Cats Relations
A place to vent about who you think is related to who, why, and who you would like to see in a story together.
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Fantasia-the-Crazy

Ya! Pro-Misto/Vicky fans UNITE!!! . . . Hehe.

I also hate Misto/Deme. As far as I'm concerned, she's waaay too old for him; he is practically a kitten. But then again, my views on this one might just be shrouded on account of the fact that I view Demeter as Misto's mother (Macavity being the father). I dunno.

Hm, did I touch on the Misto/Cass pairing earlier in this topic? Oh, well, I'll say it even if I did: I HATE THAT PAIRING.

12/24/2009 #31
Insanemistosingsmore

well my views are summed up in one word...COMPLICATED. so OLd Deuteronomy has "numerous progeny," right. so it spans over many generatins. some obscure clause of Jellicle Law makes it so Munkustrap will take over. the gen before Munk and Tug have Grikspittle (OC, i think. the name is too good to be mine!), Bustopher Jones, and Macavity. (grik looks like a skinny, scruffy BJ. the scruffy because of his way of life, the skinny because BJ got all teh money, Mac all the high scale talent. Grik has minor magical abilities) Grik had a 'thing' with a house cat, producing Misto. she died in a fire, he had abandoned them @ Misto's birth. so Misto wandered the streets, his eyes barely open. He gets taken in, first by Mac, who is later forced to abandon him, despite, or perhaps because of true fatherly feelings. Later, he stumbles upon the Junkyard. seeing the similarities, OLd Deut sticks poor Misto with his other Uncle of that generation, BJ. Munkustrap is about one (cat)year older that Misto at this point. Misto lives with his uncle for a few (human) years, making it evident to him, and maybe Tugger, that BJ is a child abuser. (don't ask, im crazy). after the tribe finds out, AKA, life threatening claw marks from Uncle BJ, Munk decides to take matters into his own paws, and hass Misto stay with him and Deme. Misto is an older kit at this point, and Munku a young adult.

12/26/2009 #32
Insanemistosingsmore

as for the Misto/Cass, it would work if Quaxo (his alter-ego) was older. Quaxo is to young for her, and Mistoffellees is too much of a showman. His business brings him here and there and everywhere, and that is not what Cass would want, whe would want someone she could get the stereotypical american dream with. In otherwords, she wants a Miniature (in more than one sence) Bustopher Jones. MOney Power Class, what more could Cassandra want in a tom (except perhaps restraint in matters of food!)

12/26/2009 #33
The-Napoleon-Of-Crime

In my opinion: I'm am Macavity/Bombalurina 100% Misto/Victoria I always thought to be possibly mates or they like each other. I'm more Tugger/Cass than Misto/Cass, I don't think Misto is right for her ;) Teazer/Jerrie as siblings.

12/30/2009 #34
Fantasia-the-Crazy

I agree with everything you said. I do very much like Macavity/Bomba, though I don't think it's really on a mates level. More like, the sassy, flirtatious young queen and the shifty, not-so-protagonistic (but admittedly rather sexy) tom. I could easily see them having some sort of secret affair, but I'd say their relationship is more flirtatious and lustful than romantic.

Misto/Vicky -- YES. There's really not much else to be said on this one. Just the way they dance together and their interactions towards each other to me point towards MATES. Some people interpret those as more brother/sister behavior, but come on, just look at the look on his face during the Invitation. I don't have a brother, but if I did, I certainly wouldn't want him touching me like that, much less would I want him to have an expression like that about it. It would most likely result in a series of painful slaps across the face.

Misto/Cass -- NO. I have no idea why, but for some reason I can never bring myself to ship Cassandra with a tom; she just doesn't look good with any of them. I guess Admetus/Cassandra could work, but I dunno. Anyway, I DO NOT think she looks good AT ALL with Misto. She just . . . doesn't. His image is more the shy, aloof prestidigitator, but with some tendencies towards being a bit of a trickster who likes to goof around. (But this is sort of tapping into where I draw the line between Misto and Quaxo, which belongs in a different topic.) Her image is more mysterious and . . . lurkish. (Sorry, couldn't think of any better word. Don't eat me!) Cassy is also, in my opinion, a woman of class and high society, and I don't see her stooping to the level of a simple magician. (Um, that was not intended to be a remark about the height difference, although I guess that plays into it too.)

Tugger/Cass -- Okay, this one I'm not so hot on, though I do much prefer it to Misto/Cass. I know I said I like her with Macavity, but in my mind the tom best suited for Bomba is Tugger. The way I see it, they both have small crushes on each other, and act upon them by letting their naturally flirtatious mindsets take over. However, as with Mac/Bomba, I don't see these two getting serious.

Teazer/Jerrie as siblings -- Yes!!! Thank you!!! I'm so glad someone agrees with me. In my mind, it really depends on the version, though: in the video, they look very much alike, and appearance is a big part of this one. If they're more similar in appearance, people will be more likely to believe they are siblings. But I've often heard reports of going to see a national tour, and from what I can tell, Teazer and Jerrie rarely look hardly anything alike in those versions. And since the video is kind of the universal, definitive version, I think it makes the most sense to see them the way they're portrayed in it.

Ahh! That felt good. I'm done rambling now; hope I didn't scare anyone away.

12/31/2009 #35
The-Napoleon-Of-Crime

When I write for CATS I always write for Mac/Bomba it's like my secret obsession :) (Okay, not so secret anymore) I don't see Mac as capable of being a Mate to someone, I think he's more a lone-wolf kinda guy, I see Bomba/Mac as more of a secret affair, that I think is still going on. In the movie, she is just tooooo seductive in 'Macavity'. Ahh I love them.

I always though Macavity was the father of Misto, because of their magical abilities. But Misto's face when he is dancing with Vicky is just priceless, there is no way they could be siblings. Otherwise, it would be i***. However that brings up a very different pairing...

I'm much more Tugger/Bomba than Tugger/Cass, I just don't think Misto/Cass could possibly work, and anyway Misto is taken by Vicky. I don't usually think of Cass with a mate either, she seems uninterested. But Tugger/Bomba could work, and I think they secretly like each other.

In the movie, Teazer and Jerrie are very similar in looks which first made me think they were siblings. But when they dance and sing together I feel their relationship is more brotherly and sisterly than anything else. They still rock, though!

I also forgot to mention I like Deme/Munku as mates. Macavity/Deme when they were younger and he r*** her, became evil, obsessesion, love, hate so on, so on. But because I'm PRO Mac/Bomba, I think Macavity only attempted to kitnap Deme was to get back at Bomba for possibly leaving him or maybe just to get Bomba's attension if they are together, secretly of course.

But Deme/Munku are just to cute together =) And are the parents of Jem, in my mind anyway.

*sighs happily*

1/1/2010 #36
Fantasia-the-Crazy

Yes. Just yes. I view EVERYTHING the exact same way you just said. It's not often that I find someone who totally agrees with me like that!

And Munku/Deme -- oh, I just LOVE those two together! I think they're absolutely perfect for each other, end of sentence. He's the brave and strong, but at the same time loving and compassionate, silver knight in shining armor, and she's the skittish and withdrawn golden lady who's afraid of what's out there and wants someone by her side to love and protect her. It's a match made in Heaviside. And those two as the parents of Jemima: that's what I think too. EXCEPT when I'm doing anything with Misto/Jemima, in which case I make her the daughter of Skimble and Jenny. This is because I believe Demeter, as I think I probably said earlier, is Misto's mother, Macavity being the father because he r*** her, yadda yadda yadda. And that would make Misto and Jemima half-brother and half-sister, and I know they're cats and all, but the idea of i*** has just never sat well with me. (Normally I AM pro Misto/Vicky, as I said, but I have a couple Misto/Jemima fics out there. I love writing about Misto because he's so flexible with queens!)

1/2/2010 #37
Insanemistosingsmore

ME TOO. again so long as said queenis not ages older than him. which is why i despise misto/cass, misto/deme, and any others of the type. oh and misto/tugger. The cat is old enough to be misto's DAD.

1/3/2010 #38
Fantasia-the-Crazy

I despise Misto/Tugger too, but not because of age. I don't think of the age difference between those two as being incredibly huge, actually. I could rant about the reasons I hate it, but it might get ugly . . .

1/6/2010 #39
Insanemistosingsmore

RANT RANT RANT RANT RANT.... becomes a one-person angry mob! i would love to hear your reasons. Mostly I think of it because if they are paired, they lose all sense of in-character-ness! TUGGER IS NOT A MOMMA, AND MISTO IS NOT A GIRLY BOY!

1/9/2010 #40
Fantasia-the-Crazy

[DELETED RANT]

I'm sorry . . . it was a foolish thing to write. I now know things I didn't know before, and have seen viewpoints I didn't know existed. I still don't like the pairing, but now I know that there are good, legitimate reasons for it to exist. Looking back, I realize that none of my arguments make sense . . . my apologies to those of you who wasted your time reading it . . .

Regards,

~Fantasia

1/9/2010 . Edited 9/3/2010 #41
svadaynavilfari

Whoa, calm down, kids! DD:

I'm not really into CATS anymore, but I feel like joining in the debate:

Ok so first of all, I'm open to slash/femmeslash. I've been in fandoms like Kingdom Hearts and Final Fantasy where it's basically rubbed in your face, so I'm pretty used to it. I liked the CATS fandom because a lot of people were more mature and rational writers.

Fantasia, your rant makes lots of sense, although I might point out that a lot of pairings you mentioned were never done, I've most definitely seen done :P

I think that there is pretty much NO evidence to support Tugger/Quaxo. Maybe if you squint and ignore everything else. But I also think that ANY pairing can be pulled off by a talented writer. As long as they're kept in character and the story preferably has a plot other than 'Person A meets Person B and they fall in love', I have no problem with it.

There are also other ways you can pull off pairings that you wouldn't normally think would work. It's all in the style, talent, and experience of the writer. I've said it before - if you don't have the skill to develop a relatiohnship between two characters, stick to canon.

1/9/2010 #42
Fantasia-the-Crazy

Sorry . . .

Ah, I wasn't aware that some of those pairings actually happen (I mean, I have seen Misto/Munku before). My apologies.

And I'm sorry to hear that you're not into CATS anymore. :(

1/10/2010 #43
kumiya

@Fantasia...

lol! Awesome rant! I could feel the Angry resonating through the computer screen. However, I have to say that from my POV, your argument that there is no evidence for Tugger/Misto is .... unconvincing. I mean no disrespect when I say this stuff, as I know you didn't either. I merely want to forward an interesting conversation. Oh yeah, I suppose I come from a Tugger/Misto bias. I don't necessarily see them together, but I like to read them. What can I say, they're fun! :)

The main question is: WHAT IS ROMANCE? and, consequently, what is platonic? How do we find evidence for each?

Everyone here is writing about how we come up with our own ideas of who's with who and why, and so everything here is incredibly subjective. However, I also want to say that what we come up with as "EVIDENCE" for a pairing is also subjective. It is not only our interpretations of "evidence," but the claiming of something as evidence in itself.

The claim that Munk and Deme are mates, and that there is canonical evidence to support this, is subjective. Surely the nuzzle in the light in the video happened. However, what makes us think that nuzzling between two characters to be evidence of romantic desire? I think it comes from the idealization of heterosexuality.

There's a lot of Jem/Misto out there, but why is this not questioned when Tugger/Misto is? When two people do buddy-buddy things we are taught to think they are together if they are of opposite sex. If they are of the same sex, we often believe that they are simply friends. We often think of Bomb and Dem as sisters, despite the fact that they do a very sultry dance together. Bombalurina spends more time with Dem than Munk does. What if Bombalurina was the one who nuzzled Demeter? I think a lot of people would interpret that as sisterly affection. AKA, we are trained to see opposite sex as room for romance, and same sex as merely platonic. This influences what we claim as evidence for a pairing.

Second... what does romance, or more importantly, LOVE, look like? Love appears in different forms. A gesture of love from one pairing (nuzzling), might be different from another pairing (vouching for someone). Not all people are touchy-feely. What about all the productions where Tugger kisses Misto during the RTT number? Can this be taken as a gesture of desire? I feel many people could still take this moment as evidence that Tugger likes to annoy Misto. However, how come the Munk/Dem nuzzle in the light is invariably taken by people as love? Why do we take some things as evidence of romance versus evidence of friendship? If we really want to see the characters in new ways, I think that people should question HOW we have come to the pairings that we have arrived at.

The prior claims to romance, and what makes a canonical pairing, I feel are very based on very idealized and narrow images of fluffy romance, where who's-with-who is based on what love behaviors are most visible... and what is most attractive to the actual viewer/writer. When we watch CATS and scream over how awesome it is, we come from certain biases. We see what we want to see. If we like Misto/Vicki, we will look for Misto/Vicki and we will see Misto/Vicki. Same thing for everything else.

I also feel that Tugger's character is not designed as a ladies man or a playboy. I think that he is a hypersexual idol who attracts ladies on the basis his oozing masculinity. Whether he reciprocates the ladies' attention is another story entirely (he only wants what he can't have). By saying that Tugger is a (play)boy who should be attracted to a girly (queen/tom) is saying that love only happens in a masculine/feminine dynamic.

In total, evidence is warped. To claim that there is no evidence for Tugger/Misto is to disavow evidence for everything else. To claim that pairings must be based on visible canon evidence is also to limit creative liscence, which is sorta what fanfiction is really all about!

And by the way... the idea that T.S. Eliot is churning in his grave over Tugger/Misto might not actually be happening. In fact, he might even be celebrating! A lot of Eliot scholars think that he was a closeted gay. Not to mention, there are extreme homoerotic tones in his other works.

1/10/2010 . Edited 1/10/2010 #44
kumiya

Oh yeah! I also have to say that, on the subject of pairings... I don't think anyone's really with anyone else. I think the Jellicles are a huge, gigantic, mushpot of cats where anyone can end up with anyone(s) else. Sure, some cats seem to have stronger seeming relationship with a particular cat, but that does not disavow a potential relationship with another cat. I feel that as long as someone writes well, anything is possible!

We all have our likes and dislikes. I suppose I happen to like Tugger/Misto because I like Tugger and Misto. I guess I don't like reading fics that center solely on Munk/Dem romance because I don't like fluffy romance, but Munk/Dem in itself is okay! The thing is, in my POV these pairings exist only in fics. I don't believe that the show in itself was designed with pairings in mind.

1/10/2010 . Edited 1/10/2010 #45
Insanemistosingsmore

Fantasia., thank you. hearing this rant has made my day. And i kind of have the age issue developed to a science. Misto is a young cat, barely out of kittenhood, the equivelant of our teenagers. Tugger, however, is more of a young adult, probably about 25 years of (our) age. Anyone else see a problem with that? Oh, And I was kind of exagerating when I said in an earlier post that Tugger was old enough to be Misto's dad, but if you look at the evidence of at least the video, it seems to concurr with this.

OMG! MISTO KISSES TUGGER IN ONE VERSION? WHY DID I NOT KNOW THIS?

1/11/2010 #46
Insanemistosingsmore

first of all, strike that, reverse it.

second of all, I kind of think that tugger is umm....bi. just an unsupported opinion, so please don't rant at me on that.

1/11/2010 #47
svadaynavilfari

@insanemistosingsmore

There are several productions where, after Quaxo sings about him being a bore, Tugger kisses him~

And I also happen to think that while Tugger prefers ladies, he would most likely pride himself on being able to seduce anyone, haha.

1/11/2010 #48
Fantasia-the-Crazy

Okay . . . health-critic, I did not know that. And . . . by "that" I mean pretty much everything you said. XP See, when I'm trying to prove a point I have sort of a habit of trying to pull reasons that I think are suitable out of basically nowhere, and when you read into it, my arguments usually have little to no supporting evidence. And I guess that's further worsened by the fact that I exaggerate quite a bit. And also, I guess I'm not really one to talk (well, okay, rant) here because the only version of CATS I really know is the video, and I tend to think of that as the universal version. (Oh, wait a minute . . . no pun intended, I swear!) My obsession is still young, really, and I'm learning new stuff all the time. The bit about Tugger kissing Misto, for instance -- I had no idea. You do bring up some good points, though, health-critic, and I must say you've given me something to think about. *Sigh* Now that I've cooled down I can realize these things; at the moment I kind of feel like slapping myself and yelling "What was I thinking?!"

Once again, my apologies. All is forgiven, I hope?

1/11/2010 #49
kumiya

Fantasia, you have absolutely nothing to apologize for. :) I like it when people say the things on their minds, because chatting is fun. Actually, I apologize if I sound like I'm elitist or out-of-this-world. That tends to happen. I'm also happy that you are considering my points, and I can agree how a lot of Misto/Tugger is not so amusing. Either way, all venting/ranting--regardless if we agree with the points-- should be welcome because it drives the fandom forward and gives us all great entertainment!

@insanemisto... lol. I don't think you're alone when you say Tugger might be bi. Personally, I think of Tugger in sort of the same way, a real free-for-all guy. I also think Tugger and a different character from a Webber musical, Electra the bisexual engine, are constructed in the same way. It's worth noting that John Partridge has played both roles.

1/12/2010 #50
Insanemistosingsmore

thank you.... finally someone who appreciates my theory of Tugger's bisexuality! and also thank you for the info. Is it also interesting to note that both John Partridge and Jacob Brent are gay? NOT THAT IT REFLECTS ON MISTO! I hold on to that hope for the day that I really do turn into a Jellicle and mate with the magical Mr. Mistoffellees.

1/12/2010 #51
Fantasia-the-Crazy

Thanks, health-critic. :) That, I actually DID know -- the whole Tugger/Electra/John Partridge thing.

Singsmore -- I knew that too. And just for the record, Timothy Scott was gay too. But I agree, IT DOES NOT REFLECT ON MISTO!!!!! Hehe, whoops, there's the fanqueen in me coming out. ^^ (Not like one look at my avatar wouldn't be enough to confirm that . . .) Oh, btw, if I ever turn into a Jellicle too, you'll have to get him away from me first!!! *Grabs Misto and runs like the wind!!!!!!!* lol, just kidding. If all the fanqueens in the world were really Jellicles, there would be a loooooooooooooot of competition going on for him, not just between you and me! :D

1/12/2010 . Edited 1/12/2010 #52
Nik-Nokkers Anonymous

I think Misto/Quaxo and Victoria are mates. I don't relly liek Plato Victoria. I think Plato would be more suted to Electra.

1/19/2010 #53
SummerRose12

THANK YOU!

1/24/2010 #54
Insanemistosingsmore

um....anyone noticing that pretty much everyone here who is fawning over Misto is in one of the rpgs i am active on?

1/31/2010 #55
Queen Cherry Fairy

With all do respect, this analysis is completely erronious, as is most of the replies. In the play, Victoria is a kitten. A kitten. Plato is a teenager and Mr. Mistoffeles is an adult. There was no mating or "moments" involving Victoria because she was simply too young. One could argue which cat she would most likely be romantically involved with during her adulthood, but it's completely false to think that she encountered romance within the time span that the Jellice Ball took place.

Now, for the "mating dance". It was not a mating dance. Just because one thinks that something looks suggestive does not always mean that it was meant to be sexual. That scene was simply Plato (the teenager) dancing a Pas de Deux with one of the younger Jellices. If there's any love involved, it's the sort of love between an older brother and a younger sister. The fans are just reading the entire scene wrong.

My point: It's pointless to argue about who Victoria's mate is in the play, because she was only a kitten and not sexually mature enough for a mate. If you're going to write a romantic fanfiction which involves Victoria, then please set it sometime in the future to avoid unintentional p***. That is all.

3/27/2010 #56
kumiya

Hhmm… Very interesting points! I have to say that I agree with some of them, but certainly not with others…

I definitely agree that just because something is sexual, it doesn't mean that love is happening. Sex and love are two different things, and not necessarily associated. Also, sometimes it is difficult to imagine young people/kittens being in love because we often equate youth with immaturity, and that love is supposed to be a mature thing.

At the same time… if the Pas de Deux is simply a dance, why is it that Victoria specifically takes part in it, and why does it look as suggestive as it does? Let's remember that the color white is often a symbol of virginity, and that something as official-looking as a spotlighted dance is probably a rite of passage… er, sexual passage. I definitely will argue that the Pas de Deux is very sexual, and that CATS as a musical is incredibly sexual. Look at all the b***-stroking, hip-grinding, butt-wiggling choreography, not to mention the costumes. I think CATS was very influenced by the sexual revolution, and I think ALW mentions that he was influenced by Hot Gossip, which is, well… sassy. In literature, cats are often highly sexualized (and feminized) creatures. Plus, just because many perceive Victoria as young or a kitten doesn't mean she's incapable of romance, or that she doesn't have a sexuality. I think that much of your argument subsists on old tropes that children do not have a sexuality… which I have to argue is not necessarily true at all. The idea that children have no sexuality is an ideology born from the Victorian era, a time in which people were very invested in repressing and controlling sexuality for "the good of society." These were ideals that did not necessarily reflect the actual nature of the people.

3/27/2010 #57
TheTimelordTourist

We have to take into account these are not just actor and actresses inn skin tight unitards, They are portraying cats. Thus, they don't have to have romantic feelings.

6/3/2010 #58
SummerRose12

with all due respect, I don't think that's ideally the point. I think most of what we look for in the actors are the emotions within the shows and trying to figure out who is with who while excluding more accurate feline characteristics and paying attention to how the choreography and acting was put together. And Andrew Lloyd Webber's vision was to combine both human and feline attributes in the show. That's how most cats fans, I believe, have been able to come up with most of what we think are the pairings.

6/3/2010 #59
DontBeAZombie

Okk first id like for all Victoria/Misto fans to think about this, What are the 3 pairings of cats that are seen together most often in the DVD?

Coricopat and Tantomile, Mongojerrie and Rumpleteazer And Finnaly Victoria and Mistoffelees, know what they all have in common? each pair are SIBLINGS. thats right, blood related, parent shareing siblings. if you do not see both Tanto/Cori or Mongo/Rumple as mates then you have no reasson to belive Misto/Victoria are mates since those two dident even mate together.

I find this couple to be illogical and a first come first serve scenario (since Misto and Victoria were The first two Cats to really interact with each other (the Invitation to the jellicle ball) people automatically get it into their heads that they are together, even tho the only interaction that was even slightly sexual between the two (depending on how you interperate the interaction) was the leg rub, afterwards their was nothing you could claim as sexual between them(after that the fans automatically have on rose coloured glasses and saw every interaction between the two as romantic and/or sexual), and since the mating dance is in the middle of the Play the fans already decided that they like MistoxVictoria since that was their first impression, witch leads them to Dismiss the mating dance altogether (like what you did)

Also The random couples in the mating dance Example. JennyxTugger leads fans to believe it is not legitimate, what they fail to see is that Tugger was paired with Jenny to keep fans guessing, Tugger is a player and is not really with anyone(and cuz Skimble, Jennys mate was busy) if you you were clever anuff to ignore Jenny/Tugger you would relize that most of the couples do make perfect sense and even if they dident Plato and Victoria are the STARS OF THE MATEING DANCE!

"the mating dance, I believe, meant nothing." Wow, Really? you think ALW was just like "heyy lets just put two random cats in thare and make them dance sexualy" NO! hes one of the most intelligent men alive! he wouldent just get lazy during this one dance!

-Breath- ill try and keep calm, sorry I get heated when people asume ALW is a lazy idiot. anyway ill continue

Plato and Victoria interact more then they are given credit for besides during the mating. in fact they are seen together during Mistoffelees own song, (but heyy, you go ahead and ignore that, since its just easyer for you to act ignorant) Also at the ending of the movie they are seen sitting together, in the same position that Jenny/Skimble have, so Skimble/Jenny actually look like Victoria/Plato more then Viki/Misto.

"I have my very own sibling, and I can safely say we act nothing like Misto and Victoria did" Well isant that intresting? I have my own sibling to, we also dont dance around and sing. and i know a pair of Twins, they dont act at all like Coricopat and Tantomile, they also dont steal like Mongojerrie and Rumpleteazer. Know what else, I also have a little trap door in my house, but it dosent take me to a magical backwards land like Caralin either! and heyy, Late at night Museum artifacts dont come to life, Pesky movies, always showing us things that are not the norm, who would have thought.

"If they were supposed to be mates, wouldn't they have had more scenes together?" Nope, dident you notice how none of the mates were seen together very much(example: MunkuxDeme), I think this was on perpouse, ALW dident want the relationships to be clear and easy to spot, that would be boruing. "A play should give you something to think about. When I see a play and understand it the first time, then I know it can't be much good." - T.S Eliot

"Barely anyone thinks of Misto and Victoria as mates any more" I consider that a Blessing. Anyway ill stop my rant there Im sure all the fans will just shrug this off and conveniantly ignore me because they dont like it, but heyy, thanks for at least reading this far.

Iv given you alot to think about, so go crazy and give me any reassons you can to prove me wrong, this is a challange I WANT you to convince me.

9/9/2010 . Edited 9/11/2010 #60
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