Thor Fan fiction
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The Pearl Maiden

Hello everybody!

I have a question that I'd like to ask the general Thor FFN population: Do you think Loki was truly being sincere when he told Sif and the Warriors Three he didn't know Thor would get banished for going to Jotunheim?

Here are some of my thoughts: I don't think Loki was lying. Despite the fact that after Thor's outburst, Loki seems to be encouraging Thor's rebellious attitude ("I think you're right. If the Frost Giants have found a way into Asgard, who's to say they won't do it again," etc), his reaction when Thor suggests going to Jotunheim seems believable. Also, when they actually get to Jotunheim, Loki tries to talk Thor out of it. On top ofthat, when they get back to Asgard after Odin fetches them, Loki tries to explain something to Odin, but the All-Father cuts him off and promptly banishes Thor. (Did anybody pay attention to Loki's face during that scene? He seemed shocked).

So, in short, here's my question: Did Loki mean to get Thor banished?

11/10/2011 . Edited 7/8/2012 #1
Tapion the third

Here is what I think. I think Loki hoped that Thor would be banished.I think that after the frost giant incident and they saw how angry it made Thor, Loki could have decided to use it to his advantage. If he did not want Thor to attack Jotunheim, Loki would never even have spoken about it after the coronation. When he said that Thor could not do anything that would defied their father, I think it he was trying to give Thor the idea of attacking, without anyone even noticing.He was trying to trick Thor with his words. He knew how stubborn his brother was and that Thor would most likely jumps at the opportunity to attack the frost giants. He also knew how very angry it would make Odin.He pretended to try to talk Thor out of it, with truth he suggest that they invade Jotunheim. I think he counted on Odin banishing Thor, so he could carry out his plan. So I think the whole fight with the frost giants was maybe a setup.A setup to get Thor into trouble. This is my theory. I hope it sounds realistic. I could be wrong.

11/11/2011 #2
The Pearl Maiden
Hmm. I see your point. In fact, I have thought along those same similar lines; however I always end up asking myself this question: Could Loki have truly, *truly* planned that far ahead? Not to say he couldn't, but it seems against his character. I mean, Loki seems like the type who is extremely calculating and a deep thinker. To me, it seems a bit unrealistic to plan that Thor falls into his plan to go to Jotunheim, then, according to plan, single-handly starts a war, then conviently Odin shows up just in the nick of time to save them, THEN Odin gets angry (predictably) and banishes Thor. It seems like too many variables to me...I think Loki was trying to get Thor in trouble, but it seems hard to believe he actually, specifically planned to get Thor *banished*...
11/11/2011 #3
Temperley

I don't think Loki thought as far ahead to get Thor banished, but I do think he purposely goaded his brother with the suggestion that the only way to solve the issue of the frost giants entering Asgard lay in defying Odin.

Thor decided to go to Jotenheim in his own and roped in his friends - who should have tried to stop him. Loki tried to stop them all by sending a guard to Odin and perhaps he even meant to stall as he began to speak to Heimdall. In the Bifrost chamber, everyone but Thor looks really nervous about taking the "fight" to the frost giants.

On the planet, again Loki tries to turn Thor back without causing a scene. Loki may like causing mischief, but I doubt he would purposely put himself in danger. Here, they are still dear brothers and Loki has followed up until this time because Thor leads the way. Loki acts like the little brother he is.

When they return to Asgard, Loki is confused about his revealed parentage, and we may never really know what he meant to say before Odin silenced him - but (and I come back to the point again, finally!) I don't think Loki meant for Thor to be banished.

I think the look on his face was that of complete shock - how could Odin to that to his first child? His son that was only a few hours (I assume) earlier set to ascend to the throne? But we also get clues as to how fast Loki's mind works because by time we see him again, and he turns back from the opening of the Bifrost, his face reveals *nothing.* His expression is closed.

In the healing chamber with the Warriors 3 and Sif, he admits to sending the guard to Odin, as well as saying he loves Thor (truth), but also countering by asking if Thor's headstrong behavior is well suited for kingship - this is a clue (IMHO) of the start of him wondering if he could take Thor's place as a better ruler of Asgard.

I could go on and on, but suffice it to say:No, Loki did not intend for Thor to be banished, but Yes, he completely took advantage of the events that followed.

We, the audience, know that Loki is a trickster, but we have yet to see the full mayhem of his skill at scheming. "Thor" was just a taste. "Avengers" will be the main course. Another reason why I don't think he meant for his brother to be banished - he's just not devious enough for that yet, but he's made a HUGE start. (This reply ended up being longer than I thought!)

11/11/2011 . Edited 11/12/2011 #4
The Pearl Maiden

I completely agree with you Temperley. I was thinking the exact same things...only I was bit too lazy to write it out. lol.

Loki seems to have advantage of the situation (Thor's banishment, the Odinsleep: Both of which were not his fault). And seriously, who wouldn't? Loki was next in line for the throne anyway. [If you any of you haven't seen already, I'd go to YT and search "Loki becomes king" It's a deleted scene that shows Loki's "honesty" in regards to him not wanting to be king...]

11/12/2011 #5
Temperley

Absolutely! The deleted scenes are one of the first things I watched when I bought my DVD. :)

Loki is so... startled and confused, just before he accepts Gungnir, but after F*** tells him to make Odin proud, he turns to face her, and ALREADY you can tell he's forming another plan.

Love when an actor can express those details without saying a word.

11/12/2011 #6
The Pearl Maiden
Yes! And the little eyebrow-forehead wrinkle thing about sent me into a fit of extreme fangirlism... ;) But, back on topic: Yes, Loki is a conniving little brother just wanting to get big brother in trouble. BUT, did he mean to get Thor banished. I think not. Did he mean to ascend the throne? No. But, the opportunity presented itself and he would be a fool to reject it. Besides, he didn't really have a choice in the matter. He *was* next in line. All these points suggest that he wasn't really the villian. Even though as king, he had the power to bring Thor back, he had a vaild point when he said "My first command cannot be to undo the All-Father's last." Sif and the Warriors Three probably saw that as Loki reacting out of jealousy, but it could also be said that Sif and the others were reacting out of mistrust and emotion. Even Heimdall reacted similarily! I guess the point I'm trying to get to is this: Loki wasn't the "bad guy". Sure, he tried to destroy Jotunheim, but honestly. After a little punishment and a few decades, who's to say that anybody would *care* about the Frost Giants? Letting them into in the first place was a cruel little prank, but everybody knows Loki has a bit of a mean streak. I didn't see Odin or F*** attempt to raise him otherwise... Anyways, I'm rambling...
11/12/2011 #7
Tapion the third

I too agree, Temperley. Your theory makes allot more sense than mine . Now why didn't I think of it? :)

11/12/2011 #8
Temperley

YESYESYES. It's all in the unspoken details.

What people need to remember is that Loki plays pranks on a god-like scale. And though they may seem malicious in this film, we ain't seen nuthin' yet.

I can't recall who said it in which interview, but it's the perfect way to describe these characters and the journey they go through in"Thor"- we begin to see the hero Thor can be, and the start of the villan Loki will become. :)

11/12/2011 . Edited 11/12/2011 #9
Tapion the third

So The Pearl Maiden, what you're trying to say is that Loki is actually just misunderstood? Based on his reaction in the movie, and what I know of his charackter, I'll say that would be very obvious. Just remember jealously towards Thor wasn't the only thing that drove Loki to do what he did. The guy had been living a lie his whole life. Odin never told him about been a frost giant.

11/12/2011 #10
The Pearl Maiden

Yes, I would say that Loki is misunderstood to some extent. And yes, you're right. Jealously wasn't his only motivation, though I think that jealousy and the need to be loved and noticed were certainly huge motivations. YES! Odin *did* lie to him, his entire life in fact. So, in Loki's mind, it was only logical to presume that because he never felt the love he believed Thor was constantly receiving, he attributed it to him being a Jotun.

Aside from Loki's deep emotional wounds (and the fact he's my favorite character in the film:), however, Loki is his own person. He has to make choices. And while I think his choices (as seen in the movie) are in one way or another explainable, who knows what he might do in the Avengers now that he's been completely rejected (in his mind) by Odin. (Talk about the wrong time to tell your adopted son "No"; *facepalms* Way to go Odin!)

11/12/2011 #11
Tapion the third

I can't wait for Avengers to come out. Loki is also my favorite character.

11/12/2011 #12
willshakespeare-immortalbard

I don't think that Loki meant for Thor to get banished. His reaction when Thor decided to go to Jotunheim was way too genuine to be faked, and after a rewatch of the Thor movie, I'm 99.9% positive that, after Thor is thrust into the Bifrost stream, when you see Loki, there is a tear running down his face. I believe that Loki was telling the truth when he said he hadn't meant for Thor to be banished.

11/14/2011 #13
Pliffy

Like everyone else said. At the start Loki was tricky. And jealous of Thor. However he was not evil. So I think going to Jotunheim. Was just him trying to get Thor in to trouble. However he had no idea that Odin would banished him. Though I think after he found out. He was a Faust Giant. That is when he started to become a villain.

Of Topic:Okay I know Odin lied about Loki. Though I think that Odin taught it was the best. I mean growing up when everyone knows. Your the son of the enemy. I wouldn't think everybody. Would treat him nice. Just cuz he happened to be a Faust Giant. And plus a lot of adopted parnets. Never really want to tell them the truth. You know not sure how they would take it. And they may end up thinking. That they didn't love them or something. Even F*** said. That he never told him Cuz he didn't want Loki to feel different. Also I don't think Odin or F*** favored any of his sons. Anyway I think when Odin said"Your my son I loved you" and the no when Loki killed himself(so they think) seemed genuine. Okay now it looks like I gotten in a long rant on Loki and Odin. O.o

P.S:The Pearl Maiden actually Loki will became more of villain in the avengers in. Tom Hiddleston own words "How pleasant an experience is it to disappear into a wormhole that was created by some super-nuclear explosion of his own making? I think by the time Loki shows up he's seen a few things and has bigger things in mind than just his brother and Asgard..." and "I can tell you that it's all of them against me. I am the super villain. So it's Iron Man, the Incredible Hulk, Captain America, Thor, Hawkeye, Black Widow and Nick Fury forming a team because I've got so bad a**." and plus had you seen the avengers trailer? Granted Loki's role in the trailer was small. But you can still see how much he had changed.

trailer:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOrNdBpGMv8&hd=1

11/17/2011 #14
The Pearl Maiden

Willshakespeare-immortalbard: I saw those tears too! Such a powerful clip! It was a deep look into his character. It makes one wonder what he was thinking.

Dalekgirl: Yes! I am aware of Loki's "badness" in the Avengers movie...I guess until I see the extent of Loki's villainy, I still believe he was more of a victim than a villain.

12/24/2011 #15
The Pearl Maiden

I can't wait either! :)

12/24/2011 #16
The Pearl Maiden

For the Avengers movie, I mean. :)

12/24/2011 #17
Arya Daeriel

I think..... that he didn't mean for Thor to get banished. I always got the feeling that the whole setup was just to show Odin that Thor wasn't ready for the throne. He didn't expect Thor to get banished, just for Odin to see that he wasn't ready and knock some sense into him. The way he acted as Thor was getting tossed out of Asgard seemed to real to be faked. He seemed genuinely shocked (and looked rather broken in my opinion) when Thor was banished. I also got the feeling that when Loki was attempting to talk to Odin, probably once he realized what was going to happen, he was going to shift the blame to himself and tell Odin that he had goaded Thor into going to Jotunheim.

It's kind of odd.... if you look at the movie, and what Loki does, everything seems to be what he believes is for the good of Asgard. He attempts to get Thor in trouble to show he isn't ready for the throne and really rightly so. He does all he can to keep Thor on Earth because in his eyes he is protecting Asgard from an unfit king. He kills Laufey and attempts to destroy Jotunheim, thus destroying the impending threat of war. He is a Well Intentioned Extremist is that regard.

But what you think really depends upon how you view Loki. A sympathetic villain who wants nothing more than to step out from his brother's shadow and to be viewed as an equal to Thor by Odin and has the good of Asgard as the answer to his actions.... or a trickster in it's best form that manipulates even the audience into believing that he is not truly evil.

I prefer to see him as the former, obviously, but it really does depend upon your point of view.

1/5/2012 #18
TailsLovesCosmo

Unless they intend to leave Loki extremely OOC he should become totally evil in later films, if more are made. Otherwise he's not Loki, he's an OC using Loki's name.

4/16/2012 #19
ninepen

Ok, this question was asked over six months ago, but I can't resist throwing in my two cents because it's so important to the character of Loki and something I've thought a lot about myself since I'm pretty much obsessed with knowing what Loki is thinking at every single moment in the movie (oh, to sit down with Hiddleston for a few hours and ask!).

I have become 100% convinced Loki did not intend for Thor to be banished. For one thing, I agree with comments above that there's no way Loki could have guessed all the little things that happened that led to that. (1) Loki ratted the group out before they left so they wouldn't make it to Jotunheim in the first place (he says so and he could be lying, but we see him talk to a guard in a deleted scene). (2) Loki keeps trying to convince Heimdall it's not at all what Heimdall knows full well it is they're up to...and Loki's smart enough to know he isn't actually going to convince him. I call that stalling, which fails when Thor takes over and goes for the direct approach AKA the Thor approach. (3) The script may be non-canon really at this point since many changes were made, but you can find it online, and there's a scene where they first arrive on Jotunheim and Thor wants to advance but Loki wants to hold back and do reconnaissance. He is again stalling, wanting them to be caught before things escalate. (4) Loki pretty sincerely tries to get them safely out of Jotunheim, he certainly couldn't have predicted that Laufey would make some playground taunt at Thor just as they were leaving.

To me this all says that Loki wanted to use his cleverness and manipulation to maneuver Thor into something Loki knew would get him into deep trouble with Odin and hopefully expose his arrogance and irresponsibility...but he never meant for it to go that far. Loki thinks ahead and Thor doesn't. Laufey said he knew what Thor would be unleashing; I suspect Loki did as well and desperately wanted to prevent it from reaching that point. To me it's a prime example of stuff just spiraling out of control. Also, although it's impossible to be certain from the movie itself, I'm personally convinced that Loki was going to try to stick up for Thor in the banishment scene, perhaps even take responsibility, before Odin gives him that roar. (It would make me shut up too.)

I think Loki takes advantage of opportunities...and while I agree in particular with Pearl Maiden and Temperley above, I wouldn't go so far as to say he's not the "bad guy." I think he's a bit...unconcerned...over the negative impact his choices can have on others, which only becomes magnified over the course of the movie and eventually does take him into "bad guy" territory. Letting Laufey in? That's getting there, he's gone from somewhat misguided to seriously misguided. Sending the Destroyer to kill Thor? Yup, that's bad guy territory. I'm not saying I don't think he's conflicted or I don't see where this all comes from, just that I'm not so willing to let him the hook for what he did. Anyway, my two cents born of countless hours of fuelling this weird but fun obsession.

And wait...*tears* on Loki's face in the banishment scene????? ::runs off to watch that scene for 43rd time::

7/7/2012 #20
Python1984

I know this is probably and old topic but I had to have my say too.

I without a doubt believe that Loki NEVER intended for Thor to be banished either.

Remember in the scene where Thor announced that they were going to Jotunheim? Loki put his hand to his forehead and sighed in an exasperated way. Looked to me like he had no idea that Thor would suddenly want to storm into Jotunheim. He also tried to convince Thor to back down when Laufey told them to leave. Not to mention he tried to intervene to Odin on Thor's behalf.

He also admitted to Laufey that leading the Frost Giants into Asgard during Thor's coronation ceremony was "Just a bit of fun" So everything really sounded like some mischief gone very wrong.

So that being said. I dont think Loki really wanted to hurt his brother.

7/15/2012 #21
Sekhem

One thing I think we need to keep in mind about Loki is that he is basically the ultimate con artist. And that he was probably running at least half a dozen cons over the course of the movie. He wanted to get Thor into trouble - maybe even prove that he wasn't worthy of the throne - and he may have thought that banishment was a slight possibility, but not one he considered very likely. Remember, he told a guard where he and Thor and their friends were going, and he tried to stall when Heimdall wouldn't let them through. That implies that he wanted an audience for part of what was to come, at least. That it turned into a rescue mission would just further prove his point.

Another question to keep in mind is whether Loki was telling the truth when he said he never wanted the throne. Considering this came out in the heat of battle, I'm inclined to think he was telling the truth. Basically, it all comes down to his motivations and his goals, which started out murky at best and became even less clear as the story went on. There's a reason why Loki is and always has been one of the most complicated characters in the tales of the Norse gods, and that's it in a nutshell. We know what he did, but the why just isn't there.

Yet another question to ask is, what would have happened if Loki hadn't found out he was adopted, which, I think, is the point where Loki really started to go off the rails. Everything that happened after he found out stems from the point where he confronted Odin about who and what he really was. His taking the throne would have happened regardless considering Odin's collapse - which, I think, genuinely scared Loki when it happened - but everything he did after that, from letting Laufey into Asgard to sending the Destroyer after his brother to his attempted suicide, was colored by that.

One final question, and one I hope gets answered in Thor 2, or the Avengers 2, is what the hell happened to Loki during the time between his fall from the Bifrost and his turning up at that SHIELD base in the Avengers movie. Pulling a fast one on the major players on Midgard was more his style, rather than showing up with an army intent on conquering the world, so it's probably safe to assume that either he went as crazy as a bag of cats or he himself was being manipulated on some level.

Any thoughts?

3/25/2013 #22
TailsLovesCosmo

Loki did show up with an army once in the comics and try to take over the world. It ended with Thor beating him up. So he'd know from that experience that trying it again probably wouldn't work out so well for him. Did he want Thor to be banished or to gain the throne? Doesn't matter whether he planned those things or not, he'd consider them unexpected bonuses.

4/21/2013 #23
Sekhem

Should we consider the comics to be canon in the movie-verse? Or is it a separate continuity?

5/17/2013 #24
ninepen

I think the ability to pick and choose whatever one likes from within the movies, the comics, and mythology is part of the allure of these characters and this "universe," however one defines it, for a lot of fans. But in terms of continuity, not even the comics follow the same continuity internally, as I understand it (mostly second-hand knowledge admittedly), including Loki's origins story. So in my opinion, the only way to come to a coherent answer to questions like this, dealing with a question of why movie-Loki did X, Y, or Z, is to stick with movie-facts. On the other hand, movie-Loki is certainly hugely informed by comics Loki, so I can understand someone coming to a different conclusion on whether or not the comics can help answer the question.

5/17/2013 #25
Ameban

I agree with Ninepen here.

Yes, the movies are based on the comics, which are based on the Norse myths (although there is a HUGE gap between them and the comics). Besides that, comics have dozens of continuities: classic comics back '70s hardly have something to do with current "Kid!Loki" comics, for example. Let's say comic writers take the characters and context and they re-write the story in each continuity. It usually happens in Marvel's franchise. (I also am a Transfan and I can tell there are more than 50 comic continuities, Cartoon series, animes and manga, and all they are heavy different from each other).

Therefore, comics events "may" explain some events in the movies, but Movies are a specific continuity by themselves. If you want to explain this or that in the movies, the only real-canon references we have are the movies themselves.

Back to the original question. Yes, I don't believe Loki actually predicted Thor would be banished after what happened. He was really anxious about the trip to Jötnar's home: he tried to stop Thor, he warned the guards, he also tried to talk with Heimdall, and in the script, he's certainly uneasy about what they could find in Jötunheim, and finally he tried a peaceful retreat from there before his real dad called "little princess" to his brother.

However, I also think he felt uneasy because he could be found out as the guy that gave the clues about how to enter in Asgard to the Jötnar. Somebody could say "Hey! You're the traitor to Asgard that taught us how to reach the Casket!"

In the discussion that followed those events, it seems Thor arguing with Odin isn't something usual, perhaps it's another reason Odin had to be so disappointed with his elder son. At this point, Loki seems be quite nervous, even hyperventilating before taking the step to enter in the arguing… and being rejected by his dad's roar. Id' say even if Odin did so, the Allfather himself didn't expect Loki had something to do with this.

Loki thrust too much in his own skills and intelligence. In that sense, he's pretty much like Thor: both have a high mind about their respective skills and tend to think other people are just lower than them. Loki was just acting smart… which those consequences.

5/18/2013 #26
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