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Lodylodylody

A thread to give proper appreciation for often unfairly overlooked women of wrestling...and discuss the issues that women in the business face.

2/22/2011 . Edited 7/26/2011 #1
DaveDShow
Gee, where to start?(lol) On last night's RAW, the Bella Twins got a win over Eve Torres and Gail Kim. They're not really doing anything different than they ever have, but now the fans are booing them, and I think the Bellas seem more genuine as heels. Even when they were supposed to be fan favorites, I could never really warm up to them. I can't quite put my finger on it, but there was just something very off-putting about them to me. But now, they are living proof of "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned", times two, and everything makes sense now(lol). And I like seeing Gail Kim feud with them; I think that she has been criminally underused since returning to WWE. I would love for her to show how truly formidable she can be in the ring; maybe this will go towards that.
2/22/2011 #2
Lodylodylody

I do think the Bellas work as heels much better, though I'm still miffed that they are getting such a push. I love seeing more Gail but fear she's just going to be used to enhance the Bellas. Also don't like Eve as champion at all.

Eve, Kelly Kelly and the Bellas are all getting pushed as top divas now...and I'd rate them all towards the bottom of the current roster.

It makes me sad.

2/22/2011 #3
DaveDShow
I remember Gail herself summing it up when she explained to the Bellas, "You haven't had much to do...there haven't been any guest hosts lately"...implying that that was all they were good for. :) So far, I'm okay with Eve; from what I've seen, she seems legitimately tough, and willing to learn her craft. What is it that you don't like about her as champion? Kelly Kelly is still fired in storyline, I'm pretty sure. I missed last Friday's SmackDown because I had to work that night(don't even get me started{lol}), but I was able to see the footage the week before. She might just be rehabbing, who knows? I know what you mean about Kelly and the Bellas getting top pushes--I might be inclined to make an exception in Eve's case; she seems poised to have a long, and hopefully substantive career in WWE--but near as I can tell, WWE's roster of Divas is a little thin. They've "future endeavored" so many of them: Mickie, Maria, Ashley, Jillian, Serena...all gone. The only one whose whereabouts we know, is Mickie(although I heard Maria posted some interviews on something called YouShoot--I'll try to get some more info). Anyway, I could say that WWE is just forced to work with what they have, but then I remember that they're the ones who let all those Divas go in the first place--so that doesn't work(lol). Natalya had a short run as Divas champion...why is that, I wonder? She's got the talent; she certainly should've had a more substantive run. I don't see weight issues when I look at her; I think she's in excellent condition. It might be part of a bigger angle, for all I know...
2/22/2011 #4
Lodylodylody

K2 (Kelly Kelly) was brought back at the PPV. Boo her! My problem with K2 is that she's been in the business for over 5 years and she has shown so little improvement that it's mind boggling. (She HAS shown impovement...I'll admit that...but she's still so far behind others who the WWE never uses or releases).

Eve has athletic potential, I'll grant you. Moreso than K2 or the Bellas I think...but WWE management is in love with her, appartently because she dates an MMA star...not a good reason for a push. Her inclusion into the title match and taking the belt off of Nattie was SENSELESS and stupid. Boo her! Boo, I say!

I think Eve could possibly become good championship material someday...but today isn't that day. And to torpedo Nat's much deserved championship to push Eve offends me.

2/22/2011 . Edited 2/22/2011 #5
DaveDShow
Perhaps Kelly simply got into the wrong business; she might have a career dancing, shaking it in music videos--she was in one of Timbaland's, I remember. I agree that she should have shown more improvement by now...but considering that she entered WWE through that whole embarrassing "Kelly's Expose" thing, I'm just glad she's wrestling now. Personally, I'd like to see her become more aggressive; I know closed fists are illegal, but seeing her throw a forearm smash now and then would be okay. A knee to the gut--fine. I'm not necessarily talking about turning her back on the fans, but I believe that a young wrestler has a right to try performing as both a face and a heel, to see which career path will suit him or her best in the long run. And it often looks like heels show marked improvement, so maybe she should try it, for a little while at least. I like the "Boo her!", by the way--makes me feel like London is in the audience(lol). I didn't know that Eve was dating an MMA star; I might've read it somewhere and just disregarded it. I agree, I wouldn't give her a push either, just because of that. While I don't necessarily blame Eve for being included in the match, I would've rather seen a longer championship run for Natalya. Hope it's not Bret Hart backlash, and by that I mean any hard feelings against Bret. He got to win the U.S. title one more time, and had a brief run as RAW GM, so I can't imagine that would be it, but who knows?
2/22/2011 #6
jcott3

Kelly Kelly is reportedly "Vince's favorite diva" right now, and I shudder to think that they'll give her the title this year. With the talk that she's going to do a heel turn, I envision Lay-Cool vs. Trish and Kelly and WM 27, with Kelly turning on Trish during the match. I was never a fan of Kelly's, since she exemplifies what the WWE women's division turned into: plenty of sex appeal, but no ring skills.

As for the Bella Twins, I HATE them and I am so SICK of "twin magic"!!!! They make me realize how great Lay-Cool really are (sarcasm alert). Their matches are all the same - one gets beat up, switcheroo, surprise pin, Bellas win. For their feud with Gail, I would like to see Gail try various partners against them, each time unsuccessfully - until she gets so fed up that she brings in the heavy artillery: Awesome Kong!

2/24/2011 #7
Lodylodylody

The problem with the ladies in WWE has long been that the favorites of management are NEVER favored because of wrestling ability. It's always what one or two indiviudlas find attractive...and those one or two individuals have very poor taste. :)

Sara Del Ray was brought up in another thread. No, I don't think WWE would ever have the right idea on how to use her. However there's a fairly famous story about Del Ray and TNA as well. She went to have some talks with them as they had expressed some interest. When she got there, they told her they could use her "if she could be a bit more like the Beautiful People".

She immediately thanked them for their time and left the meeting. :P

As to Kong and her impending debut in WWE. There would be many great ways to use her...but ever since the news broke that she was signed I have had a nightmare scenario in my mind.

That scenario...she will debut to feud with...

Kelly Kelly.

(shudder)

It could be worse I suppose...they could introduce her as the long lost third sister of the Bellas. Yes, I know that's ridiculous...but look at what WWE has done in the past and tell me it's not possible.

2/24/2011 . Edited 3/1/2011 #8
jcott3

The two individuals who filleted the WWE women's division and turned it into "The Divas" are John Lauranitis and Kevin Dunn (now you who to send the letter bomb to). The Diva Search was their idea, the belief being that WWE needed more sex appeal to keep male viewers. If that were true, I wouldn't have stopped watching WWE that year. Those segments were so STU-PID! And don't get me started on "Diva Dodgeball".

In the span of one year, they either fired (Jacqueline, Jazz, Nidia, Gail) or drove off (Molly, Ivory) most of the women who could wrestle, leaving only Trish, Lita and Victoria, with Trish being the only one they really cared about.

2/25/2011 #9
Lodylodylody

ODB made a surprise return on last week's Impact episode. There's another surprise return this Thursday. Sadly there's no indication anywhere if these 'surprises' are one time only deals or if it marks a return to the roster for these ladies.

On a positive note, there were reports that Eric Bischoff was 'singing the parises' of ODB after seeing her return last week. Maybe that bodes well for her.

2/28/2011 #10
jcott3

Raw got over less than an hour ago, and the Bella Twins have now officially joined my top 5 list of wrestling personalities that I ABSOLUTELY HATE and I want to DIE!

5) Cryme Tyme

4) Miss Kitty/The Kat

3) The Bella Twins (and rising)

2) Hornswoggle

1) Hulk Hogan

If one of the Bellas gets a broken nose so they can't do "Twin Magic" anymore, I would be very happy. I actuslly toyed with the idea of Gail permanently scarring one or both of them while I was writing A New Beginning.

2/28/2011 #11
Lodylodylody

The logic of a Bella winning last the title shot that way is...WRONG on every level known to humankind.

A Bella was thrown out of the ring first...this was acknowledged by all...that Bella, therefore, could not win.

The second Bella stayed in until the end with Gail. Gail eliminated her. This was seen by all. Therefore that Bella could not win.

The first Bella than runs back into the ring and eliminates Gail...winning the match? WHAT?

Even if we go with the theory that nobody can tell the two Bellas apart...it was clearly shown that BOTH Bellas were eliminated before Gail. TWIN MAGIC CANNOT WORK IN A BATTLE ROYALE!

So help me...if they have a women's match at Wrestlemania this year and it is between Eve and a Bella...I will have to kill thousands of innocents just to satisfy my rage.

Same goes with K2.

Let the ladies that are good wrestlers have the Wrestlemania spotlight!

3/1/2011 #12
Lodylodylody

The Bella twins story going around.

This comes from Colt Cabana (aka Scotty Goldman) a wrestler who worked as a trainer in FCW (the WWE's developmental territory). He trained the Bella twins.

They were discovered when auditioning for a WWE Diva search. They didn't make the cut but caught the attention of WWE officials because, of course, they were twins.

The girls were sent to FCW for training. They had no background in wrestling and were not wrestling fans, having come into the Diva search simply as a path to celebrity...but I won't hold that against them. I'd prefer it if people getting into wrestling were doing it because of a passion for the business...but I'm not going to fault someone for trying to grab any opportunity that comes their way.

What happened next however...

After being in FCW for a number of months, the Bellas wanted more. So they called the WWE talent department (I'd assume they spoke directly to talent head Johnny Ace...but there are a handful of people besides him who could have had the authority to do what was done). The Bellas explained that they wanted to be put on the main roster at once or they were both quitting.

Now...does this make the Bellas bad people? Not necessarily. One could use this incident to paint them as arrogant...or one could say their actions were daring. There's nothing wrong with trying to improve your situation after all.

The problem is...when these barely trained, unimpressive girls made this threat...THE OFFICE MET THEIR DEMANDS!

The Bellas were immediately sent to Smackdown...where Victoria...VICTORIA of all people...had to put them over. This led to the Bellas then feuding with (and beating) the team of Victoria and NATALYA...until Victoria finally left the company

The Bellas then were moved to RAW where they were featured backstage EVERY WEEK with whatever celebrity guest was on the show that night...and when they did wrestle they were constantly being put over Jillian Hall...until Jillian finally left the company.

Funny how two talented women in WWE both had to end their runs against the Bellas. (Note: I'm not implying any wrong doing on the Bella's part in regards to Victoria and Jillian leaving. Neither lady have never had any bad things to say about the Bellas as people).

See, the problem I have is not the Bella's demand to be put in the spotlight (though I do find it ridiculous that someone would think that's a good idea...to threaten to quit if you don't get a promotion). My problem is that the comapny's reaction to them CLEARLY indicates that they value the Bellas a great deal more than much of their other talent. And my questions is...WHY?

The Bellas aren't anything to write home about as in-ring talent. They haven't set the world on fire with their promo skills. They're pretty but nothing special in relation to the other lovely ladies on WWE's payroll.

The ONLY thing I can see about them that sets them apart from anyone else there is that...they're twins.

Twins.

Two models with no great talent and no background in the business are getting pushed at the expense of other much more deserving women...because they're twins.

And keep in mind all the talented, long established stars that have made much more reasonable requests of the office and been turned down. Before Molly left the company back in 2005, she asked if she could work as a face again. They sad no.

Victoria pitched mutliple ideas for storylines during her last days in the WWE...all of them were turned down.

Melina wanted to do a storyline with John Morrison recently. Request denied.

As Colt Cabana himself said when relating this story...anyone he knew, including himself, that would have called the office and said "put me on the main roster or I'm quitting" would have been fired immediately. But the Bellas?

Apparently, they're special.

So because of this, if the Bellas get a Wrestlemania spot and Natalya, Beth, Gail and Melina don't...I will be angered beyond all reason.

Or, if I may paraphrase the Great One himself (since the Rock is back on WWE television these days).

"I want you to take your 'twin magic', shine it up real nice and pretty. Then turn that sucker sideways...and SHOVE IT UP YOUR CANDYA$$!"

3/5/2011 #13
Lodylodylody

Here's an interesting idea for debate on the subject of women in wrestling.

Many, including myself, have gone on about the evils of the Diva search and 'untrained models' being favored over 'real' wrestlers.

But...

Victoria and Trish Stratus...when they entered the business, technically they did so as...(gasp) untrained models. Fitness models, yes...but still models.

The Diva search has led to the discovery of Michelle McCool and Layla. Menawhile, Velvet Sky started her career in the indys as a 'real' wrester. But of those three ladies today...who are the two best in-ring workers and who would rank in third place?

(Hint: the 3rd place finisher's name rhymes with 'Telvet Rye'. And I'm not saying she's a BAD wrestler...I'm just pointing out that her 'indy background' does not make her skill superior to McCool or Layla).

No matter how a girl gets into the business, how she's trained and how hard she works is what matters. So while the Diva search and similar concepts may be flawed on so many levels...individuals that get their start that way may be true diamonds in the rough.

Candice Michelle...hard to find anyone who fit the 'untrained model' label better than her before she began her wrestling career. But she busted her a$s to learn how to work...and broke a lot of bones doing so.

The very first Diva search winner, Christy Hemme. Absolutely HORRIBLE ring work in WWE. But when she was eventually let go by the comapny, she stayed in wrestling...went to TNA (with still limited ring skills) and kept training seriously, including getting tutored by AJ Styles. Result...real improvement. Sadly, it was all for naught as a neck injury ended up finishing her career as a wrestler and turned her into a full time backstage interviewer...but major credit should be given to her for working to become a wrestler.

So while the Diva search itself may be evil...Diva search contestants shouldn't necessarily be dismissed as hopless...until they prove themselves to be so.

3/5/2011 . Edited 3/5/2011 #14
jcott3

I think that was part of the problem. In 2004, the brass decided more sex appeal was necessary, leading to the Diva Search. Supposedly, the goal of the Diva Search was to find "the next Trish". Trish was a model, so they hired a bunch of hotties, thinking they could be trained to become wrestlers. But Trish had something they didn't - the desire to learn and constantly improve. Same with Victoria. She wanted to learn. I know she and Mandy were both expected to learn to wrestle when they signed on, but Victoria took to it like a fish to water.

On the other side of the coin, you have someone like Stacy Keibler. Stacy was super-over, beautiful, had athletic ability (from her dance background) and the list goes on - but Stacy was heavily criticized as someone who didn't care about the wrestling biz. Ivory blasted Stacy and Torrie in her shoot interview, saying they were uncooperative and unwilling to learn. I remember being at a Q&A with the Dudleys where Bubba Ray said, "She's a really nice girl, but she had no love whatsoever for the wrestling business".

Speaking of the Diva Search, can someone tell me WHY Ashley Massaro is so popular? She won the Diva Search and posed for Playboy, then what?

3/5/2011 #15
Lodylodylody

Is Ashley really so popular though? Obviously the office was behind her for a while, and pushed her down our throats despite her lack of talent. She got some fan support during her run...but when she went away to do that season on Survivor there never seemed to be anyone missing her terribly much. Her return came with little fanfare, and her release was met with widespread fan apathy as I recall.

Rumors about her personal life that I've heard are rather sad/embarrasssing. I don't think WWE or TNA have any interest in her trying a comeback.

3/6/2011 . Edited 5/5/2011 #16
jcott3

It seemed like she has a lot of fans. People on YouTube love her for some reason, calling her "best diva ever" (ahem?). She also seems to be a very popular subject of fics here. As for her personal life, I remember her no-showing an autograph show last July and then nobody had a clue where she was for days afterwards. She may have been the reason the 2005 Diva Search got written up on the WrestleCrap website.

3/6/2011 #17
Lodylodylody

Best Diva Ever? Wow...lol.

Well, what can you do? You can find vocal fans of anyone online.

3/6/2011 #18
Steele Xeno

I know. Ashley wouldn't even be in my top 30 divas of all time and before you start wondering how I got so many, let me just say that I also watch Mexican and Japanese wrestling. Now I saw some of the other posts in this forum and I would like to say that in accordance to Eve and the Bellas, they can go for all I care. However I was really starting to enjoy the McIntyre/Kelly thing they had going because it seemed like that was a way to turn Kelly heel or Drew face but maybe that's just me. Now I also read that WWE just signed Brandi Alexis Reed from Florida so we'll see if they do anything with her.

3/8/2011 #19
jcott3

Don't worry, 30 isn't that big a number. WWE did 25 - and still managed to screw it up (Vickie Guerrero makes the list, but not Victoria. Michelle McCool is in the top 10, but not Madusa). One of my YouTube friends has a list of the 50 greatest women in wrestling, but said list includes wrestlers, valet/managers and women who worked mainly on the business side.

3/9/2011 #20
Lodylodylody

No, it's easy to find 25-30 wreslting women to talk about, even if you don't go into the Mexican and Japanese side of things.

BTW - glad to have a new people show up and take part in conversation. I hope more people will find time to join in the conversation.

One thing that I think WWE has caused a problem with in women is that they treat wrestling women and non-wrestling women the same. I think there is plenty of room for women who are NOT wrestlers in the business. Managers, valets, backstage personalities...there's nothing wrong with that. That's why I don't object to Sunny being in the Hall of Fame...she was very good at being a non-wrestler. They didn't put her in the ring or give her a championship simply because she was popular.

But then you look at people like Miss Kitty (who was given the belt without possibly ever having trained in the ring at all)...well, jcott can rant about that. :)

3/9/2011 #21
jcott3

I'll be good and try not rant too much about her. Miss Kitty actually did spend some time training in Memphis. Go to YouTube and you can check out some of her matches against Bobcat and Lady Ophelia (Molly Holly).

Part of what made her so irritating is that not only could she not wrestle, but she virtually ALWAYS WON! - PLUS we had to listen to Jerry Lawler drooling all over himself and "polishing his royal scepter" during her matches. Unlike a lot of guys, I will not forgive a woman's lack of ring skills just because she looks good in a bikini or less. I used to really like Stacy Keibler, but the more I heard about her attitude backstage, the less I liked her.

There are places for women in wrestling who can't work in-ring, but they need to know that place and stay in it. I never had a problem with So-Cal Val, Miss Elizabeth or Lillian Garcia, because they knew enough to stay out of the ring.

3/9/2011 #22
IsidoraAngst

I really don't like divas nor do I like watching their matches. It's just very boring to me. I can't stand the Bella Twins. I don't think they can wrestle. Hate Maryse and Michelle McCool.

However, my favorite female wrestler is Awesome Kong. The reason why I love her so much is that she's not a diva. She's a true wrestler in my opinion. She's not thin nor is she to die for in the looks department. Her strength and skill is incomparable to the other female wrestlers. She can stand toe to toe with the male wrestlers any day of the week. She'll win some and she'll lose some.

I first saw her in TNA and feel in love with her. I heard that WWE have her under contract, but she has yet to make a debut. Because of her strength and monster-like prowess, I don't think they'll put her against any of the pretty divas. I believe that Beth Phoenix would give AK a run for her money though.

I have never seen Trish Stratus wrestle. From what I've heard, she's really good. If that is the case, I think she can stand head to head with AK as well. I will see her fight on Monday against Vickie Guerrero. Can't wait for Monday.

3/10/2011 #23
jcott3

I don't blame you for not wanting to watch them nowadays. Vince had the greatest collection of female wrestling talent ever assembled in the early 2000's. Trish, Lita, Jazz, Molly, Ivory, Jacqueline and Victoria showed that the women could hang with the guys in terms of matches - until the brass decided the show needed more sex appeal. Between the 2004 Diva Search, trying to push the sexy-but-uninterested Stacy Keibler and getting rid of women who could actually wrestle, the women's division died a painful death that year. Trish and Lita's retirements in 2006 were just the dirt being heaped on.

Awesome Kong's a good one. I like her, but my favorite Knockout for the longest time was OBD. I think WWE is holding Kong off to debut after WrestleMania some time. Given her lack of sex appeal, I shudder to think what they'll do to her. If they turn her into anything like Bertha Faye or Momma Benjamin, I will personally kill whoever is responsible. Personally, I'd love to see her beat the crap out of Jerry Lawler.

Trish was pretty good in her prime, but left WWE in 2006 because of back problems and her getting married. Trish is heavily criticized by many die-hard wrestling fans as a pretty face who needed a good opponent to spoon-feed her to a decent match. I thought Trish was pretty good, but not as good as she was made out to be. She was the most marketable woman in the company, thus she had to keep winning and continue being Women's Champion. If you want, check out some of her matches on YouTube.

Vickie is not the best person for Trish to showcase on. I'm sure the only way Mrs. Guerrero will get any offense is if someone interferes in the match (Lay-Cool, perhaps?).

3/10/2011 #24
IsidoraAngst

A fight between Jerry Lawler and Awesome Kong? That would be interesting to watch.

From what I understand about AK, her ring name will be just Kong, but I like Awesome Kong better. We'll just have to wait and see what happens. I do agree that they might showcase her after Wrestlemania. So sad to wait.

3/10/2011 #25
Lodylodylody

The thing most people don't get...there are a number of women CURRENTLY on the WWE roster that are AS CAPABLE as the women of the 'Trish era.'

The reason why this isn't apparent...WWE doesn't ALLOW the women to work as well as they could. It's not just that they aren't given enough match time...they are INSTRUCTED not to be 'too intense' because the company feels it makes them look 'unfeminine.'

This all started 3-4 years ago when Melina and McCool were feuding. They had a PPV match and when it was over and they got backstage, they were told "Dont ever do that again."

WWE decision makers are misogynistic, sexist morons.

Beth, Natalya, Gail, Melina and McCool are all top flight workers. Layla has worked her way up to get very close to their level (she may already have reached it...hard to tell for sure with the ladies not allowed to work to their full ability).

If you add Kong to that list, think of the matches that could be had...if WWE would allow it. But I still fear we're going to see Kong as the third Bella sister.

It's WWE's policy of limiting the women's work which has helped drive away great workers like Victoria and Jillian. It's why Victoria and Mickie are happy to be in TNA depsite the RIDICULOUS difference in pay. (Seriously, you would not believe what the ladies are paid in TNA). It's why Gail did NOT want to leave TNA but HAD to becuase of financial considerations.

Anyway, look up on YouTube to see some matches in Japan where Kong faced a very young Natalya. Watch when Natalya German suplexs Kong HALFWAY ACROSS THE RING! Then imagine them facing each other today with Nattie having years more experience and ring polish.

Too bad WWE might never allow that to happen.

3/10/2011 #26
Lodylodylody

Speaking of ladies. On TNA tonight we had Winter come to Velvet's aid...love how that storyline is going. Yay Winter! Is she going to win Velvet's trust only to destory her? I hope so. :)

But what I was really waiting for...Madison's surprise challenger...Roxxi! She looked great...but moreover...seeing her in thr ring with Tara standing outside the ring made me SO WANT to see those two face off. Plus we got some bonus Mickie running in at the end.

Come on TNA...give me Roxxi vs Tara. Give me Tara and Madison vs Roxxi and Mickie. Give it to me, damn it!

3/10/2011 #27
Steele Xeno
I completely agree with you Lody. The WWE has this strange fear of not having their divas seem too, intense as you put it, when in reality it's what the fans want (Or at least I think they do). I wonder why though? I mean are they afraid that someone might get offended or something? If so, then who, because most of my wrestling fan friends would kill for the divas to do something a little more intense. Although it saddens me to say that you might be right Lody and the WWE are sexist. Hopefully somebody over there can with a clear head can let those lovely ladies show what they can really do.
3/10/2011 #28
jcott3

WWE thinks the audience wants women with huge b*** and lots of sex appeal. Vince himself once said "It's easier to teach a model to wrestle than it is to teach a wrestler to model." As long as the WWE's core audience is teenage-young adult males, they will push "Divas" over women who can actually wrestle.

On a different note, I just checked out the results for RAW. This just added for WrestleMania: Dolph Ziggler and Lay-Cool against John Morrison, Trish Stratus and ... SNOOKI?! W** did that piece of garbage do to deserve a WrestleMania match? Lance Storm and Jacqueline never made it to WrestleMania. Molly Holly had to subject herself to a head shaving to get a match. But that idiot gets to waltz right in?! And you thought "Santina Marella" & Vickie Guerrero's "Hog Splash" were bad. Does Vince really think Snooki is going to convince people to watch the show?

3/14/2011 #29
SilverTurtle

I don't know. I'd watch just to see Snooki get the crap beaten out of her. Though I doubt that's how it'll play out, a lady can dream. And right now my fondest dream consists of Snooki getting turned into paste in the middle of a wrestling ring. I am incredibly disappointed that THIS was what Vince chose to do, though. He's got REAL talent on his rosters and he brings in...Snooki? Like, what even dude? What even are you thinking?

It might be easier to teach a model to wrestle than it is to teach a wrestler to model, but you'd have damn better matches if you were training the wrestlers. We don't want modeling. We want wrestling. It's why we watch these shows in the first place. I'd much rather see wrestling talent than the standing around hair-flipping talent the models display (that is their only skill so far as I can see).

3/14/2011 #30
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