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Thranduil Oropherion Redux

Just what it says -- a worthy successor to our first rant thread. Don't post here until we've finished pissing and moaning in the old one.

8/21/2011 #1
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

Transplant: Olorime said, Adultery and homosexuality are not even related.

You are born a homosexual, you choose to be an adulterous person.

DUH, Milhist!

Try again.

8/24/2011 . Edited 8/24/2011 #2
piewacket

Randy- you might want to make it more clear that those ^ are not your words.

Great thread title!

8/24/2011 #3
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

Well, what makes adultery a sin? It's a breach of faith, one that hurts a mate. As such, it breaks one of two commandments of Jesus -- Love one another. Which I interpret as treating other people as justly as I'd like to be treated.

8/24/2011 #4
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

Randy- you might want to make it more clear that those ^ are not your words.

Done.

8/24/2011 #5
militaryhistory

to Olorime: As far as I know, people choose to engage in homosexual activity, as they choose to engage in adulterous activity.

8/24/2011 #6
Olorime

I think our sanctimonious boy has left the building.

8/24/2011 #7
Olorime

to Olorime: As far as I know, people choose to engage in homosexual activity, as they choose to engage in adulterous activity.

Ugh.

No. Why would anyone choose to be a homosexual? Are you really that daft or is it only when it comes to matter of religion that your IQ drops by about a hundred points?

Because it is such a cake life? Yes, I can see that... it is so easy and cool to be a homosexual. Let's see what we had in the news not too long ago, some boys rammed a broom handle up a boy's anus because they thought he was a homosexual. They tore his rectum and caused a peritonitis. The boy survived only to kill himself later.

8/24/2011 #8
piewacket

No. Why would anyone choose to be a homosexual? Are you really that daft or is it only when it comes to matter of religion that your IQ drops by about a hundred points?

Oli- He said engage in homosexual activity not be a homosexual. There is a big difference.

8/24/2011 #9
militaryhistory

Ah, no. You're not reading what I'm writing. It is a choice to have sex with someone of the same gender, just as it is a choice to have sex with someone of the opposite gender, just as it is a choice to decide to never have sex at all.

Urges are not a choice. What you do with them is.

8/24/2011 #10
Olorime

Oli- He said engage in homosexual activity not be a homosexual. There is a big difference.

I don't think any heterosexual person , other than those who belong to the porn industry, engages in homosexual activity on their own choosing.

8/24/2011 #11
Olorime

Urges are not a choice. What you do with them is.

*rolls eyes*

So you have to deny who you are in order to please a God that made you exactly that way? Homosexuality is not a choice. I repeat, just like heterosexuality isn't a choice.

You are born that way.

You cannot choose to be a heterosexual, you simply are. The same way with homosexuality.

8/24/2011 #12
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

Oli- He said engage in homosexual activity not be a homosexual. There is a big difference.

Quite so. That's what he said. Me personally, I'm not sure I would want to impose involuntary celibacy on someone who was, after all, as God made him. It doesn't seem very 'loving' of one another, even though I respect Milhist's views on this.

In a way, a homosexual person is like a married person whose spouse has deserted them, leaving them 'married' but alone. For them to remarry or enter into another relationship is legally 'adultery' but their only other option would be involuntary celibacy.

8/24/2011 #13
piewacket

You cannot choose to be a heterosexual, you simply are. The same way with homosexuality.

Yes. But you can choose whether or not to have sex. Not a choice that I would make, still...

8/24/2011 #14
piewacket

Quite so. That's what he said. Me personally, I'm not sure I would want to impose involuntary celibacy on someone who was, after all, as God made him. It doesn't seem very 'loving' of one another, even though I respect Milhist's views on this.

I agree with all of the above.

Oli, why is it okay for you to be intolerant but Milhist can't be?

8/24/2011 . Edited 8/24/2011 #15
Olorime

Yes. But you can choose whether or not to have sex. Not a choice that I would make, still...

Which is baloney. Just like Randy said, it is unfair to expect homosexuals to not have sex because they don't fit what a bunch of bearded old fools thought to write thousand of years ago.

Milhist hasn't answered if he keeps kosher, or a beard, or if he would sell his daughter to slavery... since he follows "the law" so strictly.

8/24/2011 #16
Olorime

Oli, why is okay for you to be intolerant but Milhist can't be?

I am not intolerant.

I am simply telling him he is full of shit. The kind of PC world when people can't challenge other people's idea that religion should be golden and exempt from criticism fosters hatred. If he can't take the criticism, then he should never spout his crap. Ever.

8/24/2011 . Edited 8/24/2011 #17
militaryhistory

So you have to deny who you are in order to please a God that made you exactly that way? Homosexuality is not a choice. I repeat, just like heterosexuality isn't a choice.

If not acting on your sexual urges is "denying who you are," then I think I missed the psychology class where it was determined that your entire being was wrapped around your sexual identity. To put it another way, self-denial and denying who you are are two different things. It's suppression versus repression.

8/24/2011 #18
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

Ah, no. You're not reading what I'm writing. It is a choice to have sex with someone of the same gender, just as it is a choice to have sex with someone of the opposite gender, just as it is a choice to decide to never have sex at all.

But you see, Milhist, that gives heterosexuals one more option than homosexuals have. We have the choice to pair up with a partner and enjoy the gift of sexuality, to 'sin', or to be celibate. Homoexuals have only the choice of 'sin' or celibacy. How does one reconcile a loving God with this?

And can we examine the possibility that early people managed to get the 'Law' wrong because of the 'ick' factor? There are plenty of other Laws in Leviticus that we don't find very important today.

8/24/2011 #19
Olorime

If not acting on your sexual urges is "denying who you are," then I think I missed the psychology class where it was determined that your entire being was wrapped around your sexual identity. To put it another way, self-denial and denying who you are are two different things. It's suppression versus repression.

Ummm... sure Milhist. I am sure you are well versed in psychology. Gender and sexuality are huge parts of your personality and mental health. That's why people go funky when something terrible happens to them that is related with those two areas. Like people that have been systematically sexually abused, or those who had their gender chosen for them (like in the case of people being born hermaphrodites).

8/24/2011 #20
militaryhistory

How does one reconcile a loving God with this?

The theory runs something like this: God made humans. Therefore, he knows what is best for humans. He also knows that, as a result of the Fall, humans are messed up. Therefore, certain things are proscribed because they are not what is best for people.

That's how.

And can we examine the possibility that early people managed to get the 'Law' wrong because of the 'ick' factor? There are plenty of other Laws in Leviticus that we don't find very important today.

Mostly having to do with ceremonial matters. And food. Both of which were covered in the NT. And it's not just Leviticus, as I recall there's a few things in Deuteronomy on the subject.

I'm not going to dispute the possibility that there was no consternation among the Hebrew elders when that particular law was mentioned, mind, but I'm afraid I can't endorse the basic premise of your statement.

I feel like we've been here before.

8/24/2011 #21
piewacket

I am simply telling him he is full of shit. The kind of PC world when people can't challenge other people's idea that religion should be golden and exempt from criticism fosters hatred. If he can't take the criticism, then he should never spout his crap. Ever.

*snort* Oli- you are being just as intolerant as you accuse him of being. He's not said that his religion should be exempt from criticism. At least, not that I've ever seen. What I've seen is a young man who has some strong beliefs (many, if not most, of which I vehemently disagree with) and who is willing to engage in conversation. He is consistently polite and respectful of others even while stating his disagreement.

You, on the other hand, use your shield of PCism to browbeat him because his ideas are old fashioned and out of style. You are just as much a religious fanatic as you accuse him of being. The difference being that your religion is PCism and you are neither polite or open minded in your conversation with him.

8/24/2011 . Edited 8/24/2011 #22
militaryhistory

Ummm... sure Milhist. I am sure you are well versed in psychology.

I phrased that poorly. I should have said "definition of personality."

8/24/2011 #23
Olorime

You, on the other hand, use your shield of PCism to browbeat him because his ideas are old fashioned and out of style. You are just as much a religious fanatic as you accuse him of being. The difference being that your religion is PCism and you are neither polite or open minded in your conversation with him.

You did not read what I said at the end. And I will always challenge his views because I can. It may not make me very popular and people like you may think me a fanatic, but I have people shoving their beliefs down my throat everywhere. Government, outside of campus, television.

I may not be polite with him because quite frankly he irks me. Am I open minded? Not in any way you define it, perhaps.

I also tire of reading his slights to homosexuality. As I said, he can say his piece, so can I. If you have a problem with it, you can go back to the LU.

8/24/2011 #24
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

I feel like we've been here before.

We have. My own morality is halfway between yours and Viv's. i think that it's most important to be honest with yourself and to play the hand you're dealt. Don't try to pretend you're straight when you're not. You'll cheat your spouse. Don't try to pretend you can be celibate when that's a choice that was forced on you from without. Our own previous Archbishop had that bite him big time when he fell in love with a man. It would have saved the Archdiocese a lot of money in settlements if he'd been honest with himself and not taken orders.

I'm lucky. I was allowed to be with the sort of person I naturally wanted, and i could marry that person legally.But i try not to judge people who weren't as lucky as I was too harshly.

8/24/2011 #25
piewacket

As I said, he can say his piece, so can I

Why don't you heed your own words:

If he can't take the criticism, then he should never spout his crap. Ever

8/24/2011 . Edited 8/24/2011 #26
militaryhistory

Don't try to pretend you're straight when you're not. You'll cheat your spouse. Don't try to pretend you can be celibate when that's a choice that was forced on you from without. Our own previous Archbishop had that bite him big time when he fell in love with a man. It would have saved the Archdiocese a lot of money in settlements if he'd been honest with himself and not taken orders.

Just out of curiosity, what would you say to a Catholic who intended to become a priest but was straight? Let's face it, celibacy isn't going to be that great for him, either.

8/24/2011 #27
Thranduil Oropherion Redux

Yes, we really should try to respect one another's views, although we disagree. And bottoms line -- some of us are gay, some straight, some bi. Some of us are single and some married. And it's nobody's business who's doing what (or not doing) in bed or with whom.

8/24/2011 . Edited 8/24/2011 #28
hixto

Don't post anything here (I don't trust Iggy.) :p

LOL He told you I've "helped" him before, right?

8/24/2011 #29
Olorime

I am.

I take your criticism. Should I be nice when I don't want to? No.

I never am.

8/24/2011 #30
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