The Mechanics of In Flight
One of my reviewers mentioned the idea of starting a forum for those who want to debate various points of my story without clogging up the review section too much. I decided to go ahead and give it a try.
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gabriel blessing

I always thought that Noble Phantoms can't exist in the world anymore. Aren't they aspects of Heroic Spirits, which don't actually exist in a comprehensible form? The Fraga are able to reproduce Fragarch through the use of their blood and power, but they're not actually making the Phantom itself, but reproducing it through a medium. In order for them to become Noble Phantoms, they have to become legendary tools first. There might be a weapon which existed as the base of the Noble Phantom, but while its in existence the original weapon is actually either a Conceptual Weapon, or simply an incredibly badass Mystic Code of some variety.

That's why there's so much confusion over Avalon's status. There probably is a Noble Phantom version of Avalon somewhere, but the one in Fate/Stay Night is the original Fairy Conceptual Weapon. In Fate Zero it's actually referred to as a Conceptual Weapon anyway.

That's always how it appeared to me anyway. A Noble Phantom not actually being a weapon, but just the embodiment of a piece of a legend, the whole 'crystalized miracle' line that Nasu likes to use.

And as for Miya being able to ignore Shirou's bounded fields, I actually some logic for that, though I doubt it'll ever come up in In Flight. In Kara no Kyoukai Touko tells Shiki not to draw an ancient katana because it might affect the wards. There was some logic behind that about how weapons with history or accumulated power can affect wards. I kind of ran with the idea and in the end decided that Miya is just so naturally power that she ends up accidentally ignoring the wards entirely.

5/4/2011 #61
YamiheKazeto

Whatever, it makes sense (the part about Miya).

The part about noble phantasms I don't necessarily agree with, but the difference is rather meaningless here.

5/4/2011 #62
blackmamuth

So, NP are kinda heroic spirits? they reach the level of "legendary tools" and dwell in the throne of heroes? Still, there is the fact that Emiya supposedly stumbled upon Kanshou and bakuya during his lifetime, and since the wiki says that those two swords aren't associatied to an heroic spirit, Kinda meant that NP are still around? or at least their broken down remains?

5/4/2011 #63
YamiheKazeto

Technically speaking, they exist, or at least their remains exist, or at the very least, some dirt that was once their remains does exist. It's just that new conceptual weapons are very seldom made, and old ones can't really be used by most people (we can even say "by most magi", since not one muggle that is fully human can use them).

It's not like those weapons do ascend with heroic spirits when they die - they remain in the world, but much more often than not, they are unusable. Let's take Kanshou and Bakuya; we know EMIYA used them while he was alive, and unless he broke them sometime during his life, they remained in the world when he died, but there was nobody left to use them (bah, if you want a really sad version, you can say that they were probably the only thing that had been left at the place of his death).

5/4/2011 . Edited 5/4/2011 #64
gabriel blessing

I remember Nasu mentioning that weapons could ascend on their own, if they were famous enough. Something like how modern weapons were the ones receiving the praise and thus becoming legendary and all. It's possible that the Kanshou and Bakuya did the same. At least, that's the way it appears to me.

Their legend themselves was the whole 'wife sacrificing herself for the swords sake' which made them famous. From the various accounts I came across afterward the two were used by a variety of different heroes. They were originally crafted on the order of the emperor, or some other high end political dude, and afterward the husband gave them to someone who had beef with that emperor so that the hero could avenge his wife's death for him. I'm not sure of the specifics, mostly cause the names are chinese and I'm not to go at remembering chinese names off the top of my head, but even though they were famous their fame came more from their crafting and how they were later used to kill the emperor that had ordered their creation. Thus, they became famous and Noble Phantoms, but since they didn't have a famous wielder to be associated and were instead passed along, they never got much pride attached to them by their users. Thus, they become blades without pride. I'm not sure where I heard it, but I think someone mentioned that they also got the 'king killer' attribute attached to them at some point for being famous for killing the emperor dude.

Anyone got any specifics on the situation, or notice anything I got blatantly wrong?

5/4/2011 #65
YamiheKazeto

Well, "weapon ascending" means that it gains powers and is accessible even after it ceases to exist on Earth, but not that it physically vanishes sometime "just because".

And the whole story was that after his wife sacrificed her life to create the swords, blacksmith gave one to the emperor and the other one to his son. The emperor hired an assassin to kill that son, who was travelling to the emperor's palace to avenge his mother, and it was him [the assassin] who took the sword after killing him, since he felt bad that he has to kill him after hearing his story. Or something like that, there is a vaguely correct translation of this story, but I don't know if this is the correct version.

And I don't think they have anything special related to killing, since such an attribute would be too prideful for those swords, but I might be wrong here.

5/4/2011 #66
gabriel blessing

The problem with legends. There's just so many versions of them floating around.

Still, it does leave a little room open for interpretation I suppose. I'm flat out willing to admit that I'm one of the Nasu fans out there that only accepts what happens in stories as genuine canon. I play it fast and loose with the material that was only released through source material. Nasu workings are pretty intricate, and sometimes I just can't keep track of all the rules, so when that happens I just shrug and claim author's indulgence.

5/4/2011 #67
Shadow Rave

That's probably the best policy. If you keep worrying about contradicting Nasu rules every single time, nothing would ever get written. And that's not just you. That's all the writer's willing to write in Nasuverse. The FS/N writing community wouldn't even be a quarter as large in that case.

5/4/2011 #68
SilverBack354

@GB

I always just go with this idea

Thanks to the second magic everything anyone can think of for Nasuverse is canon in some world or another.

Who knows there just might be a world out there that runs on rule of cool like Gurren Laggen.

5/4/2011 #69
YamiheKazeto

I agree with that.

There are some things that are better off not discarding, but most of the time it's the best to simply base it on the stories and ignore the so-called "supplemental materials", at least for as long as you don't break any important rules (aka. if you have doubts about something important, simply ask; if you don't get normal answer, simply stop caring and choose whichever version you want; if it's a minor thing, get to "stop caring" from the start).

5/4/2011 #70
zraith

Wasn't entirely sure where this should go, so I put it here.

About Musubi/Yume thing and possibly putting another view on how 'broken' Musubi actually is.

But first a little guessing about Tama (Sekirei soul). The way that its described in canon (currently), the Tama is something like a crystallized memory storage and power plant rolled into one. With the Tama being like a crystallized brain and the actual place where the Sekirei memories are stored instead of the brain cells, this would explain why Homura (in canon) mentions casually about getting a new body and also Sekirei tendency to fight to the 'death.' As long as this Tama isn't destroyed and someone has the technology (MBI), the revival of a Sekirei is guaranteed. This would also explain why so many Sekirei can actually considered the Sekirei Plan a game. Sekirei would still experience a natural death and die if there isn't a new prepared body for them to place their Tama into.

Back to Musubi/Yume. The Musubi that we see in canon Sekirei and In Flight isn't who she really was originally and its probable that we'll never will. After receiving Yume's Tama and having experienced whatever trauma that she did, her original personality somewhat seized to exist as being solely hers. Her current personality and quirks like 'the Power of Love', obsession with fighting Karasuba, occasional maturity and insight and such is actually Yume's more mature personality that has bled over. What bled over from the Tama has either been assimilated as 'Musubi' by Musubi's recovering brain, influenced existing personality traits and/or has overpowered other parts as Musubi was developing and unconsciously influenced.

What we now have is a body with split personalities where one could be considered a regressed version of the other; Yume (the mature personality) and Musubi who has imprinted so heavily on Yume's personality that could be better considered Yume as a child in a new body and experiencing amnesia.

I'm not trying to bash Musubi or anything, but with Musubi not having her own Tama and living so long with Yume's, I would expect that parts of Yume's personality would have bled over onto Musubi.

5/4/2011 #71
Lask

Eh, while I'm sure Yume has influenced Musubi, I doubt Yume would have transplanted her Tama if it was just going to overwite her. It's more like Musubi grew up around Yume's influence, much like how a child will grow up around their parents influence, and how that child will adopt many of the same attitudes and beliefs.

5/4/2011 #72
whodidthewhatnow

Wasn't Shirou Origin Swords before Nasu corrected that and said it was Avalon's fault?

5/4/2011 #73
Lask

I think we learn Shiou's origin at he same time we're told it's Avalon's fault, so no.

5/4/2011 #74
Ttestagr

Okay, here is the thing about Noble Phantasms and heroic spirits that was clarified in Complete Materials 3. Only the legend matters. Some heroes actually did their legends, but some people's are just myths and stories. But for the heroic spirit that is their history anyway, even if its made up. Specifically, we were told this is the case for Medusa and Herakles.

We find out more about Medusa specifically, that she wasn't cursed by the gods. She was just the youngest of three goddesses, who was born imperfectly. That flaw gave her power to protect her sisters, who in exchange for being perfect had no ability to defend themselves. They were even truly immortal while the Olympians required the golden apples. Anyway, Medusa defended them and even with her flaws overcame them to be a magnificent goddess in her own right. Which pissed off Athena and the other gods, who banished them to the shapeless isle and absorbed their worshipers. Word of god tells us that all three lived out their lives as normal humans. However, Athena wasn't done being nasty, and spread the stories of Medusa being a monster. And eventually, we know a hero went to that island and murdered her needlessly. But because the rumors became so widespread and accepted, she entered the Throne of Heroes as a monster with the monstrous Noble Phantasms that the legend is linked with.

Arturia is an interesting case of a person who actually did accomplish her legend, so her feats needed no exaggeration. However, unless she becomes a counter guardian, she is incapable of entering the Throne. Because the final bit of her legend remember, is that she is in Avalon waiting to wake again when she is needed. That part of her legend makes her incompatible with the Throne, which seems to need the legend to involve them actually dying in order to claim them. So Excalibur and Avalon cannot be Noble Phantasms like other heroes in the Throne who's NP recreate their legend. Since they never were in the Throne, those two had to have been NP right off the bat. This is further supported by the description of what they are, 'the wishes of mankind.' And according to CM3, literally. They are made of wishes, not metal. It is also further supported by the fact that the actual artifact avalon we see operates as a Noble Phantasm when it has Saber's prana. Otherwise it is just a conceptual weapon. Kiritsugu pretty much stated flat out that it was a conceptual weapon that could be used as a "Master's Noble Phantasm."

5/4/2011 #75
SilverBack354

I go with the awesome answer and say that his Origin was Swords before he was even born and with him being a Smith Hero being that in many past lives he was the maker of weapons that would become Noble Phantasms. Actually this would fit in with why he prefers certain weapons over others with it being that he was in a past life the one who made it so how best to use it comes more naturally to him than with the other even though he reads the history of them all.

5/4/2011 #76
zraith

@Lask

Yume's influence on Musubi would be a lot greater than a child growing up and being influenced by their parents, especially if the Tama are what canon say they are. Also I'm not saying that Musubi's personality was overwritten by Yume's, only certain aspects of Musubi's original personality.

5/4/2011 #77
whodidthewhatnow

I like the version where his Origin was something else but changed when the fire came and he broke, effectively killing the old him by making him have amnesia of his past and behaving in a completely different way than his past self.

5/4/2011 #78
gabriel blessing

Interesting tid bit about 'Origins'. All an origin means is that every incarnation of Shirou ever has had something to do with his base nature. From what I can make of that, it just means that he's always had swords in his life, even when he wasn't human in a past life or existence. That means he could have been a smith, a collector, a trader, a warrior, an innocent victim that got cut down, an animal that has been the same, a tree that was used to heat a fire that forged a sword, a piece of brush that was killed by a warrior using a sword to clear a path, etc etc.

Am I more or less reading this right? I know in Kara no Kyoukai when that one guy, Len was it? The one who had his origin awakened and was deforming into a pack of ravenous beasts anyway. When he was getting his back story they said that in every incarnation he had always been a carnivore of some kind, regardless of his height on the food chain.

5/4/2011 #79
d3structor

I've got a bit of a question; its been bothering me for a while and I am hopeful someone can explain it.

Kirei kept Gilgamesh from the 4th Holy Grail war.

Kirei kept the survivors of the fire to provide mana for Gilgamesh.

Gilgamesh gained a flesh and blood body from the grail.

Why does he need the mana supplement? He has his body back so there should be no need for outside sources if he was capable of using his weapons when he was alive.

5/5/2011 #80
Ttestagr

Gilgamesh doesn't need the prana to stay alive. However, he does need it to use his Noble Phantasms. It is very briefly mentioned that Saber had no chance at any kind of battle of attrition because of her limited source of power while Gilgamesh was gorging himself for a decade when he didn't need to.

5/5/2011 #81
d3structor

But there should only be so much he can store, he has a maximum capacity (supposedly everyone does) so I don't see how that makes a significant difference.

5/5/2011 #82
SilverBack354

Probably has a NP or a few dozen of them that can store energy for him.

5/5/2011 #83
YamiheKazeto

@d3structor: Actually, it's explained somewhere that his capacity is extraordinarily large, so he can store it all within yourself. It must have something to do with being partially a god, and with him getting a new body from the grail's taint. And as it was explained before, he kept gathering prana because sword-spam is expensive.

5/5/2011 #84
whodidthewhatnow

He also had Independent Action A~A+, which gives him practically unlimited time if he don't use any NP

5/5/2011 #85
d3structor

My problem with believing he could store it all within himself is that his mana stat is only ranked B.

I was also of the opinion that he likely is able to store excess mana in some artifact within his vault even though that ability is supposedly fairly rare.

And sword spam cant be that bad if he was doing it during the fourth war; if it was as bad as it seemed to cost in the fifth war I would expect his mana costs to be comparable or greater than berserker's (and that doesn't usually end well)

5/5/2011 #86
YamiheKazeto

Mana ranking of B means he can only release so much at a time, not that he can hold so much.

It was explained by Rin near the end of Heaven's Feel that magi's ability to release prana is what counts here, and after certain points (which servants had crossed) the amount of prana is irrelevant for this ranking.

And it's not "that bad" when it comes to releasing prana - Gilgamesh is using his prana slowly as he does it, and the amount he got from these kind was simply meant to supply him with enough prana to get throughout the whole war blasting if he had to. And besides, we were told that he had enough prana to be worth more than just one servant, in Heaven's Feel, and why would anybody say something like that about a guy whose ranking is only B if it was based on quantity?

5/5/2011 #87
d3structor

I was under the impression that the amount of prana that can be released is in excess of the person's maximum stores.

I was looking at Rin as an example who has a capacity of 500 units but can release 1000 at any given time.

And when it was said that Gilgamesh was worth more than one servant I thought that other factors were included such as age of the legend, general strength of the servant, along those lines.

(NOTE: I believe that you are likely right it just seems terribly inconsistent to me if that is the way it works)

5/5/2011 #88
YamiheKazeto

That's because it's Nasuverse, and thus many things don't make sense at first (and there are some which never make sense).

And servants do have a limit too, but it simply is high enough due to them being spiritual beings that most of them don't care (you can count their prana in thousands most of the time); Gilgamesh was no longer "spiritual" during the fifth war, but his limit was still "somewhere up high".

So even if they did have approximately the same release limit magi have (let's say 1 thousand, though most magi have lower limit) or a few times higher, they have enough prana for that limit to matter over that total prana limit.

5/5/2011 #89
Sucal

Question, did Gilgamesh use EA during the UBW route?

5/5/2011 #90
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