The Mechanics of In Flight
One of my reviewers mentioned the idea of starting a forum for those who want to debate various points of my story without clogging up the review section too much. I decided to go ahead and give it a try.
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Sucal

Just another generic topic. This one is to free up space in the WMG and similar topics for arguments over the really fiddly bits of lore either side. Have a question you want the Lunatics to answer, post it here. Anyway, I'll start it. Is Matsu's brain type power restricted to computers, or is it any type of electronic device. Or even any type of technology.

5/1/2011 . Edited 5/1/2011 #1
YamiheKazeto

It is most probably limited to anything that has a processor. The thing is, most electronic stuff has one nowadays so it's not much of a limit.

5/1/2011 #2
zraith

About Norito, do the Sekirei know what to say because of genetic memory or did they come up with them while they were getting adjusted?

5/1/2011 #3
YamiheKazeto

Now that is a difficult one

Personally I'm leaning towards the "genetic memory" bit, since it would be pretty awkward if that was something humans programmed them to do, but it can go either way, and we won't know until we get an explanation for that in Sekirei manga.

5/1/2011 #4
zraith

Personally, I don't believe it's ever going to get an explanation in the manga. It'll be one of those little things that people accept and don't really pay attention to. Well at least in In Flight there could be several ways of having it explained: genetic memory or something like a release chant (like what Alucard did when need more access to his power). But if its a release chant, it would bring up the question and possibility that MBI (or at least its core people) has access to sealing spells.

5/1/2011 #5
Sucal

This might have been already stated, but I figured I would ask anyway. What effects would things like landmines and similar have on the typical servant. Nothing big or flashy, just using a bazooka or similar against someone like Lancer or Beserker.

5/1/2011 #6
kittybear

Nothing, nothing at all.

5/1/2011 #7
whodidthewhatnow

Normal attacks without prana can't hurt them not because of inherent thoughness (though that can play into negating the damage potential) but because they are inherent spiritual bodies. So a boken with reinforcement can hurt them (even if the attempt is pathetic) but a normal boken will never be able to do so.

5/1/2011 #8
gwonbush

Disregard....

5/1/2011 . Edited 5/1/2011 #9
YamiheKazeto

@Sucal: Only noble phantasms, objects wielded by heroic spirits, or those magically enchanted (including ones projected by EMIYA/Shirou, though it's possible that the effect here only exists because all things he used in combat are noble phantasms) can hurt heroic spirits.

You won't be able to hurt a heroic spirit with rocket launcher, unless you give it to a heroic spirit; there was a similar situation in Fate/Zero where Lancelot was capable of hurting Arturia with modern weaponry specifically because he was wielding them.

In other words - if there is no magic and no relation to heroic spirits at all, it won't work on them.

5/1/2011 #10
whodidthewhatnow

It wasn't because Lancelot was a Heroic Spirit, but it was because his NP 'Knight of Honor' that turns any object he touches into a rank D NP which he have mastery and ownership to it, based on the legend where he fought in a duel with only a stick he found on the ground due to technicalities. Gil sure got pissed by that guy, I guess even more than Archer.

5/1/2011 #11
YamiheKazeto

Actually, it was stated in Fate/Stay Night that even a stick will be able to hurt heroic spirits if it is held by another heroic spirit, since it will be treated as magically empowered attack. It will still be pathetic since it's just a stick, and what Lancelot's "Knight of Honor" did was make those things a little less pathetic and make it possible for Lancelot (who was Berserker at the time) to use them skilfully; it's tied with the whole "defeating Phelot with an elm branch" thing.

5/1/2011 #12
Aarik Wrath

No, any object wielded by any heroic spirit will work, even a spoon, it's just that Noble Phantasm's are better.

5/1/2011 #13
alguLoD

@Aarik Wrath: Well, that, and a Noble Phantasm has it's own rank. An A+ level NP will always count as an A+ level attack, regardless of the user (though there are probably exceptions to this rule i.e. holy weapons wielded by unholy entities and the like) while a non-magical item (such as a spoon) will strike with the Servant's own power. Say a Servant has a strength of B+ and any strike from that Servant will count as a B+ level strike regardless of what he is striking with.

At least, as far as I understand it.

5/1/2011 #14
Matrim363

I don't think it quite works that way, I agree with the bit about the spoon but I figure its a basic addition thing like a+b=c with a being the servants inate abilities and b being the weapon itself and c being output -_-;;; I mean the weapon might be great but if Excalibur was used by Caster it wouldn't be as effective y'know?

5/1/2011 #15
YamiheKazeto

@Matrim363: We aren't talking about the effect of noble phantasms when they are used by people who (considering the rules of this universe) shouldn't be able to use it at all. We are talking about the difference between weapons held by heroic spirits and those not held by them, which is quite easily definable and in no way related to neither Excalibur nor Medea.

And it's not an addition here, but rather a logic OR function, with "can hurt servants" being a boolean 1 and "can't hurt servants" being a boolean 0. That means you get 1 only if at least one of your input values is equal to 1, and 0 in any other case.

Though we were talking about the "noble phantasms used by people who can't use them", and we came to the conclusion that they can't use them at all; further discussions diverted into the topic of what attacks can hurt heroic spirits and what attacks cannot.

5/1/2011 #16
Sucal

How about contemporary weapons used by Spirits/Servants against other servants. Or would it just be easier to have a rank or two in Master of Arms or whatever skill fourth war beserker had

5/1/2011 #17
YamiheKazeto

Modern weapons used by heroic spirits are capable of hurting other heroic spirits, though they'll fare less than optimally against more resilient ones. They'll work on heroic spirits just as well as they normally work on humans, but some of them don't just rely on that and are really hard to kill (EMIYA has a cloth that protects him from hard {though it's a rather mild example}, Hercules will simply shrug this kind of damage, Cu Chullain will die if you manage to hit him but you are in a hell of a fight since he won't stop moving after you do, and Arturia is armoured and thus you'll have to use high-caliber weaponry or AP bullets to cause any harm unless you hit her in the head; those are only examples of fifth war's servants, and there are many more such "humans"), and most of the time servant has a noble phantasm which is stronger than the modern weapon you are able to provide him with, so unless he had lost it, it's almost pointless (though sometimes it is a valid tactic, as shown by Lancelot in the fourth grail war; he had his "Knight of Honor" thing so even firearms counted as noble phantasms however {D-ranked, but still}, so he has it a little easier with that).

Oh, and "Knight of Honor" was one of his noble phantasms, so it's not a skill you can train in, unless you defeat a knight with a branch (since that's where the legend, and thus noble phantasm, comes from).

5/1/2011 . Edited 5/1/2011 #18
Sucal

Ah ok. I was mostly thinking because I was hypothesising how a true assassin class servant would have stood a chance in the fifth war. So far the only way I worked out how they might have stood a chance agaist berserker basically came down to a field of landmines, the concealment class skill, and one or more stolen miniguns to attract his attention. But then with god hand, all that collected firepower would merely take off a single life at most, making a non phantasm ex machina type victory harder to think of.

5/1/2011 #19
Rabe Addler

any idea who Rin drew before Shiro became (Archer)Emiya?

5/1/2011 #20
YamiheKazeto

She drew EMIYA - remember that at the time she tried summoning a Servant Shirou had yet to become EMIYA, and he (EMIYA) exists in all universes even though there are some in which Shirou didn't become him, and yet she managed to summon him regardless (how does a universe know if he will become a counter-guardian, anyway).

It might've been possible for her to summon another heroic spirit if she hadn't used that jewel as a summoning catalyst (you can choose any "hero" and write a fiction if you wish so), but for as long as she used that jewel, she'll get nobody but EMIYA since there has to be a relation between summoner and the summoned spirit, and this gem connects him to Rin.

@Sucal: Yeah, Hassan-ibn-Sabbah basically doesn't stand a chance against Berserker!Hercules on his own, that's canon. I think it was also canon that neither Medea nor Medusa would be able to defeat him, while Cu Chullain would have to use his runes in a pretty creative way, and Sakaki wouldn't even take a life.

5/1/2011 . Edited 5/1/2011 #21
Aarik Wrath

@sucal: With such mortal weapons, Berserker would only be harmed if the attacker had an A-Rank Strength stat, and then only once.

God Hand only block's A Rank stuff once after all.

Hence why Shirou was able to one-shot Dark Berserker with his own Axe-Sword, even though neither the Axe-Sword or Nine Lives have a rank, Shirou 'obtained' Berserker's own A-Rank Strength stat, and Berserker has never attacked himself, and was thus not immune to his own attack stat.

Rin's gem worked once because it was A-Ranked Thaumaturgy.

ANYTHING that has the attribute of 'A_RANK' or higher will do damage to God Hand, regardless of what it is or how powerful it is, God Hand only cares about Rank, so Caster would be able to hurt him with her High-Speed-Divine-Words, because it's A-Rank, though whether she would be able to KILL him once with her spells is questionable with his Magic Resistance.

5/1/2011 #22
Rabe Addler

No you're not getting it, Archer/Emiya doesn't remember Archer/Emya being chosen as Rin servant so who does he remember as Rin servant in his first 5th war as Shiro?

5/1/2011 #23
gwonbush

Archer's info on the wiki:

On the night of the second day, his statement that his memories were vague and he didn't know his identity due the imperfect summoning was halfway true and halfway false. He no longer possesses Emiya Shirou's memory, although he can still remember some key events such as being saved by Emiya Kiritsugu and meeting Saber. While Rin slept, he reasoned out his situation and realized that he may have the opportunity to achieve his goal. This was affirmed when the girl who summoned him introduced herself as Tohsaka Rin the following morning.

Either he does not remember who from the above statement, or he is not going to tell. Although, it is without a doubt an Archer class who was summoned by her, sine when she summoned Archer there were only two servants left and he remembers meeting Saber.

Alternatively, he was summoned in his first 5th war and never found out Archer's identity (read: Fate Route).

5/1/2011 #24
DarthNacho

@Aarik Wrath Actually it was a two shot, but still

@Rabe Addler Where are you getting that from?

5/1/2011 #25
YamiheKazeto

@Rabe Addler: He remembers EMIYA, since he was Shirou in the past. Heroic spirits (which EMIYA is, as a counter-guardian) exist outside of time (and it was one of his own reasons for wagering his own "life" on creating a paradox), so even if he wasn't a heroic spirit called EMIYA yet, it was possible to summon him because he will exist.

If this is difficult to understand then there is no other answer to this question for you.

5/1/2011 #26
SilverBack354

All that is within the Throne of Heroes exists in past, present, and future simultaneously meaning when they pull from the Throne of Heroes it can pull from past, present, or future and from all realities at that too.

It's just that most Masters in the Grail Wars use something from a hero of the past so that they know who they're getting

5/1/2011 . Edited 5/1/2011 #27
whodidthewhatnow

Probably he wasn't summoned in his original timeline. There are different types of infinite you know?

5/1/2011 #28
YamiheKazeto

I actually think he was summoned in his original timeline, since without EMIYA being there he most probably would not have gotten killed by Cu Chullain and thus wouldn't have kept the jewel Rin used to save his life. He might've not been summoned in some timelines, but I think he was a necessity in the original timeline.

5/1/2011 #29
whodidthewhatnow

Not really. All that need to happen was for Cu Chullain to fight Archer, Shirou getting killed and Rin saving him. It could very well be a another Archer who was fighting Lancer at the time.

5/1/2011 #30
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