Questions about Middle Earth
This forum is for those with question's about Tolkien's world and those who wish to answer them. Thus, we can all help each other better our writting and understanding of the Canon.
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Elariel Erestorion
Here is a place to ask questions about Numenor, Arnor and Gondor.
12/22/2005 #1
Kendoka Girl
Am I correct in thinking that some of the Nazgul and the Mouth of Sauron were Numenorean?
1/5/2006 #2
Elariel Erestorion
Some of the the Nazgul as well as the Mouth of Sauron were black Numenorean yes. I don't think all the ring wraiths were however.
1/6/2006 #3
What were the three kingdoms that Arnor split up into again? Arthedain, Cardolan, and what was the other one?
1/7/2006 #4
Rhudaur, in the northeast.
1/8/2006 #5
Wordmage Kazzidae
Why was it that all the Numenoreans died out and became the Rangers? Perhaps I should call them the Dunedain.
3/18/2006 . Edited 3/18/2006 #6
Elariel Erestorion
Numenoreans, were the people of Numenor. However Numenor was destroyed before the end of the second age. This tale can be found in the Akallebeth in the Silmarillion as well as in Unfinished Tales. To Middle-Earth came only the people of the Andunie, those who were called the faithful and had remained elf-friends. Their leaders were Elendil and his sons Isidur and Anarion. At sea the fleet was split and some came to the south with Isildur and Anarion and the rest to the north with Elendil. In the south Isildur and Anarion formed the country of Gondor which Once extended from Orthanc in the west to Mordor in the east, from the bay of Belfalas in the south to the Argonath in the North. In the North Elendil who was welcomed by Gil-Galad, King of the elves made his realm of Arnor where he dwelt although he is accounted as High King of both Arnor and Gondor. With Sauron's reappearance Gil-Galad and Elendil along with his sons formed the Last Alliance, and went to war against Mordor. I won't go into more detail except to say that in that war fell Gil-Galad the last High King of the Noldor upon Middle-Earth for of that blood line after his death dwelt only Galadriel, Elrond and Celebrian. Elendil fell and so did his son Anarion. After the defeat of Sauron the rule of Gondor was given to Anarion's son Meneldil and Isildur was intent on going to the north to rule the kingdom of Arnor. Isildur would never make it to the north for at the Galaden Fields his company was ambushed and Isildur was slain. Few came to the north from that battle among them was Ohtar, whom Isildur had instructed to take the shareds for Narsil and escape taking them to Imladris. And thus the news came to Isildur's wife and his last living child Valandil who had been a child when his father had left for war. Valandil it was then who took the rule of Arnor eight years after his fathers death. in year 10 of the third age. After the death of King Earendur of Arnor, the north Kingdom was divided as is seen above amongst his three sons, this was in the year 891 of the third age. War later insues amonst the three kingdoms and eventually only in Arthedain does a true heir of Isildur remain living. In the year 1409 the Witch-king of Angmar invades Arnor and again the weakened Northern Kingdom in thrown into tulmult. In the year 1974 the Witch-King overruns Artherdain and Fornost the capital is destroyed. Help arrives from Gondor and the Witch-King is driven out of Arthedain and across the Ettenmores, he disappears from the North. However the line of the Northern Kings is not ended for Aranarth son of Arvendui last King of Arnor yet lived. He called himself the Cheftain of the Dunedain and the heirlooms of the North Kingdom are given into the keeping of Elrond half-elven. And so the years past in the North. Down the long line for the next thousand years and some from father to son was past the title of Cheftian. Yet the cheftain was in direct descent the heir of Isildur. In the south trouble began with an invasion of Easterlings in 490 of the third age, and then through civil war (1432), Corsair attacks (1634), plague (1636) wainrider attacks (1851-1944) and the fall of Minas Ithil (2002), along with other troubles inbetween the line of the Kings of Gondor ends when Earnur the last King challanges the Witch-King and is lost (he was warned against such a move by Glorfindel who told him that the Witch-King's fate would not be dealt by the hands of a man). And thus the only remaining heir of Elendil were the cheftains of the Dunedain in the north and the people of Numendur had begun to dieing out through millenia of struggle with the Shadow. It would not be until the crowning of Elessar Telcontar that another man would take the title that Elendil himself had last bourn, high King of Gondor and Arnor.
3/18/2006 #7
Elariel Erestorion
In Unfinished Tales it says that Aldarion was the Numenorian King who began sending ships back to Middle-Earth. Does this mean that during Elros's time as king he did not have any contact with the elves in Middle-Earth, of whom his own twin was one?
4/18/2006 #8
I suspect that the Elves probably sent ships to Numenor for a while, and not the other way around. The Elves, at least for a time, must have had superior ships. But I'm not sure. Interesting question.
4/18/2006 #9
Elariel Erestorion
Would they not have had the ships on which they had sailed to Numenor in the first place?
4/20/2006 #10
I guess that makes sense. Maybe there was some kind of land bridge, that eventually went away? I've always wondered how Elros ended up ruling a group of humans anyway. Did they ask him to be their king, or did he marry their queen, or what?
8/11/2006 #11
mmmm. Sounds interesting.
9/1/2006 #12
Elariel Erestorion
Elros was the son of Earendil. Earendil's father Tuor was by right the heir to the chieftenship of the Third house of the Edain. Elros' mother was Elwing. Elwing's father was Dior Eluchil. Dior's father was Beren son of the Chieftain of the First House of the Edain. Thus Elros and Elrond were the only remaining descendants of the remaining two noble houses of the Edain at the end of the War of Wrath. Elrond chose fate of the Elder children of Illuvatar a right he had from both his paternal grandmother Idril Princess of Gondolin and from his Maternal great-grandmother Luthien Princess of Doriath. Elros chose the fate of men. When Beleriand was sunk after the war of Rath the Valar awarded those men who chose the side of the elves the island of Numenor. And Yuhi they did sail to Numenor it is stated in the HoME books somewhere. Back to the topic of Elros. He was given the Kingship of the Edain in Numenor and a life span of 500 years when he chose the fate of men. It was both that he was of the proper famillies and a gift from Valar.
9/2/2006 #13
I have some questions.... do we know the names of the nazguls? what counries did they rule? And what countries are they today (as in the time of the war of the ring..)What powers they possed from their rings? Who excatly were the Dead? Did they have any part whatsoever (except in the battle for gondor)in the battle of the war of the ring? Does it mention in the Simmie (sorry for the abreviation, I'm not a good speller) the lanuage they used? Who made Isildur's sword? Who made the Evenstar (the pendant Arwen gave to Aragorn?) Do we know the names of the elven smiths that gave Sauron the knowlegde (sp) to make the one ring. Did they die? And How? What is Erestor's past? Does anyone know anything about him? And Glorfie? What about him? And was Islidur married? Ever? Did he have kids? What were the names of the countries in those times? What countries are they today? I'm sorry for all these questions, but I don't have the Simme. If I did I would be much better at this sort of stuff!
9/3/2006 #14
I can answer a few of those questions. [q]Do we know the names of the elven smiths that gave Sauron the knowlegde (sp) to make the one ring. Did they die? And How?[/q] Actually, no Elf gave Sauron the knowledge to make the one ring. He was an incredibly powerful Maia, and knew more about metal-working than any Elf or Man. He ended up teaching the Elves how to make magical rings, just so that he could corrupt them. Unfortunately for him, they weren't easily corrupted, and figured out what he was doing the moment he put on his own ring. Then they fled from him. An Elf named Celebrimbor was very accepting of Sauron, and they probably worked together. He was killed when Sauron's forces invaded his lands. Tolkien didn't go into the details of *how* he died, though. [q]What is Erestor's past?[/q] Erestor doesn't have a past. You can make one up. [q]And was Islidur married? Ever? Did he have kids?[/q] Isildur was married, and had four sons. Three of his sons died at the same time he did - when he was ambushed by orcs and tried to use the Ring to escape. Isildur's youngest son, Valandil, had been in Rivendell at the time, being raised by the Elves, and he became King after his father.
9/4/2006 #15
thank you so much! But about the elves..... wasn't Feanor a smith? There was a war for his sim... sim... simiralls..... right? (I'm a bit confused on my facts.) And, did the Valar ever take human/animal form? If so, what form would they take?
9/4/2006 #16
Hmm, you're probably right. Fëanor probably could have matched, or even surpassed, Sauron's skill. But Fëanor was dead by the point Sauron showed up, teaching the Elves how to make rings, so Sauron would have been better than any Elf or Man still living. There was an awful lot of bloodshed caused by people trying to get their hands on Fëanor’s silmarils. There was never really a war because of them, though. The war was a result of Melkor trying to take over the world, and various people trying to oppose him. The Valar Manwë, Mandos, Lórien, Aulë, Ulmo, Oromë , and Tulkas would take the form of men, and the Valar Varda, Yavanna, Estë, Nienna, Vairë, Nessa and Vána (these seven also known as the Valier) would take the form of women. Yavanna occasionally took the shape of a tree, and I'm sure any of the Valar could have appeared as animals if they wanted to do so. In regard to their physical form: Varda is really, really beautiful. Ulmo, when he takes shape, is described as 'a mounting wave that strides to the land, with dark helm foam-crested and raiment of mail shimmering from silver down into shadows of green'. As a woman, Yavanna is tall and wears green, but 'she takes other shapes. Some there are who have seen her standing like a tree under heaven, crowned with the Sun; and from all its branches there spilled a golden dew upon the barren earth, and it grew green with corn'. Estë wears grey. Tulkas is very strong. He has golden hair and a beard, and ruddy skin. Oromë is distinctive because he rides a white horse, known as Nahar.
9/5/2006 #17
Okay, know I'm actually starting to get the Valar..... next question....... (drumroll please) Where the dundedain always known as rangers, or did some people know they where descendants of numenor....
9/5/2006 #18
and yet another question : in elvish, tel- before or after means come or something of that sort. Where did this word come from?Wouldn't Tel be a god (Valar) of travel? Oh, and on that note, what powers do the valar have? Who is married to who?
9/5/2006 #19
Elariel Erestorion
There are fourteen Valar: Manwe, Varda, Ulmo, Aule, Yavanna, Mandos, Vaire, Orome, Lorien, Tulkas, Nienna, Este, Nesta, and Vana Manwe: Lord of the Winds of Arda. He is the Lord of all the Valar. Varda: Also known as Elbereth Gilthoniel. Queen of the Stars, she is Manwe's spouse and the Valar most beloved by the elves. Ulmo: Lord of Waters. Rules the seas. Aule: Is the Master of Crafts and is a Smith. It is he who constructed the soils of Arda. Yavanna: Lady of growing things. She is queen of the flora and fauna of Arda. Spouse to Aule Mandos: Lord of the Halls of the dead, his actual name is Namo. One of the Feanturi, masters of Spirits. Vaire: Weaves all things that occure through out time into her story webs. She is the spouse of Namo. Lorien; Lord of Dreams, his real name is Irmo. The other of the Feanturi. Este: A gentel healer and Irmo's spouse brings comfort to those who came to Lorien for healing. Nienna: Sister to the Feanturi and more powerful then Este. She grieves for all the hurts that Arda takes. Tulkas: He came to earth to aid in the fight agianst Morgoth when Arda was first being prepared for the arrival of the elder children. He is a great warrior. Nessa: She is like a deer running wild over the plans of Aman. She is sister to Orome the hunter and spouse to Tulkas. Orome: The Hunter of all fell beast and lover of dogs and horses. From his horse Nahar the Mearas of the Rohirrim were said to have been decendant. The Rohirrim call him Bema. Vana: She is as the spring, ever young. She is the younger sister of Yavanna and the spouse of Orome. This is an over view of the fourteen Valar, the high Angels and guardians of Arda. There are also the Maiar, the lesser Angelic race. They are the servants and helpers of the Valar. There number is not recorded but the following were known to the children of Illuvatar. Ilmare: Handmaiden of Arda Eonwe: Herald of Manwe Osse: Servant of Ulmo, he delights in storms Uinen: Lady of the seas, spouse of Osse and the only one who can calm his rages. Uinen is revered by all sailors. Olorin: He was not known to the children of Illuvatar until the third age durin which he played a great part in the final downfall of Sauron Melian: Fell in love with the Elven king Elu Thingol. She bore him a daughter named Luthien Tinuviel. For more information see the Valaquenta in the Silmarillion
9/6/2006 #20
Elariel Erestorion
As to your question about the pre/suffix Tel you would have to check the etimology section of the Lost Road. I can't find my copy.
9/6/2006 #21
To answer some of your earlier questions... [q]Who made Isildur's sword? Who made the Evenstar (the pendant Arwen gave to Aragorn?)[/q] In the book, Arwen's pendant is mentioned once, and never called the Evenstar. 'She took a white gem like a star that lay upon her b*** hanging upon a silver chain, and she set the chain about Frodo's neck.' (RotK, Chapter Title: Many Partings) I don't think we're ever told who made it; but probably many Elves would have had the talent to have done so. Isildur's sword never did anything special, so I don't really know anything about it. It was Elendil's sword, Narsil, as wielded by Isildur, that chopped the Ring from Sauron's hand. Narsil was made in the First Age by a Dwarf named Telchar, from Nogrod. It ended up in Númenor, and was passed down to Elendil, who brought it to Middle-earth. [q]And Glorfie? What about him?[/q] All we *really* know about Glorfindel is that he is 'the son of princes' and has lived in Valinor. Some speculate that the Rivendell-Glorfindel is the same as the Glorfindel from Gondolin, who bravely died killing a balrog. This theory means that Glorfindel would have had to be reborn and sent back to Middle-earth, but such things have happened. It seems that Tolkien considered having Glorfindel be from Gondolin, though not, perhaps, as the THE Glorfindel, Slayer of Balrogs.
9/6/2006 #22
my dear sir or lady... I don't have these books (I'm not allowed to. otherwize i'd be retarded...... )well thank all of you for anwesring my valar question but please help with the other questions!
9/6/2006 #23
Elariel Erestorion
The jewel that Arwen gives Frodo is one of the symbols of the North Kingdom. I can't remember off the top of my head what it was called. Also, the Evenstar of the movie takes the place of the Elessar from which Aragorn gets his royal name in the book. the Elessar was a green jewel created by Celembrimbor.
9/7/2006 #24
I know Elrond has the ring Nenya/Ninya*... is named after anyone? anyhing? lot of questions i know...... Is Tar-Elindi/Elindi/Ilindi* the same person who gaurds morgoth in the endless hole (it has i anem I knwo.. I can't remmeber it...) or is he Earindel... (something like that) *anything with a star is my lanauge.. or Cai's actually.... but Me and him invented it! (It's the lanuage of the dead...personally...)
9/7/2006 #25
Nope, Elrond does not have Nenya, Galadriel has Nenya. I guess all Elven rings of power were simply named after the element they governed, nen means water. But Elariel or someone else might know better, I haven't read the books for many years now.
9/8/2006 #26
Elariel Erestorion
Elrond's ring Vilya the ring of saphire was the ring of healing. Which increases Elrond's ability to heal. The ring was originally give to Gil-galad. It is linked to air. Galadriel has the ring Nenya the ring of adament. It is the ring of making. It allows Galadriel to keep Lothlorien as it was in the past. It is linked to water. The third ring Narya the ring of ruby. The power of this ring is to insite courage in people. At the time of the War of the Ring it was held by Gandalf but had originally been given to the shipwright Cirdan. It is the ring of fire. Although each ring was linked to one of the ancient elements their powers are not limited to those elements.
9/8/2006 #27
Well, I thought it rather this way that "elements" is a philosophical concept which means so much more than the corresponding thing in our real life. You can think of it as "essential quality". For example, when you speak of "inciting courage", I believe if not in English, then in many other languages the corresponding phrases still have to do with "starting up a fire". Inflame is still one of the synonyms of "incite". So this quality of Narya still has a lot to do with the element of fire. Similarly, just as water feeds and nurtures all life, in fact life started in water, so it is the same quality of the "water element" that Nenya exhibits.
9/8/2006 #28
Elariel Erestorion
Yes you have a point there.
9/12/2006 #29
ummm, a little lost here........
9/12/2006 #30
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