Dante's Inferno
So you want to laugh at the N00BI3S and StuSuethors. This is the place. We never sleep. Come hang out and talk about anything, but you are on your own if you see foul language. Formerly the L.F.E.
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Saber Apricot

All right. A fair statement. Then I'll simply rephrase that and say that your choice of words in that particular instance did not sound sincere. Sound fair, or do you feel persecuted?

Ah, there's still a problem, because that doesn't make sense. Insincere would mean that I was being hypocritical. But, as I've mentioned in past posts, I did what I suggested. I realized I was depressed, deemed it selfish and unhealthy, and did what I could to snap out of it. I got a hobby, I started to work out at the gym. It was a project, it was fun, it got my mind off moping. ...So, I was being sincere.

Sense. It's a first impression thing. Remember how you said that it's more difficult to detect a person's sincerity on the internet due to lack of body language on the internet? I don't think that's a mere figment of imagination. It does play a part, but intentions don't always rub off into what people say.

That doesn't answer the question.

Imagining it doesn't make it feel anymore real to you. If you're basing it on evidense, then you're sensing, not imagining. So what are you sensing? The body language and tone isn't there. You wrote, "I'm not sure if it's real or just percieved, but it feels real to me, and just the feeling is nasty enough." And then later you wrote, "Yup. I've definitely tried to hint at your word choice several times. But you are right about body language and tone. I have a friend who's rather frank in her opinion, and I don't find her insufferable. Her candor sort of reminds me of you a little bit." You also thought that I wanted praise and thanks....which wasn't so, therefore it was imagined. You also thought I hated you, but I don't and you says that changes things. That makes it seem more like it's imagined too.

I can tell you that I don't write these things with hate in my heart, anger toward you, desiring to wound you and make you cry. No. It's not my thing; I don't get off on making people feel like crap...If anything, I just end up feeling guilty then. Like you mentioned with your friend, try to imagine me like that.

When I talk with friends, usually my tone is light, I tease, I joke, I don't yell or say things in a cold, bitchy tone. I'm the chatterbox, the entertainer. Sometimes I argue/debate with my friends, but we don't take things personally or actually get angry with each other. And if I break into a more chill or neutral tone, people will start asking me if I'm feeling alright. ...Does that help get a feel for the overall mood of my posts?

1/18/2009 #1,561
Venomous Woe

When I talk with friends, usually my tone is light, I tease, I joke, I don't yell or say things in a cold, bitchy tone. I'm the chatterbox, the entertainer. Sometimes I argue/debate with my friends, but we don't take things personally or actually get angry with each other. And if I break into a more chill or neutral tone, people will start asking me if I'm feeling alright. ...Does that help get a feel for the overall mood of my posts?

To some extent. That image conflicts with the one I've percieved, so it'll take a little time to work around it. I don't really trust you that much, you see.

I can tell you that I don't write these things with hate in my heart, anger toward you, desiring to wound you and make you cry. No. It's not my thing; I don't get off on making people feel like crap...If anything, I just end up feeling guilty then. Like you mentioned with your friend, try to imagine me like that.

Alright. Next time I get angry or hostile, I promise to at least think of my friend before doing anything else. Hopefully it will be a promise I keep. It may be foolhardy to make a promise that I might not be able to keep, but I hope that making it a solemn promise will ensure that I do better.

1/18/2009 #1,562
Saber Apricot

But you don't like me, so I'll keep that in mind. If you don't like me, it's more likely that you'll lean toward assuming the worst.

1/18/2009 #1,563
Venomous Woe

But you don't like me, so I'll keep that in mind. If you don't like me, it's more likely that you'll lean toward assuming the worst.

But I like my friend. If I compare you to my friend, you seem less threatening, amirite?

Would it help you to know that this friend is also my love interest?

1/18/2009 . Edited 1/18/2009 #1,564
Saber Apricot

Would it help you to know that this friend is also my love interest?

For this situation? No. But, that's interesting. How long have you had feelings with her? Does she know? I was originally just really good friends with my boyfriend. ...We've been dating for almost 5 years now.

1/18/2009 #1,565
Venomous Woe

How long have you had feelings with her? Does she know?

Ever since last year. I haven't asked her out largely because she has a boyfriend.

And yes, she knows. When I approached her and told her that I liked her, she said that she already knew. O_o

1/18/2009 #1,566
Saber Apricot

Hmm, I have a friend kind of seriously dating another friend and she had a major crush on him for at least 3 years and he knew but didn't say anything. He dated a couple people, I guess. Then they started to date when they were in college.

I'd say there can be hope, because boyfriends and girlfriends can come and go. But holding out and waiting on her isn't necessarily fair to you either. I bet you've been thinking about it though and probably aren't really looking for advice on it. Love affairs can be complicated; there can be so much to consider.

1/18/2009 #1,567
Venomous Woe

I bet you've been thinking about it though and probably aren't really looking for advice on it.

Nah. I don't really need any advice. I've said that (not her but elsewhere) that if she were to come to me, it would be by her own will. I plan to stick to that. I've left the door open, but it's up to her to decide whether or not to come in.

Still, it is tempting to romance her. I have one hell of a crush on her. *thump thump*

1/18/2009 #1,568
IsaacSapphire

Elliot: Honestly, I'd sit tight for a few months and see what happens. If your fetish isn't a big-name one and is something that can be practiced quietly, there's a good chance that no one will even think to legislate it. Obama does seem to have a bit of a Socialist bent, which could translate into laws that apply to every facet of society. Republicans can tend to mix a little with Libertarians, who have more of a live-and-let-live philosophy and prefer minimal legislation on anything. Of course, Republicans also tend to hang out with the Religious Right, which doesn't like any sort of sex.

I've found that Democrats tend to be a little NIMBY about things. ie. they say interracial couples are fine, but flip when their daughter brings home a black guy.

You could also try being proactive and joining or forming a political lobby for your fetish or fetishes in general. Of course, that would involve standing up in public, quite possibly including television cameras, and saying that you like being tied up or whatever, which could ruin your career, get you put in jail, and alienate your family.

I've been waiting for the yaoi moral panic for years and it still hasn't happened.

1/18/2009 #1,569
Saber Apricot

Still, it is tempting to romance her. I have one hell of a crush on her. *thump thump*

I've heard that "all's fair in love and war." Hmm...

1/18/2009 #1,570
Venomous Woe

I've heard that "all's fair in love and war." Hmm...

Somehow I don't think trying to get her to break up with her boyfriend will earn me her affection. XP

Anyway, in the interest of productivity, I'm finally getting around to making a new avatar. Don't get me wrong, this one's nice, and I think it's the best one I've done yet. But, I think it's time to play around with Photoshop again. XD

1/18/2009 #1,571
IsaacSapphire

*twitch*

This is all reminding me too much of a situation where one of my casual friends had a crush on me. It did not end well, mostly in relation to me and my family, not me and my other friends. It was probably not how I wanted my first "relationship" with a girl to go. All it did was make me take girls and put them all in the 'not safe' category along with boys and to emphasize my fears that girls who like girls are all over-politicized, fat, and ugly. And stupid and selfish.

You will note that I'm not using the L-world here. There's a very good reason for that. I feel that there are things associated with 'lesbianism' that go far beyond what sex you are attracted to, things like feminazism and flannel shirts, things I'm not really into. Also, by definition, a lesbian is a GIRL who likes girls, and I'm not so cool with seeing myself as a girl.

And yes, I know rationally that most lesbians are nothing like... blablabla. I've just never met all those skinny non-politicized lesbians.

1/18/2009 #1,572
Wildcard999

Read all of the relative posts before jumping in.

I had read that post, and I have very little time to respond here anyway. If you are asking me why he asked if you thought psychology was laughable, it's because the way you spoke it sounded like you thought all people had to do was get over themselves and that getting therapy was just a waste of time and opporitunities to throw pity parties for themselves. Which I was actually wondering the same thing. Just jaded by it's abuse then?

You're not sorry, don't apologize if you don't mean it.

I am sorry for hurting you, but you have to realize that I think you have been getting out of line and I want you to stop. If that means talking to you in your own language, so be it.

VW didn't mention being insensitive.

He didn't say it explicitly, but he did say you came off as disdainful and combative. When I say insensitive, I mean 'not considering the feelings of others; speaking without accounting for the reaction others will have'. I thought that was the meaning because most of my words I've learned in context, not from a dictionary.

And giving kind and gentle words won't snap a person out of their funk.

Sometimes the shock of a harsh reality does more harm than good to someone, especially when they are living in a different reality than the rest of us. Mostly, if you haven't been able to see it, you are just driving him further into his shell. It's like dragging a terrified cat out of the cat carrier into a strange and scary place; if the cat doesn't turn around and race back in, he'll dart off into another direction, never to be seen again.

You "sense" it or you "imagine" it?

Don't do that. It's there, trust me. VW may be more sensitive to stuff like that, but as strongly as he has been reacting, it has to be present. How many other people has he continually reacted this way to?

You mentioned not writing your posts with hate in your heart, but I haven't accused you of that, and I'm not so sure VW is completely behind that either. Mostly he just sounds like he feels some kind of negative feeling that hurts him and he can't identify it. Me, it sounds as though you just want to prove your point and make us see your side; you want to win. I think he feels the passion in your posts and it hurts him because he's met a few too many who accompanied that with hate. And me too, actually. It riles me when someone is so focused on making me see their side that seem to forget to watch the other sides of the argument for anything but attacks on their own so they can reform it's defence. We both get the feeling you aren't listening to us for anything more than the next rebuttal.

VW: I would like to ask you not to speak on my behalf. I may not have used the word "insensitive", but I do sense a cold, chilling aura emanating from your words. I'm slightly inclined to agree with Darkwinter.

I don't think she meant to put words in your mouth so much as take the ones I have put there out. She had no ill intent toward you. Thanks though.

Neither do we expect you to understand us.

I'm kind of hoping she will, but it's possible there are aspects to her side I've missed. I'm trying very hard to see but my profiling skills aren't what they used to be.

Isaac: If you're not white, there's nothing to worry about.

Why should white people worry? What'd I miss? Is it all white people or just racists/old white conservatives?

I don't see how his fetish can be outlawed; it should be protected by the Bill of Rights since it's a concenting fetish that doesn't inherently violate anyone's rights.

Btw, I am currently firmly entrenched in my sexual disorentation and he realized there is no real reason to get out of it. I don't instantly identify with either sex and daydream about being with both, sometimes switching from one to the other in the space of only a few minutes or even seconds. It's gotten real bad this time, but I'm not afraid or bothered by it. Can anyone think of a reason leaving this to get as bad as it'll get could bite me in the butt? I have no thoughts of getting a boy/girlfriend or even having sex with a real person for a few more years, so relationships is a non-issue.

Oh yeah, and not all lesbians act like guys. Like with gays, there are masculine and feminine lesbians. There has to be a guy and a girl in every relationship, regardless of the participating genders.

Elliot: people who support homosexual marriage are adverse to sexual fetishes.

That makes no sense to me. There is no corrolation between the two, and there are actually a much wider range of fetishes than you think. I have a superhero fetish (I assume that's a fetish; I never actually looked up the definition though).

You know, I just realized that I see no reason that necrophelia should be discouraged so long as the normal rules of society apply. Which means that making corpses to have sex with is a no no, but it's not as though the dead body has any more real value than a dead tree. There's no one there!

1/18/2009 #1,573
IsaacSapphire

"Isaac: If you're not white, there's nothing to worry about.

Why should white people worry? What'd I miss? Is it all white people or just racists/old white conservatives?

I don't see how his fetish can be outlawed; it should be protected by the Bill of Rights since it's a concenting fetish that doesn't inherently violate anyone's rights.

Oh yeah, and not all lesbians act like guys. Like with gays, there are masculine and feminine lesbians. There has to be a guy and a girl in every relationship, regardless of the participating genders."

I knew I was going to regret saying that. The thing about not needing to worry if you weren't white was kind of a joke.

Anal sex between married (heterosexual) couples in the privacy of their own home was illegal in many states for many years. It's quite possible to... reinterpret the Constitution if it's inconvenient.

It's not an issue of lesbians acting like guys at all. If they all acted like guys that'd be great by me. The problem is that they act like girls, all bitchy and all psycho feminists. I have no problem with non-psycho feminists, it's just that I'm in favor of Equal rights, not giving women more rights than men. That and there's the whole being against abortion thing, which just goes over great. I've got my reasons, but I don't feel like starting another fight on here, so PM me if anyone wants to talk about that. Suffice it to say that my politics don't match the required beliefs to be a lesbian.

1/18/2009 #1,574
Saber Apricot

I am sorry for hurting you, but you have to realize that I think you have been getting out of line...

I've told you this before, I think... When you apologize for something and then follow it with an excuse, trying to justify why you did it, then you're not really sorry (there's no genuine regret). You're lying. You're just apologizing to save face or you don't understand what you're saying.

You mentioned not writing your posts with hate in your heart, but I haven't accused you of that, and I'm not so sure VW is completely behind that either. Mostly he just sounds like he feels some kind of negative feeling that hurts him and he can't identify it. Me, it sounds as though you just want to prove your point and make us see your side; you want to win. I think he feels the passion in your posts and it hurts him because he's met a few too many who accompanied that with hate. And me too, actually. It riles me when someone is so focused on making me see their side that seem to forget to watch the other sides of the argument for anything but attacks on their own so they can reform it's defence. We both get the feeling you aren't listening to us for anything more than the next rebuttal.

You said that you don't think that I've been writing anything while feeling hateful. Then you make an excuse that VW cannot figure out this bad feeling his has, that he can't identify it. Um, not going to argue whether or not that's actually true, but you're saying it is, but that would mean that he's imagining the anger in my posts (also because you said it's not there). Then you say that he's misinterpreting the "passion" in my posts as hate, giving the excuse that it's because he's had so many bad experiences with people who were hateful. And then you say you're suffering from the same bias from bad past experience with other people that were angry. So, you're basically explaining with whatever excuses that it's imagined, but totally not you or VW's fault, but possibly mine. I think you need to rephrase this, because that's probably not what you meant. You've contradicted yourself a couple times. It's confusing. You can't stay something and then have you explanation and excuses say something completely different and expect someone to accept that.

When I think I'm right, I think I'm right, so I'm arguing it...But I don't necessarily expect to "win." And I'm glad to change or edit my opinion if there is enough legit reasoning and evidense that says I'm wrong. There's no point in clinging to opinions that don't make sense, I won't find comfort in trying to pretend that I'm right if I know that I'm not. And I don't mind if you disagree with me, I don't mind if you hate me. But if you argue with me and I think you're wrong, I'll argue back, I don't mind debating. If you say something that doesn't make sense, there's a chance that I'll point that out. If you contradict yourself when arguing/debating/disagreeing with me, I'm probably going to point it out. ...I don't mind discussing or debating a topic. It's a good way to get to better know the other (and one's one) opinion.

I'm kind of hoping she will, but it's possible there are aspects to her side I've missed. I'm trying very hard to see but my profiling skills aren't what they used to be.

I'm hoping that dissecting that excerpt of yours above helps explain why I'm having a hard time agreeing with you or understanding you. To me, it doesn't make sense, there are too many contradictions. I feel like you're reluctant to take responsibility for your mindset and what you've previously written. The excuses make me think that. In no way am I responsible for the bad experiences you've had with other people. I did not make those people approach you in an angry and heated matter. If past experiences from other people have clouded your judgment, you need to take responsibility and deal with it. In no way does it excuse you projecting your biases onto other people. That's like disliking a person because he looks like some other guy that bullied you in school. It doesn't make disliking the guy anymore okay. ...Do you understand what I'm saying? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to imply you're a bad person.

1/19/2009 #1,575
Saber Apricot

It was probably not how I wanted my first "relationship" with a girl to go. All it did was make me take girls and put them all in the 'not safe' category along with boys and to emphasize my fears that girls who like girls are all over-politicized, fat, and ugly. And stupid and selfish.

I've met a couple lesbians like that, but it varies. There are stereotypes for a reason, some people do fit the mold. But, I've been hit on by some pretty cute girls at the mall during my college years. My boyfriend was confused by strangers as my big brother, because we're not clingy, for a long while we didn't use pet names, and I look a couple years younger than him even though I'm a bit older (I'm 24 and still pass for a high school student, it can cause all kinds of problems).

I wouldn't worry about the lesbian stereotype/stigma too much. Cute ones exist and most people know it.

This is all reminding me too much of a situation where one of my casual friends had a crush on me. It did not end well, mostly in relation to me and my family, not me and my other friends.

I've got a story:

One guy from a couple classes had a crush on me. I'd been dating my boyfriend for about a year, he knew I had a boyfriend, but just because I was civil with him, he thought he had a shot. It was weird, because I had class with him and one of his gal pals and she was much more chummy with him than I was (which makes sense because they were actually friends). When he gave me a strange complement in a tone different from how he normally chatted with me, I'd remind him that I've got a boyfriend and I'm not interested, because we weren't even good friends. He'd agree and pretend that he totally understood.

Then, at some school get-together, he saw my boyfriend being affectionate with me (my boyfriend was hugging me from behind or somehting simple like that), I saw that he saw and he looked pissed. I just returned his hurt face with a frown. How many times did I tell him and he still ignored it all?

So after that, he was rude and gave me the cold shoulder, treating me like I had ran over his pet dog on purpose. His gal friend in our class asked what was up (since we sat together in the same area and it was obvious he was pissed) and I told her. She rolled her eyes and told me that he always does that. He's done it with her in the past and she has a boyfriend and he's done it to other girls that were his friends. Well, I figured to just let him be mad, it was his own fault. Apparently it brought back bad memories and the gal pal was kind of in the "screw him" mode for a couple days.

And later, I heard from more girls, from different classes that knew him, that same thing happened to them. They brought it up, hearing from mutual friends (can gossip spread or what?). I really didn't care to mention it to anyone, because I didn't think it was a big deal, and I still don't understand who told whom what. But it seemed to piss off the girls who experienced the same thing with him all over again. They were pretty offended that he handled being rejected, even if he was warned, the way he did.

From what I heard from the other girls that complained about it, not only was he rude to them, but it caused all kinds of trouble amongst their friends, because many of those girls shared the same friends with him (a lot of them were in the anime club). It can bring so much chaos to a social group. And damage like that is hard to mend. Clearly people were still bitter about it.

1/19/2009 #1,576
IsaacSapphire

I'd thought she was the sort of person who could handle rejection ok, so I didn't tear into her verbally like I was tempted to, not at first. Not until almost a year later, after she had effectively outed me to my entire family, excepting my father (and only because he's almost literally retarded) by her caviler idiocy. Then I told her that she was being a selfish b*tch and to never talk to me again.

I know lesbians aren't all fat and ugly. My cousin and her girlfriend are both pretty hot. The main issue for me is the political baggage. That and I'm just freaked out by girls.

1/19/2009 #1,577
Artemis Mitera

I know lesbians aren't all fat and ugly. My cousin and her girlfriend are both pretty hot. The main issue for me is the political baggage. That and I'm just freaked out by girls.

What freaks you out by them? Aren't you a girl? They are you, just shown differently.

Besides, fuck political baggage. All it'll do is make you see how people really are if they really want to judge you by that.

1/19/2009 #1,578
IsaacSapphire

Sure I'm a girl, but that just means I have to sit down to pee. They are all... *girly*. I mean, they wear makeup and do it right and flowered dressesand they're pretty and it's like there's this whole secret code and they talk and... they scare me! I don't know how to predict what they'll do, except that at least some of them will try to take advantage to me at least some of the time. I'm not very good at being logical about this...

1/19/2009 #1,579
Artemis Mitera

Aww, maybe they are like that where you are, but in other places, not all girls are so girly. I have many friends that are bi and they aren't girly girly. Yeah, they wear make up but they do things like any boy would, work on cars, paint, drink beer with them. They just know how to dress and not let themselves go. I'm sure if you go hunting into the unlikely people, you'll find girls to your liking.

What would be your type?

1/19/2009 #1,580
PikaYoshiGirl

Oh, Isaac! I feel your pain. I told Red Panda Bear about a similar problem I was having with a girl who hits on me in school and at the mall.

Actually, a lot of girls do it. Hit on each other. I was raised by guys and video games, so I didn't understand why they did it. Then once, this random girl I didn't even know calls me sexy, and that scares me. It's creepy when a guy does it, but a girl? That's even worse, unless they're your friend and they're complimenting you.

I'm just glad I lived on the guy spectrum of childhood. I had only one close friend who was a girl, and we were into pokemon and that stuff. We could actually have fun with that kind of stuff, instead of fumbling with each others hair.

1/19/2009 #1,581
IsaacSapphire

Maybe part of it is that I really haven't knowingly known too many lesbian or bi girls. Most of the ones who go around wearing freaking signs are a little politicized, but of course the sort of people who would go around wearing signs are.

I'm still a little new to this (only a few years really) so I'm still kind of just looking around and trying to figure out what I want. Physical elements seem to have some consistant points, but the really weird thing is that the girls who really get me going (the ones that I'm really tempted to go all crazy over) are ones who could totaly kick my butt at something that matters to me or at least give me a run for my money, the ones who are smart. Of course, that's the same personality that attracts me to a guy. Just, you know, without boobs.

Part of the issue is that I'm really scared of loosing control and it seems like the only way I'm going to get to hold the control in a relationship is to have that relationship with a girl.

1/19/2009 #1,582
Artemis Mitera

What got this fear started?

1/19/2009 #1,583
PikaYoshiGirl

I have the same fear. I'm scared of being rejected by a guy. Sadly, this is because I already have been once, and I just got my crush...taken...normally, this wouldn't hurt. It's just that someone squealed that I liked this guy, and bam: the person I hate post took him.

1/19/2009 #1,584
IsaacSapphire

It's not the getting hit on that bothers me. Heck, I like it in a way, especially if the other person is cute. It's the not leaving me the heck alone when I've made clear that I'm not interested thing that's the problem.

"What got this fear started?"

I don't think I've had a positive relationship with a female in my life. I kind of got relationaly screwed over when I was a kid, and part of how it all went down involved destroying any chance of my ever having a friend in that area. And then my parents didn't move. A few other people kicked my on the way down, making sure that the few other potential outlets I had were closed off. So I didn't have a decent chance at female friends between the ages of six and eighteen. I finally got to college and escaped the history, but I had no experience in dealing with female relational styles or even feminin stuff.

Basically, at best I totaly don't understand girls. At worst, they're all out to hurt me and I can't defend myself.

1/19/2009 #1,585
PikaYoshiGirl

How do you think I feel? I go to an all-girls school.

1/19/2009 #1,586
IsaacSapphire

Eeee. I made very sure to avoid that.

1/19/2009 #1,587
PikaYoshiGirl

Oh, I didn't choose. My mom made me. She said any public school taught 'satanists.'

My family is a bunch of wierdoes.

And of course I get hit on a lot. . Eeeeeks!

1/19/2009 #1,588
IsaacSapphire

I'm sorry, but that's hilarious. They save you from 'satanists' only to hand you over to crazed lesbian schoolgirls. That is so the sort of thing that my parents would have done.

1/19/2009 #1,589
PikaYoshiGirl

You know what hurts me? Friends that don't care.

Let's say you have issues with something in your life, and it's practically ripping you apart.

You turn to a friend for help, by calling them up.

Now, a real friend offers you advice or comes over(if they live nearby) and asks you whats wrong.

A shitty friend texts you with one letter: "Y?" Gee, thats showing some caring emotion there. Its as if they have no time for you. I feel like I'm talking to a broken record. Repeated phrases include:

"I no" What?

"That sux" Well, no shit.

"Haha/Lol" What's so funny?

"Nice" Are you trying to be cool? You fail.

I hate people who don't show any emotion or even a care, like "I hope you feel better." Even something a simple as that could let me know someone is thinking about me.

1/19/2009 #1,590
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