The Best Warship or best battle
Which warship do you think is the best? Or which fight was or would be the best, MS on MS or ship on ship.
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Tygear

I'd have to say my favorite battle was the Freedom versus the Providence because I have to give Kira props on this one, he was amazing. In my opinion he has never fought better than in that episode. He was like a jedi, dodging 40 some odd beams coming at him for all directions. Especially in the second half when was able to go on the offensive like holy crap. Although in the end the Freedom was ruined, no head, no wings and missing an arm and a leg and zero offensive options. But Kira breathing, Rau disentagrated and he killed Rau good, i mean stabbing him through the chest and then leaving him to take the last shot from GENESIS like over kill much.

Not to mention the dialogue between the two, I mean Rau was spitting out some pretty philosophical stuff. So the battle was really between good and evil it was between pessimism and optimism except with two of the most powerful Gundams in the First Bloody Valentine War.

5/9/2008 #1
Dragoon Swordsman

Though that battle isn't quite my favorite, I do agree it's great; my one gripe is Flay's demise. It shows that even Kira can be pushed hard enough to be willing to kill; I don't think anyone ever earns his hatred as thoroughly as Rau Le Creuset. The battle also gives a legitimate reason for Kira to be dodging virtually everything that comes his way in Destiny: If he can last that long against the Providence's DRAGOON spiderweb, none of his Destiny opponents are going to be much of a threat, save for the Destroy. One correction, however; Kira didn't stab Le Creuset in the chest, it grazed his side. (If you're talking about the damage to the Providence, disregard that.)

From a standpoint of personal preference, my favorite mobile suit fight isn't a one-on-one. Rather, it's the whole Battle of Orb in SEED. The Astrays prove their superiority to everything short of a Gundam, Mu finally gets to wreak havoc, Dearka joins the gang (I love the shot of the Buster standing in the Onogoro harbor), and of course Athrun and Kira fight together. That last point is the biggest; the way they fight makes it seem as though they read each other's minds. Each of them alone is a handful for all but the most skilled opponents, together they're well nigh unstoppable.

5/9/2008 #2
Tygear

Bang on on all points. And yeah I forgot that Rau wasn't stabbed in the chest but honestly, it doesn't really make that much of a difference does it? Anyway, yeah Athrun, Kira teamwork is amazing to watch. Not so much in Destiny because well, they only fight along side each other like twice. But in Seed those druggies didn't stand a chance, although granted they were way better than Shinn or Rey (more so the latter). Like Rey might have Rau's gene's but he still sucks I mean Kira hardly broke a sweat while him and Rau went at it for at least an hour (Guess work: it took 30 minutes between the time that Zala was shot to when the base exploded plus the time before that).

But I also like the second defense of Orb, in Destiny. Like Cagalli comes in and in about 10 minutes completely turns the tables on ZAFT. Anyway I'll probably post again tomorrow response or not.

5/9/2008 #3
Asmus

My favorite battle is the duel between Freedom and Impulse. Not only this was among the greatest fights in Gundam Seed: Destiny, but it also showed that even those who are considered the best, can fall. I enjoyed how Shinn exploited Kira's weaknesses and used Impulse's strengths to achieve victory.

5/10/2008 #4
Dragoon Swordsman

My favorite battle is the duel between Freedom and Impulse. Not only this was among the greatest fights in Gundam Seed: Destiny, but it also showed that even those who are considered the best, can fall. I enjoyed how Shinn exploited Kira's weaknesses and used Impulse's strengths to achieve victory.

*sigh* That battle was nothing more and nothing less than a particularly idiotic plot contrivance. All factors favored Kira in that fight, including the laws of physics. I shall now enumerate some of them.

1. Pilot skill. Kira is far beyond Shinn's level. A comparison of their records makes that very clear. Shinn, despite having had advanced training and piloted the Impulse for a month prior to the start of the show, has a great deal of difficulty with the decidedly subpar Extendeds. This when he has more effective support than Kira did early on; Rey and especially Luna's lack of skill is in the case offset by the fact that their machines could actually hurt Gundams, which the Moebius Zero could not do. Kira, by contrast, defeats numerous aces despite having had no training whatsoever; Miguel Aiman twice, Yzak Joule six times (outside Artemis, the Advance Fleet battle, entering Orb, leaving Orb, the Marshall Islands, and Alaska), Dearka Elsman twice (entering and leaving Orb), Nicol Amalfi twice (entering and leaving Orb), Athrun Zala twice (sort of; leaving Orb was a clear victory, the Marshall Islands fight was a tactical draw but a strategic victory for Kira as the Strike was repairable while the Aegis was a total loss), Andrew Waltfeld twice, and Rau Le Creuset once (Mendel doesn't really count). Le Creuset is especially important, given the nature of the DRAGOON system.

2. Shinn's mental state. Shinn Asuka is unstable at the best of times; considering that Angel Down comes close on the heels of Stellar's demise, he should have been easy prey for any halfwit with a laser cannon.

3. Mobile suits. ZGMF-X10A Freedom is overwhelmingly superior to ZGMF-X56S Impulse in every category. It is more mobile, has greater endurance, and greater firepower. Moreover, the Impulse has two major weaknesses. First is the modular design; far from a strength, it makes the machine extremely weak structurally. The second is the fact that the Silhouette packs do not have their own batteries the way Striker packs do. These weaknesses make the Impulse inferior to the original Strike design. In any case, if Athrun Zala, indisputably a far better pilot than Shinn could ever hope to be, couldn't even scratch the Freedom with a Second Stage model, then Shinn is doomed.

4. The laws of physics. Shinn's trick of separating his machine to dodge Kira's attack is hard enough to swallow. Recombining to continue the fight is absolute nonsense; it is physically impossible to deal with the inertia of the moving components fast enough. He should have been helpless.

To summarize, the outcome of Operation Angel Down is utterly devoid of plausibility. Shinn's mental issues make it impossible for him to get beyond "annoying fly" level as far as Kira is concerned at the best of times, at Angel Down he shouldn't have been more than target practice.

5/10/2008 . Edited 5/10/2008 #5
Asmus

Okay, looks like its my turn now.

1. While I agree that Kira is above Shinn in terms of piloting skills. It doesn't mean that he's untouchable. Even an ace can be brought down by a pilot who is supposed to be a worse pilot like him. What I'm trying to say is that what Shinn did to Kira wasn't impossible. Hard, yes. Impossible, no.

Another thing I often like to point out when comparing Kira and Shinn.

During Destiny Kira is a veteran an ace. I think no one will argue with that. He has fought and survived several battles (from Heliopolis to Jachin Due) all of which were more or less difficult. He has also fought against strong and skilled pilots (I won't name them, but you certainly know which pilots I'm talking about), and has come out victorious. And while he didn't have any training at all, Kira gained the most important type of experience - battlefield experience (at least in my opinion).

As for Shinn, he is a relatively green rookie. Yes he has military training and did well enough to be included in the elites. But he hasn't been in a real battle yet. Second Bloody Valentine War is the first actual combat for him. However, during that war it turns out that he is skilled enough to at least hold his own against Athrun and Kira, both of who are more experienced fighters than him. He was defeated eventually, but he fought well enough to cause them a fair amount of trouble.

So that brings up another question. How would Shinn fight if he had the same level of experience like Athrun and Kira?

2. I don't think that he is unstable. Rather very aggressive and easily distracted. And as we all know he prefers to vent out that aggression on his enemies, but I don't recall a moment where that aggression got in the way of his skills. Not once did he blindly charged towards the enemy, while completely oblivious to the received damage. The only time where he went off the wall, was during the final fight with Athrun, when Luna tried to stop him. Other than that he fought aggressively, but also ... you know, he defended himself (sorry, its 9 in the morning here and my mind hasn't fully kicked in yet, so I can't find the right word.)

3. I'm sorry, but there is no information, I know about, that states that Impulse is structurally weak and it also wasn't mentioned in the series. And until I find such information I refuse to consider this a major flaw. Yes, it would make the Mobile Suit more "unstable", but not to an extent where it would become a factor during a battle, because not once Shinn or Luna had to slow down in order to keep the Impulse together and neither did it actually fall apart during the maneuvers it went trough.

Freedom's advantages over Impulse aren't that many. It definitely has Impulse outgunned in terms of pure firepower and can perform for almost unlimited amount of time. The infinite PS armor advantage doesn't look like that much of an advantage to me, since almost all Mobile Suits are carrying beam weaponry during Destiny.

Considering that Impulse was built two years later than Freedom, it might have an advantage when it comes to electronics. Sort of, better ECM and ECCM packages, faster computers, more efficient battery and other things we can't see from the outside, but since there is no official information about this. This factor remains uncertain. (Although it would be logical for Impulse to have better electronics than the older Freedom)

Your point about the Impulse's battery issue ... I don't know if it matters in a quick fight like we saw in the fight I mentioned. In a prolonged fight it would certainly spell trouble for the Impulse, but in short fights it isn't an issue.

4. Well, if we brought physics into the series, the none of the Gundams would be able to perform those stunts in the atmosphere, all of them being 70+ ton machines. Gundam series have always been known by taking the laws of physics, adding a bit of "coolness factor" in order to get what we call Gundam physics.

P.S. What's a second stage model? Does it mean second generation or something else?

5/11/2008 #6
Dragoon Swordsman

During Destiny Kira is a veteran an ace.

You're missing the point. I compare the two at the same equivalent stages in their respective careers, i.e. Kira at Heliopolis versus Shinn at Armory One. Kira with no training is thus proven to be superior to Shinn with training. The same holds true at every stage.

However, during that war it turns out that he is skilled enough to at least hold his own against Athrun and Kira, both of who are more experienced fighters than him.

Um, holds his own? Only at Angel Down, which I have already shown to be ridiculous. As for the rest, Athrun (who is marginally less skilled than Kira) twice defeats Shinn without receiving a single hit in return. Moreover, in the first of those encounters, Operation Fury, Athrun is severely injured due to the destruction of his "borrowed" GOUF.

The only time where he went off the wall, was during the final fight with Athrun, when Luna tried to stop him.

Untrue. During the aforementioned Orb fight he literally went berserk with rage. For that matter, he goes nuts during Angel Down itself, albeit not to the extent he should have. He's more hotheaded than Yzak Joule and Cagalli Yula Athha combined, and has a history of disrespect for his superiors; he even talked back to his Academy instructors, for pity's sake! You do not allow someone with his baggage to enlist, period; whoever let him sign up should be cashiered as an incompetent.

I'm sorry, but there is no information, I know about, that states that Impulse is structurally weak and it also wasn't mentioned in the series.

I'm well aware that it's never explicitly stated to be structurally weak. However, when you have that many components designed expressly to separate, of course it won't be as strong as a machine made in one piece. A hard enough whack could shake it apart, PSA or no.

Considering that Impulse was built two years later than Freedom, it might have an advantage when it comes to electronics.

Highly unlikely. The Freedom was ahead of its time, and its official bio states that it may well be the most powerful mobile suit in existence.

P.S. What's a second stage model?

The term Second Stage refers to ZAFT's first Destiny-era Gundams; Abyss, Chaos, Gaia, Impulse, and Savior are all Second Stage units. Legend and Destiny are not, despite the S in their model numbers, as they must have nuclear engines. Legend has a DRAGOON system, which according to the official site requires nuclear power. As for the Destiny, there's no way it could mount PSA, a beam rifle, a beam cannon, an anti-ship sword, those palm cannons, energy shields (I forget if it has one or two), and the Wings of Light; any battery would run dry faster than the Launcher Strike firing the Agni nonstop.

One more thing: I do not have a problem with the idea of Kira losing; I'm well aware that no one is invincible. My problem is that the way he lost, to an inferior, mentally unstable pilot, is utter nonsense.

Make that two last things. I do not claim that Shinn is unskilled by any means.

5/11/2008 #7
Asmus

You're missing the point. I compare the two at the same equivalent stages in their respective careers, i.e. Kira at Heliopolis versus Shinn at Armory One. Kira with no training is thus proven to be superior to Shinn with training. The same holds true at every stage.

If you put it that way, then, yes, Kira is more skilled during the first time he piloted a Mobile Suit than Shinn. But my point still stands, Shinn is able to fight efectively against Kira, despite lacking combat experience.

Um, holds his own? Only at Angel Down, which I have already shown to be ridiculous. As for the rest, Athrun (who is marginally less skilled than Kira) twice defeats Shinn without receiving a single hit in return. Moreover, in the first of those encounters, Operation Fury, Athrun is severely injured due to the destruction of his "borrowed" GOUF.As for Athrun I have always considered him to be the best pilot in CE. Because he hasn't lost a single time when he is in Seed mode (the battle between Aegis and Strike was technically a draw).

Untrue. During the aforementioned Orb fight he literally went berserk with rage. For that matter, he goes nuts during Angel Down itself, albeit not to the extent he should have. He's more hotheaded than Yzak Joule and Cagalli Yula Athha combined, and has a history of disrespect for his superiors; he even talked back to his Academy instructors, for pity's sake! You do not allow someone with his baggage to enlist, period; whoever let him sign up should be cashiered as an incompetent.

True, true. Allowing someone like Shinn to enlist wasn't the best move. Of course we can always say that ZAFT was hard pressed for troops, but you have to draw the line somewhere. I think Shinn only obeys those he respects. He listened to Talia, Durandal and Rei. I won't discuss if that was the correct choice, but there are people he respects. As for Athrun, I think he disrespected him because of Athrun's betrayal and his allegiance to Orb. And we all know that Shinn hates everyting that has to do something with Orb.

Highly unlikely. The Freedom was ahead of its time, and its official bio states that it may well be the most powerful mobile suit in existence.

I checked the Freedom's specs in mahq.net and nothing there says anything about it being the most powerful Mobile Suit in existence. But when I checked Strike Freedom's specs it was stated that the Freedom was the most advanced Mobile Suit during the first war.

Here's a quote from mahq:

During the First Earth/ZAFT War in C.E. 71, ZAFT's ZGMF-X10A Freedom Gundam comes to be known as one of the most powerful mobile suits ever created.After two years Freedom is by no means outdated or powerless, but it is older. And considering that during Destiny every grunt Mobile Suit has a beam rifle and beam saber, there is a high chance that Impulse might pack better than or at least the same level electronics like Freedom, especially when ZAFT has created both of these Mobile Suits.

5/12/2008 #8
Tygear

I have a question regarding the nuclear engines on the Destiny and the Legend. Well it's not so much of a question as muchas it is a statement. What the HELL! Why do they last for such a short period of time in comparison to the S. Freedom (Second battle of Orb) even the Freedom lasts longer (Battle of Jachin Due). This kinda shuts down any guarnatee that the new mobile suits have better technology than the older ones.

5/12/2008 #9
Asmus

I have a question regarding the nuclear engines on the Destiny and the Legend. Well it's not so much of a question as muchas it is a statement. What the HELL! Why do they last for such a short period of time in comparison to the S. Freedom (Second battle of Orb) even the Freedom lasts longer (Battle of Jachin Due). This kinda shuts down any guarnatee that the new mobile suits have better technology than the older ones.

If I recall correctly Destiny and Legend both use an unusual power system. They take their energy from batteries, which are charged by a deuteron nuclear generator. Theoretically that provides them with unlimited power supply. However, if these Mobile Suits (especially Destiny) drain the battery faster than the generator can recharge it, they risk running out of power.

This kind of a system was created to use the loophole in the treaty which banned N-jammer canceller equipped generator usage to power a Mobile Suit. The excuse sounds like this, the nuclear generator doesn't power the Mobile Suit, instead it powers the battery, which powers the Mobile Suit.

5/12/2008 #10
Dragoon Swordsman

But my point still stands, Shinn is able to fight efectively against Kira, despite lacking combat experience.

Even if I were to concede that, which I cannot, it is implausible. Shinn's inability to control his temper is a tremendous weakness, and is effectively a death sentence against the likes of Kira Yamato. (Or would be, if Kira shot to kill, not that I want Shinn dead.)

As for Athrun I have always considered him to be the best pilot in CE. Because he hasn't lost a single time when he is in Seed mode (the battle between Aegis and Strike was technically a draw).

And the only time Kira has is Angel Down, which for reasons enumerated above is nonsense. I'm not denigrating Athrun by any means; indeed, he's one of my favorite characters. He's not quite as good as Kira, but the margin is razor-thin.

I checked the Freedom's specs in mahq.net and nothing there says anything about it being the most powerful Mobile Suit in existence.

I wasn't talking about MAHQ, I was talking about the official Gundam site.

As regards the Destiny and Legend's power supply, I might point out that the Destiny only fell back to recharge once, at Orb, and that was cut from the special edition; evidently someone realized how stupid it was. In any case, their power plants were definitely not an attempt to evade the Junius Treaty for the simple reason that the treaty was abolished before they were built.

5/12/2008 #11
Adamant

Actually, Kira had one major disadvantage in that fight: his reluctance to kill. Kira always avoided killing, in fact he went to great lengths to disable instead of destroy. But aiming at the edge of your target is much harder than aiming for the center. It's much easier to dodge. Depending on the skill of the opposing pilot, you'd probably have to wait for them to start to move (if they start to move in one direction, it'll be all but impossible to dodge in the opposite direction), then aim, taking into account their motion, and then fire, all in a very short period. So, any time Kira isn't shooting to kill, he's not fighting at his full strength. Doing so, he would be two times as strong as when he avoids killing... actually, since it's Gundam, let's say three times. Anyway, that's why when Kira and Shinn fight again Kira takes him seriously and it goes like this:

Kira: *hits Destiny with linear cannons*

Shinn: "If it had been a beam, this would already be over," is that what you're saying?

Kira: lol b***

But, personally, I think props should be given to Shinn for Angel Down. Against an immensely superior opponent, he came up with the one and only plan that would allow him to win, when he just happened to have the one and only mobile suit that could allow it to work. Not that it should have worked. It should have turned out "close, but no cigar, noob." Kira must have gotten a little too comfortable with being able to pwn everyone, because it shouldn't have taken him so long to change tactics. If he had been at the top of his game, it wouldn't have.

But the bottom line is, it happened. You may not like it, but if you try to be creative enough you can almost always come up with a reason that it happened, that is still congruent with the facts as you know them (A: Kira is stronger than Shinn will ever be, B: Under very specific conditions, Shinn managed to beat him). Then you go write a fanfic in which it doesn't happen at all, and everyone's happy.

5/12/2008 #12
Tygear

You know what the two funniest battles in Destiny were (In my opinion). First the Dardenelles, asides from the death of Heine which to be honest was his own fault. It's funny because all these pilots who said to be aces were flattened by Kira in like two seconds, nothing more a guy down moer than being beaten that easily which due to my cold sarcasm I find funny. Second was Crete, and again asides from the death of Todoka which I'll admit was very sad especially with that brief flashback to when he tried to help Shinn. But when Kira intervenes again and destoryed both the Savior which as really cool and then Sting Oakley's Gundam right after he says that he's gonna take them both out. Like an extended could ever "take out" Kira or Athrun. Ha!

5/13/2008 #13
Knightowl 4183

Does anyone else feel like that first dardenelles battle started like one of those old kung fu movies were the grunts were busy fighting the lesser fighters while Jet Li (Athrun), Jackie Chan(Shinn),and Chow Yun Fat(Heine) were fighting the bad guys and Suddenly a Bruce Lee(kira) who hasn't fought in a while suddenly comes out of nowhere and beats everyone. I mean Jet Li dodges kicks about the same speed as bruce lee's and could have fought an epic fight with him and yet he takes the hit and gets knocked. It's like W**!? you got gipped out of what could have been an epic fight that would have proven how great they are in exchange for a six second suckfest.

Because honestly having Kira coming down and owning Athrun no problem wasn't an epic but a way for the guy in charge to say Kira is awesome while giving him more time for his home movies... aka the recap episodes. Bluntly he recapped everything just to reminisce about how great he and Kira are. Just as he pissed on cagalli out of spite towards her voice actor. Is anyone else seeing a pattern, like the guy has problems stepping back and going at his work with integrity. Instead he just ends Destiny largely the way he ended Seed just because he is in love with his past work. It would be like watching someone constantly casting one actor as James Bond until he dies just because he liked the guy as Bond. This is the way to turn Bond into a B movie due to the fact that it would largely become unoriginal and stale. Honestly they came into Destiny acting as if Shinn was just a stand in for Kira and they were planning to switch to Kira's point of view from the beginning.

The guy writes the series as if Kira could take on mobile suit's with a six shooter while drunk. The Strike Rouge thing just came across as a way to say hey he's human see. And then had him kick everyone's collective a$$es easily.

This guy sucks on follow through. Come on the guy builds up for the conflict (see the first battle of Orb) and then either makes the enemy alot weaker** or has the hero pull a batman*.

*a batman is pulling out a plot device like a tool or new ability out of nowhere while ignoring reason. It is largely hinted that spacial awareness can be tested for and you either have it or you don't. Now the reason Mu could detect Rau and vice versa is one part spatial awareness and two parts genetics. This is largely hinted due to the fact if it happened to everyone with spacial awareness then Mu would have shot anyone with spacial awareness thinking they were Rau, but the way he acted conveyed the fact that his reaction to Rau was unique. Largely when kira got pissed and stopped holding back was enough to defeat Rau and the sudden gift of spacial awareness made no sense do to the fact that the link between Mu and Rau is what made them able to detect each other. Kira being able to do it would mean that he is related to them, otherwise it just makes no sense at all.

**See the fact that the druggies were more competent and dangerous until they got to the final battle and died after putting up a token struggle.

6/11/2008 . Edited 6/12/2008 #14
Enchanter468

Alright, I started reading this, and I have to respond.

*sigh* That battle was nothing more and nothing less than a particularly idiotic plot contrivance. All factors favored Kira in that fight, including the laws of physics. I shall now enumerate some of them.

You know, all Asmus said was that he liked the fight. I don't think it makes too much sense either, but I'm not going to jump on somebody else just because they mention it.

Shinn, despite having had advanced training and piloted the Impulse for a month prior to the start of the show, has a great deal of difficulty with the decidedly subpar Extendeds.

It sickens me that that keeps getting brought up as a way of saying that Shinn lacks skill. As far as I can tell, the three-on-one fights with the Extendeds are meant to show that Shinn is skilled, holding off three Gundams at once. The fact that the Extendeds are subpar after that is Fukuda's fault; it does not make Shinn unskilled.

As for Kira's vastly superior record, he doesn't actually defeat Yzak outside of Artemis. In fact, if it weren't for Mu and Athrun, Yzak would have killed Kira in that battle. As for the Advance Fleet battle, Yzak wasn't even there. If you're referring to the Battle of Orbit, he does not defeat Yzak; neither the Duel nor the Strike are damaged there. Instead, the battle is halted when the two machines drift too far apart to fight anymore. In space, Kira defeats Yzak only once: in the battle just before the Archangel reaches the 8th Fleet.

Furthermore, I know that you believe that Shinn is less skilled because the Impulse takes damage during some of its early battles, while the Strike isn't damaged until the Phase-30 deathmatch. However, upon re-watching SEED and Destiny, I can say that this has nothing to do with Shinn being unskilled. Simply put, the script called for the Strike to remain undamaged until the first visit to Orb. The Archangel had no replacement parts for the Strike itself (no extra arms or legs), so if the Gundam had taken damage, they would have been stuck like that until they reached Orb, where, as Erica Simmons said, complete repairs for the Strike could be performed.

By contrast, the Minerva was carrying multiple replacement parts for the Impulse, which meant that if Fukuda wanted to make a fight look more dangerous, he could afford to have the Impulse get banged up. In other words, the damage taken by the Impulse is a matter of dramatic convenience rather than an indication of any lack of pilot skill.

First is the modular design; far from a strength, it makes the machine extremely weak structurally.

I agreed with this at first, but after watching more Gundam shows it seems that this is a Gundam tradition. The RX-78-2 Gundam, RX-75-4 Guntank, RX-77-2 Guncannon, MSZ-010 ZZ Gundam, RX-78GP01 Zephyranthes, LM312V04 Victory Gundam and LM314V21 Victory 2 Gundam all have the core block system, and at no point (to the best of my knowledge) do they suffer from physical weakness as a result. There is also never any evidence in Destiny that the Impulse suffers from that problem. Furthermore, the suits in those other shows demonstrate that the modular design can indeed be a strength.

In any case, if Athrun Zala, indisputably a far better pilot than Shinn could ever hope to be, couldn't even scratch the Freedom with a Second Stage model, then Shinn is doomed.

You bring that up a lot, and it is very important to note that Athrun wasn't trying to damage the Freedom. He was merely attempting to stop Kira from attacking ZAFT forces.

You've also stated that Athrun trounces Shinn while severely injured. That's not true. Athrun lightly damages the Destiny, cutting off one of its hands. The mobile suit, however, remains fully functional and still has most of its weapons. Shinn withdraws because he gets an order from Captain Gladys. Indeed, if that fight had gone on fifteen more seconds, Athrun would be dead, since he falls unconscious right after the Destiny leaves, and the Infinite Justice topples from the sky.

4. The laws of physics. Shinn's trick of separating his machine to dodge Kira's attack is hard enough to swallow. Recombining to continue the fight is absolute nonsense; it is physically impossible to deal with the inertia of the moving components fast enough. He should have been helpless.

True, but again, this is something of a tradition. In fact, if you wanted to bring the laws of physics into it, Kira should be long dead by now. He has a habit of dodging beams from his enemies' rifles and/or DRAGOON pods. Particle beams are theoretically capable of being accelerated to near the speed of light. Even assuming that these ones are slower, they should at least be moving as fast as bullets, which means at or above the speed of sound. Anything moving that fast is impossible to dodge. If the beams are lasers (highly unlikely given that beams in all other Gundam shows I know of are particle weapons) then it's even more impossible to dodge them, since lasers, by their very definition, move at the speed of light.

I don't consider Angel Down to be plausible myself, but I don't think the skill gap between Shinn and the Archangel pilots is as great as you tend to say it is. I hope I didn't upset you, Dragoon, because I consider you a friend. I just got very frustrated when you said that Shinn couldn't do any better than "annoying fly level...at the best of times."

6/14/2008 #15
Enchanter468

Like an extended could ever "take out" Kira or Athrun. Ha!

Actually, Clotho Buer would have killed Kira during the Battle of Orb were it not for Athrun. Kira was about to take a Zorn blast right through the cockpit when Athrun threw the Justice into the line of fire and took the hit on his shield.

6/14/2008 #16
Enchanter468

The guy writes the series as if Kira could take on mobile suit's with a six shooter while drunk.

No kidding (Destiny Phase-50). Moreover, rumor has it that Shinn's character arc was butchered the way it was because he did something to offend Morosawa.

To be fair, though, the Druggies didn't seem too underpowered at Jachin to me. True, Orga gets killed rather easily, but I think his death was due to cooperative tactics between Kira and Athrun rather than a lack of skill on his part. He dodges Kira's strike easily enough, but isn't expecting Athrun to attack from behind. Shani's death is, in my opinion, due purely to him being taken by surprise. He thought he had killed Yzak with that plasma beam, so when the Duel emerged from the explosion, beam sabers drawn...

Basically, Shani was killed during his W** moment.

Clotho wasn't underpowered at all. Yzak didn't even scratch the Raider until Clotho went mad from withdrawal.

6/14/2008 #17
CSS Stravag

I have to agree that my favorite battle has to be the Aube (Orb) battle in GS. It shows that wars are not faught by a handful of aces, which happens to be my major gripe with the whole Gundam franchise more or less end to end. War is the sport of team killing, as in TEAM, not 'I'. I get the feeling that the authors of this story were not military and did not do a whole helluva lot of research on that subject, otherwise there would be less ace combat and more realistic unit battles.

I'm going to bite on this reincarnation of the Angel Down argument, since I think it was also played out in another one of Tygear's forums. Kira should not have lost by the numbers but he earned it. After Shin dodged six or seven non-fatal shots he should have put a center-mass tap downrange and been done with the Impulse, therefore I'm not going to show any sympathy for Kira this go around. Kira played by a rule he thought he could always play by, and when Shin invalidated that rule Kira should have changed his strategy accordingly, but he did not. Oops, sorry Charlie, no b*** prize for you (except a beefcake variant of the Strike later in the series). Logic absent, anyone?

Just my 2 C-bills on this heated subject. Good day.

8/8/2008 #18
Athrun 77

I have to disagree Shinn was cheating cause he gots tips from Rey. Here it be in school snese

Shinn: Haven't been to beat kira scores

Rey: Why is that

Shinn: I don't know

Rey:I can Help

Shinn: How?

Rey: Here the answers

Shinn: How did you get these

Rey: Doesn't matter the srouce right

Shinn:Ture.

Do you get dift. In a real war both sides have ace polits going at it.

8/13/2008 #19
Enchanter468

I have to disagree Shinn was cheating cause he gots tips from Rey.

One thing you have to realize is that in war, there is no such thing as cheating.

In a real war both sides have ace polits going at it.

This is true, but I think what Stravag was saying is that in a real war, while there certainly are ace pilots, the aces alone do not change the course of the battle. What wins a battle is teamwork and intelligent strategy. Aces help, but they can't do it alone.

8/13/2008 #20
Athrun 77

I know it takes a team to win a war. Let look at ep 23,28, shinn's a** was getting owned. I don't expect anime to show as real war. Cause really its hell on earth.

8/13/2008 #21
CSS Stravag

And rightly so he should have been 0wn3d h***. Flanked, rolled up, and smoked like a low-quality d00b. Except, plot force kept him going until Kira did the 'roll-up and smoke' routine on him in 50 / Final Plus. Shinn wasn't a soldier, he was a degenerate with friends in high places. Rather disgusting, really.

War is the saddest but often times the most necessary of man's inventions. Were that it was else, that there was no necessity for war, but some people just will not see the light. Oh, well.

As to the fate of the Druggies, their fate is sad but I consider all three of their demise as legit kills. The only of the Sleepers I consider legit is Stella, stuck in a walking target that she could not escape. There wasn't much surprise to Shin's stunt with the Blast Silhouette (Auel should have dodged) and Sting's end was just plain sad. They killed him off for no real good reason IMHO, whereas he should have gone KIA in the same battle as Stella. At least he would not have gone out like a complete b***.

No. Logic. Whatsoever. In Destiny's case, I think it's only saving grace was the fact that it was Gundam. That may just be my own two C-bills on the matter, however.

8/13/2008 #22
Athrun 77

Gundam seed destiny Overall was a Great series like the last 10 eps kept me at the Edge of my seat. When re-watch Gudam seed destiny I skip 50 and Go watch final plus. I like if Pick favorite moblie suit Battle in that series the Battles between Kira and Shinn in ph 42,43, Final PLus they just speculator.

8/13/2008 #23
Knightowl 4183

The only real bone to pick in the series is the fact that instead of seeing battles where both sides giving it there all and proving that they are competent soldiers. We got alot of those scenes when shinn was around until he got the destiny and then they rushed through the battles to get to the end and wasted so much potential that these battles had for ridiculous slide show episodes so the the guy in charge could pat himself on the back and comment about his genius. H#ll he wrote the first part like it was the intermission that ended when Kira took up the freedom again at which point when ever he appeared in the freedom it became like a fight scene in a badly acted play where it is obvious that everyone else is purposely letting him defeat them instead of fighting back. It's just as obvious the one directing it has a hate on for cagalli and a hard on for kira and the archangel crew. It reminds me of the druggies final appearence in Seed in which they were suddenly less competent and were missing some of the maneuvers that they used before. I mean they were monsters early on and were ignobly killed so easily was just a huge letdown from what it could have been. This also brings up the fact the astray girls being killed for no real reason except for shock value.

My main dissatisfaction with Destiny is the fact it ended largely like Seed, the fact that alot of the new characters were sabotaged early on and one or two of the old ones now that I think about it, and finally the fact that so many things were executed poorly which brought them down from what they could have been.

8/19/2008 #24
Athrun 77

That alot like biased opoion. I am sorry Your favorite Character shinn or Rey got they A**kicked by Kira Yamato.

8/19/2008 #25
CSS Stravag

It sounds like the bias cuts both ways in this case.

A lot of the fighting in both series was rather badly butchered, boiling back down to the fact that wars are not fought and won by a handful of aces, war doesn't work like that. It is a team sport. Ah, well, the Gundam authors and directors may never learn. On the other hand, those few battles where it was force-on-force actually count as somewhat realistic, which is better than nothing I guess.

Oruga got caught from behind with one of the anti-ship beam sabers on the METEOR system. This follows established logic from the series because Kira took some hits in the back completely surprised. Shani got hit by the Duel on a shock-value tactic, he thought he got the Duel but it ejected the add-on armor to absorb the beam, then ran through the particulate cloud to close and spear the Forbidden. The Raider got it in the end in a shooting match between the Duel using the Buster's long-range cannon and the Raider's Zorn cannon. I don't see how that is illegitimate.

Destiny, however, is just plain sad. There are far too many battles in Destiny that should have had far different and far more bloody outcomes for both sides. Murphy's Law was rather absent from Destiny, which means it is way too artificial for general consumption. All that sugar and carbs, no real protein is bad joss for the Gundam universe.

Once more, just my two C-bills on the matter. Have a nice day :P

8/20/2008 #26
Athrun 77

Destiny, however, is just plain sad. There are far too many battles in Destiny that should have had far different and far more bloody outcomes for both sides. Murphy's Law was rather absent from Destiny, which means it is way too artificial for general consumption. All that sugar and carbs, no real protein is bad joss for the Gundam universe.

So Crete or Berlien or the 1.4 billion people being killed in the Attack on the Plants isn't booldy enough

Orb and Zaft had learn their lesson from the First war and EAF didn't seemed get it untiil the end. both sides didn't what to fight the same kinda of war then they back in Gundam seed.

8/20/2008 #27
Knightowl 4183

"That alot like biased opoion. I am sorry Your favorite Character shinn or Rey got they A**kicked by Kira Yamato."

That is what you say. But the truth is I hate Kira Yamato. And the truth is I love Kira Yamato. How can this be?

That's actually very simple in truth I loathe the deus ex machina Kira of destiny who is handed victory on a silver platter without actually working for it. It doesn't matter if your a coordinator or a natural if you don't practice something for over a year your instincts will go to pot along with your skills. Honestly you will still be able to do it but you won't be as good as you were without practicing hard to get back in shape. No one can just get in a jet after a year and pilot as good as they could before without practice. And yet destiny Kira could.

This reminds me of Code Geass Suzaku who they potray as a Deus Ex Machina but they do it purposely as a parody.

While destiny does it as a serious thing which makes it ridiculous do to the fact that they make everyone on the other side weak to make kira seem greater.

Their is real hard fought battles for destiny Kira except like 2 token battles. The real truth is they turned the Archangel,Kira, and Mu into giant parodies of themselves that p*** all over the real ones.

By the way I am currently trying to write a naruto gundam seed fusion. I actually call it whirlpool seed. My idea is to use largely use canon suits from the different series while potraying a realistic approach to the battles.

I honestly feel both the cast old and new got a raw deal.

8/20/2008 #28
Enchanter468

So Crete or Berlien or the 1.4 billion people being killed in the Attack on the Plants isn't booldy enough

I think what Stravag was saying (correct me if I'm wrong, Stravag) is that many of the fights were too one-sided. My own personal pet peeve is Heaven's Base (Destiny Phase-38). The Logos forces are positioned in a hardened fortress, bristling with both ground-based defenses and mobile suit and mobile armor forces. They see the enemy coming and have the traditional "home court advantage". Yet ZAFT still blows through their defenses with disgusting ease. I mean, there are five Destroys at Heaven's Base. One Destroy was a nightmarish fight at Berlin, but here they might as well be giant bullseyes with legs!

Before you say anything, I know there are ZAFT casualties, but that still doesn't excuse the fact that a massive military stronghold falls so ridiculously fast.

"Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans, the next best is to prevent the junction of the enemy's forces, the next in order is to attack the enemy's army in the field, and the worst policy of all is to besiege walled cities."

-Sun Tzu, The Art of War

Given, that was written over 2,000 years ago, but I think it's still viable.

Other examples of the annoying one-sidedness are the Battle of Daedalus (Phase-45) and of course Phases 49 and 50, in which the Archangel and Eternal pretty much singlehandedly whip ZAFT's entire Lunar Fleet.

8/20/2008 . Edited 8/20/2008 #29
Enchanter468

I honestly feel both the cast old and new got a raw deal.

That is indeed one of the major problems I have with Destiny. Shinn, who I believe was originally supposed to follow Kamille Bidan's character path (maturing and growing over the course of the series) instead ends up with no development other than gradually increasing insanity, which leads to people calling him things like a "juvenile sociopathic maggot" or "degenerate with friends in high places." The rest of the Minerva crew are simply relegated to the role of the incompetent villains, who can never defeat the Archangel (yes, there's Angel Down, but it is explicitly stated that the Archangel is not fighting back, so it's hardly a legitimate victory).

The Archangel characters end up pretty butchered as well. Kira becomes Kira Almighty (Jesus Yamato, as some have called him) and Cagalli turns into the Spineless Wonder. Athrun may or may not be in character, depending on who you ask.

By the way, Stravag, I hope I didn't offend you by using your comments as examples. No disrespect was meant towards you.

This reminds me of Code Geass Suzaku who they potray as a Deus Ex Machina but they do it purposely as a parody.

I think they're serious with Suzaku, but the important thing to remember is that Suzaku doesn't always win.

8/20/2008 #30
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