to maintain the prestige of the Bunansa name. He wanted to make sure his son had a good education, and was well taken care of. However, after Vayne upped his rank...credentials etc., he started to experience just how addictive power could be. Instead of Balthier's education, he worked on making sure his son was just as powerful as any other judge. He wanted his son to have that power; taste it, appreciate it, and eventually strive for it himself. Ah, but Balthier didn't choose the same path as Cid, and thus, refused. Maybe, Cid was too caught up in his ambitions to realize this, and the departure of his son soon faded. I'm sure Vayne and the Ocurian helped keep him busy enough so he wouldn't have time to focus on that though. ;)

Wow, you all have such advanced trains of thought. I think I'm still riding around in my remote-controlled plastic car of thought. Upon entering the ranks of the Archadian government, I don't doubt that Cid was a different person with morals and ethics and things he believed in and worked for. But times eroded that thought as the nethicite took over his life and the visions of power invaded all thoughts and being the ambitious man he was, I think Cid's original intents fell by the wayside in light of the chances at ultimate power (eghh I'm overusing that word). I never really thought about Cid wanting Balthier to taste the power too, but as I think about it, it makes a lot of sense, considering that Cid dubbed Balthier a judge and all. Perhaps in an attempt to make sure his legacy would live on in Balthier, and so that Balthier could understand why his dad loved his job and his nethicite so much, to prove to Balthier than it was an addicting sort of thing and to get Balthier to understand, because I think deep down Cid wanted to make Balthier proud, and vice versa.

I love that thought - that Cid wanted him to taste the power he wielded. I think in one way, he was trying to help his son by doing what he thought would be best for him. Maybe he fooled himself into thinking that it was? Maybe he was trying to disguise his attempts of gaining ultimate power through making Balthier a member of the imperial army. Sorta like saying "Kid, I am gonna make you a Judge! Yea' how good is that? Okay, now go find me some nethicite!" That sort of relationship. I think it just became intangiable; his work and his personal life. But I believe from the timeline that Cid only started working for Vayne after Balthier left which is why in one early scene in the game, that when Cid is mentioned to be working for Vayne that Balthier is shocked. (unfortunately, my stupid senses picked that up immediately and I knew before Balthier told us about his past life, that he was the son of Cid. -sighs- My sad story.)

When Cid dubbed Balthier judge, no doubt in Cid's mind that was the highest honor he could have given his son, and that Balthier should be thanking him on bended knee for such an opportunity. Never thought of Cid using Balthier (lots of new ideas being presented here), but it makes sense that he could have deluded himself into thinking "yeah, this is best for my kid" and subconsciously wanting Balthier to help him on his quest for power. In the end I believe Cid didn't even have a personal life. It was all work, all nethicite, that was his personal life.

Looong(ish) reply. But I had to put my two cents in, especially at a gathering of Balthier fanatics :D

- WAS

3/29/2008 #385
Kanarah J

This is hands-down one of the best conversations about FFXII and Balthier/Cid I've ever been in. There are so many amazing points I think my brain may explode!

Here's something that I noticed. I don't think Cid's investment into the Nethicite and power was because of a particular love of the work. Sure, he loved science, and jumped at the opportunity to pursue it as a career, but I don't think his heavy involvement was influenced by the government. I'd like to think him a stronger person than that. Perhaps he exhausted all of his energy into the lab because of the death of his wife. The work was a way to channel the depression, and he managed to turn something he and his son both loved (science, general tinkering with stuff) into something that ripped them apart. After a while he realized this and allowed Balthier to become a judge as a sort of apology, not because he actually wanted him to have a major role in the government. This is probably why he didn't pursue him until after Ashe was involved. As far as we know, Cid didn't even look for him specifically. There are bounties on his head, of course, but those could have been from his tendency to steal things. :) As far as Ba'gamnan goes, I think his perusal of Balthier was partly out of the fun for the hunt, partly because he was jealous of Balthier anyway, and partly because Judge Zargabath didn't like the idea of someone running off with all of the secrets of the Archadian government. Cid didn't make any personal attempts to find Balthier, and instead sort of adopted Vayne as his 'new son' (not quite 'son' but...you know...) while simultaneously advancing his career. He realized not only was his wife gone, but his son was gone now too. He needed something to fill that void, and Vayne, and work were convenient. This ultimately led to his madness. I think Cid knew he and Balthier would never reconcile their relationship, and let him go free (for the most part) without trying to find him. Until their paths crossed, Cid probably had no intention of seeing him ever again. Ah, a father's last gift to his son...

I wonder what it would have been like in the Bunansa household if Balthier had not left, or rather, came back while Vayne and Cid had established their relationship. How would Balthier react to being 'replaced?' Would he finally lose his cool? Would he hide his feelings like his past? Such silver tongued characters are bound to have exciting dialogue! Ooh, now I'm excited!

3/29/2008 #386
xXSoldierSasukeXx

Ha ha, long or not, you presented quite an enjoyable opinion to read. I love everybodies arguments here, or rather lackthereof if no one opposes and decides to argue back. I remember a lot of those arguments quite a while back. Anyway, I haven't posted here in quite some time. I'm sure everyone has forgotten me. Maybe with the exception of Little Miss Cuteness but when I look around, it is she I cannot find!!! Anyway, since I haven't posted since one of the early-earlier pages, I suppose it couldn't hurt to say, if it wasn't already obvious by my icon, I like Reks! For all of the short sum of ten-probably-less-minutes he played in the game. He's my favorite character!

3/29/2008 #387
The Mock Turtles

Ditto - best FFXII conversation I have ever been in. And heck, i just discovered this forum yesterday! xD I wonder what it would have been like in the Bunansa household if Balthier had not left, or rather, came back while Vayne and Cid had established their relationship. How would Balthier react to being 'replaced?' Would he finally lose his cool? Would he hide his feelings like his past? Such silver tongued characters are bound to have exciting dialogue! Ooh, now I'm excited!

That would be an awesome 'what if' fic! I adore your ideas KJ - I love everyone's to be honest. Its great seeing people so enthused about the topic and thinking about so many great points that complete what SquareEnix left unsaid. I again, ditto what you've written though KJ. I think that Cid really was too far gone by the time Balthier left, but I have begun to wonder what it would have been like if he never left at all, or whether his presence would have changed anything. I would L O V E to read a final conversation between them, you know? Something angsty and emotional - perhaps Balthier trying to reason with his father at sixteen years old before he left the Bunasa residence for good. -sigh- I am so exicted about all these new ideas circulating... and before I forget -bows down to to WAS's almighty post- Yeah, so you're points are like... all genius? Oh and I just wanted to clarify the nut-job part - I meant obsessed after his trip to Giruvegan.

3/29/2008 . Edited 3/29/2008 #388
Hito me Bore

O_o; Smile, that was a Mega-post! Glad to see you're back though!

You as well Sasuke, though, I don't think I was around when you posted before.

Hm, that would be an interesting take on Balthier/Cid's relationship. There are so many ways to interpret what was said, what happened, etc. Do I see a oneshot in your future KJ?

I only disagree with a few things. It's just an opinion though. I think Cid started out as a decent person. Why would he have tried to raise a family, or get married for that matter if he wasn't a fairly decent guy to begin with? I think, maybe in his subconcious, giving Balthier a role as a Judge could have been some form of apology, but I don't think he intended it to be be that obvious. I think he went along with Vayne's plans just because he hoped for a better future in Archades, but after he met Venat, he decided he was quite powerful on his own; well, the two of them working together anyway. I think it was a slow decent into madness for him. That's why he showed little to no sentiment when he saw Balthier at the end of his life. That desire for power runs far too deep! Even in seeing his son a final time, he wouldn't let himself look at him as anything more than a threat. Ohh...too many avenues.

3/29/2008 #389
xXSoldierSasukeXx

Teehee. Well, I'll be posting here again more often. But just in case, for identifiable purposes, I frequently switch up my penname but it's only always one of two names, SasukeLover001 or xXSoldierXx.

3/29/2008 #390
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