Disscussions of the Master
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There is religious references in the cannon, the most famous the flower speech.

But it is ok in your oppinion to put religious references in your fanfiction?

And how did Watson feel about religion? Living with Sherlock Holmes, did he drag him to church, go alone by himself, or just not go? How did he think of God? A Savior, or something from childhood that's going to be there forever, something in the world to acknowlage and move on?

Is it possible Holmes underwent a conversion during his Hiatus?

Did Watson go through a time of religious trial after Holmes and Mary's death?

What religion was Watson's?

What religion was Holmes's?

8/24/2008 #1

Sheesh, AA, one question at a time! :)

Don't quote me seriously on this, because it's come off the top of my head; I might change my mind after studying the Canon more in depth, but for now this is my basic opinion:

1. Of course it's ok to put religious references in your stories - the definition of fanfiction decrees that anything and everything goes. Granted, it may end up OoC but it's perfectly acceptable.

2. Personally, I doubt that either of them went to church regularly - probably only when they were in rural surroundings and everyone in the village did, on occasions like Christmas Eve. Mentioning God and religion in public writing and everyday speech was fairly common in those days and didn't necessarily denote acceptance of the Christian faith in doing so.

3. I've heard it said that it's possible Holmes was 'converted' during the Hiatus - certainly, there's a shift in his focus post-Hiatus from himself and his own fame to helping others, and he's definitely a bit warmer than he was before Reichenbach. Other than that, there's no Canonical evidence to suggest conversion, however, at least not to the Christian faith. People have made a strong argument for Buddhism, based upon the Tibet connection and so on, but there's no real evidence.

4. I see Watson as the traditional type of Englishman - if anything, Anglican (Church of England) in all probability, just because he strikes me as a character of traditional ideals. Probably your average non-church-going Englishman. Spiritual trial after Mary's death, I can't say - I rather think he turned to writing rather than to a religion for therapy in grief.

5. Watson, as I said, I see as Anglican just because of his traditional English gentleman character. But there's no evidence to prove or disprove that.

6. Holmes...who knows, but probably either very basic Anglican (in name only, due to tradition) or, as some think, converted to some kind of Eastern religion. I doubt that he seriously thought about the matter regularly, only in moments like the rose bit and the end of BOSC, acknowledging a Higher Power simply on the scientific evidence that there must be One.

Again, just a sporadic answer, don't quote me as finalising an opinion just yet. :)

8/24/2008 #2

*randomly appears* hello!

i agree with KCS. i bleieve both gentlemen acknowledged a Higher Power, but likely not anything more than that. however, i am constantly throwing Christian references into my fics; being a Christian, i can't really help it ;-) and i want to.

8/24/2008 #3

Sorry for inundating you with all the questions. xD

I just wonder these things some times...

But for conversion, I wasn't talking about to Christianity. I was thinking that maybe he adopted certain ideals from Tibet, though probably not any gods.

I never saw him going to church, not even as a small child. In my mind I can see him bored and kicking the seats. xD

8/24/2008 #4

lol..i had a feeling you meant buddhism or something eastern AA. but you fell into a nest of Christians with these forums. so expect that kind of response ;-)

and...yeah, i can see him kicking the seats too. and probably getting a disapproving glare from his older brother as a result XD

8/24/2008 #5

I'm Christian too, so I'm not disaproving of it popping up. xD

I can also see him whispering to his brother as the logically impossible things in the preacher's sermon. 8D

8/24/2008 #6

Pretty much I agree with KCS. :)

And also bcb, in the fact that I do tend to throw in Christian tones, being a Christian myself...xD

8/25/2008 #7

I think it would be facinating to see someone write with Buhddist or Jewish overtones. 8)

8/25/2008 #8

i'm sure buddhist has been done somewhere.

if you want jewish, talk to smallrose. she'd likely oblige.

8/25/2008 #9

In this day and ange, everything's been done. XD

Really? Cool. :)

8/25/2008 #10


* wacks non-checking self xS *

8/25/2008 #11


*falls asleep*

8/25/2008 #12

'Night then! :P

8/25/2008 #13

I'm going to agree with the consensus that the Baker Street boys weren't church-goers. And that Watson was probably brought up Anglican. Of course, going to chapel was mandated by most schools at the time, and even into the 20th century.

I've heard the argument that Holmes was a lapsed Catholic, having French on his mother's side and because of the way he cited a Bible passage in CROOKED MAN. Personally I don't either of these are good arguments. For one, French ancestry does not a Catholic make. For another, the stories were "edited" ;) by lapsed Catholic so of course Doyle'd put his own spin on things.

We never get Watson's opinion of religion really. The three passages that spring to mind concerning Holmes are his speech in NAVAL about "much to hope for from the flowers"; his agonized "poor, helpless worms" in BOSCOMBE; and the "What is the meaning of it, Watson?" speech at the end of CARDBOARD. Although that may be more philosophy than religion.

9/25/2008 #14
Mac an bhaird


Towards the end of His Last Bow there is mention in one tale of Holmes saying he was on his way to 'chapel' before he met an old friend. Most people in the uk make the distinction between chapel as a catholic place of worship and church as the protestant place of worship. It's obscure but i hope it's of use to you.

Mac an bhaird.

2/10/2010 #15
Falco aesalon

I do remember him saying at the end of His Last Bow "It is God's own wind none the less..." so he probably believed in God and he did imply that he should have known the Bible well in The Crooked Man.

I think the idea of a young Sherlock kicking the pews is hilarious. I probably did something like that when my family would go to church every Christmas Eve. At my dad's request, we had to go somewhere where they light candles at the end and sing Silent Night or something. In contrast to the church my mom took me to regularly, it was extremely boring. That was the first time I tried wine by accident, I was old enough to do communion and I accidentally picked up wine instead of grape juice, and I think you can guess the rest.

6/14/2010 #16

That would make an interesting story. :)

6/14/2010 #17
Falco aesalon

Now I think about it, that would be really funny. The Holmes family attends the christmas Eve service. Sherlock is old enough to take part in communion (did they do that in Anglican churches? I'll have to find out) and gets a taste of wine. Or maybe he has a bored moment, kicks the pews, and gets in serious trouble.

But I'm not sure what I think of his family backround. I can't decide if I like them being abusive or eccentric. Like, so eccentric that he won't talk about them because they're so embarrassing. Two good reasons for him not to talk about his family much. Except the occaisional sane family member like Mycroft. And does anyone think Sherrinford Holmes exixts? It seems likely to me. Sorry, I'm getting off topic.

6/14/2010 #18

I like the stern more verbal abusive background then extreme abuse, but I also like there to be eccentrics in there too.

6/14/2010 #19
Falco aesalon

The reason I can't decide is that I've read two different people's ideas, both were really good. I read The Case of the Headmaster's Terrier by Eyebrows2 where his mother is abusive and Westron Wynde's fics where his family is extremely eccentric in a hilarious way. I'm sure about just verbally abusive because that wouldn't give him much reason to not talk about them. Maybe his origins were so scandalous that Watson couldn't publish them. I wodner if it's a good thing ACD left so much space for speculation or not.

6/14/2010 #20

I guess we will never know...

I was thinking about it some more and I decided that I like the eccentric option.

6/16/2010 #21
Falco aesalon

I guess my preferences depend whether in the mood for hurt/comfort or humor. Meh, I'm so wishy-washy.

6/16/2010 #22

I'm trying to write something about five year old Sherlock at church on Christmas with his family right now because of this conversation. :) I think anyone who had to sit in the big service when they were four or five can relate to something like that.

6/17/2010 #23
Falco aesalon

Haha I certainly could!

6/17/2010 #24

I know I can. :) My parents always used to give me paper and a pencil to draw when I had to sit in the big service. :) I am putting that into the ficlet. :)

6/17/2010 #25
Falco aesalon

I would have done that except that there weren't any pencils or anything so I had to sit through the whole thing.

6/17/2010 #26

Ah. I like sitting in the big service now that I am older though. :)

6/17/2010 #27
Falco aesalon

Yes, it's much more entertaining than running after 4 year olds when helping out with the child care. such as ones that pick your friend's nose. And especially ones that attempt to run you over with toy shopping carts. True stories, both of them.

6/17/2010 #28

Yeah agreed. :) I like going to the teen Sunday school class though. :)

6/17/2010 #29
Falco aesalon

My church doesn't have one. :( There is a youth group though. We've taped people to the wall, made some people eat something gross, and once the youth pastor brought a cow tongue. He said he was going to bring two and have an eating contest with it, though I don't know if he was joking or not.

6/17/2010 #30
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