The Mechanics of In Flight
One of my reviewers mentioned the idea of starting a forum for those who want to debate various points of my story without clogging up the review section too much. I decided to go ahead and give it a try.
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Soup Fish

Shyraton I know your pain. I had to do Guinevere twice.

Hmm, the Drill seargent idea does not sound to bad, that might be his shnick, he is the only heroic spirit that can make normal people into troops capable of fighting servants if gatherinh in number. THat actually sounds like a great Idea! then you could have the fic/ story based from the point of view of someone who started out normal and then received the training from Tsun Tzu and became awsome fighters and solders who could chalange heroic spirits if they were in formation. we could see their suprise and emotonal response as they slowly became more and more magical themselves (Ganing a body like that of a Servant) becoming faster/ stronger ect) the story could trace the path from just some normal slub to a member of a band of warriors who become the war band of the heroic spirit Tsun Tzu.

5/8/2011 #61

Amusingly, that makes him sound like more of a counter guardian then a spirit. Unlike EMIYA who would fight the threats directly, he would set up a task force or similar, training them to fight the threat, before leaving them in place to deal with it if ever rose again.

5/8/2011 #62
Soup Fish

One of my first profiles I created back in the day, just goes to show how much i love Kill Bill

Heroic Spirit: Bak Mei/ Pai Mei

Possible Servant Class: Assassin

Alignment: Lawful Neutral


Endurance: D

Agility: A

Mana: C

Luck: C-

Noble Phantasm: None

Class Ability's: Presence concealment: D+

Personal Ability's:

Knowledge of Respect and harmony: A


Chinese martial arts: A++ (Bak Mei)

Death Touch Technique: A (Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique)

Appearance: Pai Mei Appears as a rather tall very old Chinese man in flowing white and black robes, with snow white hair and a long snow white beard.

Overview: The inventor of Bak Mei martial arts and the alleged traitor of the Shaolin to the imperials in ancient China, Pai Mei was one of the best martial artists of all time.

Through his supreme Mastery of his own body and his breathing techniques he was able to gain a sort of immortality, that prevented his strength from waning or his body from aging at a normal rate.

A cruel, extremely arrogant and vindictive Master, Pei Mei was the given the name the White Terror after killing an entire temple full of Shaolin monks over a perceived insult involving a unreturned bow.

He is the inventor of the Five point Palm Exploding heart Technique, a lightning fast series of palm and finger strikes that cause the victims heart to explode after taking five steps. Although he has no noble phantasm of his own, this move has ascended into legend with him becoming as powerful as a moderate Noble Phantasm.

Although he was eventually poisoned by his last student, Pei Mei lived hundreds of years before dieing and as such had wisdom and experience rarely found among typically short lived Heroic Spirits.

Will pluck your eye out if you call him a fool.

So don't call him a fool.

cuz he'll pluck your eye out he will.

also vulnerable to poison.

5/8/2011 . Edited 5/8/2011 #63

I thought the agreement was no fictional ones

5/8/2011 #64

Oh then forget my previous comment then.

5/8/2011 #65
Soup Fish

A few thing's. Pai Mei was a direct tribute to Balk Mei who was a influential historical figure that created his own branch of martial arts and changed Chinese history. The differences between the two are so paper thin that they are basically the same person except that Pai Mei was alive in the 21st century for some reason.

Second of all the agreement was that their would be no anime characters or such. Characters that can already throw giant fireballs around or kill entire armys with their fists.

You see at its core the Heroic Spirit Idea is a device so that older/ more down to earth badasses, who would get taken down in a second by things like guns or a wall of riot police with stun batons, can be powerful enough to actually fight army's/ world eating monstrosity's like they are suppose to.

Charicters like Uchiha Sasuke dont need that. They are already doing that as is. Its people like King Arthur who need the Heroic Spirit status because as much as we love them they just cant stand up to things like tanks or giant serpents the size of skyscrapers summoned by Orochimaru. They need the Heroic spirit status so that they can be the asskickers that their legends meant them to be in an age when most annoying teenage anime protagonists can blow up city blocks with their minds and there are killer vampiers who can tear through steel running around.

Am I making any sense or am I just rambling to myself?

5/8/2011 . Edited 5/8/2011 #66
Soup Fish

So yeah, I would love to see Van Hellsing. He goes all the way back to Bram Stokers Dracula

5/8/2011 #67

There is no problem with fictional/mythological characters, they just need to be either 'classic', well know or based on somebody real.

5/8/2011 #68
Rabe Addler

How about Himura kenshin? I mean false assassin is practically the prototype for his inclusion isn't it?

5/8/2011 #69

Not really. Try the guy that was based on Himura Kenshin, or bring his Hitokiri Batousai version to the grail war.

5/8/2011 #70

Alright here's a shot at it. Mind you I've never seen a copy of Bram Stokers novel so I'm just getting my info off of what I can find about the book and characters from other web sites.

Heroic Spirit: Abraham Van Helsing

Possible servant Class: Assassin

Alignment: Lawful Good

Strength: E+

Endurance: D

Agility: C

Mana: D-

Luck: B+

Resourcefulness: B

Noble Phantasm: C+

Class Skills: Presence Concealment: C

Personal Skills: Vampire Lore: A++

Armaments: Steel daggers, wooden stakes

Noble Phantasm: Black Iron Bonds (rank C+): A long iron chain that will rapidly leach mana out of an enemy it is wrapped around. Abraham forged this chain using his knowledge of vampires and the dark art as a way to trap creatures of an evil origin. It was with this chain that he bound the vampire lord Dracula long enough for his companions to slit his throat and impale his heart. The chain increases one full letter rank if used against vampires or demonic entities.

Apperance: (As discribed by character in book) a man of medium weight, strongly built, with his shoulders set back over a broad, deep chest and a neck well balanced on the trunk as the head is on the neck. The poise of the head strikes me at once as indicative of thought and power. The head is noble, well-sized, broad, and large behind the ears. The face, clean-shaven, shows a hard, square chin, a large resolute, mobile mouth, a good-sized nose, rather straight, but with quick, sensitive nostrils, that seem to broaden as the big bushy brows come down and the mouth tightens. The forehead is broad and fine, rising at first almost straight and then sloping back above two bumps or ridges wide apart, such a forehead that the reddish hair cannot possibly tumble over it, but falls naturally back and to the sides. Big, dark blue eyes are set widely apart, and are quick and tender or stern with the man's moods.

Abilities: Vampire Lore (rank A++): Abraham spent years of his life studying vampires. Their biology, their abilities, their behavior in everything from myth, to documented eyewitness claims,to his own encounters. This has given him a wealth of knowledge and insights into vampires that most scholars could only dream of. Using this ability he can make quick accurate guesses to waht are a vampires powers, strengths and even weaknesses at just a glance.

Overview: Abraham was a Dutch university professor who's son had died at a young age and his wife going mad because of it. At some point in his life he becomes a vampire hunter as a secret career. The crowning moment in his life come when, John Seward an old student of his, calls for his aid when Lucy Westenra, a friend of his, comes down with a strange illness. As Abraham examined Lucy he discovered that she was one of several victims from the attacks of Count Dracula, the most iconic vampire in history and one of the most powerful to walk the earth. Despite their best attempts Lucy dies from the illness and comes back as a vampire, forcing Abraham and Lucy's fiance to destroy her. In response Abraham gathered a group of his companions and chased Dracula to his castle in Transylvania. There they captured and killed the Vampire lord ending the menace.

While Abraham himself remained largely obscure to later generations his connection to Dracula, who's name became synonymous with the term vampire, allowed him to ascend into the throne of heroes.

5/8/2011 #71
Rabe Addler

Himura Kenshin was based on at least two people, the guy your thinking of is also the person they based the wolf of mibu on.

The fact is more people know Kenshin's story, then they do the his source materiel. Kenshin's legend is stronger then the tails told by academics

5/8/2011 #72

I don't think he was allowing manga characters yet.

5/8/2011 #73
Amoral Philosopher

Heroic Spirit: Achilles

Possible Servant Class: Lancer, Saber, Rider

Alighnment: Lawful Good

Strength: A

Endurance: A+

Agility: A+

Mana: B

Luck: D

Noble Phantasm: B+

Class Skills:

Magic Resistance: A

Riding: B

Personal Skills:

Bravery: A+

Invulnerability: A+

Divinity: A

Personal Curse:

Achilles Heel: A+

Noble Phantasms:

Sword of Achilles (Saber/Rider): B

Achilles sword has slain innumerable enemies including the sons and daughters of gods themselves.

Spear of Achilles (Lancer/Rider): B

Achilles' spear was said to be so heavy that no other could wield it.

Shield of Achilles: C+

Achilles' shield was created by the God Hephaestus

Hephaestus' Armor: A+

Golden armor created by the God Hephaestus.

5/8/2011 . Edited 5/8/2011 #74
Amoral Philosopher

If anyone wants to make any suggestions for my profile of Achilles, feel free. He seems overpowered in my opinion, but I based everything off of comparing him with his legend to other heroic spirits on the wiki. Right now the only thing I am really confident in is his class and personal skills ranking. I pulled those from the definitions on the wiki. I guess in Achilles' defense he was the son of a god and one of the greatest warriors of Ancient Greece. I used Hercules as a large frame of reference.

5/8/2011 #75

One problem I have with it is how it doesn't suit the legend. One reason why Herakles was so powerful was because he's the most famous hero of them all. Achilles on the other hand, is famed for weakness.

5/8/2011 #76
Amoral Philosopher

Umm... I think you are mistaken. Achilles was known for his beyond mortal abilities in strength, agility, and endurance. His only "weakness" was his left heel. He was considered the perfect warrior in combat and unable to be beaten. His beyond mortal abilities originate from him being half god. He was completely invincible with the exception of his left heel which was his kill spot. His spear was also said to be so heavy that no other man could wield it. It is true that he was no where near as strong as Hercules, but that is why Hercules has an A+ ranking in strength while Achilles only has an A. As for Endurance and Agility, Achilles' legend in these two areas is actually greater than Hercules'.

5/8/2011 . Edited 5/8/2011 #77

My take on it.

Edit: Maybe this one is better? Woe to however enemies of those who summon him as either Saber or Lancer.

**** **** ****


Possible Servant Class: Lancer, Saber, Rider, Berserker

Alignment: True Neutral

Strength: A (A+ Saber)

Endurance: A (A+ Berserker)

Agility: A+ (A++ Lancer)

Mana: D

Luck: D

Noble Phantasm: B

Class Skills: Magic Resistance A (Saber), Magic Resistance B (Lancer), Riding C (Saber), Riding (Rider) B, Mad Enhancement (Berserker) B

Personal Skills: Bravery A, Instinct B, Divinity E

Noble Phantasms: Glory over Life A++, The Greatest Warrior B

Equipment: Sword, Lance, Shield and Armor of Hephaestus

---- ---- ---- ----

Divinity (E)

According to some legends, Prometheus tricked Zeus into releasing him by telling him that one of his sons would kill him like he did with his own father, other legends says both Zeus and Poseidon where being rivals on a mortal when an oracle prophetized her son would be greater than her father. Thus, he was destined to greatness higher than those of mortal origin but was denied by the Gods. His level of divinity reflects on the faint traces of destiny that was negated to him, and thus Divine Spirits or other such creatures recognize him as an equal, if on lowly standing.

Glory over Life (A++)

Upon receiving the warning of an oracle that of his fate if joining the War of Troy, Achilleus choose glory over a quiete and peaceful life. He fought on the War, killed Hector and died at the end by an poisoned arrow. Thus it was possible to kill him once his invulnerability was shattered by the last vulnerable part of him that spread to his body.

This Noble Phantasm grants a form of invulnerability in the form of 'reversal of destiny'. He can receive grievous harm in battle yet he can continue fighting as if nothing happened, much like the skill battle continuation, but his body would only sustain a set amount of injuries at any single time. If he would receive more damage than this set limit, the world will twist itself trying to correct this contradiction, either by negating the attacking or by making it retroactively miss Achilleus.

The only way to get around this ability is to attack his heels. Once they are sufficiently damaged, the legend of his life will activate and he will be vulnerable again. Once vulnerable, this Noble Phantasm remain inactive until the death of the Servant or the re-summoning of the Heroic Spirit.

The Greatest Warrior (B)

The greatest warrior can't be defeated in a hopeless battle. No matter how strong or skilled the enemy, Achilleus will find a way to defeat his enemy and add him to his own legend as yet another foe that falls from the legendary hero. This Noble Phantasm grants him a great boost in order to defeat an enemy in whichever stats would be more appropriate, or in case the current situation isreallyimpossible, it will create a form of weakness on the enemy that will enable the Heroic Spirit to win. Certain conditions, such as prophecy or sufficiently high Divinity or LUCK can negate this ability completely.

5/8/2011 . Edited 5/8/2011 #78
Amoral Philosopher

For the record, Achilles was half God on his mother's side, hence his divinity being the rank A, the same as Hercules. That is where his beyond mortal abilities came from. I also fail to see how Achilles' strength is less than Saber's with Rin as her master. As for his Endurance, I guess we will simply have to agree to disagree since from the legend's I've read he had near godly levels of endurance which were on the same level as his agility above that of even Hercules. I'm fine with his luck being D since I guess it was pretty unlucky that his mother forgot to make his left heel invulnerable as well. As for Mana, I didn't really have an opinion either way when I came up with the ranking for that. I am also a fan of your "Glory over Life" and "Greatest Warrior", though I feel they would be better classified as personal skills instead of Noble Phantasms.

5/8/2011 #79

@Vindictus/Grimgar Is

In Glory Bound: A+

Though his legend long since outshone their own, Sun Tzu's armies were as fearsome as his own tactical skills. Each handpicked and trained by himself, bound by both duty and glory to their master, even the least man in that company would have been a champion anywhere else. As fearsome a leader as he was an instructor, he could bring out the true potential power in those who he trained. Those trained by Tzu take on aspects of Heroic Spirits, growing faster stronger etc then any mortal man could reach. This effect is more pronounced the longer they train with him.

The type of thing you meant?

5/8/2011 #80

@Amoral Philosopher I went with the legend where his mother was very low on the divinity totem, making Achilleus almost a mortal. On other legends he becomes a half god by taking some ambrosia, so it is kind of difficult to tell. Besides, he was never famous itself by his divinity.

I'd like to say he started as a relatively 'normal' person but managed to survive through things due to his skill and invulnerability, such as him surviving an attack that would certainly kill even Herakles but survives, or an arrow that could even hit the messenger of the gods that somehow 'misses' him. He is still badass, but most of his exploits came from his NP.

Edit: Herakles got Divinity A due to after his death he ascended as the God of Strength on Olympus.

5/8/2011 . Edited 5/8/2011 #81
Amoral Philosopher

Eh, I guess that's the thing with legends, there is almost always more than one version. Hell, King Arthur has quite a few different legends that I know of that Saber could derive her existence from. The legend of Achilles that I know of, his mother was a sea goddess, and from what I've read, is historically one of the earliest deities worshiped in archaic Greece. Overall, I think we can just chalk up our different profiles to the fact that they based on different legends. It's not like anyone is actually planning of putting them in a story.

5/8/2011 #82

Well, I'm new to this whole thing, so let me present something different as well. I'm not sure how this will work but criticisms are appreciated if it makes sense since I have completely no experience with this. ^^

Heroic Spirit: Sun Wukong (The Monkey King from Journey to the West)

Possible Servant Class: Berserker, Lancer, Caster

Alignment: Chaotic Good

Strength: B

Endurance: C+

Agility: A+

Mana: B (A+ when Caster)

Luck: B (C when Caster)

Noble Phantasm: A+

Class Skills: Magic Resistance: B (A if Berserker)

Personal Skills: Instinct: B

Eyes of Golden Fire: A

72 Styles of Transformations: B

Armaments: Ruyi Jingu bang (Ideal Golden-bound Cudgel)

Noble Phantasm: Ruyi Jingu Bang - The legendary Cudgel that was said to measure the oceans and a 'Pillar that pacifies oceans'. The cudgel is said to be nigh indestructible, having come into Sun Wukong possession when he was searching for a weapon worthy of himself. The Golden Cudgel is said to weigh 8.1 tons and can shrink and enlarge at will, an incredibly deadly weapon that Sun Wukong keeps concealed in his ear at all times.

Is said to be able to control the ebb and flow of the oceans tide and with it, Wu Kong defeated the 4 Dragons of the Seas easily.

Abilities: Eyes of Golden fire allows Sun Wukong to see past illusions and mental hindrances that would normally be used to deceive, conceal or disguise one's eyes. Such is his power that very few things can trick his sight, allowing him to perceive things with greater clarity and is practically immune to most forms of concealment magic or illusionary magic. This makes him a deadly opponent against Assassin classes and most Magi.

The 72 Styles of Transformation is from Sun Wukong's training, he is able transform into various objects and animals. However, his fatal flaw is that he can't hide his tail, so extremely observant people can tell if he's in disguise or lying in wait.

Appearance: Sun Wukong appears as a humanoid monkey, standing tall and proud amongst humans. He is most commonly clad in traditional Chinese armour, with a little space at his back to allow his tail movement. Sun Wukong looks remarkably human until you get up close and see his monkeyish face and hair.

Overview: The Great Sage, The Monkey, The Victorious Fighting Buddha; all these are but one of the many titles used to describe one of the most famous Heroes in Chinese Mythologies. Sun Wukong is prominently featured in Journey to the West, where he helps the monk Xuanzang travel to the West with Zhu Bajie and Sha WuJing to retrieve the scriptures.

However, the origins of Sun Wukong originate from a small mountain where he came to life and became the King of Monkeys. Discontent with being a mere mortal, he set out to discover the secrets of Immortality, becoming apprenticed to a Taoist Immortal and acquiring human speech and mannerisms. Such was his tenacity that the Taoist took him in and christened him 'Sun Wukong', literally meaning "Originally a Monkey that became aware of his emptiness in life". Sun Wukong mastered the most difficult of the transformations and his entire body was his weapon, with each hair being able to transform.

Sun Wukong then went on to make a name for himself after the Taoist cast him out for his arrogance, defeating the Dragon Gods of the Sea and descending to Hell to wreck havoc when they tried to collect his soul. Despite Heaven's unhappiness with him, they decided to give him a rank amongst the Gods, albeit the lowest one. But when Sun Wukong found out, such was his rage that he rebelled at proclaimed himself the 'Great Sage, Equal to Heaven'. Heaven decided to try and reign in Sun Wukong but he proved to be so powerful that they decided to let him be and allow his position among the higher ranks.

But a simple party that he was not invited to in the Heaven's chafed at the Monkey's Pride and he once again went berserk, stealing three of Heaven's treasures and in the end, he fought the entire celestial army to a standstill. Eventually, however, he was defeated through a mixture of teamwork and the aid of many of the greatest deities. However, even then he could not be executed and was subject to a powerful cauldron of sacred fire to distill him into an elixir. But not only did Wukong not die, he instead gained a new power, the Golden Fire Eyes.

He then proceeds to completely defeat the Heavenly Forces. However, the Heavenly Court appealed to Buddha for aid and Wukong was finally defeated and sealed in a mountain, where he would remain until Xuanzang freed him.

As a servant, Sun Wukong is an incredible fighter, being able to match many outstanding fighters in close combat. Even his magical powers are first-class, having mastered the 72 transformations and being able to use his body hair as weapons. As such, Sun Wukong is very restrained when he is allotted a class that constrains his other abilities, sometimes making him mistake his effectiveness in certain situations.

Sun Wukong is a combat pragmatist but he is usually so overwhelming in combat that few can actually match up to him in a straight on fight. When he goes berserk, Sun Wukong is nigh unstoppable.

This is probably very bad, so can I request for someone to help me polish it up and do some nerfs? His legends do have him being so powerful that he was literally unstoppable but I'm sure someone else can help me make him balanced enough to be accepted. Thanks in advance. ^^

5/8/2011 #83

Edit: Nezha/Nataku

5/8/2011 . Edited 5/8/2011 #84
Soup Fish

AH! someone made Achilles! :) that makes me both very happy and a little jealous. On one hand I think that the first profile was a little to hing and the second a little to low. Also Achillies is admitadly a dificult hero to make a profile for. Unless I am mistaken the only things that would really qualify for his NP's would be his golden Armor his spear and his invulnerability, two of which are sort of redundant.

I think I will post my own later but for now I need to read the new In flight chapter. :)

I am definitely for A in all the three major physical attributes, he was a warrior that I dont think even Lancalot could have defeated. Possibly the greatest warrior of all time ever period. I think we will need to make some good sounding names for his equipment. Above all He needs to be powerful.

5/8/2011 #85

"@Vindictus/Grimgar Is

In Glory Bound: A+

Though his legend long since outshone their own, Sun Tzu's armies were as fearsome as his own tactical skills. Each handpicked and trained by himself, bound by both duty and glory to their master, even the least man in that company would have been a champion anywhere else. As fearsome a leader as he was an instructor, he could bring out the true potential power in those who he trained. Those trained by Tzu take on aspects of Heroic Spirits, growing faster stronger etc then any mortal man could reach. This effect is more pronounced the longer they train with him.

The type of thing you meant?"

Yes. That is exactly the type of thing I meant.

And you gave it a cool name too! ^_^

5/8/2011 . Edited 5/8/2011 #86
Soup Fish

I must say, that is a very good description, with a very good name. I would love to see a fic based of of him.

5/8/2011 #87

The problem with the Arthurian legend is that apparently Nasu like it very much, enough to give the King the most powerful Holy Sword ever made of a material that is a miracle on itself, and the ultimate don't-touch-me protection, alongside with giving her very high overall stats.

5/8/2011 #88
Amoral Philosopher

The thing with my stats from Achilles is that I based them off of terms of relativity in comparison to other Heroic spirits such as Hercules, Arturia, and others. I did not base his stats on absoluter terms. I feel that many cannon heroic spirits' stats are also too high in some areas, so I decided to up Ahcilles' stats in some areas. I my opinion Achilles is just as agile and has just as much endurance as Hercules, if not more so, which is the cause for his A+ ranking in both since Hercules had an A. Achilles is definitely not as strong as Hercules, but I felt he was at least as strong or stronger than Arturia, hence the A ranking which is lower than Hercules' A+, but equal or higher than Arturia's depending on who her master is. For Mana, I figured Achilles warranted a B since he was half god and Hercules got an A. I gave him a ranking of D in luck since, as I've said before, it was rather horrible luck that his mother made his entire body invincible, but forgot to do so to his left heel as well.

For Achilles' class skills I gave him an A in magic resistance since it somewhat correlates with his invincibility with the exception of his heel. I gave him a B for riding since he was a known for his skills on the chariot.

For Achilles' personal skills, he got an A+ for bravery since that was what Hercules had and I considered the two of them on equal grounds for that. You pretty much have to be incredibly brave to do some of the things Achilles did during his lifetime. As for his Divinity, I gave him an A for being half god on his mothers side, which is less than Gilgamesh's A+ for being 2/3 god, but equal to Hercules' A for being 1/2 god. Then of course, I gave him Invulerability A+ which is obvious (would have given him an A++, but his heel kept it at A+).

I also decided to explicitly list Achilles heel A+ as a personal curse since I felt it was important to note, but couldn't actually be called a skill.

Finally, for his noble phantasms, I gave his Armor an A+ since it was created by the blacksmith of the god's themselves, though it could be considered slightly redundant due to his invulnerability (I guess he doesn't have to worry about his clothes being torn). His shield got to be a noble phantasm since it is actually the most famous of all his possessions, though it is mostly due to its appearance more than any special ability it had, hence the C+ ranking. His spear and sword both got a B since the sword was famous for killing so many people, including demi gods, and his spear was so heavy that it was only capable of being wielded by him.

This is my complete reasoning behind each stat I gave. I don't really have anymore I can say, so I leave it at that. Believe me when I say that I spent a decent amount of time putting that profile together through knowledge I already had of Achilles, researching his legend further, and comparing things to the wiki.

5/8/2011 . Edited 5/8/2011 #89

His weapons are part of his legend yes, but in the grand scheme of NP they were quite ordinary, just weapons that became famous for being associated with him. Differently from Excalibur who had whole sections of legends dedicated to it, or Gae Bolg who was made from a sea monster and had the curse of barbed dead.

Maybe he could get his Achilleous hell as a personal skill/curse just like Diamurd got his mystic face, but his weakness is intimately associated with his invulnerability, so I left it out.

His bravery is only A because it is really difficult to be that brave when you are invulnerable.

As for divinity, it could be either B (same as Cu Chulain) or something like Divinity E (B) to show how dissident is his legend on how he became invulnerable and ancestry. Herakles only had the problem to know if he ascended after death or not.

5/8/2011 #90
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