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beenwire

lemons are a sour yellow fruit I thought everyone knew that

6/12/2012 #421
Cattenlent

I think people are misunderstanding my point. When i say that ''contents of this site are precious works of people'', i do not mean to complain about the deleted stories, i think that is just a techniqal detail.

What i mean is this: this community exists as a result of mutual effort on everybody's part. The authors, readers, mods and even the site owner. This site is a community, the very structure of it enables and commands it. I think that people who are part of this community should be able to speak up and voice their opinions and push for what they believe (in a positive and functional way, of course. Like a petition)

I don't think the effort to change the system is something to be scorned. Scorning their methods, i understand, if they are hurtful or unconstructive but love it or leave it attitude that is shown by members of this community is incomprehensible to me. It is perfectly normal and alright if you do not want site to change and there are ways of expressing spesifically that, but telling people to go away if they don't like the rules is not a very constructive or democratic thing to do. I would accept it (would not have a choice) if the owner(s) said something like this but hearing it from other members is suprising. One day, the rules of this site may be changed into what some other peopLe would not like and i am sure they would at least want the option of discussion than.

One last point to make. Yes, this is a privately owned site. Yes the owner(s) legally have the rights to do whatever they want with it. But power is not a one way concept. All relationships include some form of power struggle and in a relationship, all sides exercise some form of power over others. In this case, this site is made up of various people's works. It exists to display those works and gains profit in exchange for the service it provides. If, lets say, a big portion of this community, for one reason or another, stopped using this service, the profits the site enabled the owner(s) with, would also fall. Therefore while the owner(s) are not legally entitled to change or alter their services in response to users complaints, often it is quite possible and necessary for them to do so.

Of course, in this case, the portion who is unhappy with the changes may not be big enough to change the owner(s)' ideas, but as i said, such change is theoratically possible. Which means that people who argue their case and demand alterations (by using a petition and respectful discussion) are doing what is logical and constructive.

I have realised that participating in forums requires more patience than i am used to practise (it's been a long time since my forum-using days ended) I think i have added everything i possibly can to conversation. With that i should also add , i do not agree with every form of protest that has been exercised since whole thing began, so don't accuse me on other peoples account,

ciao bella

6/12/2012 . Edited 6/12/2012 #422
Melody Anna Kamiya Tudor

I hate seeing story's I enjoy being deleted for just a lemon or lime, or too bloody that's why they have the ratings it shouldn't change THEY are told before they start the story its ether going to be too much and the rating should be that also other way to tell them not to read. Its not fair to writers that's been here for ever and their story gets deleted because someone don't listen to the fact they got told not too.

but this is my thought but I do like FF.net I have been reading for years since I found it.

6/12/2012 #423
Ryzaki

While I agree on hating it I don't feel it's unfair.

In all honesty I'm inclined to move on. I do adore the site and I have been reading on it for years but well...we're growing apart sadly.

6/12/2012 #424
GothLoli

There's nothing to hate though.

Sure, authors may have put there "blood, sweat and tears" in their stories, but as it turns out, their "blood, sweat and tears" created something against the rules. The site isn't censoring anyone. MA means explicit content, aka describing something in graphic detail. They don't have that in their rating system because they don't want to have it. They have M. Asking the admins, the owner of ff, to add MA is like asking a theater that has PG-R rated movies to have p***.

MA: it's basically erotica. Let's be honest here.

M: Your typical R rated movie. You see people being "intimate" but you don't really "see" them do anything.

The horror genre is something else I know nothing about, so I can't argue for it. But really, most of the people "making noise" are the ones with the topics I've set examples for.

And that's the whole sebang in a nutshell. I've taken down two MA stories I had and in the process of making it M appropriate. I'm not bending over for the man. I'm correcting my mistake of breaking the rule I didn't know I was breaking. Which brings me to my other point. Thousands upon thousands of users of FF have written MA without realizing it, labeled it M thinking it was okay, and now they feel like they're being harrased because they're being taken down. They're not though.

Yes, lemons and limes are being taken down (apperently) but that's just injustice that happens with things like this.

Yes, the original MA purge happened years ago and only now the FF gods are looking to see if there are any of them lurking, but you can't cry out "But that's not FAIR! You didn't care for all this time!!!" I don't know what to say, I'm sure they don't either. They just decided to go a-hunting and they're in their right to.

The way I see it, if anyone's really asshurt (pardon my french) they should go to AFF or somewhere else. And this has been said one million times already.

6/12/2012 #425
Silver-hair Angel

If, lets say, a big portion of this community, for one reason or another, stopped using this service, the profits the site enabled the owner(s) with, would also fall. Therefore while the owner(s) are not legally entitled to change or alter their services in response to users complaints, often it is quite possible and necessary for them to do so.

Even still, I doubt that they will bring back MA in the unlikely event that happens.

I get that some people are unhappy, and I see why (in certain cases). But as I've said, there must be a better way to voice dissent than this.

6/12/2012 #426
Maiafay

The only thing that irks me is the ambiguity of the guidelines. I'm in a violent fandom. Two, actually. Granted, I don't use the "naughty words" or give use an entire page describing how one character tears another apart, but I have some quick, brutal violence - some of which I make the reader imagine, and what is imagined is pretty awful. I have a upcoming scene where one character gets his wings torn off (fight scene) but now I'm worried that some delicate flower will report me and the story will be removed.

Yet, not "too" worried I guess. I know it'll be a paragraph or at the very least three or four sentences describing the action, but it's the vague nature of the "rules" that has me wondering where the line is drawn. I consider M, R rated, and in R rated movies, there is graphic violence (anyone see SAW? That gets pretty gratuitous), n***, and sex.

And if M is PG13, then what the hell is T rating? PG? K is G? That seems really confining for a rating system with categories for games, movies, etc., rated 17 and up.

M: Your typical R rated movie. You see people being "intimate" but you don't really "see" them do anything.

Actually, you see quite a bit. You can see a woman in full n***, mouths going places, and legs wrapping around waists, etc., What you don't see and what makes any movie MA or NC-17 (and is bull*hit , IMO) is male g***. HBO is R rated. They are pretty graphic. Watch True Blood? Game of Thrones? Those are just two examples.

From the way the rating system is worded, not even R rated movies should be here. Yet, they have them in abundance. Games, TV shows, books.

6/13/2012 . Edited 6/13/2012 #427
cathrl

I'min two minds about vague rules. On one hand, they're vague and it's difficult to see which side of the line you are when you're very close to it. One the other hand, if they were specific (say they listed particular profanity which is "M" or "MA") then people would change the spelling, asterisk out one letter, or use a close variant...and then claim they hadn't used anything from the higher rating.

I also consider M to be R. Did someone say it was PG-13? I've never seen that suggested before. I've always thought it was one-to-one with the US ratings. K=G, K plus = PG, T = PG-13, M=R.

I do wish they'd give us a couple of example paragraphs. "This is T. This is M. More explicit description than this would be MA." (Since, of course, there are the same reasons for not supplying their own MA examples as there are for not letting us post it.)

I personally think your writing is a very good example of "M for violence". It's violent and it's bloody, but it's not the author delighting in every detail. It's the difference between Game of Thrones violence (which is "people get badly hurt in war and we're not trying to hide that fact") and Spartacus: Blood and Sand violence (which is "look at this beautiful artistic arching spray of arterial blood. In slow motion.")

You can see a woman in full n***

Full frontal female n*** gets an 18 in the UK. It's an anomaly in my Stargate box set - the pilot episode is rated 18 while I think every other episode is a 12.

6/13/2012 #428
The Lauderdale

Actually, you see quite a bit. You can see a woman in full n***, mouths going places, and legs wrapping around waists, etc., What you don't see and what makes any movie MA or NC-17 (and is bull*hit , IMO) is male g***. HBO is R rated. They are pretty graphic. Watch True Blood? Game of Thrones? Those are just two examples. [bolding by The Lauderdale]

Agreed. Of the MA stories that I know and enjoy off-site, what is the common denominator? P e n i s, descriptive. Apparently it has the power to bring us all to our knees.

______

ETA: I swear I didn't think about that until after I posted...

6/13/2012 . Edited 6/13/2012 #429
That Way

I actually remember seeing a quick p*** shot (oh god that sounds filthy) in an episode of Game of Thrones. So even in that case there's some ambiguity.

6/13/2012 #430
DaKappaMAN
I think that as long as a story doesn't contain licking, sucking, thrusting, and fluids landing somewhere, as well as super descriptive acts of violence (think Saw and Hostel torture), then a story is considered safe. If anything, with the M rating how it is now, it's more of a PG-14 rating, and that's confusing people. When people see M, they automatically think NC-17, and people are so confident in their ability to descern things that they assume what is what and go on their merrily way. That's the reason why some people are up in arms about things. Pure misunderstanding with a little ignorance thrown in. What I like about this situation is that people will now understand what type of site FFN is like, and will hopefully go find another site and give THAT site attention that is most needed. FFN is one of the biggest, if not THE biggest site for fan fiction out there, and it's about time others step up to the plate.
6/13/2012 #431
thelastpen

I bet I could write a fic that contained licking, sucking, thrusting and fluids landing somewhere and still make it K rated. :p

The M rating is the same as Rated R, not NC-17. MA = NC-17, though I honestly believe they should have just called it E or A for Explicit or Adult to avoid this confusion.

6/13/2012 #432
DaKappaMAN
And I bet it would involve a lollipop ;P Anywhoo, I understand M is considered R, but people think it's a get out of jail free card aka NC-17. Most of the fandoms I visit has a ton of lemons when I search for M rated stories. Not that I have a problem with that :)
6/13/2012 #433
thelastpen

lol Or mud. You could write an entire fic about characters walking through a swamp after all. :p

Yeah, most people misunderstand the ratings. And honestly, if the only difference is an A tacked on the end of one of the other ratings, it amplifies confusion. NC-17/X isn't called RA after all. I don't know who developed the "fiction ratings", but whoever did didn't understand that the various catagories have explicitly different titles for a reason. General, Parental Guidance, Parental Guidance - 13 and up, Restricted, and NC-17/X (NC-17 means "No One Under 17 Admitted" (though I don't know where the NC came from) and X is for eXplicit, I think) are a lot easier to understand as being different than K, K Plus, T, M, and MA in my opinion.

6/13/2012 #434
Silver-hair Angel

Agreed. Of the MA stories that I know and enjoy off-site, what is the common denominator? P e n i s, descriptive. Apparently it has the power to bring us all to our knees.

I laughed so hard.

The only thing that irks me is the ambiguity of the guidelines.

I think some parts are straight-forward; other parts, specifically the part that mentions Second Person, are maddeningly misleading and causes too much confusion.

Actually, you see quite a bit. You can see a woman in full n***, mouths going places, and legs wrapping around waists, etc., What you don't see and what makes any movie MA or NC-17 (and is bull*hit , IMO) is male g***.

This reminds me-- I watched that This Film Is Not Rated documentary; a few film-makers who were pushing NC-17 made good points. The panel are prudes. They don't want to see the male g***-- hard, at least-- and they don't want to really see a woman self-pleasuring or someone giving her any kind of pleasure that is not i***. One movie was I'm A Cheerleader. Because one of the female characters pleasures herself, the movie was going to get a NC-17 rating. Mind you, you couldn't see her lady parts but you can tell she was doing it. She was fully clothed, at that.

6/13/2012 #435
Corinne Tate

I've written all the objectionable stuff into my stories. But yet I don't consider them to be MA. I really don't see it as a detail thing, or even as a p e n i s thing (and that's so much fun to write -- middle school mentality here!) I think it's more a factor of how gratuitous or prurient it is. Is it sex or violence just for the sake of grabbing the readers attention? "Oooh lookie here, I've got le-mons for you!"

I've seen many movies with graphic sex and violence, but what offends me most, is when the movie is rolling along on a nice even keel, and they'll throw in a b*** sex scene, and it seem to be for no reason but to insure an R rating. Band of Brothers comes to mind, but I might be confused.

I just don't understand why we're expected to be detailed and thorough with all descriptions, but stop when our eyes pass below the waistline. No. If I can describe his eyes, his lips, his hands, his chest, and the sparse sprinkling of hair trailing down and disappearing into his jeans... Well then you can bet I'm not going to pull my punches when there are no jeans.

I still maintain, that in order to get a story pulled, there has to be something else to get it reported, and have the mods agree with the complaint. Too mature content combined with horrible grammar, or too mature content combined with the wrong rating, M rated summary, interactive, chat speak, p***, or script format. I also think that the mods likely open up chapter one, and take a look, and if two (or more) characters are immediately in a sexual situation, it's a red flag.

Still, I don't know any more than anyone else on here, and I very well may see my stories disappear some day. I just think if they're going to take such a hard line, there's likely more wrong with a story than just the rating. Has anyone seen an example of a well-written piece removed only for being MA instead of M?

6/13/2012 . Edited 6/13/2012 #436
Maiafay

Has anyone seen an example of a well-written piece removed only for being MA instead of M?

Not sure, though I always "hear" of someone being deleted (their fans or friends will claim this, but no concrete examples). I'm curious as well if anyone's been removed that had a lengthy story with MA material.

6/13/2012 #437
Ragnelle

Corrine, I am sure you didn't mean to, but it sounds like you are saying a well-written story can't be MA. That can't be right.

6/13/2012 #438
Kanarah J

I think some parts are straight-forward; other parts, specifically the part that mentions Second Person, are maddeningly misleading and causes too much confusion.

This rule in particular has been the brunt of many of my *face-keyboards* regarding the rules here. I'm all about following the ToS, and am a pretty big stickler compared to some, but rules like this make it difficult. As it's been mentioned in another post, I too think this rule was instated due to a good chunk of interaction-based fanfiction taking place in second person, but it's entirely possible to make a second person fanfic without involving the readers. *sigh* Furthermore, I can see some confusion being generated with the real-person fanfiction, when certain web shows (e.g. SMOSH) who star real people using their real names are categorized. I get why this (sort of) makes sense, but I don't like the idea of creating unnecessary ambiguity when there are so many people using this website with the potential to get confused.

This reminds me-- I watched that This Film Is Not Rated documentary; a few film-makers who were pushing NC-17 made good points. The panel are prudes.

I have a lot of qualms with the way things are rated, least of all with what seems to be blatant sexism regarding what is considered R, and what is considered NC-17.

6/13/2012 #439
Corinne Tate

No Ragnelle, I didn't meant to imply that MA equals poorly written. In fact most of what I've posted on fictionpress would likely fall under the MA category, and I think it's pretty well written. But I think it's been pointed out before, that so many emerging writers slap the M label on a story, thinking it somehow means it's better and more mature because they're writing about sex, violence, etc.

What I mean, is that in the course of writing a mature story, there may be sex and violence. It's my belief that a mature story, which contains sex and violence, along with a whole well-written plot, is different from a story which is about the sex and violence as the plot. For me, it's the difference in focus. No matter what I write, I try to write it well -- with mixed results. But to me, M is where the adult material falls within a broader story, and is not the focus, while MA is where the adult material IS the focus. To me, it's not about the details, but about the reason behind the story.

I've written an MA fan fiction story, and I have not posted it here, because the focus of the story is the sex, and the sex is detailed, as is most of my writing. But I've got just as detailed descriptions in my other stories that "go there," and I don't consider them MA, because there's nothing gratuitous about it. It's just one more thing that happens within the story. I'm really sorry that there are people who consider human sexuality to be taboo, forbidden, naughty, or objectionable. I think flinching away and trying to cover our figurative eyes, is more immature than just writing the scene in the same way I write the rest of the story.

6/13/2012 #440
Lord Kelvin

Looks like the issue escalated from plain fanfic ratings to professional rating panels doing it wrong in relation to films.

Outstanding.

6/13/2012 #441
JbstormburstADV

Thank you sir, for that is damn precisely what my issue with this past purge was. There are stories that are obviously gratuitious lemons only, and while I do like some, it wouldn't be much of a bother to see those gone. However, when the moderation goes after good fiction that has a sex scene as a part, not the whole, that is when I take point.

And in regards to the ratings, I suggest that just maybe, M should become Teen plus, and MA should be split into M and MA, where M involves sex but not as a primary point and MA would be more like the X rating, and in that regard, I think that it would be agreeable to allow the modified M, but not MA, and there would obviously be a more explicit line between the two.

6/13/2012 #442
The Lauderdale

Looks like the issue escalated from plain fanfic ratings to professional rating panels doing it wrong in relation to films.

Actually it looks like the conversation is about both, and about the broader societal attitudes that shape them. But it may be that I'm just paying more attention.

6/13/2012 #443
Ragnelle

But to me, M is where the adult material falls within a broader story, and is not the focus, while MA is where the adult material IS the focus.

I find that much more unhelpful than saying "detailed", actually. Some cartoons are all about the violence (Tom&Jerry anyone?), but they are still not even rated T (or would not be).

While I do agree that the amount of adult scenes (whether sex or violence) would play some part in the rating, there is more than that. I can well imagine a story that have but a small content of sexual or violent nature, that did not focus on those parts, but there those scenes were so strong, had such impact, that I would say that story needed the warning that the MA label gives.

6/13/2012 . Edited 6/13/2012 #444
DaKappaMAN
Bottom line is, MA will never come back, and to be honest I'm okay with it. Whether you like it or not, people will continue to make lemons and lemon-centered stories as long as there is the ambiguous M rating, h*** teenagers, and old fashioned ignorance. One story goes down, five more take its place. And unless there are more admins and mods, this site will always have objectional content. Point blank bottom line period.
6/13/2012 #445
NaruTard 1.5

1: Find something you don't agree with

2: Convince others that your idea is right

3: Make a topic about it and whine

4: Profit?

/trololol

But seriously dude or whatever, chill =_=

How do you think us Roleplayers feel when they delete an ENTIRE FORUM of writing rather than one story? Do you know how much effort we put into those moments, those stories, the characters in them? :/

This isn't an act against PIPA or SOPA, this is an act against something being deleted that you didn't/others didn't want deleted. Take a chill pill.

The rating system is there for a reason, write your stuff within the guidelines set for your chosen rating and you're just fine. The admins won't delete something if they don't find it against the rules. Keep in mind there's also hackers that can do this kind of thing too against even the admins wishes, so yeah chill.

6/13/2012 #446
Corinne Tate

(Laughing) I've just gotta comment on the Tom and Jerry idea of ratings. (Replacing Tom's giant mallet with giant phallus) Tom chases Jerry though the living room, the maid screams and faints. Censors run out and change the rating to M, then look at the gigantic phallus and back at tiny Jerry. Censors change rating to MA. Jerry pokes his head out the hole of the A and sticks his tongue out at Tom. X-rated music plays "bow chicka bow wow." Censors faint. Tom abandon's phallus and picks up gigantic chainsaw, slices through the A, as Jerry leaps to the top of the M and shakes his tail....

6/13/2012 #447
The Lauderdale

Corinne, that is filth and has no place in this discussion.

6/13/2012 #448
NaruTard 1.5

Yeah, that post makes no sense, and this is coming from a guy who usually makes little no sense at all unless he's being serious =_=;

6/13/2012 #449
TheByronicMan

Some cartoons are all about the violence (Tom&Jerry anyone?), but they are still not even rated T (or would not be).

I was recently perusing some Tom & Jerry DVD collections in the store, and the boxes bear a disclaimer stating that they are intended for the adult consumer and may not be suitable for children. If you shop for them on the Walmart website, the descriptions include a statement that you must be 17 to order them. (Though that appears to be a standard policy for any unrated DVD.)

Not to mention that anyone who grew up watching Tom & Jerry, Coyote & Roadrunner, or similar cartoons in the 90s (or later) may not realize how heavily the violence has been edited since I first saw them in the 70s.

6/13/2012 #450
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