The Mechanics of In Flight
One of my reviewers mentioned the idea of starting a forum for those who want to debate various points of my story without clogging up the review section too much. I decided to go ahead and give it a try.
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Kumoatsu

I am making a Guessing page following the theme of TVTropes. We are here to guess what could happen further on in the story. Also we could guess as to what would happen in different situations that might crop up such as what would happen if Shirou implanted one of his circuits into Akitsu. Would it over ride Akitsu's Scrap Number status? Would it just make her his familiar?

3/17/2011 #1
Vindictus

Hmm. I'd say she'd become a familiar.

As a side note, how does becoming a scrapped number work? Getting winged is analogous to falling in love/finding a mate. So, does that mean that Akitsu isn't capable of feeling love... Or that she's secretly a narcissist?

3/17/2011 #2
Vindictus

Hmm. I'd say she'd become a familiar.

As a side note, how does becoming a scrapped number work? Getting winged is analogous to falling in love/finding a mate. So, does that mean that Akitsu isn't capable of feeling love... Or that she's secretly a narcissist?

3/17/2011 #3
alguLoD

@Kumoatsu: By the rules of the Nasuverse, it's impossible to implant one's circuits into another person. It's something the anime made up, and GB is quite obviously following the VN. This is all highlighted in Heaven's Feel when Shirou gets Archers arm stuck onto him, and it's noted that the magical circuits in the arm and the rest of Shirou's body should reject one another even assuming that the arm and Shirou were a perfect match biologically speaking. If Shirou stuck one of his circuits into Akitsu, then, well, I guess we'll have to say farewell to Akitsu. And Shirou, once Tohsaka hears of it.

On my own WMG note; as I speculated in the chapter 17 thread, it might be that Archer's armor was made of an alloy discovered in the Sekirei's crashed ship. I'm not really basing this on anything except "it's vaguely possible", but really, we would all love to see Shirou seriously freak the Hell out when Takami brings him a "bulletproof vest".

3/18/2011 #4
Kumoatsu

Odd that you would say that considering how family crests work, how the creation of familiars work, etc. Rolls eyes. I am using the wiki, it only says that the tradition way is to use a dead creature.

3/18/2011 #5
Shadow Rave

I've seen nothing that says transferring a circuit is impossible. However I don't think it's something Shirou is capable of on his own.

3/18/2011 #6
YamiheKazeto

You have to take a note, though, that magic crests are only transplantable to select few people with blood relations, and in the case of familiar creation, you have to sacrifice a part of your body to give your familiar magic circuits (though it is possible to use something that regrows, like hair), and from what I understood, it is a tradition because modern techniques used to create familiars are too weak to be used on a living being. There is a "stronger" method, but it requires implanting a soul into something, and regardless of whether it works on living beings or not, the being it creates in never the one whose body was used, and there's absolutely no chance of Shirou knowing how to do it.

On the other hand, tantric mating rituals (or whatever name for it you prefer) shown in Fate are used to provide the female with a lot of prana, and to form a contract between two beings (providing one of them knows about it, but there is a miniscule chance that Shirou is capable of performing it) that circumvents other contacts, in a way (Rin was able to form one with Shirou despite her having already formed contract with Saber), so there is still a chance that he'll be able to do it (of course, such thing will happen off-screen). Of course Akitsu's status as a scrapped sekirei is an obstacle here because there is a rule that each sekirei can only enter one contract and being scrapped means that she had formed a contract with herself, but there is always a chance that he will either see the window of opportunity to do something meaningful for her, or that somebody will show it to him.

Have more faith in there being a positive development for her without detours like being a familiar - she is an example of an extreme woobie, and such characters almost always get their happy endings (let's forget about Satsuki for a moment), because it would be inhuman if they didn't. That being said, unless Gabriel decides to make my train of thoughts crash (which isn't bad, since I'm probably being a smart-ass right now when it comes to trying to predict the flow of story), she'll most probably be in a much better situation before chapter 25~26.

3/18/2011 #7
Kumoatsu

Maybe. Shirou has been training and researching for several years remember? He might be able to or he might not. It depends on what he looked through. We know he practiced with runes, his sword style, and his reality marble during that time.

3/18/2011 #8
Kumoatsu

Where are you getting your information from I would love to look that over for my own fic I am working on. Seriously where are you getting the one contract only from. I have gone extensively over the wiki, anime, and manga and I saw nothing like that.

3/18/2011 #9
YamiheKazeto

We know that he had been training, but I doubt Rin taught him anything like that, simply because as a magus, he is untalented.

Basically speaking, everything he knows about magic works because in a "brute force" kind of way, even his runes (we all know why he used these runes during combat, and that was not for versatility of their effects), and Rin would probably die out of despair is she had ever tried to teach him anything requiring more skill (well, that might explain why she is not here, but we know she is still alive so yeah) than just a ward.

I wouldn't call it research, but there is no doubt he knows something, though I don't think Rin had ever tried to explain to him how exactly does one create a familiar, especially seeing as they had to sustain Saber and a new familiar would make it much more difficult.

Oh, but if you want a wild guess, how about that - "after two more fights against magic practitioners and Shirou will learn that Minaka is his father, and MBI will learn about the existence of magic." I think it's pretty viable now, considering that he'll be trying to avoid enforcers, but they will have to find him eventually.

3/18/2011 #10
YamiheKazeto

"Where are you getting your information from" - basically speaking, novels, wiki, and supplemental works and authors' (rare) comments and answers to questions. And most of the time piecing said facts together - in Sekirei each can only enter one contract, and while in Fate it is possible to enter as many contracts as one desires, it requires having enough prana and seeing as Rin had to spend most of hers on Saber, she had to resort to this kind of thing to form one with Shirou. If it had been Sakura (as seen in Heaven's Feel) she would have no problem creating a contract with him because she had much more of it.

3/18/2011 #11
Kumoatsu

Okay I can understand the points you put forth but I am afraid I have to disagree with them. This anime/manga is still to new to make a guess like that with any certainty. My experience with such manga/anime shows they will have a way to change contracts and such by the time this is at an end.

For Akitsu she is in a special circumstance. Personally I see it as as her simply being far to powerful to wing anymore. Her power has grown to the point that her own energy/will or what have you is far to strong to accept someone who is not strong enough to break through that power. Think of it if she is at the next level and level 1 ashikabe are not able to affect a sekirei at level 2. I expect that eventually sekireis powers will grow to the point that they will create another crest. That scene on the bridge is where I am drawing this from. For a short moment musubi had two crest and she completely wiped out the two sekirei that she had been fighting before and losing. Just from a reader of anime that shows there is going to be some change later on.

I probably read to much shonen to get that vib but well hey I get it from this one also.

OOC: I know I know that was someone else using her body but my point stands.

3/18/2011 . Edited 3/18/2011 #12
oxybusy

@alguLoD As far as I can see it wasn't ever stated in HF that it's impossible to implant ones circuits into another person. What was stated however, is that it's normally impossible to connect parts of an heroic spirit onto a human. They would, as you said, usually reject eachother.

I am by no means an expert in nasuverse, but I for one can't find anything that supports your claim. Do you perhaps have another source?

3/18/2011 #13
oxybusy

@alguLoD As far as I can see it wasn't ever stated in HF that it's impossible to implant ones circuits into another person. What was stated however, is that it's normally impossible to connect parts of an heroic spirit onto a human. They would, as you said, usually reject eachother.

I am by no means an expert in nasuverse, but I for one can't find anything that supports your claim. Do you perhaps have another source?

3/18/2011 #14
Kumoatsu

Seconded now that I look at it. Where are you getting your info?

3/18/2011 #15
oxybusy

The visual novel ofcourse. I just checked it.

I got the VN open right now anyways, so I might as well quote all the relevant text that explains about the arm transfer.

"…But is it even possible to transplant a Servant's body onto a human's?"-Shirou

"It's possible to just connect them. Spiritual doctors are said to heal the soul and not the body. I guess this priest here is the real thing, in contrast to his looks" –Illya

"I accept your compliment, but this is nothing to celebrate. Joining two separate spiritual bodies is forbidden magic. It cannot succeed.

Spiritual bodies... resurrection and restoration of souls are divine mysteries that cannot be handled with magic. That is why I thought I only succeeded in shape, and expected him to die of shock, but---" –Kotomine

"...Shirou and Archer are a special case. I found out earlier that he would pull through if the connection was made"--Illya

Unless I am seriously misunderstanding things, I don't think circuits have anything to do with spiritual bodies, which to my believe purely hints toward heroic spirits. Thus I think it's safe to conclude that it wasn't ever stated that circuits can or can't be transfered in HF.

3/18/2011 #16
Kumoatsu

Now that I go back and look at it. Shirou would be looking up information on how to create familiars during that time after all saber is now rins familiar. He would be curious about the specifics and then go more in depths as he is shown to do in this fanfic. So it is actually probable for him to know how to do it now.

3/18/2011 #17
YamiheKazeto

Musubi is a special case because she has number 08 contained inside of her, which effectively makes her "two people", and thus allows her to, let's say, hax around a little.

Akitsu had winged herself for whatever reason, so while you might interpret it as something else, Gabriel probably won't, because he wants to create stories that use the rules that had already been set in a way that sounds plausibly, and he most probably had put a lot of mind into it.

Technically speaking it might be possible for her to get winged when it is attempted by a powerful enough "ashikabi", and that was what I was referring to with tantric ritual, but it is a purely hypothetical situation seeing as it would require applying Fate universe rules onto Sekirei rules in a certain way. While it is possible to apply them as such without making it feel stretched, it is unknown to us whether Gabriel had decided to do it or if he chose a different approach, and exact rules of Sekirei part of this story aren't explained properly because its creators put fanservice before consistency and explanations.

In other words, Fate universe says "Familiar - nah, Forceful contract - maybe", and Sekirei universe says "Everything - whatever", so it depends on interpretation, but what you had proposed with her being a familiar is rather farfetched. Of course Saber can be interpreted as one, but we have to remember that she had been created to be one, so there is a clear difference between her and sekirei.

And even if Shirou did know how to create a familiar - theoretical knowledge does not equal ability to use it, as shown in the seventeenth chapter of "In Flight".

@oxybusy: Explanations about the way magic crests work, and then explanations about why exactly is it "impossible" to give somebody from outside the family one - they are formed from magic circuits, and implanting them onto a family member is difficult, and implanting them into somebody without blood relation is said to be impossible. In case of heroic spirits and EMIYA's arm it was a different case, though the reason he was capable of using this arm and other people would not is the same - it's because of the fact that he was the same person and by extension his magic circuits didn't reject EMIYA's strongly enough for him to die.

3/18/2011 #18
Kumoatsu

Okay now your just being condescending and a troll. Claiming I haven't done my research is both rude and stupid if you knew me at all. You have not put up an arguement with this other then your experience with this type of entertainment is wrong. I have put forth an arguement that has a possibility of working. Until you actually put forth facts that say otherwise it stands on it own. Remember I pointed out that 08 was in Musubi? Yeah don't ignore parts of a quote, either take care of it as it stands or leave it alone.

3/18/2011 #19
YamiheKazeto

I don't see how am I patronising myself, and it is kind of rude to assume one is a troll is such discussion. You had right to think I am one, though, since it all depends on the way we perceive each other.

Nowhere in my posts here have I actually claimed that you had not done your research. I have said that I see your proposition as farfetched, but that does not mean I am accusing you of not knowing better. People do propose various things, and I am fully aware of the fact that many things can be interpreted very differently depending on the person who is construing them. And I do not remember you having directly said that number 08 was in Musubi - you had mentioned that she has a second crest and that there was another person inside of her, but instead of saying "that's why she might be exempt from some rules" you instead noted that because of that rules might (and probably will) change.

And since you do want me to point my points and things I perceive as facts, I will do it now:

- Explanation given in Sekirei universe makes it clear that each sekirei can only form one bond, aka. get winged by one Ashikabi. As of now it stands that way, regardless of whether it changes in the future or not.

- Akitsu's status as a scrapped number comes from the fact that she had formed bond with herself, aka. winged herself, and thus is not able to get winger by any Ashikabi.

- Musubi had Yume inside of her, and thus is capable of ignoring some specific rules concerning sekirei, either once or more times (it had not been stated if she will be able to do it again).

- In Fate universe, forming a contract requires having enough prana, and because of that forming more than one contract is only possible for skilled magi; even then it often requires a special ritual, either the one we had observed in Fate/Stay Night visual novel's Unlimited Blade Works route.

- Giving someone a magic circuit is not possible in Fate universe due to the fact that they will be violently rejected, probably resulting in death of the new host.

- Shirou is not capable of creating a familiar, regardless of whether he possesses required knowledge or not, simply because he is not a magus from birth, and thus his magic circuits will not suffice for that.

- Shirou does not possess knowledge about familiar creation, because it was in no way helpful for him and Rin would not waste time trying to teach him something he would not get any use from, especially since he is rather untalented in magecraft.

- In Fate, creating a familiar by a normal magician requires to either use a dead host, or to implant a soul in the body (probably a dead one), because nowadays rituals for familiar creation are not strong enough.

- Servants are not classified as familiars at the moment of summoning, though formally are classified as ones later. That means there is no need for Shirou to study summoning a familiar, because in the case of servants summoning process is different.

- Nowhere in Fate had a magic circuit actually been inserted into anyone. The closest situation to that was the one concerning EMIYA's arm, and in this case it was made clear that risk of rejection is too great to even think about "implanting" one's own circuits into another living being. There is also an explanation about magic crests which support that (though it had been said that implanting magic crests, and by extension magic circuits, onto members of family, is possible, even if it is a difficult, lengthy, and painful process).

Considering the above points, there's not a jack of a chance that Gabriel will put something like "implanting a magic circuit" or "making Akitsu into a familiar". End of discussion on that matter, unless you want to actually defend your reasoning instead of using arguments ad hominem.

Also, no, I do not know you at all, and may I remind you that from the very beginning of your discussion you had clung to your mention of "implanting a magic circuit" even though there is an explanation in Fate that contradicts your opinion on that matter, and because of that you are backing your train of thoughts on a fallacy. I did not assume that you are a fool, but I think you should try to think about that assumption of yours again, because as of now there is nothing known that supports it, and that makes you look like a fool.

3/18/2011 #20
Kuranzyan Blightwalker

Honestly, all this bogus about making Akitsu a familiar is practically based on delusion and ignorance. Even if Shirou had the abilities to do such a thing, fact is he still would have to actually kill her in some form or another, as per the requirements for the 're-'creation. Yeah... Not going to happen. At all!

3/18/2011 #21
alguLoD

@Kuranzyan Blightwalker & YamiheKazeto: You got it, bros. Yeah, this theory has been thoroughly "busted".

3/18/2011 #22
Eveon

Hmm... it's not impossible. Though the idea of implanting a magic circuit is ridiculous. Rin and Shirou made a contract through sex (and implanting magic crest fragments temporarily) but that's probably not the best example. Len either drank Shiki's blood or had sex with him to become his familiar (then again Len was a familiar to begin with... a succubus typed thing that followed Arc around). The definition for familiar is kind of vague but some type of contract between Shirou and Akitsu is definitely possible (probably formed through some type of bodily fluid... the others apparently used saliva to get winged)

3/18/2011 #23
hanashinobi

I think the sekirei plan is some type of ritual. the instructions were most likely on the ship that the sekirei arrived on. I have no Idea what the full effects are or the true result but it may be some type of ascention ritual to turn someone (or create) a divine being. this could be what minaka means by new age of the gods.

3/18/2011 #24
al103

I can't understand one thing - why people think that Rin would try to kill Shiro after learning about harem? When it's pretty clear that she'll just sigh and declare that because Shiro is hers then it's her harem. Now running away without her - that could be valid reason for killing Shiro.

3/19/2011 #25
whodidthewhatnow

Running away to start an harem without her?

3/19/2011 #26
al103

Nah, Rin clearly knows WHY did Shirou run and why that stupid "white knight" did it along. Harem is also nothing new and something expected from Shiro. Thing is - she would be pissed off that she need to bash that "white knight" out of him AGAIN. Killing him in process seems likely...

3/19/2011 #27
al103

Now there is interesting question... about Saber... would Kusano say "Onee-chan have sword too!!!" or not?

3/19/2011 #28
Kumoatsu

Finally I get a chance to get online. Okay my points as they stand are

1. Using the familiar bonding ritual that rin used to aquire saber as her familiar. This is actually it. No other points needed. It has been shown in the story that rin aquired saber as her "familiar/servant" earlier on in the storyline.

- It is shown that the contracts that sekirei form are really low power so he can sever/transfer akitsus contract.

- For the insertion of the magic circuit have you read the wiki page yet? It clearly states that it is only the common practice to make a dead thing a familiar but not always. I was refering to the act of putting in some genetic materail that has magic circuits in it along with the ritual that he is doing to wing akitsu.

I believe that covers all the points I need to but if not I am in a massive rush to finish this so I can take care of something in the real world.

3/19/2011 #29
alguLoD

al103: Naw. Kusano-chan only cares about Onii-san, so she only cares about Onii-sans awesome swords.

...

Oh God what did I just say...

3/19/2011 #30
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