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Thranduil Oropherion Redux

Because it's my party and I'll talk Tolkien if I want to.

2/5/2009 #1
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

Breaking news from Milwaukee Wisconsin, where there is a propane tank fire next door to Marquette University's Heggerty Art Museum, where the JRR Tolkien papers are stored. The museum has been evacuated -- just in case that sucker goes boom.

Stay tuned . . .

2/10/2009 #2
hixto

Oh my goodness! Be sure to update us. That sounds bad.

2/10/2009 #3
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

Well, I've heard nothing further, so I assume it didn't go boom. From what I read, the L&C is probably at Oxford in any case.

However, I'm to understand that there are some Tolkien drawings at Marquette, so that would have been a loss.

2/11/2009 #4
hixto

However, I'm to understand that there are some Tolkien drawings at Marquette, so that would have been a loss.

Can anyone view this stuff or do you have to be a scholar to get a look at his drawings and manuscripts?

2/11/2009 #5
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

Can anyone view this stuff or do you have to be a scholar to get a look at his drawings and manuscripts?

I'm not sure. How do you interpret this?:

Access and Services

The descriptive inventory for the J.R.R. Tolkien Collection is now available online. Visitors are advised that some form of photographic identification is required for access to Memorial Library. Although all materials must be used in the department's reading room, photocopies and photographic prints may be obtained. To insure the immediate availability of records and audiovisual equipment, researchers visiting from outside the Marquette campus are asked to write or phone in advance.

Service Hours: Monday through Friday, 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. Evening and weekend hours by appointment.

I know they've had public exhibits in the past.

2/12/2009 #6
hixto

Yep, sounds like you have to be a researcher with a photo id. But that you can get prints if you're a regular person, probably for a fee. You should try it sometime and see if they'd give you a print.

2/12/2009 #7
Aislynn Crowdaughter

Sounds nice. Such a print, under glass, at the wall... But then I need ti have to find a free wall to put it on, first. :)

2/12/2009 #8
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

Or do what I do -- simply frame a hi-res scan from one of his calendars or art books. (I know -- I'm cheap. LOL)

2/12/2009 #9
hixto

Print it on that paper that looks like canvas and it will look like a painting.

2/12/2009 #10
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

I've done that. I've also considered painting over printed art, since my own drafting skills are a tad deficient.

2/14/2009 #11
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

Bumping, with two questions to get the discussion rolling again.

1) What is your least favorite piece of fanon? (Mine is the myth of indestructable elves -- don't feel cold, don't need to sleep, can't starve to death or get sick. First of all, it isn't true. Second, it makes it bloody impossible to put them into dramatic jeopardy if you followed it.)

2) What is your favorite generally held belief about elves that you know is fanon but you use it anyway? (That elves have control over conception. This comes from the Laws & Customs about elves refraining from having children in times of war. I think Tolkien meant they just don't have sex. But I will happily use a built-in form of contraception for them. I like mine to be content.)

2/15/2009 #12
Spiced Wine

This comes from the Laws & Customs about elves refraining from having children in times of war. I think Tolkien meant they just don't have sex.

Finrod told Andreth that Elves don't marry or have children in times of war, while trying to explain why Aegnor would not marry her, even though he loved her. I wouldn't like to think they didn't have sex, more as if the woman's body did not conceive.

I like the idea of inbuilt contraception. I am sure most women would :) but I don't think I've ever used it.

I write Elves as a lot more ' durable ' than Men, but get injured, sleep etc, yes.

One thing I have noticed is that many people write Elves as having the same nocturnal habits as men, and always go to bed at night. I don't choose to do that. Sometimes they do, but not invariably, they may be out at night, enjoying the starlight, talking, whatever, they don't go to bed every night for 6-8 hours sleep when I write them. Legolas did not appear to need much sleep when he and Aragorn and Gimli were pursuing the Isenguard orcs, and did not seem as weary as Gimli and Aragorn. 'Only Legolas still stepped lightly as ever.' Although it inferred he did ' sleep by ' resting his mind ' if he needed to. I write them sleeping or resting when they feel the need. On a drowsy summer afternoon they might rest, and stay awake to enjoy the stars at night. They are not as tied to the routine of ' bed at night ' as men are in my AU, since if they're able to 'rest their minds in the strange paths of Elvish dreams ' it does not have to be confined to the night, unless they want it to be.

Get injured, poisoned even, yes. Aredhel died of a poisoned wound, for one thing.

Cold - the storm on Caradhras ' troubled Legolas little, and he alone of the company remained still light of heart.' so I would say (considering the Noldor crossed the Helcaraxe without Arctic weather gear, though many were lost and they suffered from the terrible cold. They did survive where men would perish, however ) that they are less troubled by the cold, but certainly not impervious.

Has any-one read the Michael Martinez aticle, Elves by the Numbers? It's very interesting. I was wondering about the number of Noldor in Beleriand and was directed to it.

This made me extremely somber. And Elves were unfortunately destructible, if Morgoth killed possibly two million of them.

Quote.

no matter how you work your way through the generations, the Noldor end up with a huge population in Beleriand, and the Sindar must be even more numerous. So when Tolkien has Morgoth turn the tables on the Eldar and his legions of Orcs go streaming across the countryside, the devastation is worse than anything prior to the Napoleonic wars in true history. Perhaps it's even worse than the Napoleonic wars themselves. What the Eldar achieved in Beleriand seems fragile because we have only the one map done by Christopher Tolkien, and it names fewer than a dozen cities.

But think of a map of Europe where at most two dozen cities are named. How sparse and empty the countryside would seem to someone looking at that map. And yet we know better. Whether there were many more cities than are named in the stories, there were a lot of Elves. It shouldn't seem strange at all that Earendil would be so desperate as to abandon his wife and children to spend years seeking for a way across the Sea so that he could deliver the prayer of Elves and Men to the Valar.

And Morgoth's accomplishment also comes across as that much more horrifying and awe-inspiring. He wiped out at least a couple million Elves. That's a lot of sub-creational power that was directed against him. Sort of puts things in perspective, don'tcha think?

2/26/2009 #13
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

One of the things I like least about Tolkien fandom is that there is a contingent of self-appointed canon experts (usually a bunch of teenagers who've learned their stuff from fanfiction, ill-researched essays and other so-called experts' reviews) ready to jump on you for 'disrespecting Tolkien's vision' if you include an element in your story that doesn't fit their preconscieved notions.

Bottom line -- we're all extrapolating from anecdotal evidence in the stories and from casual remarks Tolkien made in his notes. As long as it makes sense it's a valid interpretation, but I don't think there should be one True Version of Arda.

Finrod told Andreth that Elves don't marry or have children in times of war, while trying to explain why Aegnor would not marry her, even though he loved her. I wouldn't like to think they didn't have sex, more as if the woman's body did not conceive.

I like the idea of inbuilt contraception. I am sure most women would :) but I don't think I've ever used it.

Aegnor was a wuss. There were a few other good reasons why he might have hesitated to marry a mortal woman, and I think Finrod was just being kind.

Based on something Tolkien said in the L&C about the importance of fathers being around during a child's formative years and Miriel lying down and dying because Feanor's birth had taken so much out of her, I've been playing around with the idea that there is a spiritual component to an Elven conception. If that spiritual effort is held back there won't be a faer and -- no baby.

I have Oropher telling his newly married son right before the Last Alliance, "Enjoy your honeymoon but no babies until we get home again." And then, Thranduil returns so depressed by the massacre at the Dagorlad that he can't quite 'do the trick'. Hence, almost three thousand years of infertility. But thi8s is not 'canon' -- merely one valid interpretation of it.

One thing I have noticed is that many people write Elves as having the same nocturnal habits as men, and always go to bed at night. I don't choose to do that.

I was told definitively, when I first began writing Tolkien, that Elves don't sleep. Period. And I think this was based on Legolas's odd behavior during the orc chase across Rohan. Sleeping while running, pacing and meditating rather than sleeping. They forget he was jazzed up. And subsequently we see him conked out. So mine sleep -- deeply if they're in secure circumstances -- and they'll dream. My Thranduil is plagued by nightmares, some reliving an old trauma, some prophetic.

Iggy and I were discussing a few nights ago whether they could get infections. I've decided yes, under specific conditions. I've gleaned from the writings that Elves are a sub-race of Homo Sapiens whose spirits have greater control over their bodies, hence the tolerance to cold, greater healing powers, resistance to disease, continence and the ability to do without sleep for lengths of time. Damage the spirit through grief or trauma and it might affect the body too. (We do see escaped Elves from Angband looking like aged mortals.) Or overload the system with a grave wound and poison and they might fall prey to infection.

2/26/2009 #14
Spiced Wine

I was told definitively, when I first began writing Tolkien, that Elves don't sleep. Period.

That wasn't the impression I got whrn I first read him. That they could go for periods without sleep, probably. In any case Tulkas falls asleep on Almaren, and he was a Vala! But Elves never seemed so different to men that they never slept.

and they'll dream. My Thranduil is plagued by nightmares, some reliving an old trauma, some prophetic.

Yes, mine dream, and not always good ones, I can see it would be healing to escape into only ' good ' dreams or memories, but I'm not sure that works for me, especially in people who live so long that they must accrue some sad or horrifying memories.

I've been playing around with the idea that there is a spiritual component to an Elven conception. If that spiritual effort is held back there won't be a faer and -- no baby.

It sounds intriguing. I wondered if the women might also have some control over fertility because nurture took a lot more out of them spiritually than Mortal women - or that was a reason behind Elves apparently losing their sex drive in LACE, that Tolkien thought the process took too much out of the women especially, so ' enough was enough' at some point. Not that I follow LACE but Miriel's death is very thought-provoking.

I don't think there should be one True Version of Arda.

Lol, I am not sure if Tolkien had one true version of it, there was a discussion on his round Earth/flat Earth and the sun and moon, and them having been there all the time, but there had been a 'dome' over Arda, on my friends LJ which was very interesting.

But by and large, ( umm, apart from the science ' is totaled ' as some-one said on the topic ), :D his world ticks, so as long as a fanfic is logical to it's own vision, I will read it.

Damage the spirit through grief or trauma and it might affect the body too. (We do see escaped Elves from Angband looking like aged mortals.)

Yes, Gwindor, and I would imagine he was not the only one in Angband, but probably many died there and never got out, and most that did were mistrusted and avoided as being possible spies ' walking under his ( Morgoth's ) will.'- which is tragic. :(

You don't have a race of people needing Healers such as Elrond without there being a need for them, I think. Not if a small band-aid solved the problem, d;-)

2/26/2009 #15
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

It sounds intriguing. I wondered if the women might also have some control over fertility because nurture took a lot more out of them spiritually than Mortal women

In my version of it both parents have to perform this effort of will equally, so, yes, the women have control too. Furthermore, I postulate that the fathers give as much of their spirit strength to the developing faer as do the mothers and they too will become depleted. So, Thranduil, depleted by the trauma of the Dagorlad and the encroachment of Sauron into Mirkwood, can't pull his weight with that either and his wife bears the brunt of Legolas, dying of a slow fade just like Miriel once he's born.

I did all this to get around the fact I'd been told that Elf-women, being perfect, simply do not die in childbirth. I've since re-thought that as well.

Lol, I am not sure if Tolkien had one true version of it, there was a discussion on his round Earth/flat Earth and the sun and moon, and them having been there all the time, but there had been a 'dome' over Arda, on my friends LJ which was very interesting.

The entire flat earth/no sun thing drives me crazy, but I do my best. I frankly think Tolkien just tossed off a lot of pretty words at times without really pondering the implications. He contradicted himself a lot.

Next up for fanon discussion: Elven hair color. Were they all dark-haired 'save in the golden House of Finarfin'? Were all Silvans silver-blond? And where the hell did Nerdanel get that red hair?

2/26/2009 #16
Spiced Wine

So, Thranduil, depleted by the trauma of the Dagorlad and the encroachment of Sauron into Mirkwood, can't pull his weight with that either and his wife bears the brunt of Legolas, dying of a slow fade just like Miriel once he's born.

Hmm, I like that theory.

Elven hair color.

Apparently Miriel had silver hair. Har. Throw in another color, so we have black, red and silver.

Amroth had golden hair, and although he *may* have been supposed to be Galadriel's son, I opt for him being Amdir's son ( a Sindar ) - and Nimrodel was Silvan, and golden haired.Thranduil was gold haired.

I'm don't know the big question of Silvan hair color, Tolkien spent most time on the Noldor. The few named and described Silvan's or Sindar seem to be fair. ( Thranduil, Nimrodel, maybe Amroth ) The red hair is an oddity, it seems, although I wondered if he just drew on folklore and the Tuatha de Danaan who were supposed to be red haired.

2/26/2009 #17
hixto

Next topic of discussion? I haven't gotten to the first one yet. lol

Regarding Elves not being able to conceive during times of war: It's been noted that animals, when under stress, do not conceive, or will eat their babies (certain rodents for example). It's not a pretty image that last but as to stress, I'm not certain stress affects humans the same way but it stands to reason that a healthy body would be more conducive to carrying a baby and having the resources to support a growing life. Maybe Tolkien had some idea that it was mental or spiritual distress rather than Elves having a conscious choice. But I haven't read the L&C so I don't really know.

Regarding Elves not sleeping: It's funny how everyone remembers the part of the chase where Legolas doesn't sleep but forgets that, a chapter or so later, he is sleeping so soundly when Saruman runs their horses off that he only awakes when Gimli shouts. The "blending living night with deep dream" line didn't help matters any. It's a nice turn of phrase but what does it really mean?

Regarding Elves getting infections: It seems reasonable to assume, since Tolkien wrote that they don't fall ill, that their immune systems will not allow for bateria or viruses but that they might succumb to anything that lowers that immunity, such as poison or dark magic.

Regarding hair color: Due to intermarriages and recessive genes, any Elf can have any hair color (IMO) unless Tolkien specifically described the Elf in question with a particular hair color. Legolas could be a redhead for all we know. lol

2/26/2009 #18
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

Amroth had golden hair, and although he *may* have been supposed to be Galadriel's son, I opt for him being Amdir's son ( a Sindar ) - and Nimrodel was Silvan, and golden haired.Thranduil was gold haired.

Yikes -- point me toward the descriptions of Amroth and Nimrodel being golden-haired. I'm assuming that's in the UT, but Lorien isn't my field of interest or expertise.

I know for a fact that Tolkien described Thranduil as having golden hair, and I once observed a hilarious discussion among some canatics falling all over themselves to explain how Thranduil, a Sinda, could not possible have 'gold' hair, so it must have been a trick of the firelight or something. I've decided to have a little fun with that, giving Thranduil a secret heritage to explain his hair color that is guaranteed to make a canatic pee him or herself. LOL

The part that annoys me the most, though is the insistance that only Noldor had black or dark hair, and thus all Silvans or Sindarins must have silver-blond hair. At this point, I'm just like, "Pray ask me if a I give a rat's ass!"

2/27/2009 #19
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

Edit: WTF??? Stand by for my real post. FFN just ate a reply in progress and double-posted my previous one. -__-

2/27/2009 . Edited 2/27/2009 #20
Spiced Wine

In UT ' Of Amroth and Nimrodel ' it says that when the mariners watched him try to swim ashore, the setting sun ' lit his bright hair like a spark of gold. ' Although a spark of sun flash off anything, 'bright' hair to me, does imply he was fair.

When Legolas sings the song of Nimrodel in Lothlorien, he says;

'A light was on her hair,

As sun upon the golden boughs

In Lorien the fair'

And that sounds as if she had radiant fair hair, not dark. Light, sun, golden.

I've written of dark haired Silvan's though, because I think they could have any color, it is not a question I am going to agonize over.

Trying to explain Thranduil's hair color as a trick of the firelight is...a little silly, imho.

2/27/2009 . Edited 2/27/2009 #21
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

In UT ' Of Amroth and Nimrodel ' it says that when the mariners watched him try to swim ashore, the setting sun ' lit his bright hair like a spark of gold. ' Although a spark of sun flash off anything, 'bright' hair to me, does imply he was fair.

Before I stopped giving a damn, I was careful to describe a fair-haired Legolas as 'tow-headed' 'flaxen' etc. I gave him a dark-haired mother and a tow-headed grandfather, which may or may not be genetically possible. But then I hit on Thranduil using his unusually-colored hair as a battle flag and being the odd man out in his realm. I'm going somewhere with it. If fanon gives me a lemon, I'll make lemonade. LOL

I've written of dark haired Silvan's though, because I think they could have any color, it is not a question I am going to agonize over.

'Silvans' are an admixture of Sindar, Nandor, and possibly Avari. I figure they could have any hair color too, so I describe Thranduil's people as either pale-haired or dark-haired, and I stint on the superlatives.

2/27/2009 #22
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

Maybe Tolkien had some idea that it was mental or spiritual distress rather than Elves having a conscious choice. But I haven't read the L&C so I don't really know.

I've read the L&C with a fine-tooth comb, looking for loopholes. I think I found a few. LOL

Regarding Elves not sleeping: It's funny how everyone remembers the part of the chase where Legolas doesn't sleep but forgets that, a chapter or so later, he is sleeping so soundly when Saruman runs their horses off that he only awakes when Gimli shouts. The "blending living night with deep dream" line didn't help matters any. It's a nice turn of phrase but what does it really mean?

My other favorite is when everyone remembers Legolas riding without tack in Rohan to insist that Elves never used saddles, but they forget about Glorfindel's gem-encrusted, bell-studded headstall ("Yoo-hoo, Mr. Ring Wraith -- here I come!") complete with saddle in Fellowship.

Regarding hair color: Due to intermarriages and recessive genes, any Elf can have any hair color (IMO) unless Tolkien specifically described the Elf in question with a particular hair color. Legolas could be a redhead for all we know. lol

That's always been my argument, even if you believe that fairytale about the Firsts, Seconds and Thirds at Cuivienen. You mean to say that no one ever, ever married outside of the original groups prior to the Great Journey? Because they sure started to miscegenate afterwards.

When I first saw the movie, I questioned the choice of a blond wig for Legolas -- but I had forgotten Dad's 'golden' hair. It makes perfect sense.

2/27/2009 #23
Aislynn Crowdaughter

This whole discussion about hair color had me check my copy of LOTR, and I found the part I was looking for:

This is form the chapter "Lothlorien", of the HarperCollings Paperback edition 1995, page 337. The elf speaking is Haldir:

"'There is one of my people yonder across the stream,' he said, 'though you may not see him.' He gave a call like the low whistle of a bird, and out of the thicket of young trees an Elf stepped, clad in grey, but with his hood thrown back; his hair glinted like gold in the morning sun."

(Italics by me). Now, this is just a random Silvain Elf of Lothlorien. We never learn his name. add to that Glorfindel's golden hair (who may or may not have been related to Finarfin, but we never know), and Thranduil's, and you have quite a few non-descendant ts of Finarfin who apparently are blond, not dark. And that is in the *published* books, which are canon because they were published during the master's lifetime, and he had every chance in the world to take these examples out in several editions, but he didn't.

So much for "except for the Vanyar, all Elves are dark-haired." Canatics, eat your heart out.

As for the Sindar having silver hair - I do not know where I got the impression from, but wasn't that supposed to be a special trait of the royals among them? Elwe, Olwe, Earwen, Celeborn, and apparently Cirdan (although I don't know if he was supposed to be related to Elwe's family, or not). Or is that just fanon?

Oh, and back to the start question, Part of Fanon I know to be fanon, but real like: Thranduil being related to Elwe in some way. To me it would make sense, as it would explain to me why those Silvain Elves of the Greenwood would accept Oropher and him as their king, more than if he had been just a simple Sindar of the descendants of Doriath.

2/27/2009 . Edited 2/28/2009 #24
Spiced Wine

When Tolkien said, in ' Of Elves ' ' ..their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finarfin ' I thought, reading the rest, he was only referring to the Noldor, not the other kindreds.

I thought Elwe's hair was silver after he came back from his time with Melian, although it does not necessarily follow Tolkien meant that, it just says his hair was 'grey-silver '

I have a question, prompted by some-one on LJ - Elven dentition. You know what I mean :) What happens if an Elf gets his teeth knocked out in battle - my mind cannot grasp gap toothed or gummy Elves.

2/28/2009 #25
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

When Tolkien said, in ' Of Elves ' ' ..their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finarfin ' I thought, reading the rest, he was only referring to the Noldor, not the other kindreds.

Yeah -- like the only 'Elves' that count are Noldor. *eye roll*

And of course Finarfin was only golden-haired because of his Vanyarin mother.

I thought Elwe's hair was silver after he came back from his time with Melian, although it does not necessarily follow Tolkien meant that, it just says his hair was 'grey-silver '

I'm not conversant enough with the Silmarillion and all the possible books of the HoME to chase down every thing Tolkien might have said about Thingol's hair -- or other elves' hair for that matter. It then becomes very hard to sort out what Tolkien actually said from what someone else reports that he said and what it supposedly meant. And that remark about 'Elves' you quoted above just whos that he could be careless in his speech, saying one thing one place and another thing elsewhere.

I have a question, prompted by some-one on LJ - Elven dentition. You know what I mean :) What happens if an Elf gets his teeth knocked out in battle - my mind cannot grasp gap toothed or gummy Elves.

And what about missing limbs? I've been told that Maedhros didn't grow his hand back, but he hardly had enough time.

2/28/2009 #26
Spiced Wine

I'm not conversant enough with the Silmarillion and all the possible books of the HoME to chase down every thing Tolkien might have said about Thingol's hair -- or other elves' hair for that matter.

Trust me, don't lose sleep over it. d;-)

In a quote from ' The Terminator "In a hundred years, who's gonna care?"

I don't write a lot about Silvan's but I have no objection to dark haired ones :), it will not make me wrong my hands, XD

And what about missing limbs? I've been told that Maedhros didn't grow his hand back, but he hardly had enough time.

Well, he had a few hundred years, I should think in that time it would grow back or it wouldn't. I wrote of it not, but again, I have no objection to arguments stating that it could.

2/28/2009 #27
Aislynn Crowdaughter

I have a question, prompted by some-one on LJ - Elven dentition. You know what I mean :) What happens if an Elf gets his teeth knocked out in battle - my mind cannot grasp gap toothed or gummy Elves.

And what about missing limbs? I've been told that Maedhros didn't grow his hand back, but he hardly had enough time.

No idea. I know you wrote a story about Elves growing back their teeth; and Maedhros might not only not have had the time to grow back his limbs, but also not the inner "health" to do it. It if is true that Elven hroa are ruled by their fear, and if it is true that in time, for elves the hroa is consumed by the fea and becomes a memory of the fea (= is maintained by the inner image the fea has of how the hroa should look like), then it is possible that Maedhros soul simply was too wounded by his imprisonment, and he felt that lost limb as a loss not only of his body, but also of his soul. In that case, he would probably not have grown it back even to the end of Arda (without healing his fea first).

But I have no idea what Tolkien himself wrote on the matter, if any.

(On the other hand, I doubt that a missing tooth would cause an injury of the fea, so regrowing it back may come easily).

2/28/2009 . Edited 2/28/2009 #28
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

No idea. I know you wrote a story abozut RElves growing back their teeth; and Maedhros might not only not have had the time to grow back his lombs, but also not the inner "health" to do it

Well, he was under the influence of that ill-conceived oath to regain the Silmarills. He wasn't in, what you would call a state of spiritual health.

I think that Tolkien said things that could be interpreted either way. Does this mean the believe that Elves don't scar is also fanon?

2/28/2009 #29
Spiced Wine

There's a lot about the hroa and fea in Morgorth's Ring, but I'm just off to bed.

I really liked the idea in Pandemoin's works on SWG that when Elven women were pregnant anything wrong in the developing fetus was *cured* by the woman's own genes and spirit, which is why Elves were born beautiful and flawless, as at a genetic level everything was working to ensure they were, thus they would never have uneven features, or any deformities.( Buck teeth, overbite, etc )

I am oversimplifying, Pandemoium writes science, after all, but I thought it was interesting. I would guess the 'blueprint' was set in the first of the Elves. It also explains why an Elven pregnancy is one year, and maybe why it takes more out of an Elf than a Mortal woman.

On the other hand, I doubt that a missing tooth would cause an injury of the fea, so regrowing it back may come easily

Lol, ' Growing back this incisor is really going to take it out of me. ' :DDD

I've read it defitely said Elves don't scar - in MERP, ( sort of early fanon ) but I've seen people well versed in HoME etc suggest they could possibly scar - as you mention, Gwindor was aged when he came from Angband, so perhaps an ' evil ' weapon might scar them?

2/28/2009 . Edited 2/28/2009 #30
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