The Mechanics of In Flight
One of my reviewers mentioned the idea of starting a forum for those who want to debate various points of my story without clogging up the review section too much. I decided to go ahead and give it a try.
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SilverBack354

I think that in all realities where he becomes Emiya Shirou he will become a master in the 5th Grail War and as such will meet EMIYA just like how every past that EMIYA has where he becomes EMIYA his life is saved by Rin with the jewel.

ARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH

all this thinking of timelines and dimensional changes is giving me a headache

5/1/2011 #31
YamiheKazeto

We only need Cu Chullain to fight Archer with the same outcome (Archer running with Rin from the roof, and then fighting in a way that stalled time) - most Archers wouldn't do anything like that, since they would either run away or try fighting back on the rooftops.

And unless you want to create a rewrite of the fifth grail war with Rin getting a different Archer and Shirou still staying alive through the whole war while being able to fight back (he saved Ilyasviel, you know - that means he either fought against Hercules, or that which killed Hercules), I'm of the opinion that it's rather unlikely. Not impossible, but still unlikely.

5/1/2011 #32
Sucal

@YamiheKazeto I was more thinking a generic/other assassin as a servant, not one of the Hassassins. I also disagree with your opinion of Caster not being able to defeat him, considering she could just use rulebreaker to steal him. That would count as a win in my opinion. Then again I also disagree with the whole 'Rider can't defeat him' thing as well.' Hitting him with a combination of her eyes and BFA would likely slow him down, then she could bring out that damn Pegasus.

5/1/2011 #33
YamiheKazeto

"Defeating" meant "killing him enough times to make him stay dead" in this case, so while Medea might've been able to use Rule Breaker on him, it's not the same. And I really fail to see Medea getting close enough to Hercules to use Rule Breaker without being reduced to something resembling salsa. And Medusa wouldn't be able to defeat him because after killing him once with Bellerophon, he would become completely resistant to it, and thus she wouldn't be able to use it against him effectively any more.

5/1/2011 #34
whodidthewhatnow

Can't apparently. Berserker would get immune to her spells eventually, and getting close enough to use Rule Breaker is suicide on her part. Differently from Shirou, Illya is proper magus, with whatever good that come from.

Rider can kill him more times, but again, he would get immune to her after a while.

5/1/2011 #35
Sucal

With Bellerophon it depends though. It would likely deal multiple lives worth of damage at once, in a similar manner to caliburn and excalibur. Plus it has multiple different ways to attack, and is said to be more or less the equivlant of a dragon in strength and defense. Throw in her Mystic eyes (which at A+ I believe could hurt him, and her higher then normal noble phantasm skill, (which I believe also boosts the power of the phantasms,) and I think she'd have a decent chance. Especially if she managed to catch both him and Illya in BFA.

I mean, her eyes reduce all his stats by one, so wouldn't that allow BFA to drain him?

5/1/2011 #36
YamiheKazeto

Her mystic eyes won't hurt Hercules. Slow him down at most. And it's not like he will gain an immunity to a form of attack used by Medusa's mount - he'll simply gain immunity to all of its attacks, so unless she can kill him eleven or twelve times with Bellerophon at once, she'll lose. And even if she used Blood Fort Andromeda, it would at most take one life; Ilyasviel as a familiar with very potent magic circuits might be resistant to its effect so it's not like she'll collapse that quickly.

Remember that there is a difference between being able to kill something, and being able to kill something multiple times, with each weapon and each skill only working once.

Yes, Berserker!Hercules is massively broken in comparison to most other servants of the fifth grail war. He didn't even use his mad enchantment's bonuses and he was that strong.

5/1/2011 #37
gwonbush

The only Phantasm that his Mad Enhancement allowed him to use was God Hand. He would be even more broken if he had his sanity. If he had motor control, he would be able to use Nine Lives instead of just swinging it wildly and powerfully.

5/1/2011 #38
whodidthewhatnow

He is still allowed one more NP. And for the God of Strength, he was quite pathetic on that. I was expecting something like Scion where with Epic Strength 10 you can use a building as a club.

5/1/2011 #39
Sucal

Other then things tend to explode around her, and that she can make things indestructible, what do we know about Aozaki Aoko and her fighting style. Other then the Blue Ex Machina I mean.

5/2/2011 #40
whodidthewhatnow

We need to wait for Mahou Tsukai no Yoru. It's difficult to get the originals those days.

5/2/2011 #41
Sucal

That doesn't help. I was considering writing her into an Omake, and that would be rather hard if I can't grip her personality. Or at least her abilities. So I was hoping one of you had played melty-blood or similar.

5/2/2011 #42
Sucal

Anyway, more random questions. Quite a few, becasue I'm bored and the forum currently appears to be dead.

Other then a way to annoy Nanako, what exactly is the Seventh Holy Scripture currently meant to be. I mean, it was origianlly meant to be a sword or spear from what I've been able to read up about, but apparently it was modified into a jackhammer or something? Anyway, more importantly, could Shirou trace it, and if he could, do you think he'd trace the original or modified version. Heck, would he get his own mini copy of Nanako while wielding it...

5/2/2011 #43
d3structor

It would probably be best to think of the Seventh Holy Scripture to be similar to a bayonet with hydraulics to get more stabbing power. Originally it was made from a unicorn horn and a young girl as a way to fight reincarnation but was modified to use instead scripture (more effective against vampires?). I think it is likely the horn is still at the core of the weapon but only to add to the concept of "this will destroy the spirit" or something along those lines.

I don't see why shirou wouldn't be able to trace it, I mean doesn't the legend of Kansho and Byakuya have the blacksmith's wife throwing herself into the furnace to give the weapons a little extra edge. Same thing in this case.

5/2/2011 #44
alguLoD

@SilverBack354: Actually, it's not as complicated as it may seem. Counter Guardians are simply outside of time - there is no time loop. If EMIYA killed Emiya he wouldn't cease to exist, though he hoped it would... But it was more out of desperation and despair that he tried than anything else.

5/2/2011 #45
whodidthewhatnow

I like the version where he realized how futile it was and tried to kill him to release some stress.

5/2/2011 #46
Sucal

More stupid questions, but Shirou can trace ordinary swords and the like as well right?

5/3/2011 #47
iota0000

In short, yes. He can trace damn near anything, it's just that swords are the most efficient and accurate for him to trace, given that his origin is swords.

5/3/2011 #48
whodidthewhatnow

Never mind the word of troll here. I'm pretty sure if Shirou applies himself enough, I think he can trace any form of mundane equipment.

5/3/2011 #49
Sucal

Hmmm, not sure if I asked this or not. Does/Has Nasu ever said what happens to the 'originals' of the Noble Phantasms. Take Excalibur I mean. Now we know that Saber has the phantasm version of it. But is it possible that the version of it she wielded while alive is still in a museum somewhere, similar to how Avalon was apparently.

5/3/2011 #50
whodidthewhatnow

Difficult to say. It's possible she wouldn't come with Avalon if it wasn't used as a focus to summoning. I think the original versions are as strong as the phantasm, but probably take more prana to activate the effect or something.

5/3/2011 #51
Sucal

Mostly curious for a hypothetical omake.

5/3/2011 #52
iota0000

Not perfectly sure about this, but the only real NPs I recall floating around outside of those inherent to Heroes are Fragarach and Nine Lives (which was basically a slab of tombstone empowered by Herakles' legend, if I'm remembering correctly).

Also, troll? I fail to see how my response was trolling? I may have exaggerated slightly in his repertoire, but we know that it's not just swords that Shirou hides in his marble, but pretty much anything his pseudo mystic eyes analyze is available there. Since tracing is just him projecting from UBW, I don't see why he should be limited only to swords. His origin lends him efficiency there, and even efficiency takes off a rank, so there's a definite limit on tracing, but I don't remember coming across any explicit denial of his ability thereof. If anything, his non-sword weapons and things like Rho Ais lend credence to such speculation.

5/3/2011 #53
Sucal

I think that Fragarach was the only one that could actually be used by humans/her family had the ability to use it. I'm more wondering if they would be around even in an inert or unusable form.

5/3/2011 #54
whodidthewhatnow

@iota0000 I was talking about Nasu itself, with his completely reliable and never contradictory information.

5/4/2011 #55
Aarik Wrath

@iota0000: Nine Lives isn't the slab, Nine Lives is a MARTIAL ART'S STYLE, one founded on being able to turn ANYTHING into Nine Magical Homing Dragon Lasers.

Noble Phantasm's don't have much of a limit on what they can be really.

5/4/2011 #56
YamiheKazeto

Technically speaking, there are noble phantasms somewhere in the world, and the only problem is to find them. Of course some of them (Excalibur being a good example, ask Bedivere if you don't know the reason) are impossible to find, but the rest is quite findable provided you have money; after all, it's easier to find items of legends than it is to find mundane items with a certain connection to a chosen heroic spirit, and seeing as in most cases an item like that had to be used to summon said spirit (the only exceptions I know of being Hassan-ibn-Sabbah, Sakaki Kojirou, and EMIYA {the last one because it is a mundane item that is the catalyst}).

They aren't exactly usable since most people (and most magi, too) don't even have the amount of prana necessary to activate them, not to mention the whole "only usable by true owners" thing, but they can be used as decorations if you feel like being an ass (since using it like that is like giving a finger to the participants of the next grail war).

And yes, Fragarachs are usable by Bazett's family. That's because it's their noble phantasm (phantasms, since they are "consumable"), and it is made with their own blood. Kind of wicked if you ask me, but I've seen more noticeable examples.

And Arturia didn't come with Avalon in the package because she still hadn't died, and so she only had what she had when she was summoned, not what legends gave her; it was explained somewhere that if she were to be summoned after her death, she would have Avalon with her, though it wouldn't be the same Avalon that is in Shirou (as in: there would be no interferences).

@whodidthewhatnow: I don't know if by "troll" you were referring to Nasu or iota0000, but I don't think the latter's answer was trolling. But whatever.

5/4/2011 #57
blackmamuth

So, are sekireis affected by bonduary fields, miya did enter Shirou's shack without the bonduary field warning Shirou, but, on the other hand, Tsukiumi was unnerver in the Osaka park, and in previous chapters, shirou stated that he prepared the field with runes making the park creepy. On the other hand, shirou is giving Norito's to Matsu regularly in his workshop, so, if the Bonduary field failed to warn shirou of Matsu's presence, he'd have noted so, right?

5/4/2011 #58
whodidthewhatnow

Shirou is a crappy traditional magi and Miya is much more battle jagged than Tsukiumi. I believe he set a minor ward that makes anyone trying to enter to be unnerved and wary. Most magi would break it because it is 'so pathetic', while other creatures would simply ignore it and enter anyway, while others would be affected by it, if only because of their nerves.

5/4/2011 #59
YamiheKazeto

More or less. And Miya is regretful enough over some things not to feel it in full effect, while Shirou's sekirei probably feel good enough by being in his presence to ignore it. Or they are simply resistant because those are Shirou's charms.

5/4/2011 #60
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