Of Cabbages and Kings
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Aislynn Crowdaughter

You know he hasn't had time to google the Silmarillion yet. lol

Or hear Blind Guardian's "Nightfall on Middle Earth".

The Fandom Wank entry is *glorious*. So are the comments.

It is a sad thing for LOTRFF.com, though. -____________-

Tolkien Estate has a FAQ about Fanfiction? Where can this be found?

7/4/2011 #691
Aislynn Crowdaughter

Never mind. I just googled it.

Unfortunately, it needs flash player. *grumbles*

http://www.tolkienestate.com/faq/p_2/

7/4/2011 . Edited 7/4/2011 #692
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

Here's the pertinent part: "Can I / someone else write / complete / develop my / their own version of one of these unfinished tales ? (or any others)

The simple answer is NO. You are of course free to do whatever you like for your own private enjoyment, but there is no question of any commercial exploitation of this form of "fan-fiction". Also, in these days of the Internet, and privately produced collectors' items for sale on eBay, we must make it as clear as possible that the Tolkien Estate never has, and never will authorize the commercialisation or distribution of any works of this type. The Estate exists to defend the integrity of J.R.R. Tolkien's writings. Christopher Tolkien's work as his father's literary executor has always been to publish as faithfully and honestly as possible his father's completed and uncompleted works, without adaptation or embellishment." - Rhapsody on 04/07/11 - 10:46 am

7/4/2011 #693
Aislynn Crowdaughter

The part that bothers me is "the commercialization or distribution". So, they are quite explicitly against the distribution of even non-commercial fanfic. Then again, they have to be aware of it's existence, and so I guess they are doing a very good job of intensely looking the other way - AS LONG AS nobody tries to make any money from it without their permission.

7/4/2011 . Edited 7/4/2011 #694
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

I know. Just bear in mind that this is Christopher, who has sent a C&D to a children's camp insisting it change its name from Camp Rivendell to something else. I somehow can't imagine the Professor, who wanted his work to become part of our shared mythology, complaining about a children's camp, anymore than anyone would complain about Camp Camelot or the Neverland Playground.

Other than that, I just don't want him making them look our way.

7/4/2011 #695
R. Zancan

How is FFnet not getting C&Ds all the time?

7/4/2011 #696
Aislynn Crowdaughter

I guess because te Tolkien Estate is aware that shutting down Fanfiction (especially at a site as large as FFN) means shooting yourself in the foot and annnoying a lot of possible buyers of Children of Hurin,. LOTR, The Hobbit, Unfinished Tales and all the books of HOME. So, as lomg as nobody forces them to act by, for example, publishing the new adventures of Aragorn and his merry Rangers for money, they will be willing to look the other way.

As soon as money and comercial selling is involved, they will come down on you.

7/4/2011 #697
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

How is FFnet not getting C&Ds all the time?

For one thing, we don't know how much 'profit' FFN is making. I look up, and I don't even see a banner ad at the top of this page right now. Second, as Aislynn said, they probably do want to turn a blind eye to people who will be led to buying their books and seeing their films. However, if we don't watch it, The Tolkien Estate might just add the professor's name to that list of forbidden authors.

7/4/2011 #698
Aislynn Crowdaughter

Awesome essay at Dreamwith, found by a linkspam post:

Elf: Open Letter: Advice for Keith Manders.

http://elf.dreamwidth.org/428594.html

(And I hope linking it here is okay, because I did not ask.) :(

Remember: Point 1. DON'T ANSWER RIGHT AWAY. No matter how loud it gets, no matter how much you're *barraged* for information or explanations--you don't know the language of the people who are asking you, and they do know yours. They speak Investment Capitalism a lot better than you speak Fannish.

Well put, although I fear it is too late for that. ;P

7/4/2011 #699
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

I've read that. And I kind of disagree. All I really wanted to know from him in the beginning was if he was going to 'monetize' the archive past my point of legal/ethical comfort. Instead he responded with that vague venture capitalist-speak about innovation and improvements and revenue stream, as if we'd all think that was a great thing. But at that point, with the archive being down for a short period and returning with that announcement of new ownership, silence would have been just as bad.

He comes from a culture where making money is a good thing, and the more of it the better. Some of us come from a culture where protecting our amateur status is as important to us as it used to be for would-be Olympic athletes.

Edit: So, for me, it would have been better if he'd done the damage control right away. It's too late now. It hurt to delete my stories, and since I've done it, I'm not about to go to the work of reposting them there no matter what happens.

7/4/2011 . Edited 7/4/2011 #700
Nieriel Raina

Just bear in mind that this is Christopher, who has sent a C&D to a children's camp insisting it change its name from Camp Rivendell to something else. I somehow can't imagine the Professor, who wanted his work to become part of our shared mythology, complaining about a children's camp, anymore than anyone would complain about Camp Camelot or the Neverland Playground.

Well, the professor in his Letters, did not like it when someone wanted to name their bull 'Glorfindel' but he did offer to come up with a more fitting elvish name. :)

7/4/2011 #701
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

I have to say, copyright and trademark rights do not extend to the naming of pets. A bull, maybe, because bulls have a commercial use (don't ask) but if I want to name my cat Rumil, I'm damn well gonna name my cat Rumil.

7/4/2011 #702
Nieriel Raina

Well there was that bearded collie in the last Westminster dog show named Mr. Baggins. =D

7/4/2011 #703
Aislynn Crowdaughter

Also, this: A love Letter to LOTR, by Caras_Galadhon.

http://caras-galadhon.livejournal.com/471788.html

This is a wonderful post about Fandom itself, but I am just quoting the making-money related lines:

We get away with what we do in LotR fandom by keeping our heads down and our noses clean. We are forever walking a thin line. As much as Tolkien wanted to "leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama," Christopher is not of a mind to let anything but the most unprofitable slip under the radar. Money attracts flies. Flies attract attention, and before you know it, everyone knows there's something buried beneath the black cloud of wings.

Right to the point. Still, the entire love letter is worth reading and very, very true.

7/4/2011 #704
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

I just told Rumil that he violated Trademark, and he purred.

7/4/2011 #705
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

We get away with what we do in LotR fandom by keeping our heads down and our noses clean. We are forever walking a thin line. As much as Tolkien wanted to "leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama," Christopher is not of a mind to let anything but the most unprofitable slip under the radar. Money attracts flies. Flies attract attention, and before you know it, everyone knows there's something buried beneath the black cloud of wings.

Right to the point. Still, the entire love letter is worth reading and very, very true.

That is very true. I care less about providing free content for someone else's profit than I do about incurring the wrath of the Tolkien Estate.

7/4/2011 #706
Aislynn Crowdaughter

I have to say, copyright and trademark rights do not extend to the naming of pets. A bull, maybe, because bulls have a commercial use (don't ask) but if I want to name my cat Rumil, I'm damn well gonna name my cat Rumil.

Well, as long as it is just your cat in your house, and not a prize cat in a cat-breeding contest with high sums of prize money involved, you might well get away with it. ;P

What shocked me is that the Tolkien Estate tried to stop an author of using Tolkien himself (the Professor, not his work) as a fictional figure in a novel. WTF???

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/feb/26/mirkwood-jrr-tolkien-legal-battle

The dispute was finally settled (which is kind of sad, because in this case, it would have been good to fight it through; I cannot imagine they would have won this one under US law, and with settling,. there is no precedence case for other attempts of this kind). But still. How the hell is the historical person and personality of J.R.R. Tolkien under copyright protection? How can he even be? Or am I missing something, here? O_O

7/4/2011 . Edited 7/4/2011 #707
Aislynn Crowdaughter

And it is two a.m., down here (far too late for me to be up on a working week... again), so I am off. Good night! *waves*

7/4/2011 #708
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

The dispute was finally settled (which is kind of sad, because in this case, it would have been good to fight it through; I cannot imagine they would have won this one under US law, and with settling,. there is no precedence case for other attempts of this kind). But still. How the hell is the historical person and personality of J.R.R. Tolkien under copyright protection? How can he even be? Or am I missing something, here? O_O

FFN puts a fifty year limit from the time of death before a person ceases to be RP and becomes historical. To me, it does seem a bit of an invasion of privacy to be putting thoughts into the head of a person who is only very recently dead. The relatives of dead celebrities have complained about misuse of their parents' or souses images too. It's a murky area. But Tolkien has been dead, what -- thirty years now?

7/4/2011 #709
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

I'd also like to point out that when Tolkien did his writing, a copyright ran 27 years from the date of publication. Not seventy-five years after your death.

7/4/2011 #710
Nieriel Raina

But Tolkien has been dead, what -- thirty years now?

He died in 1973 so almost 40!

7/4/2011 #711
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

LOL -- new comment tonight:

From what I've seen from the plethora of posts at various wank sites, I seriously doubt anything you say at this point would change anyone's view point. Seems to me the members don't trust either you or Adora. I don't see how you can recover from this foible. Soc Kemhard- Soc Kemhard on 05/07/11 - 01:00 am

And no, the newest member is NOT me.

7/4/2011 . Edited 7/4/2011 #712
Nieriel Raina

Just got back from working/feeding horses and doing the fireworks thing. Got the message for this one, and saw the new one posted to Keith's blog, which, I must say, is MUCH better! ROTFLOL!

Pinkie Pie posted:

~o This is your singing telegram, I hope it finds you well, this business plan of yours really kind of smells; Even if you made lots of dosh, all that would really mean, is that Meyers would just sue your ass and Disney would probably cut off your peen. And on the other hoof, a negative ROI would be pointless, why didn't you just save your money for buying a pretty new pink dress?

So I find myself just baffled, as you strut and pout and huff You're trying to make money from fics about Pooh wanking on a bluff? And when people you want to exploit, get angry and complain, You tell them you're a decent guy when the opposite's quite plain.

So take this in advisement, I'm not just saying this, This opinion is based on facts; I'm not just here to dis. You've made some bad decisions, you've sold some penis-pills, Now your dalliance with fandom will end, or you'd best make yourself a will. Disney will be on you, faster than you can clap, Then you'll incriminate yourself to jail, where toilet water is on tap. Unless you cut your losses now, before it is too late, Rid yourself of these troublesome sites, or The Mouse will make you its new mate. o~

7/4/2011 #713
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

Enjoy that, because I think he will be not amused. LOL

7/4/2011 #714
Nieriel Raina

Oh it gets better. Been catching up at Fandom Wank.

"It's been such a horrible week," Keith whimpered to his pillow. The pillow did not respond, for which he was quite grateful. Too many people had been asking him difficult questions lately.

The cupboard door above his bed creaked open and his best friend in all the world flumped gently down onto the bed. For an instant, he felt little beady eyes boring into him, then a warm, soft fluffball squidged in between Keith and pillow.

Pooh didn't say anything. He preferred snuggling to thinking, and for a while they just lay there, man, bear and pillow.

"They liked your site," Keith mumbled into Pooh's tattered, honey-sticky ear. "I only want to help them."

"Helping people is good," Pooh said, then his forehead crinkled in a frown. "But sometimes it doesn't go right. Sometimes they don't think they need help." He reached out a paw and stroked Keith's chin, that being the only part of Keith thatr he could reach. "And sometimes people are simply horrible. Then you have to go and find good people instead." He paused. "I know you're lovely, even when you make me hide so you can impress girls."

How could a simple bear always make him feel so much more hopeful? Keith smiled and tugged Pooh's ear gently. "You're right. It's not me, it's them. Time to move on. You know what? Those OTW people seemed jealous..."

7/4/2011 . Edited 7/4/2011 #715
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

ROLFMAO!!!

Meanwhile, now that the incident has hit Fandom Wank, it's a full-on dogpile at his blog. I'm starting to feel sorry for him -- or I would, if there hadn't been some sad fallout to all of this.

7/5/2011 #716
R. Zancan

I've got a job interview tomorrow, woo hoo!

Hope I get it, cause boy, do I need the monehs

I've looked at the Keith Mander thing - I wish more people would say something...

EDIT: Whoops, I've posted this thinking it was the chat thread XD Ohlol.

7/5/2011 . Edited 7/5/2011 #717
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

I've looked at the Keith Mander thing - I wish more people would say something...

Like what? I'm looking at the OTW blog and wishing, lately, that more people would say something intelligent. The Fandom_Wank coverage is starting to bring out the crude and crazy.

7/5/2011 #718
R. Zancan

I wish they'd say something just for the quantity.

It would be good if there could be a petition, or an organised withdrawal of stories from the site.

Yes, it looked like it was getting a bit crude - some people think it's clever to be derogatory in arguments - but this isn't a argument, it's a serious thing that's happening. It's as much of a 'real life' issue that their ever gonna get XD

7/5/2011 #719
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

Wheeeeee!!!!! I got me a mention on Fandom_Wank, about Mander's appearance on the OTW blog:

I find it a lot more curious that the only comment he replies to is from someone named "Randy." lady_ganesh 2011-07-05 04:19 pm UTC

I see what they're getting at -- the dude seems to respect men more than women.

7/5/2011 #720
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