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Eleve Osirian

I'm hoping there are no topics already covering this subject; I went through the list, and didn't find any, but forgive me if I missed it. I made it broad so that others could post in here about questions they might have.

I need to know what injuries one would sustain by stepping into an iron trap, like a bear trap. How long would it take to heal? What would be the long term affects of such an injury?

6/24/2009 . Edited by Rhea Silverkeys, 10/20/2015 #1
Eleha

Tetanus - but this injury can only be CAUGHT (edited!) by having a blood contact with a rusted object. (You could say that the iron trap had oxidation traces).

However, Tetanus' vaccin is mandatory in many industrialized countries. It's not transmissable between humans.

The first symptoms appear one week after its contraction: the diseased sweats a lot, has a diffulty to swallow and has violent spasms.

It takes between one to three weeks to heal tetanus; but if treated too late it can be mortal (This disease is VERY difficult to heal if handled too late. )

Long term affects? Nope. Once healed, it's healed.

Diphteria is also a disease which is likely to be sustained in that case. It's the same illness as Tetanus; but it's contracted by the wound of an already infected person.

If you have other questions... Don't hesitate to ask me.

6/26/2009 . Edited 6/26/2009 #2
Wildcard999

...this injury can only be catched...

Caught, fyi. Hope that isn't out of line, I just know how hard it is to learn a second language when people don't tell you what you're doing wrong.

Lol, I always thought that was spelled tetnus, 'cuz that's how it's pronounced. ^^

Anyway, as for injuries, you also get injuries from the initial springing of the trap, and depending on the strength and design of the trap, the injuries can vary. I know with a bear trap you will almost always get a broken bone of some kind because of the sheer force necessary to hold a bear, but other traps for smaller animals might not give you more than a hairline fracture (because they wouldn't want to snap the leg clean off because then the animal would run away, and human bones are much thicker than those of smaller animals). There are also some types of traps that don't use teeth, and those would only have broken skin from the sheer force of when the trap was tripped, but the ones with teeth will bite all the way in, and if it hits the femeral artery (the one in your leg), you can bleed out in just a couple of minutes. The teeth will also rip huge holes in your skin if you try to pull your leg out. Sometimes, when a person tries to free themselves without help, they end up doing waaaay more damage because they can pull the trap apart, but only for a few seconds, before the trap snaps shut again, tearing open new holes. The ones without the teeth are much better, since they will only bruise you if you let go, but the ones with the teeth will likely be strong enough to break skin no matter how careful you are.

I don't know much about what diseases a trap can give you, but there is another disease that comes from untreated wounds. It's called Necrotizing facitus(sp?). I'm pretty sure it works by dead cell tissue getting into the bloodstream and polluting living tissue with excessive nitrogen and other death byproducts, thus killing them and adding more dead cells to pollute more living ones. If the dead tissue isn't removed in probably a day or two (if located in the leg, other areas give less time), the death will likely have spread too far to be able to save the patient. The disease presents as a festering wound that rapidly spreads.

But I got this info from a TV show, so I'd check on the info. I'm pretty sure the disease is legit though, I've heard of it and seen it on real patients.

And gangrene might also work, but I can't quite remember.

6/26/2009 #3
Eleha

Caught, fyi. Hope that isn't out of line, I just know how hard it is to learn a second language when people don't tell you what you're doing wrong

Oh. Thanks. Don't worry!

I've just realised that I've been saying "catched" for a little while... And English is not even supposed to be my second language '

I don't know much about what diseases a trap can give you, but there is another disease that comes from untreated wounds. It's called Necrotizing facitus(sp?). I'm pretty sure it works by dead cell tissue getting into the bloodstream and polluting living tissue with excessive nitrogen and other death byproducts, thus killing them and adding more dead cells to pollute more living ones. If the dead tissue isn't removed in probably a day or two (if located in the leg, other areas give less time), the death will likely have spread too far to be able to save the patient. The disease presents as a festering wound that rapidly spreads.

Necrotizing fasciitis. (yes, two i) You're totally right!

- In fact, Gangrene is caused by infection or already infected wounds. So I guess it works too.

6/26/2009 #4
Wildcard999

Oh, really? I thought French was your first? Sorry! Well, I know I've heard some Americans say 'catched' too. Mostly black, but some were white as hell.

Alright, cool. I wasn't sure if faciitis had one or two there. Thanks. And it's nice to get some verification from someone else. Thanks. ^^

6/26/2009 #5
Eleha

Well, French is my first language. But I'm supposed to speak a perfect English (supposed... =.=) as I've been spending a few years in England; and as I'm currently in a British School.

Shame on me.

---

You're very welcome!

6/26/2009 #6
HK-47 Scarlet

Interesting topic! I was actually going to start one like this.

I have a question of my own. Say someone has a punctured jugular: not too deep, just enough to start bleeding. How long would they have to live? Could they be helped? How would it affect them exactly? I don't know nearly enough about injuries as I would like to; my knowledge comes from horror movies and you know how they tend to exaggerate, so I don't pay attention to that. I would just like to avoid having a character somehow miraculously alive when he should have died long ago. I have to know if he should be dead or if he can live if I want to take certain actions in the fic.

Thanks.

About the bear trap thing, I was actually told it can practically sever your ankle. The more I read over DW's explination though, the more I feel silly for believing the person that told me that...heh.

6/26/2009 #7
Wildcard999

A second language is a second language, no matter how good you are with it. I'm used to everyone being really good at their second languages, so I wasn't judging you. Just saying that I understand.

6/26/2009 #8
Wildcard999

Wait, why would you feel silly about believing it could severe your ankle? A bear trap probably could, but only if you used something else to press down on the sensor. If you used your foot, the trap would probably bite into your mid calf.

Anyway, I know less about severing the jugular vein than bear traps, but from what I've seen in CSI and stuff, it looks like a severed jugular is also a quick death. Quicker than the femeral artery, because it's closer to the heart and, I think, larger. Anyway, sever the jugular and you'll get some arterial spray, which can shoot out several feet (around three, I think), but it won't be constant since the heart is a pump, so the spray will start strong, weaken, then spray out with renewed strength as the heart beats and the blood pressure changes. But there is only spray if the weapon is removed and unblocks the wound. If the weapon is removed, the blood will only leak out or possible spray out a little like a tiny fountain. A person could likely stay alive for over an hour if the wound is blocked like that. But without the weapon in there, the blood sprays out and the person dies in a minute or two.

The dying is painful, but only because of the damage caused by the weapon. If somehow a hole was opened up in the jugular without causing painful damage, the victim would experience a quick onset of exhaustion, feeling tired, light-headed and wanting to go to sleep. Then they die. Not a bad way to go...I mean, if you bleed out without being injured.

6/27/2009 #9
Eleve Osirian

Sorry- for some reason I never got an alert that you guys had posted here.

My character is going to be walking, and she is going to step into the trap. Now, it doesn't have to be a bear trap, but it has to do enough injury so that she needs someone to help her; that is how I will get her where I need her to be.

So what other traps would work? I've never heard of a 'toothless' trap.

6/27/2009 #10
Wildcard999

You only get an alert if you subscribe to the thread, but you only do that after you post. And creating the thread doesn't count.

Yes, smaller animal traps might not have teeth. You'd have to research what kinds, maybe google can help or something, but if she isn't particularly strong, she may need help no matter what animal it's for. I mean, even a mouse trap is pretty strong (although those are designed for decapitation, not holding on to a foot).

6/27/2009 #11
Eleve Osirian

Well let's put it this way- those traps have been set for food, so whether it be bear or not, it just has to be a trap. So if she steps into let's say a bear trap, it's going to go through the muscle of the calf right? I don't want her artery to be injured, or else she would die =p

6/27/2009 #12
Wildcard999

Oh, a food trap is going to go more for deer than bears. People don't usually want to eat bears. Usually it's deer. And a deer trap might be around the size of a wolf trap, which would be painful, but probably not deadly, and she'd definitely need help. I'm not sure if you get traps like that for rabbits, and even then, I'm not sure how much damage that would do.

Find out where the femeral artery is. It's somewhere along the bone, I think, on the top, outside of the leg. Then just make sure that the trap bites in on either side of that, leaving the artery in the empty area between the two jaws. Then she'll be fine. But I think you are better off going with a smaller trap meant for deer. Deer have thin legs, so it wouldn't take much to trap one, plus people actually eat those fairly regularly.

6/27/2009 #13
Eleve Osirian

Yeah, that makes sense I suppose. I said bear traps because we have those here.

I'll do some research tomorrow and see what I come up with. Any more questions and I'll just ask. =)

6/27/2009 #14
Wildcard999

Wll, it may depend on the region, too. But I thought a deer trap might be better since a bear trap will do more damage and take longer for her to heal from.

6/27/2009 #15
Asmus

Oooh, injuries. I have some.

One injury is an impalement with an iron pipe. The pipe (around 3.5 cm in diameter) goes in and comes out the other side. The location is the left side of the adbomen. Now if the pipe isn't removed, how long will the impalee survive?

Another one would be burning/melting plastic dripping on the victim's arms and legs (the victim is sitting). How would that go?

6/28/2009 #16
Wildcard999

The impalee could actually survive for several hours if the pipe isn't removed. Now, if he moves around too much he could expire quicker because the pipe would be letting up on certain areas of the wound it made and he'd be bleeding through that. Also, if the pipe is old or the outside of it is dirty, scratched or otherwise has an uneven surface, that could create extra tearing that isn't dammed up by the pipe or allow blood to flow through little indentations in the surface that work like ductwork. And that, of course, will make him die faster too. But for the most part, he could survive for a good, long time with this injury. The only thing I'd worry about is if the pipe impaled his intestines, you could eventually end up with his bowels backing up into his stomach, which causes seizures and can kill in about twenty or thirty minutes (I think).

The melted plastic would just burn stuff, then cool into a second skin. You can't die that way. It'd be extremely painful, and you might not survive a removal of the plastic if it covers too much of your body, but you can't die that way. If you fall into a vat of liquid plastic, you either boil or drown, you don't die from the burnt away skin.

Oh, you run the risk of infection with both these wounds, and if he lasts around six hours (I think) or more, he could end up getting sick from an infection.

6/28/2009 #17
HK-47 Scarlet

Ah, thanks much Darkwinter. I now know what I must do with that CC; he has to die. That really helped, seriously. Thanks, it really would *not* have made sense any other way and I'm glad that I see that now. :)

6/28/2009 #18
Wildcard999

Oh God, di I just kill somebody?

.........

Whoohoo!

*parties* ♪ I am a killer, I am a killer. ♪

Yah!

Anyway, glad to have helped. Sorry he has to die, but if I remember right, you kind of like that, don't you?

6/28/2009 #19
HK-47 Scarlet

Oh God, di I just kill somebody?

.........

Whoohoo!

*parties* ♪ I am a killer, I am a killer. ♪

Yah!

LOL! XD

Anyway, glad to have helped. Sorry he has to die, but if I remember right, you kind of like that, don't you?

Yes, yes I do. I mean, he *is* one of my favorite Yu-gi-oh characters, but I get some kick out of it. Not that I go killing them for no reason, it's just fun when I realize I have to. Oddly enough, the more I like the character the better...huh. Wonder how I'll feel if I find out I have to kill Kaiba...

Anyway, I had planned for him to end up in the hospital by the end fighting for his life, but that's all I really had planned for him. But given his injury, he has to die. He'd probably better serve the plot that way anyways.

I never realized how interesting injuries could be.

I actually have one more injury question...for now, anyway: if a character is suffering from blood loss, how does that affect them? Other than, from what I understand, feeling woozy and whatnot. Specifically from having two objects lodged in his back, one by the upper right shoulder, and one on his lower left back. The objects were two shards of glass, nothing huge, just medium shards.

6/28/2009 #20
Wildcard999

Not that I go killing them for no reason...

Getting a kick out of it is a reason...

Ah-ha! So it's not Kaiba!...Well, I still don't know who it IS, but at least I know who it ISN'T! Spoiler alert!

As for the bloodloss, there's the wooziness and sleepiness, but before that, just after the initial impact, there would have been some shock kicking in. So the character might not know about the injury at first. One woman walked walke home with a knife sticking out her back and found it when she looked into a mirror. Another guy got a treebranch impailing his heek (through the mouth and out the cheek), but he thought it was just caught on his motorcycle helmet and wanted the doctors to look over his legs because of the bruises.

Anyway, the shock can mask, not only the injury, but also other injuries and sensations. People may also feel disoriented or removed from reality and may wander around or away and try to go do something.

The shard in the upper right shoulder would limit shoulder movement and possibly the use of the rest of the arm due to flexing muscles in the hand affecting ligaments all the way up the arm and into the shoulder. But shock would probably allow for little to no pain trying to move stuff. It's just be slow, weak and limited.

The shard in the lower left back could actually knick a lung lobe if it's high enough and cause internal bleeding that can lead to limited lung capacity, coughing up small bits of blood and quicker exsanguination. Other than that, it would only limit twisting movements in the spine and make it damn near impossible to lift weight, let alone the arm itself, up beyond 5-10 degrees above the shoulder.

I can't think of anything else that could happen before he gets to the hospital/morgue. Hope this helps!

6/28/2009 #21
Eleve Osirian

I'm glad I am able to make threads that get used ^_^

So a quick question relating to shock: would one most likely go into shock stepping into a trap? Possibly lose conscious? How much blood would one lose from stepping into something like that?

6/28/2009 #22
HK-47 Scarlet

Getting a kick out of it is a reason...

True...I try not to get carried away though. Then we'd just have one big massacre! ...that doesn't sound bad at all.

Ah-ha! So it's not Kaiba!...Well, I still don't know who it IS, but at least I know who it ISN'T! Spoiler alert!

For now...no one's safe. There's no way of telling where this fic is going to go. XD Kaiba's arm is crushed though.

I'm glad I got the shock thing right. The character didn't realize at first, but after a couple of minutes it kicked it. Though I think I've been having him a little too stable minded, aside from the occasional swaying. Plus he's been using his arm, though I never specify that which one. Then again, I never state he couldn't use it either. I suppose I could fix it by making things harder for him from now on. I didn't really have him doing much anyway.

So many injuries, I think I went injury happy.

It really did help! Actually, having this knowledge is helping me envision everyone's struggles which is somehow helping me have ideas for the next chapter! Thanks!

6/28/2009 . Edited 6/28/2009 #23
Wildcard999

I wrote a huge message, then the FFN clock clicked over to the next day, made me resign in, and forgot my post. I don't really feel like retyping it.

Glad I helped and have a blast with it!

P.S. I think shock wears off after an hour or so. Pain will slowly return until it's full force. Probably only takes a few minutes for that. Maybe ten.

Edit: I can't really tell you much about the trap. It depends on the style of trap used. There are so many designs and so many types of target animals. If you could find me a pic of a trap you want to use, I could give you very accurate info on the damage it could cause (seriously, show me the weapon and I can run a quick scenario and see the damage). It also depends on how much your girl and her helper struggle to get the trap off her before the professionals have at it. If they do a lot, there's likely to be a ton of bloodloss, but if they never try, the trap acts as a tournequet and blocks the blood from leaving the leg as well as the bloodflow to the rest of the leg, letting little more than little dribbles out. The one thing I'd watch out for is gangrene (dying flesh) from the lack of bloodflow in the lower leg. After a long time, the tissue will start turning blue, then later on it'll start turning black from dying.

6/29/2009 . Edited 6/29/2009 #24
HK-47 Scarlet

Thanks, I will!

P.S. I think shock wears off after an hour or so. Pain will slowly return until it's full force. Probably only takes a few minutes for that. Maybe ten.

That's actually good to know, thanks.

6/29/2009 #25
Wildcard999

Np. I realized I'd forgotten to include that, and it's pretty important news.

6/29/2009 #26
Amita4ever

Another really good source for medical info is groups.yahoo.com/group/fanfic_med/. It is a Yahoo group completely devoted to answering medical questions for fanficers. I recall someone recommended a really good artcle on shock there and the folk there would certianly know what could trigger it.

Now, Eleve Osirian, as far as your trap - have you determined the size and type? It it's a bear trap it could break a bone. If it has teeth it will definitely cut. There is also the issue of getting out of the trap... It takes a good bit of strength to reset those things or is she going to get herself out? With a toothless trap you're looking at crushing force... bleeding might not be as big an issue, although I think such injuies can bring on shock as well. A toothed is chomping force (crush and bite)... what are you after?

Maybe the better question is what kind of injuries do you want her to have and tailor your trap to that. With everything from toothed to "humane" and bear to fox, you can proabably arrange whatever situation you desire.

7/1/2009 . Edited by cathrl, 12/31/2015 #27
Wildcard999

She's going to need the help of another character. That was the point of the trap in the first place, to make it necessary for her to have help.

And yes, finding out what kind of injuries she should sustain is crucial. You should know that if your character isn't very courageous, she might be in too much pain and too scared of causing more pain and injury to even try to get out of the trap. So you might be able to use a very weak trap in that case. But teeth will make recovery take MUCH longer, and give her less time for help to dawdle.

7/1/2009 #28
Amita4ever

Even if she gets herself out, the injuries will still likely lame her an put her in the position of needing help so being inthe trap doesn't necessarily have to be a requirement. She could be found hobbling on the trail or in desperate need a half mile from the trap if that works better for the story... depending on the type of trap.

And very good point regarding the pain/courage factor! This scenario is wide open with possibilities. Want her on death's door? It can be done. Want her in the hospital for a month? It can be done. Want her lame for life? It can be done. Want her running down the trail next week? Very possible.

Yep, it really all comes down to what results are actually needed, because the trap can definitely be tailored to the situation.

7/1/2009 . Edited 7/1/2009 #29
Wildcard999

Exactly. Good point about the injury laming her to the point of still needing help, but I don't actually know the circumstances of the fic. It's possible that letting her be mobile after the trap just doesn't do enough.

Also, even if she gets out ofthe trap, she may not have the courage/determination/confidence/will/hope to drive her forward so she can get back to civilization. She might just stay where she is and hope for rescue, or crawl to a hiding spot, hoping no badguys find her.

But yes, this can be worked to get any result you need. The question is: What exactly do you need?

7/1/2009 #30
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