HomeGirls, HomeBoys, and HomeGenderOptionals
A place for fans of 'Home' to converge and discuss pretty much anything about the film, TOS, and of course, Kirk and Spock. Story ideas and recommendations, musings on characterizations, requests, all are welcome. The only thing disallowed is poker.
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Dreamera Tear

I see many of us are up past our bedtimes in order to take part in this.

*clears throat*

Also, I have one question regarding the novels of Star Trek, specifically published slash: those are still legal, am I correct? The Star Trek PTB have been extremely open about keeping the fandom alive by allowing others in. This is slightly OT, but I was just wondering if Fair Use laws are so messy, why then are these novels, which are not that much under the radar, published? I'm just curious.

I believe no one has said anything about them, and the publishers of T'hy'la zine and stuff all even make money off it. Those are the really old school stuff, and I don't think there's been any legal action against them, as far as I know. Actually, come to think of it, does anyone know the people behind T'hy'la zine and the other K/S zines? It'll be nice if we could consult them, coz they'd be people of an older generation that could really be a force to reckon with. They would really be the original fans, and I'm quite sure they'd understand where we're coming from.

I want to see a story where sexuality is just one facet of a character, and not what defines them. I want to see a same-gender relationship portrayed in a positive light, where they are dealing with issues that most people deal with in any other film.

I know what you mean. It'd be pretty awesome if we could project that into the future, such that the the romance/bromance is just a backdrop to the movie, and something that is common. Making it seem that homosexuality is not that much of a big deal in the future, and that everyone can be accepted for who they are. I think that is something that is very important, and something we definitely should try to promote. I mean, who doesn't want to be accepted for themselves, yeah? It's a theme that Star Trek seemed to be about, and I was kinda disappointed I didn't get to see that in the movie.

SEE is a good idea, but to play it safe, I recommend that we don't put Spock or Kirk's name anywhere in there. It would make us seem like nothing but a bunch of slash fangirls (which I kinda think we are *drools*) and we all do have a much more noble goal in mind. So my vote would be for something along the lines of SEE Trek. XD

Right. I'll probably post more about this if I see anymore thought provoking comments here. Teehee.

7/1/2009 #61
eccentric sunshine

"If the writers are smart, they won't alienate K/S fans by writing out their intimate friendship. And even if they do, Chris Pine and Zachary Quinto know what is up with Kirk and Spock and will find a way to make the air between them sizzle like they've already proven they can do. So if you're looking for implication, their bromance will be well enough for slashers out there."

I agree completely with these sentiments of yours, Rex. Could not have said it better myself.

Also, I vote for SEETREKLOVE.

7/1/2009 #62

OKAY, since I can't sleep and I'm having more thoughts, I'd thought I'd go ahead and post them here.

One idea I'm having is to actually have the SEE TREK project, which I'm pretty sure is a good agreeable title at this point, be a long-standing/on-going project to promote LGBT Characters and relationships in mainstream science fiction media. Our first, and obviously largest project, would be to get either K/S into the Trek mainstream, or just to hope for some sort of Bromance between the two, or to ask for gay characters/relationships/ect. Those seem to be the three main contentions for this project, which I'm fine with it going any of those ways, or all. I do think we need a specific focus, but at this point, I'm still just trying to get my head around the logistics. However, as I said, this could be our springboard project into a larger effort to promote LGBT characters and same-gender couples into mainstream science fiction and fantasy. This is only an idea. I think we could do a lot of good for the sci-fi/fantasy community in this way, and it could also be beneficial to spread awareness and tolerance amongst the SF/F community.

Okay, this being said, I am going to go ahead and call attention to anyone with writing skills, specifically legal and/or professional writing skills. There are several documents that need to be drafted, and I can't do it all alone. One such document would be the petition. Once we agree on our unified theme, this will be the document that contains our goal and our intent. Another such document would be the recorded video statement that I am to make. This is going to have to be short, concise, to the point, and most specifically catchy. I need to say something profound about this subject matter quickly. I imagine we'll also need to create a FAQ, so we can up any initial questions, and also contain a lot of pertinent information concerning various facets of our efforts. There were also be many small things that need to be written that I'm sure will come up. Also, it would be great to have someone who has some legal knowledge and writing skills. I imagine we'll need to draft some sort of legal document containing disclaimers of no copyright infringement intended, et cetera. I don't want to be sued, so I want to make sure I cover my tracks. Also, since I'm taking this up mostly on my own personal liability and finances, and willing to expose my face and identity for this project as a pubic figure, I'm going to need as much help as I can get.

Also, I'm agreeing with, for now, leaving Kirk and Spock out of names and branding, until we have a clearer idea of what we are doing. "seetreklove" is catchy I think, and easy to remember. We'll see how that goes in the morning (or today, however you look at it -- I don't sleep much XD).

Someone mentioned having some sort of products awhile back, although I can't think of who it was (sorry), but I do agree that it might be cool to establish some sort of merchandise, so if anyone has any ideas as far as T-Shirts are concerned, or any other merch, go ahead! At this point, I'm willing to consider anything. Since this is in baby stages, the sky's the limit at this point! Hee.

I am interested in keeping the debate alive considering the "goal" of this, and like I said, we seem to have three options:

[K/S Romance] [K/S Bromance] [LGBT Character/Relationship in General], or KSR, KSB, or LGBT -- if you want abbreviations. Those maybe lame, so if anyone has a better labeling idea, chime in.

In my opinion, and this is my opinion, and I still want to hear others, the LGBT argument alone is too passive, while the KSR argument could be too aggressive, so the Bromance argument actually might be a nice middle-ground. Thoughts? I want to argue something that will give attention, that is a short, concise point, but is also not detrimental to what we're attempting to do here. Let me know what you think. I want to get something that we can all get behind, and that includes you too Rex! :)

Keep the ideas coming! Who knows when I'll sleep next. Oh well. I'll just keep thinking while I wait for your responses. ^_^

7/1/2009 . Edited 7/1/2009 #63

Ack, I still haven't gone to bed yet either!

Anyway, this is somewhat relevant if you're thinking of going long-term, broad-scope with this in terms of promoting same-gender couples in SF/F... There's a series of books by Lynn Flewelling called the Nightrunner series, which is (at least the parts I've read) a great example of what's been mentioned in previous posts. I.E. - the two main characters are male and in a relationship together, but a big deal is not made of it nor is it the focus of the novels. It seems to me like something you could point to in example and say, "here, we want something like this."

7/1/2009 #64

Oh, and I don't know what your plans were on facebook, but once there's a logo, there should also definitely be flair and bumper stickers bearing said logo...

7/1/2009 #65

Wow, why didn't I check out this forum sooner? Obviously the title's established, but I'll jut add my opinion that I think it's great. =P If you wanted the GoBold in there, I think it makes a good slogan, as I think someone mentioned.

As for the options of our goal, I think the best angle is simply gay rights support. Considering the title is Social Equality Effort...well, it's not specified to K/S slash, and neither should our end goal be. At least not in proposing it to the writers. Obviously they are the best arguing point, it just doesn't have to be our only one. I've been watching the entire first series through again and it's definitely notable. (Brittany Diamond has written a wonderful analyzation of that relationship in the TOS section of FF.net, going episode by episode.) But I rather like how that relationship was done. Subtle, crafty, but obviously there should you care to look. What I would like from the new movie would be to just bring that out a bit. In this universe, Kirk and Spock are still in the developing stages of their relationship...they don't have that long-established partnership that the primes do.

I'm glad to see someone else had the Vulcan kiss idea. It's something that could be almost snuck in there. I actually imagine as it happens in home. A sly touch with a heated look speaks volumes for a dutiful captain and an 'emotionless' half Vulcan.

I love this idea, this whole movement, as long as we don't go about it like rabid fans, as many slashers are seen to be. Which, as is obvious by this forum, is not necessarily an issue. Does anyone have plans for a Facebook page for this? We could get the Coexist group involved. =P Or groups...I think there's more than one of those, actually. I just think that since Star Trek was always about pushing the envelope, and 'holy crap you speak taboo!' messages, then we should have a fighting chance. Be hopeful, but keep it real, is all I've got to say. If nothing else I at least want the Uhura/Spock thing to stop. xD Hopefully as soon as Spock gets over the loss of his planet and mother, he can stop wanting her comfort, move on, and work on his friendship with Jim.

7/1/2009 #66

Hi everyone! I've got a lot to respond to, and I may not get to it in one post, depending on how work shapes up today, but I'll do my best to be clear and concise (and if anyone has any questions or wants clarification of anything I've said at any point, PLEASE don't hesitate to ask!).

To start with, I'll try to respond to the things you've brought up, Lance. Right off the bat:

To make sure that we're not safely dancing around an issue, I'm going to go ahead and say something: fandoms are you usually operated from behind the lens by fanboys/men in general.

This leads me to believe that I need to define my terms more carefully. When I say "fandom", I am referring to currently-online fandom, the general collective that grew out of zine culture and currently trades in fanfiction and other fanworks. When I say "slash fandom", I am referring to the portion of that community that is interested in slash. Broadly, in the context of these two definitions of "fandom", I will say that your statement is highly inaccurate. Especially with regard to slash fandom, which has and does exist as a female "safe space". Estimates place the slash demographic as high as 90% female, possibly even higher. While there are certainly men involved, and they're quite welcome, slash is a feminine space serving female desires.

I don't know exactly what definition of the term "fandom" you are working from. If you're referring to THE fandom, as in "the source text" (in this case, the Star Trek franchise/movie), or to the mainstream Sci-Fi/Fantasy "fandom" (the people most people would envision when they picture "Trekkies", readers and writers of speculative fiction, etc), then you are fairly correct in your estimation that these are primarily male spaces. There is certainly a female presence, but the male voice does dominate. These people? Are NOT friendly to slash fandom. They HAVE slowly become more accepting, but slash is FAR from a large presence at mainstream SF/F conventions and so on (a single slash panel offered at a major SF/F con is a big deal). And while many of the people who consider themselves SF/F fans may be accepting of homosexuality in real life and in fiction, that's a far cry from them being willing to accept Kirk and Spock explicitly portrayed that way. Even Dumbledore did not have this--J.K. Rowling may have stated that she considered him to be gay, but you will notice that she knew better than to give him a love interest in the books (aside from the slashy undertones to his relationship with Grindelwald).

To proceed directly to your next point: I have to give you two answers about "published" slash, since I'm not quite clear to what you're referring. "Profic" (a term applied to the PTB-approved, licenced Star Trek novels) would not be considered slash. There are certainly some famously slashy titles (Killing Time, or The Entropy Effect, for example, which are known for being very K/S-leaning--Killing Time was actually written by a slash fan, and was famously edited to be less slashy), but these novels never explicitly establish a romantic K/S relationship. They are possibly slightly more slashy than the show and the films (for instance, the term "T'hy'la" was only used in the novelization of Star Trek: The Motion Picture, never on-screen), but they have never allowed the franchise to go that far. Profic is edited and approved by the PTB before hitting the shelves, and the rights holders of the franchise make money off the sales of these titles.

If, on the other hand, you are referring to zines, that's a different animal entirely. Zines are our esteemed ancestors. Slash fandom began in zine format, and when it existed in that format, it was far, far further underground than it is now. The internet has pretty much blown the lid off a very secretive subculture, in our case. But, zines were simply fanfiction in a different distribution format. The audience was far smaller than the audience for fic today, and it was (and is) far easier for the PTB to ignore zines than it is to ignore online fandom. As regards the financial aspect, zine editors do not "make money" off zines. The prices for zines may seem high, but that's because photocopying and binding are not exactly cheap. Zine editors charge for zines because they need to cover their costs and the price of shipping. There has always been an unwritten rule that you do not make a profit off fanwork. This is one of the crucial elements of the argument that fanwork is NOT copyright infringement, and why people add disclaimers to their fics ("I don't own X, it belongs to X, Y, and Z, and I am making no money off this").

(I'm going basically straight down your post hitting points to respond to, so I'm sorry if this post switches topic rather abruptly...)

With regard to the fandom/fanfiction correlation--slash fandom has always been intrinsically linked to fanwork. Without fanfiction and other fanwork, you don't have a slash fandom. It's our common medium, our means of communicating our ideas and viewpoints to one another. Whether an individual actually writes fanfiction her- or himself does not matter. We could certainly debate the precise definition of a "fandom" fan vs. a "fan", but to my mind, one is not a member of "fandom" unless one consumes some form of fanwork (it is, of course, perfectly possible to be a fan of Star Trek without being part of fandom). While there may be exceptions, I think any attempt to separate slash fandom, even theoretically, from the creation and distribution of fanwork would be very misguided.

(I'm skipping down a bit, now. @Lyrical Rex and @Lance again, but in a different post:)

If the writers are smart, they won't alienate K/S fans by writing out their intimate friendship. And even if they do, Chris Pine and Zachary Quinto know what is up with Kirk and Spock and will find a way to make the air between them sizzle like they've already proven they can do.

In my opinion, and this is my opinion, and I still want to hear others, the LGBT argument alone is too passive, while the KSR argument could be too aggressive, so the Bromance argument actually might be a nice middle-ground.

If your end-goal to this campaign is bromance/ho-yay? I'm sorry to say, but you may as well skip all the work. You're going to get PLENTY of that anyway--we already HAVE; the movie was full of it. Regardless of what the script ends up saying, Captain Fine and ZQ are all over the Kirk/Spock bromance. If you watch their interviews (spend a few minutes on ontd_startrek's video posts, it will make your life happy), they love the Kirk-Spock dynamic. They have been calling it "Spork". In interviews. And considering the PTB have set up the next film to have some serious relationship building between Kirk and Spock (in terms of their working relationship and their friendship), there will definitely be a high level of slashy content for those who are looking for it. If you want more of it? It would be perfectly acceptable to contact the PTB and say, Hey, we love the Kirk-Spock bromance. Moar plz? (well, perhaps with less netspeak... XD ). The term "bromance" has entered the vernacular of the industry, without negative connotations, and showing support for its presence is definitely a good thing. (I will still maintain that pushing for an explicitly or implicitly stated "canon" K/S romance has an abysmally low chance of success, much as we slash fans may want it to happen.)

(Skipping again... @angell:)

Actually, come to think of it, does anyone know the people behind T'hy'la zine and the other K/S zines? It'll be nice if we could consult them, coz they'd be people of an older generation that could really be a force to reckon with. They would really be the original fans, and I'm quite sure they'd understand where we're coming from.

These people are actually the ones who would probably be very against this campaign. The "older" generation of fans still falls heavily on the side of the Fight Club mentality, and would likely not look favorably on pushing for slash as canon. Also, if you're going to approach the "original" Trek fandom? You're going to have to tone down the Uhura-hate. (This is sort of speaking to everyone, just as an FYI.) There is widespread support among the "older generation" of Trek fans for the Spock/Uhura ship in the new canon. Many of these people liked the suggestion of the pairing in ToS. And a good portion of Trek fandom, at least the part you're talking about approaching, is thrilled about the presence of not only an interracial but an inter-species romance involving a strong, female character of color in a mainstream film franchise, especially since it breaks the "Captain gets the girl" theme at the same time. To address specifically some people's "at least" in this discussion--you will lose a lot of support from certain sectors of Trek fandom if you approach the PTB about "at least" eliminating the Spock/Uhura romance plotline.

Again, I'd like to reiterate that it pretty much kills me to have to play devil's advocate here. I would pretty much die of love if there was K/S on my movie screen in a couple of years. Lance, I'd be quite happy to stick around as a "voice of reason", as you suggest, and I will try not to dampen anyone's spirits too much. I self-identify as bisexual, so LGBT rights and representation in popular culture are very important to me, and I'm thrilled that so many people are interested in showing their support for positive representations of LGBT characters. But as a slash fan, I also don't want to, as someone said, "scare off" the PTB from including the bromance and shades of homoeroticism that they are already allowing into the franchise. I honestly do believe that all of you have the best of intentions; my goal is simply to make sure that this is thought out carefully so that this cause does not end up bringing about unintended negative consequences.

(I'm sure I've managed to miss important points somewhere, but I think this is already long enough! ...And I should probably do some work today. Just attending the July book launch meeting does not really qualify as a day's work, I don't think... XDDD Still subscribed, will reply as necessary, etc etc.)

One final note, since I just thought of this (and feel rather stupid for not thinking of it sooner!)--if you want to promote LGBT representation in SF/F in general and Trek specifically, the group you SHOULD consider contacting is the Gaylaxians. That's pretty much one of their founding principles. Gaylacticnetwork.org is the site, I believe. THAT would be a group who could offer you sound advice as to the best ways to proceed (and how NOT to proceed, if necessary). And I'm sure they'd welcome enthusiastic participation by the new generation of SF/F and Trek fans.

7/1/2009 #67

One advantage of actually picking a ship, as opposed to disadvantage (which have been given valid argument), is that it's specific - arguments can be made to support that particular relationship, and various interpretations of it. I'm all for additionally supporting any kind of acknowledgement of sexual openness in Star Trek, but the downside to just going 'let's do that, please' is that, with modern entertainment the way it is, I'm pretty sure the result would be 'hey, look, red-shirt Ricky has a boyfriend!' about five minutes before the blob-monster eats him.

With Kirk/Spock, as Lance mentioned, we get the arguments for a specific dynamic. There's history. There are essays. If there was another same-sex ship with as many arguments in their cast, I would advocate we use them instead, but regardless of whether you're Kirk/Spock or Kirk/McCoy or Spock/McCoy or Sulu/Chekov or Rand/Chapel or anything I think you have every right to be, K/S is the one that made slash.

Media is like any other commodity - people make it, and they sell it. If we want to change the product, we have to speak up, and the less 'oh, any old thing will do' we are about it, the better. I'm not saying we should start making ridiculous demands (we shouldn't), but I'm also saying that there's no reason to be timid - just matter-of-fact. Play it Vulcan, I say. Be calm and logical, because there are good arguments here, and the more that can be made, the better. In all likelihood, I would count it a success if the arguments for K/S convinced the writers that at least some nod to Star Trek's ground-breaking traditions needed to be made, and some completely unrelated character got to be bi-sexual, like 'here, Chekov's got an implied crush on Ensign Random Dude over there'.

It's comparative, right? If we ask for the two main characters to hook up, it feels like more a compromise in the argument as a whole to have something, if not exactly what we're asking for. If we ask for just some same-sex romance, I can almost guarantee you that the best to be hoped for is Ensign Ricky pre-blob monster. And they will pat themselves on the back for being such good sports about it, too, because they live in a bubble where they actually consider that progressive. At worst, the argument will be too extreme and scare them off completely - but I'd rather have that than some idiot red-shirt and a two second clip. I think it's worth the risk.

Being inside of the slash bubble can, I think, make you forget what it's like to be outside of it. My sister's not a slash fan. When I suggested Kirk/Spock to her - oh man, you should have seen the look on her face! It was essentially 'gross'. So I rolled my eyes, and went online, and found her a soft, slow romantic fanvid with clips from TOS, and set it down in front of her.

Five minutes later?


Sometimes you have to show people exactly what you're talking about in order to get past their knee-jerk reflexes against it. My sister thought 'two dudes having sex, not something I want to think about, especially not two dudes I grew up with!'. But the reality was 'love story'.

7/1/2009 #68
Dreamera Tear

Whoa! Long post... you really put a lot of thought into this! Thanks so much! Don't feel bad about playing devil's advocate - We really do need one as people like me are inexperienced about this kinda stuff - I come from a really really closed-minded society when it comes to homosexuality; it's actually illegal here I believe. One of the best teachers in our elite schools got fired because he came out of the closet, and I think that was really what fired my passion for this.

Okay. *considers SolarCat's points*

Okay, the first burning question that comes to mind for me was this, I've read about other compaigns that seem to have some success for other tv shows and stuff. Admittedly, the homosexual relationship was already established, but fans petitioned and begged producers/directors and stuff for more action in the series, and eventually they did get what they wanted. I think that was some soap drama in the US? Can't remember the name, but if that actually did work (and the soap's been running since the 1950s or something like that) , I would think that we actually have a shot at this. I for one am not even asking for much, just that homosexual relationships be a little more highlighted in the next movie, to show that our optimistic future includes the acceptance of homosexuality as something that is normal, and that homosexuals and bisexuals are not much different from us. Of course, as a K/S fan, I do see the K/S relationship as one of the more appropriate ways of expressing this ideal for ST, but it doesn't definitely have to be it.

Secondly, the point about Uhura - I don't exactly see us as bashing her. It's not an Uhura-hate, it's more like I don't like the way she was portrayed in the movie. It felt rather... sexist. Honestly speaking, towards the end of the movie I didn't feel as if she was doing anything other than being the pretty girl on the ship that sleeps with one of the main characters. And I know she's definitely not that, because Uhura is, as you said, a strong, female character that definitely is kick-ass and represents gender equality for the future. The vibes were stronger in the front part of the movie, but it died down towards the end, and somehow I was just so disappointed by it. Mind you, I wasn't even that big a K/S fan then, because it was my first experience with Star Trek. What I might probably go for would be making her role a little more important in terms of helping the main protaganists with the action going on around them, with a more active girl rather than being like the girl who just provides emotional support, which totally sucks. The Spock/Uhura thing just totally ruined that for me, but that's just my opinion *shrugs*

I mean, I don't know, but it just feels like Star Trek was supposed to be more intellectual and more political and stuff, and it didn't come out that way. My older bro's a fan of the old Trek, and he told me that Star Trek felt like a Star Wars in a different universe. I think Lanaea can identify with that *points to the comparison between SW and ST in her profile*

... And I think I'm not making much sense anymore coz it's like midnight here. I'll try again tomorrow since I have no papers till Friday. -_-"

7/1/2009 #69


Here is the website I designed for my wedding back in December:

Past that, I am a trained paralegal with plenty of persuasive writing experience, so I'm available for any writing/legal help. I discovered I hate working in the law field, so I'm back at school training to be a teacher; but I still have my law background, which I will definitely pull out for this! :)

7/1/2009 #70

Ha, yes. I do apologize for the Wall-o-Text. Fannish history and sociology are really interesting to me, and when I get started, I tend to ... not stop. ^_^;; I'll try not to be too obnoxiously wordy, I promise!

I believe you might be referring to the Luke and Noah storyline on As the World Turns? If so, the effectiveness of the fan campaign is somewhat debatable--the soap's core audience (which is certainly not slash fans) didn't react with overwhelming joy to the introduction of a homosexual relationship to the show, so while the relationship was kept it was downplayed (they didn't get a kiss on Valentine's Day, for example). To be honest I haven't kept up with developments there, as I lost interest in the storyline after a while. (Anyone who's interested can probably still follow the relationship from its beginnings on YouTube--look up "LukeVanFan".) The obvious difference, which you pointed out, is that this is a relationship that the PTB had already determined to put on the screen, and the fans were simply advocating that they keep it and, preferably, give it equal consideration alongside the heterosexual relationships depicted in the show. Those sorts of campaigns would tend to have a higher success rate than attempting to convince them to introduce something they hadn't planned to.

I'm by far more in favor of petitioning for a positive portrayal of homosexuality than I am for petitioning for K/S, for a lot of reasons, most of which I've already laid out (at length... XD ). While I understand the urge to use examples (and perhaps we can reference the fact that people have been seeing this in the subtext of the show for decades), I fear that if we approach the PTB with "Hey, look how awesome K/S is!", we will be easily and quickly dismissed as "those crazy fans", whereas if we are approaching them with a request for equal representation as a social cause, we gain a certain amount of legitimacy in their eyes. Including the legacy of slash fandom as a point of argument/evidence in our favor is rather different from approaching them with a proposal that they should make K/S (or any other pairing) canon.

I will qualify that "Uhura-hate" was probably a bit too strong of a phrasing to choose, and I will apologize for that. I agree that there were problematic elements to her characterization and role in the film, and for my part, I had issues with the pairing mainly because of the way I interpreted and viewed Spock's character, both in ToS and in the new film. But I hope, despite the strong phrasing, that I was able to convey the point that it is wise to be careful of how we characterize and approach others' ships. Shipwars are not pleasant experiences, and the new!Trek fandom has been incredibly lucky in that we have not, thus far, experienced much in the way of pairing strife (it seems IDIC may extend to the current fannish sphere as well as the original--so much the better!). I likewise hope for more of Uhura as a strong character in her own right in the next film (and personally I hope they tone down the Spock/Uhura, but again, that's my own personal taste, and I can respect those fans who do support it for whatever reason).

Regarding the Star Wars comparison... it's said that there are only two stories; Man Goes on a Journey and A Stranger Comes to Town. Star Trek XI is, at its heart, a Hero's Journey story (featuring two heroes, as it happens). George Lucas leaned heavily on Campbell's ideas about the Hero's Journey in the creation of the Star Wars films. At their heart, both Star Wars and the new Trek film are variations on Man Goes on a Journey. In the new film, we are seeing the beginning of the story of this alternate version of the Enterprise's journeys. Getting from Kirk the Rebel to Kirk the Captain was a pretty big task, and as a result there was not much time to get into politics and such.

However, if you pay very close attention, there ARE interesting things happening in the political/social sphere of the film. There has been interesting thought about the effects of the violent appearance of the Romulans (many years "early") on interactions between Vulcan and the rest of the Federation, in particular how this impacted Spock and how this may have been responsible for the differences between Spock Prime and New Spock in terms of characterization. To paraphrase someone else (whose screenname I have forgotten), there is a big difference growing up the son of an Ambassador who married an "inferior" but largely inoffensive human woman, and growing up the son of a "race traitor". That's a very shocking way to put it (and is far from the only interpretation of the behind-the-scenes landscape of the New!Federation), but the conceivable rise in xenophobia and tense relations within the Federation shed some interesting light on the level of detailed thought that went into the film and the changes in various characters' personalities and so on.

It's not, perhaps, the type of political and social consciousness you were referring to, but then, a television show has a lot more screen time and leeway to address things like that than a feature film (and, honestly, when films TRY to do that, it usually shows, and is often poorly received).

7/1/2009 #71
Lyrical Rex

Note: I HATE FFN'S FORUM. Worst entry form ever. Ugh.

That said, I'll have to point out that the movie industry thinks you can either have a blockbuster with cool CGI and explosions OR be a social statement. Star Trek blurs the line, just a little bit though it stays on the blockbuster side of things. However, like SolarCat points out, xenocide, xenophobia, and inter-racial couples counts as a little bit of social commentary. I'm expecting more in later movies, like how His Dark Materials starts off all quaint and by the third book is thrusting anti-theology down everyone's throats left and right... although hopefully not come on nearly as strong. No, I am not making a pitiful attempt to drop names like SolarCat keeps doing. *shifty eyes.* The Joseph Campbell point is totally true. It's a proven formula, why not use it, right?

I don't have anything new to say, but once we get everything on track, I'm willing to help out with projects. Maybe, while hitting up the K/S and slash lj comms, we could start our own for the cause. I'd be interested in co-moderating.

7/1/2009 #72

(This forum layout really is awful... Of course, I've gotten far too used to LJ's tiered threads, so I'm a bit biased. lol.)

Eep. Sorry about the name dropping everywhere! I tend to build webs of association and draw on them, so sometimes I pull examples and illustrations from... um. Everywhere? And I forget other people's brains don't work that way. ^_^;; *will try to be good*

Complete truth about Hollywood, though. You're either a CGI Blockbuster or a terribly dramatic social statement about something or other--one makes money, the other wins awards. *sigh*

7/1/2009 #73
eccentric sunshine

God, everybody's post was so well-put and LONG! I'm going to do a short one for a change of pace XD (and it seems like all I've doing is agreeing, oh well)

① KS Bromance IS something in the new movie that's been widely recognized by people all over the world, as evident in all those interviews with ZQ and CP in the world tour. TPTB IS aware of the slash fandom, of course, and the bromance was obviously an effort to appeal to those fans, e.g. the choking scence with KS. And the great thing is, these scenes have all the strong emotions, conflicts, angst, etc. that will get slash fans excited, but they can also easily be interpreted as just two men building a strong friendship/connection/bond. This is why I think that a meld between them is a very good point to propose for the next movie to have, because it has that potential to inspire those vague scenes that will satisfy fans from both slash and non-slash fandoms. Also, considering the Vulcan philosophy on melding between a couple, to me it sounds just like a form of sex (pardon me if I'm wrong).

② I realize that K/S was the origin of slash, so there's a history. But that doesn't make it easier for it to be more same-sex relationship friendly, as there are so many divisions of fans out there, who all want different things, and I don't think the slash fans make up a more significant portion than others. This fact alone, is why I don't believe there will be anything beyond bromance, because ultimately TPTB is trying to make money.

I want to reiterate that I'm only of fan of the nuTrek, and my knowlege of TOS or other previous works does not go beyond the common. And what I've said is only my opinions, with no intentions to impose them on anyone else.


7/1/2009 . Edited 7/1/2009 #74
Lyrical Rex


That wasn't a criticism. I like hearing from random sources! Usually I like to be the one pulling in random references, it makes me feel smart, but since I'm totally out of my depth here... Anyway, don't feel like you need to stop! :D

@eccentric sunshine

Mind melding is said to be really intimate, but Spock of TOS does it a lot. Usually at Kirk's request, and Spock's only half-Vulcan, so the meaning might not be quite the same to him. However, if Spock mentions how intimate mind melding really is in the movies... which he should, I mean, since what Spock Prime did to Jim was a big deal... That would be a nice. And a little bit slashy.

7/1/2009 #75
eccentric sunshine

@Lyrical Rex: The reason why I'm pushing the meld idea is largely because it's been so beautifully written in the fanfics, i.e. Home and Breaking Points. To me it's the ultimate representation of intimacy and trust. And I'm aware of the fact that the Primes did this very often. That's why I thought having them do a meld in the new movie would be more relevant than, say, a Vulcan kiss. Meld is such a good and easy plot device, in my opinion.

7/1/2009 #76
Lyrical Rex

@eccentric sunshine: I like that idea. :]

7/1/2009 #77
Catri Howlman-Carthaki spy

(I'm not so good with legalities, but maybe I could be a human spellcheck?)

So...our main focus: (as it appears so far)

Request to have Nyota Uhura represented as a strong female character rather than a love interest. (Nothing wrong with her in a relationship, but she's a solid character in her own right, not just something pretty to hang off a male character's arm. Tap into her potential, please.)

(Possibly) Make a legitimate argument for developing a K/S relationship in the movie(s). (A subtle one, not overt. TOS was subtle about it, so it is possible. It's not we expect them to jump each other at the end of the movie, but show them getting closer at least.) (Does this count as "bromance"?)

(Possibly) Respectfully request a LGBT couple in the movie. (It can be a crush, it can be a pre-established couple. Either way, it should be there. This is the future. I personally find it hard to believe that "who-sticks-whose-genitals-where in a consenting relationship" is that controversial. A woman married an alien, for goodness' sake! If inter-species relationships are acceptable, why not inter-gender? Are you telling me they're more worried about human males having sex with each other than they are about a human female having sex with a non-human male? I imagine that in the future it would be a non-issue. Therefore, why not represent such couples in the film? It's not like it has to be plot relevant, especially seeing as the relationship between Spock and Uhura in the movie was not plot relevant. It was presented as a non-issue - albeit a poorly introduced one - therefore any LGBT relationship can be presented as a non-issue... and hopefully one that is better intertwined in the movie, meaning: Don't slap it up out of practically nowhere. At least hint strongly at it before you wave it in our faces.)

I think that last bit should have been a separte point, but oh well.

Did I sum that up correctly? Did I miss anything? Did I add something that wasn't supposed to be in there? Don't hesitate to correct me; I did it partly for my own benefit, so that I'd understand what we were focusing on (It seemed a bit vague). Hopefully (if I'm right) it'll clear things up for people who are a bit confused (or for me, if I'm a bit confused)(or more than a bit).

7/1/2009 #78

The Kirk/Spock mind-melds have always been highly eroticized by the slash fandom (even though there weren't really a lot of them in ToS--at least, not as many as reading a lot of fic might lead you to believe! XD ). I likewise hope we get one in the next film. It would be a real landmark moment for their relationship, no matter which "level" you prefer to infer their relationship is on (friends, shipmates, lovers, whatever). And one that would fit quite seamlessly into Trek canon while giving a fantastic moment to the slashers.

(Though, I had a fantastically brilliant thought last time I went to see the film, which was simply: HOW exactly did Spock convey to Kirk exactly where they were keeping Captain Pike, given that the Romulan ship is completely foreign to them--and, as Scotty's comments about where the cargo bay should be attest, certainly not laid out with Federation logic--and that Kirk then gets into a fight and jumps DOWN a level, yet still manages to find Pike within a relatively short period of time, even allowing for movie!time compression? I cannot express how much I want to read the off-screen mind-meld fic. There are no words for how joyous I would be. ...I really should put that one up at the kink meme or something... .;; Yes, that was completely OT for the thread, sorry. XD )

7/1/2009 #79

Random opinions of mine:

1. I love the mind meld. It is intimate and beautiful and a good plot device. But it is also ambiguous. A Vulcan kiss would be much more definitive.

2. I would take any favorable representation of a GLBT relationship. However, here are the two reasons that I'm pushing K/S so much:

--This has never been done before. We've never had a blockbuster where the hero is involved with a member of the same sex. J.K. Rowling attempted to change that when she "outed" Dumbledore, but it was never mentioned outright in the books nor will it be alluded to in the movies (as far as I've heard.)There have been plenty of TV shows/movies where a GLBT couple features as supporting characters, but nothing like this.

--Fans have been seeing the love undertones of the K/S relationship for years. Even Gene Roddenberry saw it. I would take any ship, really, as my goal here is the promotion of equality, but K/S is the most... well, logical.

@whoever made the comments about Uhura's character being a sexist caricature, I agree wholeheartedly. She deserves more than what she got. She deserves to be more than Spock's arm candy.

7/1/2009 #80

@ SolarCat: Excellent point. I just may have to write that. :)

7/1/2009 #81

If you do, I will be forever indebted to you. No, seriously. (lessthanthree)

ETA: stupid FF.net hating pointy brackets... *scowl*

7/1/2009 . Edited 7/1/2009 #82
Lyrical Rex

I disagree with everyone who thinks the new Uhura is little more than "Spock's arm candy." She's a fantastic character in the film, strong and independent and really smart. Yes, she kisses Spock, but she's not just Spock's girl, she's his emotional anchor, which at that point is really important, especially when his relationship with Kirk hasn't been developed yet. She's headstrong and takes no shit from anyone (like when she forces Spock to assign her to the Enterprise) and is nothing less than professional (except when she kisses Spock when he's about to leave for the Romulan ship, but that's a special case). What is unfortunate is that she doesn't have a subplot or more screen time, but it's the trade-off they had to make for Kirk and Spock to get to know each other.

7/1/2009 #83
eccentric sunshine

@Lyrical Rex: For me, it didn't seem very professional when she forces Spock to switch her assignment. It bothered me. But of course she's not Spock's arm candy, she is so talented and has so much potential. It's just that toward the end of the movie they didn't give her much screen time, which may have something to do with her position as a communication specialist - there's not much communicating going on when they were trying to get away from the black whole, after all.

7/1/2009 . Edited 7/1/2009 #84
Pirate College Graduate

@Lance: Aw, shucks, you made me blush! Thanks for the compliment! And I'm all game for this now, trust me. I'm on board. I've already attempted to advertise a bit on twitter, like "hey, ask me about SEE Trek", but no one's bitten yet. Eventually they will though. Oh they will.

@LyricalRex: I see what you're saying, but I was still disappointed by the end of the film with Uhura's role. To me, at the beginning, she seemed strong and independent; one who could take care of herself. And sexy to boot. Yeah, I'm a girl, but I think she's hot. If it wasn't okay for me to find someone of the same sex attractive this topic wouldn't exist. But from halfway through to the end she seemed to have very few lines or purpose beyond kissing Spock in elevators and transporter rooms. I feel as if the writers had a great plan for her character and then forgot all about that plan halfway through. I'd like to see her character develop in some form or fashion in the next film.

@Everyone: One of my hopes is this. In the next film, I hope they don't just incorporate random K/S moments out of nowhere. In the last film, I honestly thought I saw a few subtle ones. For example, at one point Spock is talking to Kirk about citing regulation, he stares down at Kirk's lips. In another, they give each other serious stares and all that. Which is great, but in the end means nothing if Spock is with Uhura. I just hope in the next one, if Spock and Uhura are together, that the writers don't do the same thing. Does anyone see what I'm saying? I'm having a hard time putting this into words, myself. I just hope that the Kirk/Spock interaction doesn't come out of nowhere. If Spock and Uhura are together, but Spock and Kirk flirt with each other, that's not enough. If those boys are going to interact in an almost sexual manner, it needs to actually be addressed, and not left to just be implied. Basically, if Kirk and Spock flirt, that needs to be addressed and/or developed. If anyone else sees my point and has a better way of wording it, please feel free!

I believe that's all I have to say....Nope! I just had to be immature and say that I like how when Spock says "if I don't return please tell Lieutenant Uhura-" he's cut off. If he was going to say "I love her", we'll never know, which makes it easier to break the relationship up in the next one. Because I'm a bad girl.

That is all.


7/1/2009 . Edited 7/1/2009 #85
Crazy Like A Fawkes

Sometimes you have to show people exactly what you're talking about in order to get past their knee-jerk reflexes against it. My sister thought 'two dudes having sex, not something I want to think about, especially not two dudes I grew up with!'. But the reality was 'love story'.

This is so incredibly true. I was very hesitant about slash at first, but my friend convinced me to read some, and after you do you realize that it isn't any weirder than a heterosexual romance. It is just two people in love, and there is nothing wrong with that. I've noticed that many people who are most strongly opposed to things are the ones that have never given it a chance. This takes away from their credibility, and leaves them with weak arguments.

People have been talking about a subtle bromance sort of thing, and I think that would be best. In TOS, they left it ambiguous. It was open to the viewers interpretation, and you could see what you wanted to see in their relationship. It is that drawing of the old woman/young woman. It can be two different things - one is harder to find, but once you see it, its obvious.

7/1/2009 #86

*waves hello* Lurker here! I just wanted to mention something regarding Uhura's characterization and/or pairing. Tread carefully. I personally feel that there was a lot of wasted potential in the movie version of Uhura but not everyone agrees, and going down that route has the potential to be more divisive that persuasive. I think this thread (which is wavering on the line between discussion and wank, IMO) over at the st_xi_kink meme is a good demonstration of how polarizing bringing that issue up could be:

7/1/2009 #87

Okay, so I managed to get some sleep! Hurrah! 5 hours is better than nothing, right? Being on a summer night-class schedule is not conducive to normal sleeping patterns, dammit. xD

I'm glad that some more points have been made, and I'm glad that this topic is even still alive. I honestly didn't expect the amount of response I have recieved thus far. Thank you guys for taking the time out of your days, nights, and potential work times to help out. This is, like I've said, a big project for me, and I'm glad that people are here to cover my tracks and keep me grounded, pardon the metaphors. This being said, I'd like to go ahead and address some more concerns brought up.

@SolarCat, Again, thank you so much for playing Devil's Advocate. I know it must be difficult, specifically given the fact that you'd like what I want just as much, you simply are potentially more realistic about such an endeavor. Thank you again. You raised a few points (understatement), and I'm too lazy to go back and look, so I'm going to address the ones that stick out in my mind. If I miss any, I will go back and address them. I think you misunderstood me considering what I was talking about in fandoms; I was merely pointing out that the industry that controls the majority of SF/F [including the PTB] is mostly male-dominated (mostly heterosexual). And while these people may be accepting or at least tolerant of homosexuality in general, I do agree with the contention that they might be hesitant to agree that an iconic pair of heroes may be homosexual (which, I think we can all agree, is incredulous -- ultimately, it shouldn't matter), but it is as you said; I'd be naive to think otherwise. This is why this endeavor is going to take more than a bland statement such as "GAYZ IN TREK - WANT. kthx lolz. but srsly," to continue the interwebz speak, if I may. ;)

This is why, as I've said, it is important that our goal be something that can catch attention, hold it, shake it up a bit, and then release said victim with a new sense of purpose. K/S is very much a powerful statement, in my opinion, but I do understand the concern to avoid being "those crazy fans." But to avoid this, I think it would be wise to avoid referencing fanfiction (which I do realize is inexorably attached to fandom, as you've said, my point is that we can argue ship without referencing fanfiction, which is only one facet of the fandom). Think of it this way. In my opinion, fanfiction does not define a fan. It is a part of said fan, but it is not by definition the defining characteristic by which that fan most likely chooses to live. In the same way, sexuality (as I've said) does not define a person. I agree to cast off such asset of oneself would be foolish, and unwise even; however, there is a point in where grandstanding such asset could be seen as detrimental to said cause. I'm not interesting it waving a piece of fanfiction in front of the producers and saying "oh hai! read thiz! its teh awesumz! srsly," pardon the internet speak again.

I am interested, however, in some of the points Lanaea referenced, such as showing the hard, cold facts, and demonstrating how it could be effective, and expressing the desire to see this relationship continue further into slashery. It's a risk, but a risk that I'm more than willing to take. While I know they are aware of slash, and the speculation about the nature of the relationship between K/S, I think we have a unique opportunity to let them know what we want. I apologize if I am starting to sound like a broken record.

Also, thinking back on it, asking for bromance is essentially more passive than the LGBT argument. It was late, so I apologize again if any of my reasoning and logic were off. I'm on the side of at least implicitly asking for K/S. My opinion is still that the worst they can say is no, and I think if we cover our tracks, we can do this with as little backfire as possible. I think asking for K/S under the umbrella of a LGBT-driven SF/F group would be enough to get the writers to see that they perhaps do need to reach out more to the LGBT community, and not in an Ensign Ricky way. Just asking for "gayz pls" is too passive of an argument, at least for me; however, if we do so as a pro-gay SF/F group, then we may get some positive results, which yes, would be a compromise, but at least we did something.

On Uhura: I feel like I've not chimed in on this conversation. I will go ahead and say that I agree with what has been said about her status as a current caricature; however, I believe we should not be quick to tell the producers to get rid of the relationship with Spock. It has been referenced previously that the "love triangle," is not finished, so TPTB have plans for that triangle. I don't think we need to wish it away. We need to ask for a continuation of that plot thread, with a slight kink thrown in to the mix (pardon the FF reference xD). I think tension between the three characters would be unprecedented, and it would certainly make for a very interesting story. I do support advocating Uhura as a strong female character, and perhaps this could be one of our side-projects? Thoughts? Encouraging a strong Uhura character could actually be seen as an attractive campaign, and maybe it could be bait for others to join the main K/S project? ...Does this way of thinking make me manipulative and/or deviant? xD

On the Gaylaxians: I will be contacting them, thank you for the reference. I'm still not sure exactly in what capacity I will be contacting individual groups, but I'm sure they'll be more than supportive if we ask in the right way. This is something else I'm going to need help writing: invitations, inquiries, et cetera, that will serve as methods of gaining affiliates and supporters.

Also, on Lanaea's point about a knee-jerk reaction: I have experienced the exact same thing with others. At first, people are like whoa, that's weird; however, soon, I think they accept the idea rather than reject it. It will just take some positive reinforcement, and some sound logic and reason, like a Vulcan (as Lanaea said), and I think people will be generally be receptive. There will be some negative attitudes toward it, of course, and probably some animosity, but that is to be expected. Anything you present based on arguments will become a point of debate (as we have seen here, we've all been civil thus far, and I doubt that'll change) and sometimes flaming (as seen daily on YouTube video comment chains -_-). But I think, for most people, reception will be initially a knee-jerk reaction, and then acceptance (if not, at least tolerance) to the idea.

On the mind-meld: I also hope we get some hot finger on brain action; however, as I've said, methods of execution are not our primary concern. We are interested in getting the K/S idea out there, not tell TPTB "GIVE US KISS, VULCAN KISS, PON FARR, MIND MELD, AND CHEEZBURGER, OR ALL UR BASE ARE BELONG TO US." We want to tell them, civilly, "we are a group of fans who express the desire to see the relationship (which already has deep roots) between Kirk and Spock explored on screen beyond what is perceived to be the normal convention," and additionally, "we express the desire to see a presence of LGBT lead characters and relationships that are at the forefront of normal-day activity. Or (in the case of Trek) not-so-normal epic activity, your choice." xD

Okay, phew. That is all I have for now, and again, if I missed anything, I will go back and address it soon.

Also, @gisela.tinuelena, writing help would be amazing. I'll be in touch, and your paralegal experience will be very handy indeed. Thanks again for offering to help with the website, and I will be in touch on both aspects.

Also, it would probably be beneficial to have an efficient and available proofreader. Any volunteers?

Concerning the website: I just thought of some references for the style of website I am envisioning. I really like the design of coldplay.com, and also for another reference: I like the design of the "Love is the Move Ment" t-shirts and campaign. I'm kind of envisioning somewhat of an artsy design style like this, and if anyone has graphic experience like this, that would be wonderful. Thoughts?

Okay, I'm going to go grab lunch before I starve then I will be back to begin the work on setting up accounts and such. By the way, I'm still looking for volunteers to do writing, artistic, or marketing work. Please, please, let me know if you're interested. Thank you guys! Keep rocking it out.

7/1/2009 #88
Me Or The Wallpaper

For banners in support of this- I think it would be more beneficial to our cause if they looked less like OTP banners and more like... I don't know, strong? Like, and I don't mean to offend anyone here- instead of having a banner of fanart with Kirk and Spock with allot of hearts around them with 'SEE Trek' in the background, we could have the two nuKirk & Spock and have SEE Trek in the middle or something like that, with a slogan underneath. Remember, our main goal should really be less to get a favorite pairing together and more to get things like this kind of relationship into the mainstream, and to help Star Trek carry on showing a world more idealistic than the one we're living in and basically make social changes and all that jazz. Just saying.

7/1/2009 #89


Yeah, personally I like the idea of LGBT in general for the theme, with a starting focus on Star Trek specifically K/S, making it obvious we're willing to negotiate.

The mind meld is a brilliant idea. It's easy to slash up if we want to but the writers can still play it off as gen.

Also, I had a thought last night, but I'd probably be happy to accept some stated Sulu/Chekov or something. Maybe, I dunno, something like this:

Jim & Bones drinking in planet club-type place, random female flirting with Chekov (who is sitting with Sulu) in the background. Jim notices and tells Bones that if said female doesn't stop flirting with Chekov soon Sulu will deck her, they argue for a few minutes about their relationship, then Jim asks Spock's opinion (he has been dragged here by Uhura who wants to dance). Spock says they are definitely in an intimate arrangement, but if the normal pattern holds true Sulu will challenge random female to a fencing match because that's what he's done every other time since Chekov enjoys watching Sulu fence and he knows this as he tends to hang around Spocks fencing lessons. Bones then notices Uhura gesturing Spock onto the dance floor and Spock informs Bones that he will pretend he didn't see it because he doesn't enjoy dancing. Jim teases Spock about experiencing an emotional response and Spock tells him that Yes, he does experience the emotional reaction of dislike towards the activity & Jim drags him out to change his mind. The next day we see Sulu gloating and random female with a few obvious welts.

Completely random idea typed up in 5 minutes, but it would show that being gay isn't actually a problem and we get an easily slashed bonding moment between Jim and Spock.

@ Lyrical Rex, I'm not actually sure I can agree with you about Uhura being Spock's emotional anchor. I dont remember any scenes that I interpreted as comforting, even when she jumped him in the elevator, I thought it was more about lust than comfort, I didn't actually mind it though until I started reading fanfic a few days later and found out that Vulcan's are touch telepathic. I honestly think that a hug and maybe a chaste kiss would have been more appropriate at that point than trying to bombard a telepath with so much lust he couldn't think straight. That's just my opinion though.

7/1/2009 #90
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