We all know that pieceing together the zelda series is complicated and stange, so does anyone have their own ideas on how some of this stuff come together? Also, for fun, bring up anything that just doesn't make sence.
Like if a Kokori can't grow up, how did they reach the age of a child?2/3/2009 #1
League, please introduce yourself in the Introduction thread.2/4/2009 #2
LOL so true! Maybe they were created in their child forms...
I love talking about Zelda theories, but seriously dude, it starts so many arguments...
It's like with Naruto... the wars can be pre-tty brutal.
As long as everyone promises to be civilised...4/13/2009 #3
Hey, I promise as long as we got something to talk or think about. And for forum flame wars, I find it funny because people get worked up over dumb stuff. Yet I wont start one or fan the fire.
Anyways, your turn.4/13/2009 #4
Wicked, we can get started then...
Seeing as I was talking about the Shadow Temple somewhere else, let's talk about the temples in OoT, excluding the Temple of Light/Time because its purposes have been mentioned and insinuated clearly. Also, I read on ZeldaWiki that it was built to house five of the seven sages. Since I'm not sure about its credibility, I thought about it...
I've played through the game many times... but the last time I completed it was about two years ago, so I might have forgotten stuff.
(The ones I find particularly mysterious are the Shadow and Forest temples)
Forest Temple: It looks more like an abandoned castle. I wonder if someone lived there once? The Poe Sisters are also very interesting for me. I wonder if they were maids that died there? Or created to "test" one who enters the temple? Were they designed to protect it?
Fire Temple: From what I remember, its purpose hasn't been mentioned, but I'm guessing it could be a sealing place for Volvagia (because it's possible that he died there), or just simply a place of worship.
Water Temple: Like in TP's Lakebed Temple, how it is a place of worship for the Zoras, it's probably the same story for the Water Temple.
Shadow Temple: The spirits there just tell you it houses/represents the history of the gore and hatred of Hyrule. I mean, torture devices in a temple? I've always been intrigued by the Shadow Temple. I wonder if it has anything to do with the Imprisoning War.
Spirit Temple: Apparently it's still in use- like a parliament house.
So here are some questions I asked myself:
WHY were they built- probably as a place of worship for each race, since there are six races in the game (Hylian, Kokiri, Goron, Zora, Sheikah and Gerudo). It may also have something to do with testing the hero, but that makes no sense because the characters talk about how it's not usually infested with monsters (like with Jabu-Jabu's Belly, but he's not a Temple by any means) and that Ganondorf "curses" them.
WHO built them- my bet would be on the Ancient Sages or members of each race. It all depends on when they were built.
WHEN they were built- Probably very early on, if it is a place of worship for each race...
What do you guys think? Er, sorry for the long post. I kinda ranted. Am I thinking too little or too much?4/13/2009 . Edited 4/13/2009 #5
First things first. One: you did not rant, only brought up good questions. Two: you cant really over think this. In fact, what you brought up is great.
Forest Temple: You said "I wonder if someone lived there once?" and "I read on ZeldaWiki that it was built to house five of the seven sages...." That could be the best answer, as a place of worship or as a fortress, a place for protection. As for the poe sisters, maybe they where mages or something and turned evil and corrupt. They also might of resided in the shadow temple at one point in time too. It could also be as simple as something Gannandor(k) created.
Fire Temple: I always thought it was a prison/memorial.
Water Temple: Just a place of worship, or also a prison (I say that for the boss as I dont know the history behind 'it').
Shadow Temple: Probably not only used for the war, but to house some of the most dangerous criminals of their time. Plus, there has to be something else they're not telling us about (Its way to big and complex for a underground laberinth for just what we're thinking of, right?).
Spirit Temple: Not really sure if it's still in use, save for a few rooms near the entrence because of all the traps, right? Mabe they are used to it or something...
Lest we not forget the Light Temple/Sacred Relm. True we could never explore it, let alone see only what they wanted us too, but you never know, like how did Gannondorf go to the sacred relm to get the triforce in the beginning? I never thought of it much before, but after twilight princess...I think there is just too many secrets stored in the temple of time alone.
As for WHY, Gannon knew something about them, that would unlocked the destiny of those who would be sages. They could of been too stong (or big) to destroy, so Gannon sent his lackeys to keep an eye on it (except for the water temple at Dark Links part... Just one of those mysteries we will never know).
As for who and when, I don't really think it matters.
Think I'm close enough on target?4/14/2009 . Edited 4/14/2009 #6
I don't think you're too far off!
Yes, ZeldaWiki is an incredible site for a fan like myself, but because it doesn't have a referencing system for a majority of the important points, as someone who likes to stay as unbiased as possible in this kinda thing, I might not be able to take it into full account... but I will for now seeing as it is all the information that we have at our disposal.
So you think Dark Link had nothing to do with Ganondorf? I heard an interesting theory on a different site that made a guess that the Goddesses created Dark Link (in OoT at least) to test The Hero. But I'm pretty sure Ganondorf is behind something like that, because it seemed to be Dark Magic. I'm definitely not saying the Goddesses aren't capable of darker magic...
Ganondorf went to the Sacred Realm when Link pulled the Master Sword out of the pedestal. Ganondorf eventually came to a point (quickly, might I add) when he realised Link was doing a great job collecting the Spiritual Stones- so Ganondorf wouldn't have to do the dirty work himself. He basically bided his time!
We all know that Link has a "good" heart, so if he went to the Sacred Realm, Hyrule definitely would have prospered a lot more. But the only reason why I think he couldn't get to the Sacred Realm was because either:
1) Ganondorf beat him to it somehow (we can only hypothesise) when the two were getting "transported." Although the Triforce split (Ganon taking the Power fragment and using it for evil)
2) Link wasn't headed for the Sacred Realm to begin with, because he was "too young" to be the Hero of Time, as Rauru (the Sage of Light) explained. However, in other Zelda games, Link has been the "Young Link" and obtained the full Triforce. So is it possible that the fact Link was too young to be the "Hero of Time" overrid (not a word, I know) the fact that he had the possibility to reach the Triforce (although it wouldn't be whole)?
It could also be possible that the moment Ganondorf obtained the Triforce of power when he beat Link to it, the land was cast into instant darkness, so that Link was immediately transported to the Chamber of the Sages rather than going to the "empty" Sacred Realm.
The one fact that really puts my second guess away is the fact that the Triforce can't differentiate between good and evil because it is a relic rather than a mind of its own. So what would have transported Link to the Chamber instead of the Sacred Realm like it was supposed to? The Gods or the Master Sword's recognition as Link as a true "hero?" (the latter seems unlikely)
LOL I like it how I'm chatting with only one person about this theory thing- I don't like having to chat about these things with a million people because they usually get off-topic or start wars.
The reason why I'm online at such a weird time is because I'm Australian!4/14/2009 #7
Ah, brilliant ideas, but I think there could be a little tweaking.
Like when Gannondorf transported, I don't think it mattered how soon he entered to get the triforce as it might of still shattered if link touched it (as we know is isn't the most intelligent in hyrule, nor does he rely on brute strength) but the goddesses, or the sage of light saw that child link wouldn't be ready until a certain time.
As for shadow link, I personally think that zelda wiki has two good (if not far fetched) ideas about him that I ripped straight out of their text;
"Some say that, just maybe, Dark Link was created out of Link's heroism: because Link is the hero that he is, Dark Link arose to complete Link's dark side. (Everyone has a good and bad side to them (Yin and Yang); thus, it is a widely accepted theory that Dark Link is the force that balances Link, and possibly keeps him alive. With that in mind, many also believe that Dark Link cannot truly be defeated because this might also result in Link's death. Yet another theory is that, since Link needed to be born immaculate (sinless) in order to touch the Master Sword, the gods extracted his dark side from his soul, leaving only his light; his dark side is Dark Link, whose ultimate wish is to reunite himself to his holy counterpart."
They take a bit of fun out of this, eh? ;)
As for Link only going to the Chamber of the Sages, I think it's only the sages that brought them there, not the sword or gods. That's the simplest explanation.
Alright, now lets get to something harder...
The connection between OoT and Twilight Princess is kind of hard to believe thanks to the strange map placement. What are your ideas of it? I think that during the 'final battle' in OoT, the plot of land that the two fought on must of traveled north, and crashed in the area behind death mountain (assuming Link didn't return the sword). Time passed, Gannondorf found a way to escape, the descendants of the sages said "No, get BACK into your personal hell" after they caught him soon after (keeping in mind this happened WAY later since OoT) and when they tried to shove the sword in, they failed and a few died, ect. ect. you know the rest.
Thing is, if I'm even remotely close to being right (which I'm probably not) a whole lot of time passed. Enough for there to be one Kakoraco (however you spell it) village to be built, phased out, another one to be made, and the temple of time to fall into the sad state of disrepair as we see it today.
This is one big pot-shot guess, so let me hear you on your ideas.
By the way, I'm from Ohio in the states.4/15/2009 #8
Some interesting ideas and excellent referencing on your part as well! Hahaha...
Those ZeldaWiki ideas about Dark Link (especially the one pertaining to the requirement of sinlessness) are great, and I like to believe them for now, but unfortunately they're only speculations based on insinuations rather than fact... although insinuations seems to go a long way in the Zelda community seeing as many (important) things aren't explicitly mentioned.
The connection between OoT and TP...
I personally believe in the Split Timeline Theory. There is a brilliant explanation of the theory on ZeldaWiki.
When Adult Link changed the fate of Hyrule, a new "realities" were created:
1) The Original Reality- If Adult Link were to not exist or not save Hyrule in the future, the events of WW occurred
2) The "New" Reality- Adult Link saves Hyrule, goes back and POSSIBLY warns the King of Ganondorf's true intentions and the events of TP occurs.
Those are just purely speculative, but that's how I believe time travel works. In your current reality, there was a path you were going towards because you don't know you're future. Once you know you're future (assuming it is bad) you will change it, and create a new "ending/reality" forever... sorry if I didn't make sense.
As for the plot of the land shifting, that IS a pot-shot guess! No one's really sure why the land structure changes time and time again. Maybe the developers didn't take it into account, or there are some games in between that had a calamity similar to WW in which the citizens had to move...
It has been said by the creators that OoT is definitely the first Zelda in the timeline, so I had to think of things accordingly. LttP is supposed to be the last, but I've heard that changed.4/16/2009 #9
Wow, this is confusing, but you did do your homework.
I also think that this theory has reached a dead-end, but now I'm fresh out of what to think up of now.
Any ideas?4/16/2009 #10
It can get confusing even for the person explaining it! :S
I'm taking you believe that there definitely is an absolute chronology with ALL of the Zelda games?
I've read theories of some people who believe that each Zelda game is not related to each other at all, unless explicitly mentioned- e.g., LoZ and The Adventures of Link (which is "Zelda II").
Do you think that each Link is the "same" Link in every game so far? Or every Ganondorf is the same?4/17/2009 #11
OOT cannot be the first Zelda, because the first princess was in Zelda II. She was cast into a sleep and is the reason that all the princesses are called Zelda.
All the Links are descendants except those in the Wind Waker timeline. Doesn't it mention that somewhere in the games too?4/18/2009 #12
Ah, Ebony, your joining this now? Cool...
Honestley, I thought that OoT was the first, as I remember reading about a civil war, a woman running out to the forest with a child, giving said child to the deku tree, and he grew up there. As I said before, the whole timelines confusing to piece togeather.
Plus, if any timeline was mentioned in the games, It would still be as clear as mud.4/18/2009 #13
No, because I read somewhere that it mentions a civil war in OOT. Now, a civil war did happen, the Fifty Years War that was mentioned in LttP.
Most games have some sort of connection with each other. For example, the Oracles duet and the Minish Cap are connected because it has characters and lands in the Oracles mentioned in Minish Cap.
However, this set also brings the issue that most theorists in the Zelda areas encounter, when do they really occur. I will use MC as an example again. It feature characters not only from the Oracles, but from WW as well. Now, some people believe that the Oracles duet happened just after LttP, since he left Hyrule to go to the other lands after saving Zelda. However, due to the Split-Timeline theory, which is pretty much aknowledged by most Zelda fans, the characters should, if LttP came beforehand, never met.
Then again, descendants and reincarnations are very vital to the Zelda time-line. Its not the same Link or Zelda that repeatedly battle, due to the fact that it sometimes mentions how long it has been since the last strife. This is the case of WW and Zelda II. Ganon is the same, however, because of getting the triforce when he first started out. Ganondorf is what he calls his human mask.4/18/2009 #14
Wow, you're sure right about this getting confusing.
I just thought OoT was first because of what ZeldaWiki's sources said...
But as Ebony acknowledged, it's extremely contradictory with the whole naming Zelda thing.
Speaking of timelines, I haven't read any decent single timeline theories yet...4/19/2009 #15
Well, more or less, this what is known (as stated from 'Zeldapedias' timeline theory):
Ocarina of Time (Adult Timeline) -- The Wind Waker -- Phantom Hourglass
Ocarina of Time (Child Timeline) -- Majora's Mask -- Twilight Princess
The Minish Cap -- Four Swords -- Four Swords Adventures
A Link to the Past -- Link's Awakening
The Legend of Zelda -- Zelda II: The Adventure of Link (usually placed after the above two)
Oracle of Seasons -- Oracle of Ages.
It might end up like this:
The Minish Cap -- Four Swords -- Four Swords Adventures, The Legend of Zelda -- Zelda II: The Adventure of Link, A Link to the Past -(Oracle of Seasons -- Oracle of Ages)- Link's Awakening. Then it branches to OoT.
Ocarina of Time (Adult Timeline) -- The Wind Waker -- Phantom Hourglass
Ocarina of Time (Child Timeline) -- Majora's Mask -- Twilight Princess
as such.4/19/2009 #16
You bring up an interesting point, Link was traveling between LttP and Link's Awakening, so the Oracles could take place in between.
Here's my theory
AOL - LOZ - LttP - OoS/OoA - LA - MC - FS - FSA - OOT (Split)
(Child) MM - TP
(Adult) WW - PH - ST
It should begin with the first Princess Zelda, since she was asleep for only 100 years as stated in the manuel. The only way LOZ would come first is if another Princess Zelda existed, which would bring to question of why didn't Ganon capture both of them?4/19/2009 #17
I said what I did because of this text, once again from Zeldapedia;
AoL takes place several seasons after the original game, as indicated in the manual. It stars the Link of the previous game nearing his 16th birthday and discovering a Triforce mark that has appeared on his hand. The Zelda in this game is not the same Zelda as in the first game. The manual describes how long ago, a prince should have inherited the full Triforce from his father, who died after telling the prince's sister, the original Princess Zelda, the location of the last piece. The prince and a magician questioned Zelda, who refused to reveal the location of the Triforce; in anger, the magician cast a sleeping spell upon the princess, killing himself in the process. Out of grief, the prince then ordered all future girls born in the royal family to be named Zelda. In the game, Link eventually finds the Triforce of Courage, thus fully uniting the Triforce, which he uses to awake this original Zelda. The idea of who this original Zelda was has been hotly debated, as the fact that the Triforce of Courage could not have been hidden prior to Ocarina of Time implies that the events took place later.
I never played any of the early games (before OoT), so sorry if it sounds like I'm talking out of turn, but maybe after being awakened, the origional Zelda went into hideing, or Gannon had some horrable hindsight.4/19/2009 #18
What about in the original game? The triforce of wisdom that was taken from Zelda was shattered into tiny pieces and sown about the land.
The Triforce could have been brought out into Hyrule before OOT because Ganon had gotten part of the triforce in the other games. The sages brought the triforce back to the sacred realm and sealed it. Upon it being stolen from the Golden Land (Sacred Realm) in LttP, they would seal it with the four keys (The three spiritual stones and the sword).
Its okay, this is merely debates.4/19/2009 #19
I only stated that of what was said on the wiki, and I also said I have not played the original game. No need to even act defensive about it.4/19/2009 #20
...I wasn't acting defensive, at least not intentionally.
Then, maybe we should move from time-lines and the earlier games.
Why do you suppose the Iron Boots are only heavy when Link wears them? Shouldn't they weigh him down while he is carrying it?4/19/2009 #21
Thats what I got from your last line.
Now let me answer your question with another question;
How can Link carry over 30 items of equipment and that doesn't even slow him down? Why doesn't it show it on his person unless he's using it?
I think he compinsates this with...
wait for it...
his HAT! He never goes anywhere without it, whenever he reaches for a item, he reaches there... There must be some sort of magic with it.4/19/2009 #22
Great idea! Ok, I have several ideas about Legend of Zelda: 1. He carrys all his equipment in a pouch in TP, which is part of his hero's clothes. It makes things smaller and lighter by magic so he carrys everything he has in it.
2. That all of the Links are descendants and have certain characteristics/looks/abilities that are the same and they all have the same name. Also I noticed that the Links have no parents or anything. Maybe they come from another universe yet don't know it?
3. You know the hero that teaches link hero's skills in TP? Well I think/almost certain he died in a huge battle and was left to rot but he didn't die technically, he just like hung in the balance to teach the other Links by hearing their howls and answering them in his wolf form.5/2/2009 #23
Well, I actually intended it as a bit of a joke (lol), as it is a bit far fetched.
Now let me talk about your ideas;
1) Makes as much sence as my hat idea.
2) Yea, strange that Links parents are never there let alone refrenced, but that the Hero is from a diffrent universe? It could be easier to 'believe' that the godesses "replicated" the origional as they needed someone who has the true qualitys of a hero, and no one else could do anything like him (i.e. Useing the master sword).
3) I can see your point (After all, he's in full battle gear) but instead of teaching the (one, not every) Link of his techniques. I think that he couln't rest as he didn't pass on his moves, and they just happened to find each other through pure luck.5/5/2009 #24
I thought the hat idea was quite good but a bit strange. :) It would make sense though because he never goes anywhere without it! Maybe the Links are part of a family that lives in another universe and one of them goes to the hylian world sometimes to save it or something... I thought the dead hero was a bit creepy but you had to admit he knows what he's doing! Maybe the dead guy spends his time wandering around hyrule in his white wolf form or just spends his days hacking at enemys in his creepy white world...maybe I should do a oneshot of the dead creepy hero! What do you think?5/6/2009 #25
|Ten ways to spoil dinner
Heh, that would be fun to read. I always thought that, benig in the Gamecube version of TP, the Dead hero is also left handed (Which, besides Link, and Ganon, you never see.) that he might be one of the earlier Link's, come back to teach this new Link a few new tricks.6/7/2009 #26
The spirit of Ezlo lives in Link's hat and makes everything light o.o"""
lol. Sorry, just had to say that.
What I always thought interesting was the fact that the Temple of Time was by Hyrule Castle in OoT and then south in Faron in TP.
Also in WW why Medli, who flies is sage of Earth and why Makar, who is a plant, is sage of Wind.
Ya know, just a thingy about the timeline, there is that video. Personally, I've given up on it and say that it's a circle. =/
The Hero's Shade does say that he can now rest in peace having passed on his techniques after the final Howling Stone. And then he says, "Go, and do not falter, my child!" which makes it sound like he is an ancestor.6/7/2009 #27
Ha, I actually forgot about ol' Ezlo!
Now I don't know if I said this before (and maybe I have) but here's a idea. Remember at the end of OoT you were fighting Ganon on top of the floating wreckage known as Hyrule castle? What if, during this battle, the plot of land moved around? At the end of the battle, it could of floated somewhere else.
Then, old Hyrule market would be left for time to destroy while the citizens built the new kingdom for whatever reason.
The problem with this idea though is that if there is a time line branch (the child and adult OoT), than the location in twilight princess should not be where it is (as it follows the child time line because Ganondorf was captured, unless this happened later).
As for the sages... Maybe it has something to do with their personalities...?
As for the Hero's Shade, I don't believe he is related to Link only because of the fact he can talk! If Link can make an actuall conversation (in game), than everything I knew about Zelda is a lie!
E3 had some promo art of a new Zelda game (Wii of course), but there is no name. All I know is that more news will be out in 2010, but it makes me wonder if it would have anything to do with TP. I saw a small, not-worth-ones-time article on ign.com about it. All I can say is that the Links look exactley the same in all ways (so far), so it would be cool if it was a continuation of some sort. Does it call for a return to Termia (like Majora's Mask)? Only time will tell.6/7/2009 #28
|Ones in the Past
The sages of OoT and TP have got to be related somehow (b/c of the symbols on thieir persons) so therefore OoT and TP have to be on the same timeline. It's only a speculation.
As for the items, in TP, Midna might store them in her netherworld-storage-thingy... D:7/25/2009 #29
If we consider the split timeline theory, it's widely believed that TP takes place 100 years after child OoT ending.
I think those sages are the ancient sages. But the problem with that is, there are seven wise men. So the Wisdom one is missing. Or living on in Zelda.7/25/2009 #30
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